CC: breaking your child's will...

[Parrothead]

Excellent point. It is so easy to get duped into the idea of spanking your kids into cheerful FTO. It shouldn't be, but it is. It is so the opposite of who Jesus was and is to us. I'm really thankful for people on these boards, whether believers or not, who have taught me there are other, better methods besides spanking. I doubt my dd will ever even get a spanking. However, that does not mean she will be ruined or poorly behaved.

 

I will stop rambling now. :)

:iagree:It is so sad that so many parents fall into this. There are so many other methods parents can use that work, and work well. Like I said in my first post on this thread, I believe in cheerful first time obedience. I believe spanking has its place. Parents should not go to that place every single day several times a day.

 

Modeling behavior over and over again to reinforce what is expected, judicious use of time out or nose to the corner or what ever it is called in your family, redirection over and over again to reinforce what is expected. It is a lot of work but so worth the work.

 

Dd hasn't been spanked in a few years. She can tell by tone if what I tell her to do is an emergency or if it is something that she can ask for a minute or two to finish a chapter, level, or turn. I have no problem giving her a moment. She knows that adults question the actions and requests of other adults. I model if for her often enough.;) So she knows there is a time for questioning authority. She also knows that if I use the tone and say something like, "I need a band-aid right now," she knows to go get the band-aid immediately. Not come meandering in and say something like, "Oh, did you cut yourself?" And when she brings the band-aid to me she will be ready and willing to help in any way possible. Not whining about how she was interrupted or does not want to assist.

 

She goes places like Sunday school, outside lessons, friends' house, etc. I'm always complimented on how well behaved she is. Would it surprise you to know this is the same person who when two laughed at me when she got her butt popped?

Edited November 5, 2010 by Parrothead

[NanceXToo]

I do not really meet the criteria you laid out in your OP but as a Christian and a mom I felt a strong urge to respond anyway. I believe the way you are responding to your child is not healthy and not even biblical. I have heard the 'spare the rod' argument 1000 times and I think it just may be the verse that is taken out of context more than any other. Jesus often told parables and used metaphors, why is this never considered for the 'spare the rod' verse? I believe we are being told not to spare the 'rod' of discipline not a literal rod. I cannot fathom Jesus ever condoning whipping of a child. After all 'Jesus loves the little children".

 

I know I'm not a Christian, but I did spend two years living in a Methodist foster home, during which time I went with that family to church, attended Youth Group, and although it was many years ago, I did read the bible from cover to cover. So I'm not TOTALLY ignorant. And... I agree with you. I think the phrase "the rod" means more of a shephard's rod and refers to guidance, not beatings. Many religious leaders WITHIN the Christian community will say the same thing.

 

I cringe every time I see/hear/read someone say "spanking is biblical"- if you want to look at it that way, so is stoning someone to death and a bunch of other things that would be totally unacceptable in today's society.

 

The bottom line is, violence is wrong. It's illegal to go hit an adult out in the street. It's illegal for a man to beat his wife. Aside from hitting being illegal in most cases- it's also immoral. I mean, who teaches their kids to hit people? Nobody! Any good parent teaches their children "Don't hit. Hitting is wrong."

 

Hitting. People. Is. Wrong.

 

(and pssst...children are people, too)!

 

So why is illegal for a man to slap his wife, or for someone to go smack a stranger in the bar, or slap their neighbor over a dispute- those things are assault. You can get arrested for that.

 

But taking the smallest, and weakest, and most defenseless among us, the children, and hitting THEM...and that IS legal? That's kind of mind-boggling. And disturbing. And to do it in the name of religion is somehow even more so. And it doesn't exactly model to them that "hitting is wrong."

 

It models to them that hitting is okay. That hurting people smaller and weaker than you is okay. That hitting is tied in with love. That authority must be unquestioningly obeyed or you might get hurt.

 

My father abandoned us when I was ten years old. I've never seen him since. And I still vividly recall the few times (it didn't even happen often) that he spanked me with a belt, and it makes me feel queasy to my stomach just thinking about it nearly 30 years later. It was painful, it was unnecessary (there are other ways to go about disciplining a kid), it was a horrible indignity to have to suffer, and it was wrong. No two ways about it.

Edited November 5, 2010 by NanceXToo

[Joanne]

And I give God the glory because our applying his wisdom and being faithful to follow His commands in this area of lovingly “spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet†is bearing beautiful fruit.

 

I have been studying parenting and (Christian) scripture for 15 years and teaching parenting. I've learned a few years ago to not get into the spanking = abuse, spanking is evil, not spanking is permissive debate.

 

I do have to say, however, that the (Christian) bible does not, in any translation or form say that "spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet" is God's suggestion or command for parenting.

 

The "rod verses" are clear if read and construed literally - beat your child with a stick. The rest of the stuff that gets loaded into Christian parenting books about praying before and after, making sure they know why, lovingly and not in anger swatting the clothed bottom is *extra*biblical. It's imposed onto (Christian) scripture but does not emerge from the actual reading of it.

 

Do what you want with your kids and your discipline choices, but don't try to defend them with bad exegisis, or worse, someone else's parenting ideas based on something you haven't read, researched or prayed about yourself.

 

God may have told you to lovingly swat their bottoms to create a sweet heart - but He didn't do it in the Christian bible.

[Jenn in Mo]

 

Sorry this was your experience.

 

My parents’ profound love and devotion to us and to one another was so manifest in our home that I can’t identify with ever feeling ANY shred of anger or resentment to my folks. And we were expected to obey their commands (which were quite reasonable) the first time they said them and we weren't allowed to whine or complain. As we got older there was a reasonable "appeal process" that we could do respectfully to understand why they asked such and such, but -- as children -- we weren't allowed to ask "why" until we had done the thing/obeyed. And they were fair and reasonable, they didn't exasperate us with inappropriate commands. We felt things were very just and fair.

 

I have NOT one memory of feeling a sense of anger or injustly treated or that they were ever once over the top in any disciplining moment.

 

They were such kind, loving and respectful people. They had LONG established a foundation of love and trust on which to begin their disciplining of us. Their love and concern for us was apparent and we felt safe and secure and very happy in it. We felt loved and respected even while receiving our discipline. It was always fair and controlled (never given in anger). Everything they did for us was from a spirit of love – discipline and all; we knew it was fair and for our good.

 

My siblings and I got along beautifully with them and, even in our teen years, we loved being with our parents. We think the world of them to this day and have a great relationship.

 

Even among my many friends (and my spouse) whose parents used corporal discipline, I can’t think of one of us who feel anything but love and gratitude for our folks and none of us feel that getting spankings derailed our love and trust relationship in the least.

 

I don’t know what all the dynamic was in your home, or what kind of love/trust/respect dynamic there was, but if a parent simply angrily spanks a child without this foundation, then this parent is NOT disciplining according to the Bible’s standards.

The Bible doesn’t isolate disciplining from its bazillion references to loving one another more than ourselves. Again, I don’t know what kind of respect or trust your mom earned from you and your siblings, but I spoke from my experience.

 

We use corporal punishment in our home now and my husband and I have great relationships with our kids; they are obedient, compliant and happy kiddos from my vantage point and from on-lookers too as I hear praise from others on this front quite frequently.

 

And I give God the glory because our applying his wisdom and being faithful to follow His commands in this area of lovingly “spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet†is bearing beautiful fruit.

 

Thank you for sharing this. Beautifully put. Spanking does not mean angry home. It can, but a non-spanking home can be angry as well. I have used spanking, but that doesn't mean we're a 'spanking home'. We're a happy home, with happy children in whom I delight every day. Thank you for describing a good example of this kind of upbringing.

[Jenn in Mo]

Why not rise above the cycle of abuse, why not use God and all his glory to parent your child without spanking. Can you do that? Are you strong enough? Brave enough? Godly enough to at least try and not abuse your child?

 

That was just mean.

 

Discipline done in love does not equate abuse. It takes bravery to parent. It takes real love to dedicate your life to raising them well. She's parenting like she means it...like it's the most important part of her life. Because it is. Her method might not be your method, but it does not mean she is lacking in bravery, strength, or Godliness. She's not lacking in grace or manners either. I'm lacking in both today, so I'll happily point out that this was plain hateful.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Jenn in Mo

[elegantlion]

My husband and I were not in the no spanking camp when ds was younger. However, I can count on one hand the number of times we felt forced to spank our child. He's a strong willed individual, the son of two strong willed individuals. We have even practiced first time obedience, but not with the threat of a spanking.

 

three year olds are wonderful things. They are learning and discovering and learning to push boundaries and our buttons. Most of the time what we saw in our child were not godless traits of a sinner, we saw a properly developing three year old. When we were exasperated and driven to anger, irritation, or just at the end of our ropes we removed ourselves from the child. I believe it takes a team to parent a three year old. When appropriate we discussed those boundaries and reinforced them by removing him from a situation, guiding him through an event (like proper playing and proper hygiene), and connecting with him at his level (understanding and physical level).

 

There were many days I gladly handed over the parenting reins to dh so I could pull myself together, but I'm the adult. Most of the times I felt like spanking it was because *I* was overwhelmed and needed a break. *He* was just being three.

 

Time out became our discipline choice. It was many times as much for me as it was for him.

 

Dh and I are both short-fused and as ds becomes a teen we're working on giving him coping tools to deal with short bursts of anger, thankfully they've been few. For now it's remove yourself from the situation, go do something else, and chill out. I would never teach a teen to lash out physically in his anger and frustration, to strike someone else, that would be ludicrous right? Again many of the times I felt my child needed a spanking were when *I* was at the end of my rope, it was my anger and frustration. If I'm teaching my teen not to strike out in anger, why would it be acceptable for me when directed at a toddler.

[justamouse]

 

And I give God the glory because our applying his wisdom and being faithful to follow His commands in this area of lovingly “spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet” is bearing beautiful fruit.

 

Well, I do none of that. I can't remember the last time I spanked my child and they're still sweet, they still obey and they love God. None of that was coerced. They obey, most of the time within the first time that I ask. None of that was spanked in, so please don't imply that spanking is the only Godly way to raise children. And don't use the Bible or God as an excuse for spanking.

 

Raising wonderful children comes from being a connected, engaged parent, and if you are, then you should have no problems letting go of spanking as a control tool.

 

Mercy and grace is bearing its fruit in my house.

[lionfamily1999]

I am also impressed by your grace under fire. It is admirable that you have been able to read some of these replies and not fire back.

:iagree:

yes, thank you

You probably missed my post... I'm not really surprised. Suffice it to say that my sibs and I were spanked by our parents. My dad will tell you he believes in God and he hates Him all the same. My mom will say she's a lapsed Christian.

 

I don't hate my parents. As of yet, none of us have landed in therapy, group homes, or on the streets. We all have well behaved kids that we love.

 

I agree with the posters that said spanking is not the only way to discipline. I agree with the posters that said every time she disobeys is not necessarily a reason for a spanking, and I agree that spanking is a valid disciplinary measure.

 

Just remember, three is very little and is known for HUGE issues with behavior. There's something about three that makes little ones find all the boundaries and test them... at least a million times. You have a long time to raise this little one, don't worry too much about spoiling her just yet. Some things are harder to learn than others, and often what she will really need is your presence and verbal guidance throughout the process.

 

:grouphug:

[texasmama]

I couldn't wade through all of the replies, but here is my two cents worth, boiled down very simply.

 

I hear you calling her "over emotional" and stating that you don't understand this and it bothers you because you are not this way - instead you are very logical. Perhaps reframe this freely emotional personality as the way God made her. There are many "over emotional" people on the planet, created exactly this way by God, and they make wonderful adults if this nurtured correctly in the early years. Being logical is not to be preferred over being "emotional". People who are in touch with their own emotions often make wonderful friends, family members, therapists, etc. (Speaking as an "over emotional" adult. ;)) Be kind and apply plenty of grace as she begins the very slow process of learning how to modulate her emotions, which is a very normal developmental process for ALL three year olds.

 

I have one child who was much as you describe but more so when he was three. I used some harsh parenting techniques which I now regret. However, I did realize in the middle of it that what I was doing was ineffective and inappropriate. I also had a gut feeling that this child would develop out of some of this stubbonness naturally...and he has. I am a stubborn person (AND an emotional one, to boot), and these qualities have served me VERY well as an adult. ;) The flip side of stubborn is persistent, which is a very good trait. I don't give up because I don't know how. This is a direct result of my stubbornness. Embrace the person whom God has created in your dd. Ask Him for guidance in how to nurture her wonderful qualities. How a child behaves at three does not have a good correlation most of the time to how that child will behave as an adult. I hear the fear in your actions, but I don't think it is justified, in my experience anyway. (My oldest is 15 so I am a bit further down the parenting road.)

[mytwomonkeys]

this letter is from a christian mother to her pastor. it was written after he preached on spanking. i've read it many times & have been encouraged by it. OP, it may be of equal encouragement to you. i hope so. hang in there! hugs.:grouphug:

 

http://whynottrainachild.com/2010/03/11/letter-to-a-pastor-about-spanking/

[Corraleno]

But taking the smallest, and weakest, and most defenseless among us, the children, and hitting THEM...and that IS legal? That's kind of mind-boggling. And disturbing. And to do it in the name of religion is somehow even more so. And it doesn't exactly model to them that "hitting is wrong."

 

It models to them that hitting is okay. That hurting people smaller and weaker than you is okay. That hitting is tied in with love. That authority must be unquestioningly obeyed or you might get hurt.

I do have to say, however, that the (Christian) bible does not, in any translation or form say that "spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet" is God's suggestion or command for parenting.

 

Do what you want with your kids and your discipline choices, but don't try to defend them with bad exegisis, or worse, someone else's parenting ideas based on something you haven't read, researched or prayed about yourself.

 

:iagree:

Jackie

[northcoast]

Thanks for sharing, pygmyshrew (post #199). Spanking can have a place in a Christian home without being abuse. It is not the only form of discipline. No flames please, for what I believe and how I encourage one asking for help, particularly in a Christian context. To the OP, I'm praying that today is a better day for you and that you are experiencing God's grace. Blessings!

[Forget-Me-Not]

I do have to say, however, that the (Christian) bible does not, in any translation or form say that "spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet" is God's suggestion or command for parenting.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

In fact, the Bible says:

 

Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

 

The New Testament makes it abundantly clear that Christ loved children and abhorred the mistreatment of them.

[DesertDweller]

I couldn't wade through all of the replies, but here is my two cents worth, boiled down very simply.

 

I hear you calling her "over emotional" and stating that you don't understand this and it bothers you because you are not this way - instead you are very logical. Perhaps reframe this freely emotional personality as the way God made her. There are many "over emotional" people on the planet, created exactly this way by God, and they make wonderful adults if this nurtured correctly in the early years. Being logical is not to be preferred over being "emotional". People who are in touch with their own emotions often make wonderful friends, family members, therapists, etc. (Speaking as an "over emotional" adult. ;)) Be kind and apply plenty of grace as she begins the very slow process of learning how to modulate her emotions, which is a very normal developmental process for ALL three year olds.

 

I have one child who was much as you describe but more so when he was three. I used some harsh parenting techniques which I now regret. However, I did realize in the middle of it that what I was doing was ineffective and inappropriate. I also had a gut feeling that this child would develop out of some of this stubbonness naturally...and he has. I am a stubborn person (AND an emotional one, to boot), and these qualities have served me VERY well as an adult. ;) The flip side of stubborn is persistent, which is a very good trait. I don't give up because I don't know how. This is a direct result of my stubbornness. Embrace the person whom God has created in your dd. Ask Him for guidance in how to nurture her wonderful qualities. How a child behaves at three does not have a good correlation most of the time to how that child will behave as an adult. I hear the fear in your actions, but I don't think it is justified, in my experience anyway. (My oldest is 15 so I am a bit further down the parenting road.)

 

:iagree: Very good advice!

[Corraleno]

I didn't recommend a lifetime of spanking this child 10x/day --- I just encouraged the mom that spanking this many times a day will only take A FEW DAYS. I don't know that I mentioned the 3 year old "questioning authority" but I do see the child's crying/whining/ignoring mom's basic commands is disobedient and a 3 year old's way of "questioning authority."

I realize you were only recommending it "for a few days." I find the idea hitting a 3 yo old child 10x/day even for one day truly appalling. I can't even fathom doing that to a toddler.

 

I'm glad you don't feel that you were damaged by being hit as a child, in contrast to many others who have posted in this thread. However, you should be aware that, for those who don't believe in hitting children, the very fact that you would condone hitting a 3 yo 10x/day for several days in order to instill a "sweet heart" would be seen as de facto evidence that your upbringing caused damage, because the cycle is continuing. I'm sure you don't agree with that assessment, but you should be aware that other people will see it that way.

 

The whole idea that children need to be hit in order to make them "sweet" just makes my blood run cold. I have very sweet, happy kids, and I didn't need to beat it into them.

 

Jackie

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

As a mom of emotional, strong-willed kids (and wife to an emotional, strong-willed husband), here are some things that I have found that work:

 

Have reasonable expectations. Especially with kids who are precocious, it is easy to set the bar too high. In some ways your kids are acting older than they really are (academically, and maybe in other ways, too), but they are really just X age. It is an eye-opener to observe other kids who are the same age as my kids. This really helps me to see if my expectations are age-appropriate. A series of books that I also enjoy for another perspective is the Your X-Year Old series by Louise Ames and Frances Ilg. Some of the information is a little outdated, but it is great for figuring out what is and is not an appropriate expectation for a particular child at a particular age.

 

Along with expectations, make sure that your kids are in the right state of mind to obey. A tired, hungry, cranky, sick, etc. child is not very likely to behave. They need your help to be able to behave and one way you can help is to make sure that they feel physically and emotionally okay. Baby proofing is another example of this. A baby doesn't know not to grab a fragile item off of a shelf and he/she needs you to help them not do it. The most easy way to do that, of course, is to put any and all fragile items where the baby can not reach them. This can be done with older kids as well. Don't put them in situations where you know they are not able to act appropriately. This includes obeying something when they don't know how to do it or it is difficult for them. My kids can pick up their toys, but unless they are feeling super motivated they really do need my watchful eyes and my helping hands to get it done. Even the 6yo. They aren't being naughty or disobedient. They are just being children.

 

Keep myself calm and peaceful. Not easy and pretty much impossible to do all of the time, but emotional, strong-willed kids tend to be even more sensitive to others' emotions than the average child. If you are frustrated and annoyed or angry, your kids will feel it even if they don't understand what is going on. And, not even on purpose, they will react. You might notice the same thing in yourself if one of your kids or your husband is in a bad mood. When there is a storm cloud over one member of the family, there will likely be one over everyone's head in the near future. You mentioned that you are a non-emotional person, but when and if you feel overwhelmed by negative emotions try to take step back and do something that is quick that calms you.

 

Routines are calming and help children know what to expect next. They are less likely to balk at something when they know and can feel that it is coming. Warnings about what is coming next and even saying "I'll read you two books before we do x, y, or z" are very helpful in having calm obedience here.

 

Keep mentally tuned in to the children. This makes them feel more secure and you can often catch a bad situation before it starts.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Lisa in the UP of MI

[NanceXToo]

I'm glad you don't feel that you were damaged by being hit as a child, in contrast to many others who have posted in this thread. However, you should be aware that, for those who don't believe in hitting children, the very fact that you would condone hitting a 3 yo 10x/day for several days in order to instill a "sweet heart" would be seen as de facto evidence that your upbringing caused damage, because the cycle is continuing. I'm sure you don't agree with that assessment, but you should be aware that other people will see it that way.

 

:iagree:

 

Violence begets violence, and all that.

[Mejane]

I really appreciate your understanding of my baby-filled body

 

We all get that you're tired, hormonal, overwhelmed (BTDT)... but that's not your 3yo's fault, is it? She should not have to pay for your choices, so don't take it out on her.

[Impish]

Nope. Spanking is child abuse. Don't hide behind your religion to justify it.

As someone that WAS abused, this statement p!sses me off mightily. There is a HUGE difference btwn a swat or two on the bottom, and beating a child.

 

To state that spanking is abuse completely devalues, minimizes and ridicules those that HAVE been abused as children.

 

If you want examples of the difference, feel free to search my other post on this thread.

[Happy2BaMom]

Spanking can have a place in a Christian home without being abuse.

 

I have friends who spank, and they are not abusive. Truly. They are loving and have good relationships with their children. They also use spanking as a last resort, not as a first, frequent, and all-too-often-only form of discipline.

 

What spanking has to do with Christian, though is beyond me. For those who claim to take the Bible literally (the infamous "rod" verse), do you also take the Sermon on the Mount literally? I've yet to meet a Biblical literalist who does.

 

How do the *oh-so-Christian* Pearls reconcile their beliefs with the Sermon on the Mount? With the "do unto others..."? They're not interested in that. They're not Christian. They don't follow Christ. They just want power, and lots of it.

[kmacnchs]

I changed my original post...take it or leave it...I am leaving it :)

[Joanne]

As someone that WAS abused, this statement p!sses me off mightily. There is a HUGE difference btwn a swat or two on the bottom, and beating a child.

 

To state that spanking is abuse completely devalues, minimizes and ridicules those that HAVE been abused as children.

 

If you want examples of the difference, feel free to search my other post on this thread.

 

I have to agree. That's why I don't believe in really talking about spanking.

 

"Spanking" can mean anything from a rare swat on the bottom to the systematic training suggested by the Pearls, or the "heart" training offered by Tripp.

 

It's meaningless to use spanking (the presence or the absence) as a barometer of good parenting.

[mykdsmomy]

No flames please, for what I believe and how I encourage one asking for help, particularly in a Christian context.

 

I say this as a fellow Christian; A Christian can make just as big of a case from the bible for NOT spanking as one can for spanking. It's not a "Christian" thing. It truly does boil down to interpretation. The New Testament is filled with Jesus' teaching and NOWHERE in it does Jesus teach us to "hit" our children. I just cannot fathom Him striking a child out of "love" and concern for that child's salvation.

Spanking is not a tool, it's a control issue. I've heard so many parents on here saying that they've "only" used spanking as a "last resort". It shouldn't even be on the radar. If you're using it as a last resort, it means you haven't found something that works. There are many Christian parenting books out there advocating alternative discipline measures.

 

I grew up with regular spankings. I am a VERY sensitive person and the spankings took their toll on me emotionally and physically. They wore me down. They didn't turn me into a cheerful obedient woman. They turned me into a scared, depressed, I'm not worth crap type of person. (I'm working through it now). I realize God loves me unconditionally. God's grace is bigger than any sin and my heart has joy now because of His grace.

 

We are our childrens' FIRST example of God's love. He entrusts their care and upbringing to us. He shows us grace so that we can show our children grace. Spanking teaches them that God's love is conditional, imo.

[Impish]

I have to agree. That's why I don't believe in really talking about spanking.

 

"Spanking" can mean anything from a rare swat on the bottom to the systematic training suggested by the Pearls, or the "heart" training offered by Tripp.

 

It's meaningless to use spanking (the presence or the absence) as a barometer of good parenting.

Thank you. Your response was very welcome to me

[Corraleno]

As someone that WAS abused, this statement p!sses me off mightily. There is a HUGE difference btwn a swat or two on the bottom, and beating a child.

 

To state that spanking is abuse completely devalues, minimizes and ridicules those that HAVE been abused as children.

I don't think there's a clear line between "abuse" and "not abuse" — it's a continuum, and each person will draw the line in a different place. If giving a child 2-3 smacks on the bottom with a hand is OK, is 2-3 smacks with a piece of plastic tubing also OK? Is hitting 10 times on the bottom with a hand OK, but hitting 20 times until the child is screaming, abusive? Where's the line — 5 smacks is OK but 6 is too many? 10 is OK but 11 is abusive? To some people, hitting a child in any way at all is abusive, but that doesn't demean or devalue the experiences of those who have endured much worse abuse. (And I was seriously abused as a child.) Calling drunk driving illegal doesn't devalue rape or murder.

 

I think the issue looks much clearer when adults are used as examples. If a husband slaps his wife for disobeying, is that abuse? Most people would say yes. Hitting a spouse (obviously I'm not talking about a joking whack on the butt, I'm talking about purposefully hitting someone) is always wrong, but hitting a child is OK as long as it's "only" ____________ [fill in the blank.]

 

Why? Why is it not abusive to hit a small child, even 10x/day, but it's abusive to hit a spouse even once? :confused:

 

Jackie

Edited November 5, 2010 by Corraleno

[In2why]

This is difficult to respond to without offending someone along the way, but it breaks my heart to hear of a 3 year old being spanked in this way. If it were a member of my family, or a friend or neighbor, I would intervene without hesitation.

 

Teaching a three year old to cheerfully obey every command put upon them by adults is frightening to me. To then expect them to differentiate between that expectation and abuse is much to ask of a baby.

 

Little ones are often frustrating, but also often charming and silly and sweet and affectionate. It takes a lot of patience to guide them and teach them to be respectful and kind, and to rein in the impulsive behaviors that take them off course. Teaching it by example is the easiest, clearest way.

 

I hope you can find some direction that creates peace in your home.

 

 

I agree.

 

I also want to mention that not all 3 year olds are the same. They might have some of the same behaviors based on maturity, but they are certainly different in temperment.

 

My oldest son (27) was easy going and very compliant with everything we asked. It was easy to think we were great parents, and what we were doing worked. Then my 2nd son was born and at birth he had a mind of his own and a 'strong will'. All of our thoughts about what great parents we were went out the window, and I spanked more than I like to admit. Spanking with him never worked. It might have made him obey, but not with any sense of a cheerful heart. In fact by the age of 5 I could spank him and he would look at me. He would NOT cry, and he would make sure to look at me in a way that let me know I was bigger then him, but I was not winning this battle of wills, he was only doing what I wanted because he wasn't stupid and didn't like pain, not because he thought I was right or had authority over him. Finally the insanity of it all sunk in and I realized we weren't going to change him, we had to change. I started using logical consequences, and the more logical we became the more he responded. He has a strong sense of inborn justice and what is right or wrong. I think he learned it by being a huge reader, more than by anything we did, and he responded to what was right. He was by far my easiest teenager, and adult. He is happy, self disciplined, never bowed to peer pressure, but was popular with peers and adults. If we had continued trying to spank him into compliance I have no idea what might have happened.

Different children have different needs, and responses. What works with one child might not work with another. Spanking is a tool, but it isn't the only tool, the first tool, or always the right tool.

Your daughter might be well served by her will in the future. Her behavior probably has little to do with willfully disobeying.

[Impish]

While I agree, you don't think that being hit 9 times or more in a day as a three year old is at least questionable?

My honest answer? I.Don't.Know. You'll note in my first response that I advised seeking alternatives over the spanking.

'Spanking' means so many different things to people. It can range from a barely-make-contact-but-kid-is-so-offended-they-squall-like-they're-being-killed to hauling off to all you're worth with each blow, as evidenced *to me* by ppl that automatically equate spanking = abuse.

 

Because I don't know, because Mom posted asking for help and guidance, because she so clearly wants to do what's best and right, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.

 

To my mind, a 'spanking' is an open handed swat to the butt. No marks, not even red. That's not abusive, imo. I've been in the position where my child dropped my hand and went to dart in front of traffic...my first instinct? Grab the child, hug them to death with one arm while spanking their butt with the other. I'll darn well spank when the potential is deadly for non-compliance.

 

Its the painting everything with the same brush that makes me insane.

[Amy loves Bud]

 

But taking the smallest, and weakest, and most defenseless among us, the children, and hitting THEM...and that IS legal? That's kind of mind-boggling. And disturbing. And to do it in the name of religion is somehow even more so. And it doesn't exactly model to them that "hitting is wrong."

 

It models to them that hitting is okay. That hurting people smaller and weaker than you is okay. That hitting is tied in with love. That authority must be unquestioningly obeyed or you might get hurt.

 

 

 

Absolutely.

 

I don't agree that the rod verses give the green light for spanking, but even putting that aside, The Bible certainly doesn't command that a BABY of 3 get hit ten times in a day. I can't even imagine.

 

OP, please get a handle on this before your precious child is damaged beyonjd repair.

[mykdsmomy]

I've been in the position where my child dropped my hand and went to dart in front of traffic...my first instinct? Grab the child, hug them to death with one arm while spanking their butt with the other. I'll darn well spank when the potential is deadly for non-compliance.

 

I have done the same in the past BUT....I realized that I was doing it not because I wanted to get the point across that it was DANGEROUS....but because I was so scared of what "could" have happened that I took that fear out on my child by way of spanking.

I'm not saying this is what you or anyone else is doing but I thought I would point that out as food for thought.

 

I also understand what you're saying about painting all kinds of spanking with the abuse title.....but I must say, the longer I've been away from spanking, the more I realize that even an occasional swat is teaching that hitting is ok under certain circumstances. In my opinion, it should be clear from day one that hitting another person for ANY reason is wrong. That includes spanking.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I'm also not trying to paint anyone who spanks as abusive. I'm stating where I've been and how I've come to believe what I believe now about spanking. A few years ago, I would have been in the "a little swat now and then isn't going to hurt anyone" but I've seen first hand what it CAN do to a person and since there are so many other alternatives to discipline, why not use them and just drop the spanking all together?

[MSNative]

Nope. Spanking is child abuse. Don't hide behind your religion to justify it.

"We don't consider spanking abuse, but we do encourage some parents to use alternative methods," said Marleigh Meisner, public information officer for CPS

[Impish]

I have done the same in the past BUT....I realized that I was doing it not because I wanted to get the point across that it was DANGEROUS....but because I was so scared of what "could" have happened that I took that fear out on my child by way of spanking.

I'm not saying this is what you or anyone else is doing but I thought I would point that out as food for thought.

 

I also understand what you're saying about painting all kinds of spanking with the abuse title.....but I must say, the longer I've been away from spanking, the more I realize that even an occasional swat is teaching that hitting is ok under certain circumstances. In my opinion, it should be clear from day one that hitting another person for ANY reason is wrong. That includes spanking.

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative at all. I'm also not trying to paint anyone who spanks as abusive. I'm stating where I've been and how I've come to believe what I believe now about spanking. A few years ago, I would have been in the "a little swat now and then isn't going to hurt anyone" but I've seen first hand what it CAN do to a person and since there are so many other alternatives to discipline, why not use them and just drop the spanking all together?

I appreciate your post.

 

Honestly, I don't *care* about if the spanking was fear based on my part...that child never again darted in traffic. The outcome was all that mattered. If that makes me a bad Mom, then I am. Dead child vs swats on bottom = no contest to me.

 

And what it comes down to for me is that not all things are effective with all children. I've gone from completely terrified of ever swatting my child (I'm talking a finger tap on the back of the hand when reaching for an electrical outlet with a set of keys) to realizing that a swat that barely connects with my dd's bottom actually gets her to pay attention when 2 yrs of time outs (yes, consistently) didn't do squat except give us a 2-3 minute break btwn her looking you in the eyes, grinning and repeating the exact.same.behaviour. that had her on time out to start with.

 

Spanking is in my 'toolbox'. Its a rarely used thing, a last resort, but its there.

 

In my first reply I recommended other methods than spanking. I don't hold with FTO or spanking as the automatic consequence to all behaviours. For me, its the last resort.

 

Sometimes, rarely in my house, the last resort comes into play. But I can never say never.

[TCB]

I can see worth in both sides of this arguement.

 

However, those in the anti-spanking group who consistantly equate 'spanking' with 'beating' either don't know what beating is or are being extreemly inflammatory. Which in my opinion does not further anyone's understanding.

[Impish]

I can see worth in both sides of this arguement.

 

However, those in the anti-spanking group who consistantly equate 'spanking' with 'beating' either don't know what beating is or are being extreemly inflammatory. Which in my opinion does not further anyone's understanding.

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

I'll grant that the OP is not likely a true abuser. I can't imagine a true abuser seeking help, guidance, and suggestions in a public forum. That just doesn't seem to fit. However, the fact it raises eyebrows when she says she sometimes hits her 3 year old child 9 or more times a day doesn't seem out of line to me. The reactions to that are not unreasonable.

 

I don't disagree. The question (to me) is more: were those comments necessary? What's the bottom line in this case? It's not working for her as a discipline method. So, regardless of what you think of spanking, it's not working and she needs to do something else.

[CAMom]

I find it very disturbing that you would come on a PUBLIC forum to ask advice on how to break your toddlers will (and that is what you are doing). When in fact, I suspect all you are really doing is looking for permission to continue abusing your toddler (and now a baby as well) and looking for a pat on the back. This is obvious by your joking dismissal (and calling it absurdity?)of advice given to by anyone here concerned by your discipline methods.

Sorry to break it to you, but while you may find a few misguided souls on here who will

gladly encourage you to continue this ridiculous "to train up a child" charade- most of us on here see it for what it is- child abuse. Your post declaring yourself an "un-emotional person who is annoyed by crying" sent a chill down my spine- I am very worried for your children.

Please, please find some professional (non-Pearl oriented) help.

 

You know what? I've read this entire thread and I am so impressed by the OP!!!!

 

The above quote just really ticks me off! There's a lot of preaching about grace in this thread but many people are just refusing to offer the same grace to the OP!

 

Beth, it is very clear that Katy did not come onto this board looking for a pat on the back or permission to "continue to abuse her toddler!" That is so incredibly ridiculous it's just making my blood boil!

 

Katy was asking for help! And, she was very gracious and very obviously open to gentle correction and alternative suggestions!

 

This flogging of her needs to stop! She's struggling! She knows what she's doing is not working! And, she's open to advice! If those of you who want her to change would just recognize that and answer her with gentle, positive suggestions instead of harsh judgments of child abuse, you might actually have an opportunity to make a positive change in this family's life! If you continue with the inflammatory posts, you will lose that opportunity and fail to "protect" the child you are so concerned about!:mad:

 

Katy, you have shown much humility through the course of this thread and you should be applauded.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Everyone keeps saying that she spanked 9 times. She spanked 3 times (and in a later post told us exactly why she spanked each of those times). Each time she spanked, she gave 3 swats on the bottom. At 3 years old, I would assume them to be gentle swats perhaps even on a diapered bottom. But of course, I can't verify the last. I'm also assuming that her 3 year old was not crying out of pain but out of knowing that she had done wrong in the eyes of her mother.

[Mrs Mungo]

You know what? I've read this entire thread and I am so impressed by the OP!!!!

 

The above quote just really ticks me off! There's a lot of preaching about grace in this thread but many people are just refusing to offer the same grace to the OP!

 

Beth, it is very clear that Katy did not come onto this board looking for a pat on the back or permission to "continue to abuse her toddler!" That is so incredibly ridiculous it's just making my blood boil!

 

Katy was asking for help! And, she was very gracious and very obviously open to gentle correction and alternative suggestions!

 

This flogging of her needs to stop! She's struggling! She knows what she's doing is not working! And, she's open to advice! If those of you who want her to change would just recognize that and answer her with gentle, positive suggestions instead of harsh judgments of child abuse, you might actually have an opportunity to make a positive change in this family's life! If you continue with the inflammatory posts, you will lose that opportunity and fail to "protect" the child you are so concerned about!:mad:

 

Katy, you have shown much humility through the course of this thread and you should be applauded.

 

I totally agree.

 

It's unfortunate FTO was mentioned, that leads people straight to certain books that a LOT of people here have severe problems with. Those books/authors are what's being castigated in many posts, more than the OP.

 

:grouphug: to you, Katy. Most of us have struggled with discipline issues at one time or another.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

"We don't consider spanking abuse, but we do encourage some parents to use alternative methods," said Marleigh Meisner, public information officer for CPS

 

Thank you for this fact.

 

I can see worth in both sides of this arguement.

 

However, those in the anti-spanking group who consistantly equate 'spanking' with 'beating' either don't know what beating is or are being extreemly inflammatory. Which in my opinion does not further anyone's understanding.

:iagree:

 

 

'Spanking' means so many different things to people. It can range from a barely-make-contact-but-kid-is-so-offended-they-squall-like-they're-being-killed to hauling off to all you're worth with each blow, as evidenced *to me* by ppl that automatically equate spanking = abuse.

 

 

:iagree:

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

You know what? I've read this entire thread and I am so impressed by the OP!!!!

 

The above quote just really ticks me off! There's a lot of preaching about grace in this thread but many people are just refusing to offer the same grace to the OP!

 

Beth, it is very clear that Katy did not come onto this board looking for a pat on the back or permission to "continue to abuse her toddler!" That is so incredibly ridiculous it's just making my blood boil!

 

Katy was asking for help! And, she was very gracious and very obviously open to gentle correction and alternative suggestions!

 

This flogging of her needs to stop! She's struggling! She knows what she's doing is not working! And, she's open to advice! If those of you who want her to change would just recognize that and answer her with gentle, positive suggestions instead of harsh judgments of child abuse, you might actually have an opportunity to make a positive change in this family's life! If you continue with the inflammatory posts, you will lose that opportunity and fail to "protect" the child you are so concerned about!:mad:

 

Katy, you have shown much humility through the course of this thread and you should be applauded.

:iagree:

[Heatherwith4]

I totally agree.

 

It's unfortunate FTO was mentioned, that leads people straight to certain books that a LOT of people here have severe problems with. Those books/authors are what's being castigated in many posts, more than the OP.

 

:grouphug: to you, Katy. Most of us have struggled with discipline issues at one time or another.

:iagree: OP, you have been very nice on this thread. I'm not sure I would have handled myself the same way, especially while pregnant. I hope you get things figured out. :grouphug:

[lauranc]

Everyone keeps saying that she spanked 9 times. She spanked 3 times (and in a later post told us exactly why she spanked each of those times). Each time she spanked, she gave 3 swats on the bottom. At 3 years old, I would assume them to be gentle swats perhaps even on a diapered bottom. But of course, I can't verify the last. I'm also assuming that her 3 year old was not crying out of pain but out of knowing that she had done wrong in the eyes of her mother.

 

She actually said in her original post the following:

"So, she has been spanked 10x today :\ "

 

I think that's what people are reading. The original post has been changed by the OP, but someone quoted the original one on the first page, so the info. about how many times is still there.

[Imprimis]

I don't know. It's hard not to react strongly to this. My first feeling when I read it was that I wanted to throw up and cry. But hey, I'm not perfect either and I've done things that aren't what I'd want to brag about. So I'm trying to be understanding. But I am not surprised at the reactions. And one always runs that risk when they ask anything in a public forum.

 

 

I certainly agree. I think the thing to keep in mind here is the fact that, for some people, this is a very provocative issue that evokes very strong emotional responses.

 

I, too, found myself upset, saddened, and concerned for the 3 yo just by reading the op.

 

I do realize the op was looking for advice and I'm so thankful she received so many helpful responses. I do hope she is able to glean some valuable insight from them.

 

Like Wendy, I understand why some responses were so emotional. Sometimes it's difficult to temper your words when it comes to an issue such as spanking a small child. I don't think anyone was out to be mean, rude, or ugly to the op; I think it was more a gut reaction to the thought of a child being mis-treated.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Imprimis

[Jean in Newcastle]

She actually said in her original post the following:

"So, she has been spanked 10x today :\ "

 

I think that's what people are reading. The original post has been changed by the OP, but someone quoted the original one on the first page, so the info. about how many times is still there.

 

Yes, you are correct that that is what she wrote in her OP. Then she clarified later that it was 3 x (3 swats each).

[Jean in Newcastle]

I tried to be careful w/my post b/c I am the worst at putting thoughts onto a post - guess I wasn't careful enough - she gets spanked 3x each time (b/c she is 3) - so let me be careful...she has disobeyed 3-4x today (it has blurred a bit) so 3x3 would be 9 times total...does that make sense?

 

One time was b/c she ignored me when I told her to come (I asked her if she heard me and she said she did - she told me what I said). One time was when I was telling her to do something and she acted like she didn't know what I was talking about, but she did (that stubbornness right there) - in other words, she was choosing to disobey but acting innocent...the other time was when I told her to go potty (which she knows means we are getting ready to take naps) and she just sat there and cried (did not obey). I am just tired.

 

This is the post where she clarified.

[Ginevra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmacnchs

okay, laziness is the answer I never made them wash when I wiped (I am all about saving time)

I have 3 closely spaced kids. I understand.

 

I don't know if you've ever read my page on Get Off Your Butt parenting? My site it old (static, and archived) but it still has some useful stuff. In any case, I'm not a fan of FTO, spanking or "happy hearts". I am, however, a fan of compliance, obedience and discipline.

 

The page I send you won't be spanking = abuse, I promise. It won't be namby-pamby, permissiveness, either.

 

Get Off Your Butt Parenting Page

 

She's right. I always liked Joanne's view because she radiates firmness. Get Off Your Butt was the only thing that (eventually) worked in my favor with my son.

[Pretty in Pink]

I was the one (I believe) who first mentioned FTO. I said something like, "It sounds like you are practicing FTO..." or something like that, and that was in response to the OP's OP:

 

If she does not obey the 1st time, quickly, & w/a happy heart, she will get spanked.

 

I don't think the OP ever clarified whether or not she is trying to enforce FTO. Maybe she isn't. I don't know. Not that it matters now, it seems this thread has run its course, but I wanted to clarify why I even mentioned FTO in the first place.

[Gwenhwyfar]

"We don't consider spanking abuse, but we do encourage some parents to use alternative methods," said Marleigh Meisner, public information officer for CPS

 

that individual would only be able to speak for the CPS office in which she is working.

 

29 countries have made corporal punishment of a minor by their parents illegal.

 

****************

 

Corporal punishment of children by parents, is unlawful in the following countries:

 

Austria - since 1989

Bulgaria - since 2000

Croatia - since 1999

Costa Rica - since 2008

Cyprus - since 1994

Denmark - since 1997

Finland - since 1983

Germany - since 2000

Greece - since 2007

Hungary - since 2004

Iceland - since 2003

Israel - since 2000

Kenya - since 2010

Latvia - since 1998

Luxembourg - since 2008

Moldova - since 2009

Netherlands - since 2007

 

New Zealand - since 2007, when the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 came into effect. However, a non-binding citizen-initiated referendum on corporal punishment in August 2009 produced a large majority against the ban. A private member's bill was then introduced to Parliament to overturn the ban, but it failed at first reading: see New Zealand corporal punishment referendum, 2009.

 

Norway - since 1987 [3](The Supreme court ruled in 2005 that a light "careful slap" applied immediately after the "offence" is still allowed.[4] Legislature abolished this in 2010, and the current law is that any violence against children, including careful slaps, are prohibited.[5])

 

Poland - since 2010

Portugal - since 2007

Romania - since 2004

Sweden - Parents' right to spank their own children was first removed in 1966,[6] and it was explicitly prohibited by law from July 1979.

Spain - since 2007

Tunisia - since 2010 [7]

Ukraine - since 2004

Uruguay - since 2007

Venezuela - since 2007

 

**********************

 

in my country (canada) it is still legal but there are restrictions: it can ONLY be the parent or legal guardian (babysitters, grandma, etc can not spank) doing it, the child must be between the ages of 2-12, and only the open bare hand is permitted (no belts, spoons, paddles, or other implements.). also, spanking on the bare bottom is not allowed - there must be clothing/diaper/etc covering the child at the time.

 

personally ~ i will be very pleased when canada is able to be added to the above list. :)

[lauranc]

Yes, you are correct that that is what she wrote in her OP. Then she clarified later that it was 3 x (3 swats each).

 

Gotcha. Didn't see that one!

[Whereneverever]

Reading through a lot of these posts reminds me of a conversation I had not too long ago with a sweet mother who had 10 sons and 2 daughters. They are all almost grown now- they have two left in high school. I personally know most of their children and some grandchild, and they are wonderful people. Really- these kids are the kind of people I want my kids to grow up to be.

 

I asked her a lot of questions about how she managed and ran her home and a few things really stuck with me.

 

When I asked her about how on Earth she had disciplined so many kids- some of them very strong willed, she didn't answer how I expected.

 

Instead of talking about spanking or time out or natural consequences, her answer was about working to build a foundation of love and respect with your kids. Always, always remembering that your children are a gift from God and don't belong to you- they are on loan and are precious to God. You aren't raising a 3 or a 10 year old- you are raising future mothers and fathers. People who will grow up to be the next generation.

 

I try to think of how I wish I had been treated as a child, and what kind of adult I want my kids to be. And I work to have a strong relationship with them and foster a strong relationship with God.

 

My kids have been very gently raised, and I receive a lot of compliments on their cheer and behavior.

[Rosie_0801]

Once you, OP, and hubby have sorted out this issue, you'll need to figure out how to train the kids into acceptable ways of showing anger. I grew up in the sort of household where Mum was the only one allowed to show negative emotions. The rest of us were supposed to react to discipline as though we'd just been given an ice cream. Mum was big on "appropriate ways of showing negative emotion" but didn't realise how lousy she was at demonstrating that. ;) Now, as an adult, I can see that Mum was just tripping off her own, even more strict, upbringing because I'm doing the same. 20 years of delayed anger and frustration takes a long time to work through.

 

Here (unless I'm suffering from complete sensory overload, which will happen when an introverted mum is at home with two small kids) crying is acceptable. It's not like I can stop a person crying anyway. I may put her in her room so it isn't right in my face, but it is allowed. "I'm angry about that!" or something similar will be acceptable when she's verbal enough to say it. I don't like door slamming, but ignore it the first time because a) she's not verbal enough to use words yet and needs some way to communicate and b) her dad is half Deaf and is always slamming doors because he doesn't realise how loud it is! Deliberate repeated slamming results in her being put in her room though.

 

What we do and don't consider acceptable is going to change as they get older, of course, but that's where we are now with our 3 year old.

 

You must allow the demonstration of negative emotion in some way, or you'll likely end up with teens who do their best to hide their hearts from you because they'll know you can't be trusted with them. You'll have spent years proving it. The next step after that, in my family, is that one of my siblings ignores nearly all communication from Mum, and the other seems only to talk to her to complain about how dreadful she is (my sister has some growing up to do and seems not to be doing it. Mum isn't really that bad.) Mum met a new partner and moved to the other side of the country and none of us cared.

 

Rosie