CC: breaking your child's will...

[BarbecueMom]

Your post declaring yourself an "un-emotional person who is annoyed by crying" sent a chill down my spine- I am very worried for your children.

 

I'm curious... is it the combination of being "non-emotional" with the spanking, or just the "non-emotional" part?

 

I'm an INTJ (and married to one). Parenting toddlers is so much more emotionally taxing than I could have ever imagined. I visualize things as problems and solutions, but small children are neither of those. I have to constantly remind myself that raising kids is a relationship, not a project. I'm not a "cold mother"; I cuddle, play, laugh, tickle, read books in funny voices, and give sympathy. However, when I'm not "all there" at the emotional level where my toddler needs me, it shows in his behavior! Big time! He gets to PMS right along with me!

 

I'm barely out of the novice category on parenting, but perhaps putting more intention on relationship (even when it is painfully uncomfortable) might affect some of the discipline issues.

[Jenn in Mo]

I try to not answer before finishing reading the responses, but there are a LOT of responses and I'm really sleepy and won't get to read until tomorrow. After 8 years on the board, I have a feeling this will be gone before tomorrow.

 

I agree with you that the desired result is first time obedience with a happy heart. I agree with you that this is a good age to establish this habit. I agree with you that spanking is an effective method for some children. I just wanted to encourage you and to offer some advice.

 

#1 Spanking doesn't work for all, so be observant of her reactions. For one of mine, time out was a thousand times more effective.

 

#2 When mine have needed a re-establishing of 'how things work around here', it has typically taken 3 days of consistency before they stopped pushing the limits and accepted that this really is the way things work around here. Mine are now 13, 10, 7, and 5 and I just enjoy them to pieces. I have amazing kids and I am glad that I taught them how to cheerfully obey when they were young and more easily able to learn it.

 

#3 Though I'm sure you're doing fine, be certain to stay calm and rested and never spank in anger. Gentle but firm demeanors are much more effective. Our rule of thumbs are

#1 one swat for each year of their age and I swatted my own leg first to be sure it wasn't really painful. T

#2 discuss the disobedience and discuss what else they could have done or how else they could have done it.

#3 end with a hug and encouraging note

#4 practicing. We made it a game to practice mom calling from a different room and them practice giving a cheerful yes ma'am and coming to me, picking up toys, etc. These were done as a playtime activity and not related to a discipline moment.

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm curious... is it the combination of being "non-emotional" with the spanking, or just the "non-emotional" part?

 

I'm an INTJ (and married to one).

 

I'm an ENT(J/P) married to an INTJ, I understand. You Sensing Feeling types may not get this, but the emotions of toddlers and teens can be very draining to the less touchy-feely personality types.

[BarbecueMom]

I'm an ENT(J/P) married to an INTJ, I understand. You Sensing Feeling types may not get this, but the emotions of toddlers and teens can be very draining to the less touchy-feely personality types.

 

:scared:!! You mean there's another tunnel, after the light at the end of this tunnel?!

[jazzyfizzle]

My devoid, disfunct, p!ssy parents are looking better and better all the time. :eek:

 

 

INTJ here. ;)

[Mrs Mungo]

:scared:!! You mean there's another tunnel, after the light at the end of this tunnel?!

 

Oh, honey, it's just hills, valleys and sections of one long tunnel. Some things get easier (you don't have to tell them to brush their teeth forever), some things get harder (they get better at arguing). Once they can feed and pick up after themselves it feels like less work. :grouphug:

[GWOB]

Spanking is just one method of discipline, and if another method works better than use the one that works!! I wouldn't use what doesn't work!

 

Mary

 

]I would also agree that expecting first time obedience from a 3 year old is asking too much.[/b]

 

I don't think a swat on the bottom ever killed anyone' date=' but if I had to hit my child ten times in one day, it would kill [i']me[/i] and I'd be looking for some other way.

 

I refused to open this thread until:

 

1) I had a few glasses of wine

2) I was raging with PMS

3) I felt like dealing with my own personal physical abuse as a child.

 

I agree with all the nuggets of wisdom I highlighted before. I am not completely against spanking, but I use it as a LAST resort, after talking, removing privileges, time outs, everything else I can possibly think of has not worked.

 

Three-year-olds are difficult. They are willful, stubborn, highly emotional, and slightly deranged. But for God's sake, they are THREE!!! They just don't get it. They are just getting a grasp of the world. Seriously, this kid is not thinking of ways to "get" you. She does not have the mental capacity to play mind games with you. She is not willful. She is just three.

 

Treading lightly, but honestly, here. In my opinion, as a mother currently parenting her third 3yo, as a victim of physical abuse, this kinda borders on abuse. You mentioned your pregnancy. Pregnancy makes you crazy. You have to acknowledge and own that crazy, not take it out on a 3yo.

 

My parents beat the ever-loving snot out of me until the day I left their home 4 days shy of my 18th birthday. They never broke my will, only my ability to trust people, form meaningful relationships, and love for myself. Honey, it just isn't going to work.

 

I speak from experience on both sides of the rod. Dd10 was a mostly enjoyable 3yo. Ds7 was a complete nut job. He threw tantrums like you have never seen. I was consistent with him, removing him from situations, redirecting him, and loving him through the storms. He is the most loving, even-tempered 7yo now. I am now weathering the storm with my current 3yo. She is a diva, drama queen, slightly OCD bundle of opinions. I will remain firm, consistent, and loving. She will emerge on the other side as a wonderful young lady. I don't have to beat the snot out of her to get her there. I have to show love, grace, and mercy, just like God shows me on an hourly basis.

[mykdsmomy]

I feel the need to post to this thread as I am a Christian and I firmly believe in the bible.

 

That said, I believe (as do many many Christians) that God does NOT call us to "spank" our children. (I could never imagine Jesus striking a child. EVER.)

 

I say this to you as a mother who did spank her children at one time. I regret it now. I have several conservative Christian friends who regret spanking their children when they were little. I also have friends who continue to do so and wonder why their children still aren't obeying them :confused:

 

I found this link and thought I would share it with you.

http://www.nospank.net/popcak.htm

 

The passages that have been used to support spanking can be used to support NOT spanking as well. Training a child is done through discipleship, love and boundaries. She will get there. She is 3. She is young and you are tired (understandably so). Grace is an amazing gift that God has given to us and we need to give it to our children as well.

 

:grouphug:

[Imprimis]

THANK YOU for saying this! :hurray:

 

Daisy, you are one of my very favorite WTMers, and I always find your responses to be so thoughtful and compassionate.

:grouphug:

 

 

 

Just had to jump in here to agree. Daisy is wonderful. I appreciate her insight and compassion.

[Jenn in Mo]

Forgot to mention a book that I just loved, for gentle yet consistent parenting: http://www.amazon.com/Kid-Cooperation-Yelling-Pleading-Cooperate/dp/1572240407/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_5

[Impish]

I think she needs a do-over.

 

"sweetie, I'm glad you obeyed me, but you were crying and whining. So now I need you to do it again but with a cheerful attitude."

 

rinse repeat.

I love this!

I like the C.S. Lewis quote: "Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do."

And this. I'm so going to stick it on the fridge, and read it out loud to Princess. Repeatedly. Hourly. *sigh*

*snip* Basically, I go down the HALT acronym - Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired/Thirsty *snip*

I'd never heard of that! Excellent!

Katy - I've been impressed with how gracious you have been in reading and responding to those who have posted in this thread. I can see that you are really wanting to be a good mom to your kids and that is great!

:iagree:

I'm an ENT(J/P) married to an INTJ, I understand. You Sensing Feeling types may not get this, but the emotions of toddlers and teens can be very draining to the less touchy-feely personality types.

Heck, I *am* a pretty sensing/feeling type and toddlers-not-sure-what-age-I'll-get-a-reprieve-emotional-drama-divas exhaust me to bits.

 

The timing of this thread is uncanny for me. Princess, at age of 4 has decided that being just plain a BRAT is a good plan. I love my girl, don't get me wrong, but when she decides that yelling, "NO!" in my face and running away is a good plan, or smacking me when she decided that I hurt her feelings (ie: by telling her not to use the couch as a trampoline) something had to give.

 

So, I tried spanking yesterday. From someone who was raised in a non-Christian, extremely abusive home (I specify 'non-Christian b/c, simply, abuse happens, regardless of if someone dresses it up with religion or not, and yes, there is a difference btwn spanking and abuse. Hitting with a piece of 2x4, kicking with boots on, shoving a child down the stairs, hauling a sleeping child out of bed by their hair, punching a sleeping child in the stomach, punching a child in the side of the head in the car so their head ricochets off the window and hitting them again...those are worthy of a CPS call. I could give 1000s of more examples, but you get the drift. Spanking, an open hand on the butt, is not. And for those who swat their dh's, I dunno about anyone else, but a swat on my dh's rump is harder than I'd ever imagine on a child's. He's way bigger. He does the same to me, so neither of us are beating another :tongue_smilie:)

 

Anyways. Princess was spanked more yesterday than she had been in probably the last year. Which is to say that she did indeed get spanked when she yelled no at me, (or said no by her actions: "Don't jump on the couch" Princess: *grin* *jump* immediately after) or hit ppl. She was warned, and then I followed through when she repeated her behaviour. Every. time.

 

That was yesterday.

 

Today? She told me no *once*. Hasn't hit anyone. The only issue today was, "Princess, quit jumping on the furniture!" Princess: Its not 'furniture', its da couch! *facepalm* One spanking today. And no, not for the furniture remark.

 

Huge difference. I figure she's going to be testing me like nuts, but for her, it worked when all the time outs, etc didn't do squat. I just knew I couldn't allow my 4 yo to keep going the way she was going. I'm hoping that now she knows Mommy means what she says, she'll be more willing to repair her mistakes with a time out from now on, but I've discovered that with her, a spanking does work. Tazzie would put HIMSELF on a timeout when he was a toddler, for pity sakes! Diva is 12 this wknd, and still high maintenance. Obviously, she doesn't get spanked at her age, and it wasn't something I did when she was little, so terrified of my own past.

 

Spanking my kid isn't going to put her in an abusive relationship. Btdt myself. When your parents tell you that you're nothing (and I mean literally. Parents would call me into their room, and ask, "Who are you?" if I said my name, it was, "No! You're NOTHING. You're NOBODY. Understand?") raise you in fear, no self worth, self esteem, etc...Classic textbook recipe for abusive adult relationships. I don't know how I missed the alcohol/drug addiction cycle, since I've got all the red flags for that too, but I'm grateful. Small mercies and all that.

 

Btw, Princess and Diva are/were both the cry/scream like the da*ned when they don't get their way little kids. A neighbour told me when Diva was 6 that she thought Wolf/I was abusing her and was getting ready to call CPS on us when she happened to witness an incident in the yard.

 

Wolf told Diva to go in the house because she had done something naughty. Diva trudged slowly in, screaming and wailing all the while. Wolf was never closer than 10 ft to her. That's when the neighbour realized that gee, maybe this kid isn't being beaten, she's a screaming meemee. Yup.

 

I'm not one for FTO either...I'd have to be a huge hypocrite to ask that of my kids when *I* can't manage it.

 

Short version: I completely agree spanking can be an effective parenting tool...but at 3, I'd try everything else in the arsenal. And some kids simply have to grow out of the everything-is-a-crying-jag-stage. And its freaking TOUGH dealing with it. Constant crying over nothing makes me twitchy, so I totally get where your frustration comes from. :grouphug: Unfortunately, only time has been the one fix I've truly discovered.

[Jenn in Mo]

hugs to you, darlin'. I just can't even imagine going through that and turning out so sweetly!

 

Now, I have to ask....what is FTO? I've seen it several times in this thread and a google search turns up...wait for it...."Fight the Octopus".

 

I'm betting that's not it.

[catalinakel]

I refused to open this thread until:

 

1) I had a few glasses of wine

2) I was raging with PMS

3) I felt like dealing with my own personal physical abuse as a child.

 

I agree with all the nuggets of wisdom I highlighted before. I am not completely against spanking, but I use it as a LAST resort, after talking, removing privileges, time outs, everything else I can possibly think of has not worked.

 

Three-year-olds are difficult. They are willful, stubborn, highly emotional, and slightly deranged. But for God's sake, they are THREE!!! They just don't get it. They are just getting a grasp of the world. Seriously, this kid is not thinking of ways to "get" you. She does not have the mental capacity to play mind games with you. She is not willful. She is just three.

 

Treading lightly, but honestly, here. In my opinion, as a mother currently parenting her third 3yo, as a victim of physical abuse, this kinda borders on abuse. You mentioned your pregnancy. Pregnancy makes you crazy. You have to acknowledge and own that crazy, not take it out on a 3yo.

 

My parents beat the ever-loving snot out of me until the day I left their home 4 days shy of my 18th birthday. They never broke my will, only my ability to trust people, form meaningful relationships, and love for myself. Honey, it just isn't going to work.

 

I speak from experience on both sides of the rod. Dd10 was a mostly enjoyable 3yo. Ds7 was a complete nut job. He threw tantrums like you have never seen. I was consistent with him, removing him from situations, redirecting him, and loving him through the storms. He is the most loving, even-tempered 7yo now. I am now weathering the storm with my current 3yo. She is a diva, drama queen, slightly OCD bundle of opinions. I will remain firm, consistent, and loving. She will emerge on the other side as a wonderful young lady. I don't have to beat the snot out of her to get her there. I have to show love, grace, and mercy, just like God shows me on an hourly basis.

 

Wow Wendi. The grace of our Lord Jesus, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit has been with you in a mighty way. What a testimony your parenting is.

[Impish]

hugs to you, darlin'. I just can't even imagine going through that and turning out so sweetly!

 

Now, I have to ask....what is FTO? I've seen it several times in this thread and a google search turns up...wait for it...."Fight the Octopus".

 

I'm betting that's not it.

Me? Sweet? :blink:

 

FTO = First Time Obedience...Octopus...snort!

[OnTheBrink]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

 

You rock!

 

Other thoughts directed to the OP:

 

Your child is 3. She is immature because she's 3. She's self-centered because she's 3. Her childhood is a training ground for adult-hood, and she's barely out of infancy, so you can not expect cheerful, instantaneous obedience at 3. I honestly don't think 3 year olds are capable of "cheerful and instant" obedience.

 

Something to think about: She might not respond well to direct orders to instantly stop and do something else. Meaning, if you're ready to leave the house, for example, and she's involved in something and you expect her to stop on a dime and switch gears, you might be exercising futility. Some kids (heck, some adults) don't operate that way. I know with my own kids, a 5 minute warning worked wonders. "DD, in 5 minutes, you need to give the dog some water." or "DD, you have 10 more minutes to play before you need to pick your things up." I have found that gets me a much better attitude and less resistance. Even at the age of 12, my daughter responds better to that then just a "Go and do" sort of order. Obviously, there will be times when she will have to instantly obey, like in an emergency type of situation. But, I think kids (at least my own) respond and obey better if they're given some idea of what to expect.

 

I am not anti-spanking, but I can count on one hand how many times my 12 year old has been spanked. It's reserved for the most vile of offenses. Used in any other way soon renders it a useless tool and can often become nothing more than abuse.

 

As for the older child bossing her around, I'd nip that behavior RIGHT NOW. The older child is NOT an adult or in a place of authority over the younger and she needs to be reeled back in. You're going to have a newborn in about a month, and you're going to be tired, stressed and distracted for a while. Start now with training and reminding the oldest that she is not the parent and she needs to back off the bossiness.

 

Good luck.

[Forget-Me-Not]

OP, I hope you will read THIS LINK. It's a letter written by a woman (who posts at mothering.com) and her husband to their pastor. It discusses the Biblical basis for spanking and makes what I believe are some very valid and important points.

[Liz CA]

I am not anti-spanking. I didn't say whether spanking in general was right or wrong. I said that it shouldn't be the only tool in your parenting toolbox and offered alternatives.

 

Very true! I, too, spanked when I felt it was needed.

 

I wonder why she is crying so often. Is she frustrated she cannot communicate everything to you or is she anticipating the discipline? I found (and again this is just my view)the more worked up the child is, the calmer the parent needs to be. When ds was little and all out of sorts, I could often calm him down with being very calm and providing structure. Someone (Jean?) suggested giving choices - age appropriately, of course.

"Shall we put the blocks in the blue or the red container?"

This gives the child a choice. But putting the blocks away is not a choice.

 

I am sure you are saddle sore and weary at the end of every day. Perhaps trying a different approach will change the dynamics. I do remember those days when it just seemed one long fight.

 

[Liz CA]

Amen! Nothing left to say...except your posts either make me crack up or cry.

[Impish]

Amen! Nothing left to say...except your posts either make me crack up or cry.

:confused: (being nosy)

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

 

I wonder why she is crying so often.

 

My son at that age cried because he knew that he "should" obey me but didn't want to. It is hard when you don't want to do something. He would simply express that difficulty. I never spanked for that. I would sympathize (but not too much because in this child that would have made him cry more because he had my sympathy) but still ask him to obey.

 

I did try to make it easier and more enjoyable to obey esp. at those times that were part of our routine - like clean up time. We would sing the "clean up" song, and/or try to beat the clock or try to surprise Daddy with a clean house. If you want cheerful obedience, it helps to make it easy to be cheerful about it.

[Impish]

My son at that age cried because he knew that he "should" obey me but didn't want to. It is hard when you don't want to do something. He would simply express that difficulty. I never spanked for that. I would sympathize (but not too much because in this child that would have made him cry more because he had my sympathy) but still ask him to obey.

 

I did try to make it easier and more enjoyable to obey esp. at those times that were part of our routine - like clean up time. We would sing the "clean up" song, and/or try to beat the clock or try to surprise Daddy with a clean house. If you want cheerful obedience, it helps to make it easy to be cheerful about it.

:iagree: Never ceases to amaze me that, "Daddy's home soon!" is the biggest and surest way to get help with picking up without any complaints at all from my kids! :lol:

[rootsnwings]

I feel so sorry for you, Katy, because I feel like you are under a ton of stress right now and you are at your wits end. I have so been there. DS(3) was 20mos old when DD was born and OMG. I had some HORRIBLE post partym hormones going on, I was so tired from nursing a newborn all night that I had gotten LAZY in my interactions with the older children during the day. About 2 weeks into it I found myself wanting to spank the ONE YEAR OLD a hundred times a day. I have only ever spanked DS(9) a few times (I recall each incident!) and always tried to use non-violent methods of discipline with him. The 20mo old had NEVER been spanked before the baby was born (he was my sweet, precious, nursing toddler!) but after she came he saw how FRIED I was & did everything in his power to get a rise out of me. I felt GORRIBLE and knew I had to do something drastic before I started hitting my one year old baby. SO, I implemented time out. JUST like supernanny does it, if you need a reference. ;) I had to get off my butt, put the nursing/sleeping baby down, and deal with him the very second he disobeyed or did something he knew he wasn't supposed to do. He would go to time out for 1 minute and those first two days of time outs were HELL-acious. He would run from the time out spot 75x everytime I put him there. He would finally give in and the minute I would let him come out he would do something else he knew he wasn't supposed to, just to try me. I seriously had to perservere! It was very much like what the pearls teach, conditioning the child to submissivness, but I did it completely without violence. After a few days all I would have to do is snap when I spoke a command and he knew immediately that if he didn't do it he was going to time out. I have all three of the kids snap/clap trained and it works amazingly well when we're out in public, where I can't/don't want to raise my voice. Try that when you're working on WHATEVER method you decide to use, and use your method CONSISTENTLY. EVERY. TIME.

 

The thing that I love/d about time out was that it gave me a minute to regain my composure. Those pg/pp hormones were RAGING in me and I seriously had to teach myself how to calm down & "be the adult". Another benefit that I didn't realize would occur from time out is that dc would have a moment to reflect on what I've put him there for, where if I were to have spanked him he would just spend that time after he discipline mad at me, not working through his behavior. Everytime j would go get him from time out I would ask him to say he was sorry for xyz, then give him a hug, a smile and we'd go on our merry way. What a relief this was for both of us!!!!

 

Now, this has just become THE METHOD in our house. Even the baby, who has never actually been put in time out, knows what time out is all about. All I have to do is ask her if she needs to go to time-out & she either walks herself over there (and makes us giggle), or she straightens up whatever she was doing because she knows there will be a consequence.

 

It's the consistent consequence that makes children obey happily. My children don't "fear" a time-out, but it's certainly something they don't want to have to endure. I don't want them to fear me to respect me. I want them to respect me because they know that I'm the authority & I will dish out a consequence, everytime, for their behavior.

 

Now we use timeout *maybe* once every week or two. They just comply. And, I'm a whole HECKUVA lot more energetic these days and feel better able to steer them throughout the day so as to avoid meltdowns & conflicts. It's when I'm not on my game that I'm glad the time-out system is innolace because it helps us all feel secure that we have a system laid out, if it becomes necessary.

 

Something that helps me as the get older, with the cheerful obedience? A "yes ma'am" or other acknowledgement of my request. Once they reply that they've heard & understand what is being asked of them it's like they've entered into a contract with you & feel obligated to hold up their end of the deal. By getting that recognition you're actually putting the ball in their court & they start to feel they are doing something as "part of the team" & they begin to feel a sense of accomplishment in doing the task requested--always, always, always praise them for this kind if work! It is such a better system of reinforcement & really helps the parent-child bond, in my experience!

 

I wish you the best of luck, Katy, and give you kudos for coming here looking for advice from such adiverse group of people! I feel like you really are looking for alternatives to having to spank your child & I can respect that! I love all the talk of positive reinforcement, stickers, potty charts, choosing battles & trying to be compassionate with our emotional toddlers. It really is so helpful for them to see us being empathetic of their strong emotions. That's how they learn empathy for others, by seeing it modeled by us.

[rootsnwings]

Please excuse all my typos, I just thumb typed all that at 1am! :tongue_smilie:

[Peela]

I am not Christian so take that into account if you like....but I see my kids as gifts from God, and I see them as my biggest teachers, not just the other way around.

My kids teach me compassion and humility. I dont presume to always know what is best for them or what is right. I just do my best, as you are doing, as we all do.

Trust your heart, your inner knowing, trust your love for your child. You were given inner guidance, a connection to what is right and best for you in your own heart. I gently suggest that you examine your beliefs in the light of what your heart feels is the right thing to do.

Swinging to the opposite extreme of how we were treated as children has never worked.

[Kipling]

Hi,

Like many others, I have not read all the posts (I think I stopped around page 8 or so - I have to start school sometime;)).

I won't offer any specific advice, but I do have some books to recommend that my husband and I have found very helpful in training our kids. And for the OP, we have similar values to you. We have taught our kids that obedience means do what we say, the first time, with a good attitude. If they haven't done all three parts, they haven't obeyed. Here are 3 books you may want to consider reading:

What the Bible Says About Child Training by J. Richard Fugate

Faith Shaped Kids by Steve and Valerie Bell

and my favorite:

Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining, and Bad Attitudes in You and Your Kids by Scott Turansky and Joanne Miller

This last book really speaks to the heart issues and helps with the whole family dynamics. It gives advice on what to expect from our kids, how to treat our kids, and how our kids should treat each other. I can't recommend it enough. Now that I have it off the shelf, I may have to read it again:D.

 

As a note of encouragement, our oldest dc has been our more willful, challenging one so far (although I think the youngest may give her a run for her money). What we have noticed with her is that her willfulness goes in phases. Everything will be OK for a while, and then WHAM! everything becomes a challenge, the attitude comes back with a vengeance, and she ends up getting disciplined ALL DAY LONG. We have decided that she is testing her boundaries to see what she can get away with and if we have relaxed our standards. As long as we handle it consistently, it stops after a few days or a week and then she goes back to being a cheerful, helpful, obedient girl for a while. And then we start all over again. BUT, on a positive note, when she was younger, the bad phases lasted longer and the good phases were shorter. As she has grown, we can really see the effects of consistent training.

[lionfamily1999]

She's three :grouphug:

 

First, you have a long time before you can ruin her for life :p

Second, it is going to take time to learn all this (for her).

Third, she's three :D That's the age for making Mom pull out all her hair.

 

I'm not sure that spanking every.single.time is the answer. Sometimes, you just have to be specific. I used to sit in my youngest's room and tell him to pick up each individual toy and put it away. It was the only way he could "remember" to get them all. I think these things are like any other skill, at first you need Mom standing over you, walking you through the process.

 

As for the happy heart... Check your attitude, do you do all your work with a happy heart? Then, I would recommend working gently on her understanding of stewardship (such a big concept for such a little girl). In our house, knowing that we have things *on loan* from God (instead of saying gifts, we try to emphasis that God's LEANT them to us) makes us more careful to take care of things and to remember with gratitude that they come from God.

 

:grouphug:

 

It's okay.

[Lizzie in Ma]

I agree! I have found that with my more emotional children, spanking is the least effective tool (and should be the *last resort* too anyhowl!) to use. They have trouble getting their emotions in check and are ruled by them, because they are immature little humans. I give more grace and training whenever possible rather than punishments. Training, which is exhausting and time-consuming, yes, has better results in most kids than simple spanking which can be the easier way out, believe it or not. But the effectiveness of spanking relies so much on a child's personality, developed (or not) sense of morality and fairness, and how often it's used. When spanking is the go-to "discipline", it seems less effective.

 

2 favorite training techniques of mine:

 

The Rewind: When a wrong behavior choice is made, we walk through the right/better response together. Stomping up stairs in anger? My 15yo dd STILL rewinds and has to do it over! LOL She's been doing it since she was 3; less often now... ;)

 

Good Choice/Bad Choice: When you see or feel a situtation is ready to blow or are giving your child a request/command that you KNOW is going to probably cause their contrary nature or misbehavior to rear its ugly head, offer them the good choice in that situation and how it will benefit them/you along WITH the request. "Jane, I need you to pick up those blocks now. A good choice would be to do it quickly so that we can go get our lunch!" Maybe add in an occasional pep talk line: "I know you can do it really FAST!" Sometimes adding the negatives of the bad choice helps as well: "If we don't get those cleaned up now, though, our lunch might get cold (or we will have to wait longer to go to the park, whatever)." It doesn't have to be long and drawn out every time, though.

 

If it's too late for preventative medicine, haha, go over the good choice opportunity that was missed when the child made the poor choice and explain how much better it could have been. Look forward to the good choice being made next time and PRAISE big-time when that happens! Lots of praise for good choices is HUGE at our house. On the other hand, downplaying an emotional response to the poor choices has a greater effect and we tend to use matter-of-fact tones with those as much as possible.

 

Excellent post. :iagree:

I thought I believed spanking would work, it worked for my siblings and I as kids. Then I had kids. Spanking the first one backfired and badly. It was the absolute wrong way to go with her but I sure gave it the old college try before conceding. I didn't know any other ways.

The second was and is highly emotional, easily crushed in spirit and easily distracted. Spanking would destroy her.

So I learned. sigh The "rewind" is an excellent tool.

Training is so much harder than the fear based parenting I grew up under. Hang in there, you will find what works for your family.

 

One of the best things I ever heard about parenting was this...

Your expectations for your child can not be the same as your goals.

Your goal is someday they will obey the first time you speak. In Reality, your expectation is that it is going to take a lot of training to reach your goal. Getting them confused makes for a lot of frustration on both sides.

[lauranc]

 

Punishment is what parents do during the months that kids use to outgrow that particular behavior.

 

 

 

 

I completely agree-- In my experience, I've found this to be so true.

[....]

Yes. I'm going to get this thread banned, but please, please don't parent this way. We were raised EXACTLY like this and both of my sisters are in abusive relationships. My sister's boyfriend threw her up against the wall and dragged her through the house by her hair and she STILL ran back to him. One of my sisters was in a mental hospital and all three of us have some kind of personality disorder. My husband and I have been watching my sisters go through one disgusting relationship after another and it is heart-breaking.

 

Have you been outside lately? The LAST thing you want to raise is a kid who obeys cheerfully and doesn't question authority. These are great qualities in a small child, but horrible qualities in an adult. We need adults who are not afraid to go against the current of our society, who are stubborn and stand up for their convictions. You know who told me that? Some of the older people in our church.

 

I'm sorry that you're having trouble with your 3 yro. I have a 3 yro, too. I have absolutely no expectations for her and she's still moving along like she should. She's a great kid.

 

I know that you feel like you're being attacked on this thread and I'm sorry if my post is offensive, but this is worrying me a lot. I'm sure you are a great parent and we don't know you. All we know is what we've read from the post. I'm sorry if I offended you.

[fairfarmhand]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

 

are we sisters separated at birth???

 

I totally identify with your experience.

[BikeBookBread]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

 

Thank you Daisy... :grouphug:

[8circles]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

 

Thank you Daisy.

[Teachin'Mine]

Just want to say thank you to Wendy, Daisy and so many of the other posters who have shared their personal experiences. I've learned so much here and I'm slowly changing my own parenting style. Because of this board and posts by loving, patient parents - one of the reasons I'll miss Pamela here - I'm trying hard to change as my daughter ages - I can tend to micromanage. :tongue_smilie: It was hard seeing her as a teenager when she was 13, and impossible not to see her that way now. This board is amazing. My daughter's life will be a little less stressful because of all the wisdom shared here. :grouphug:

 

To the OP, I'm truly hoping and praying that you and your husband will find a different way and share the love, compassion, and mercy of Jesus with them.

[Okra]

I am also impressed by your grace under fire. It is admirable that you have been able to read some of these replies and not fire back.

[kmacnchs]

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

this does NOT mean that I am anti-spanking now, but thank you for this - this DOES say a lot about grace and I will put it on my 'list' to look over again and again (I need lots of reminders) :)

[kmacnchs]

I visualize things as problems and solutions, but small children are neither of those. I have to constantly remind myself that raising kids is a relationship, not a project.

 

Yes - I need to remind myself MORE this! Thank you!

 

I'm not a "cold mother"; I cuddle, play, laugh, tickle, read books in funny voices, and give sympathy. However, when I'm not "all there" at the emotional level where my toddler needs me, it shows in his behavior! Big time! He gets to PMS right along with me!

 

yeah, this is what I am like...

 

I'm barely out of the novice category on parenting, but perhaps putting more intention on relationship (even when it is painfully uncomfortable) might affect some of the discipline issues.

 

yes, thank you

[kmacnchs]

I try to not answer before finishing reading the responses, but there are a LOT of responses and I'm really sleepy and won't get to read until tomorrow. After 8 years on the board, I have a feeling this will be gone before tomorrow.

 

I agree with you that the desired result is first time obedience with a happy heart. I agree with you that this is a good age to establish this habit. I agree with you that spanking is an effective method for some children. I just wanted to encourage you and to offer some advice.

 

#1 Spanking doesn't work for all, so be observant of her reactions. For one of mine, time out was a thousand times more effective.

 

#2 When mine have needed a re-establishing of 'how things work around here', it has typically taken 3 days of consistency before they stopped pushing the limits and accepted that this really is the way things work around here. Mine are now 13, 10, 7, and 5 and I just enjoy them to pieces. I have amazing kids and I am glad that I taught them how to cheerfully obey when they were young and more easily able to learn it.

 

#3 Though I'm sure you're doing fine, be certain to stay calm and rested and never spank in anger. Gentle but firm demeanors are much more effective. Our rule of thumbs are

#1 one swat for each year of their age and I swatted my own leg first to be sure it wasn't really painful. T

#2 discuss the disobedience and discuss what else they could have done or how else they could have done it.

#3 end with a hug and encouraging note

#4 practicing. We made it a game to practice mom calling from a different room and them practice giving a cheerful yes ma'am and coming to me, picking up toys, etc. These were done as a playtime activity and not related to a discipline moment.

 

thank you

 

I do this stuff but it's always good to have reminders (as I have to remind myself again and again)

[kmacnchs]

please excuse all my typos, i just thumb typed all that at 1am! :tongue_smilie:

 

 

impressive!!!

[smrtmama]

Yes. I'm going to get this thread banned, but please, please don't parent this way. We were raised EXACTLY like this and both of my sisters are in abusive relationships. My sister's boyfriend threw her up against the wall and dragged her through the house by her hair and she STILL ran back to him. One of my sisters was in a mental hospital and all three of us have some kind of personality disorder. My husband and I have been watching my sisters go through one disgusting relationship after another and it is heart-breaking.

 

Have you been outside lately? The LAST thing you want to raise is a kid who obeys cheerfully and doesn't question authority. These are great qualities in a small child, but horrible qualities in an adult. We need adults who are not afraid to go against the current of our society, who are stubborn and stand up for their convictions. You know who told me that? Some of the older people in our church.

 

I'm sorry that you're having trouble with your 3 yro. I have a 3 yro, too. I have absolutely no expectations for her and she's still moving along like she should. She's a great kid.

 

I know that you feel like you're being attacked on this thread and I'm sorry if my post is offensive, but this is worrying me a lot. I'm sure you are a great parent and we don't know you. All we know is what we've read from the post. I'm sorry if I offended you.

 

 

Thank you for saying this. This is exactly the fear my husband, a law enforcement officer with advanced DV law training and a great personal interest in the topic, has about this particular "parenting method." It sets children up to equate abuse with professions of love. It sets them up to think a beating is an acceptable response to bad behavior. It sets them up to seek out abusers. It sets them up to teach their children to do the same.

 

I wish all gentle, compassionate Christians would speak up and put a stop to these atrocities done in the name of God. People like this will never hear it from someone like me, but maybe they'll hear it from people like Daisy.

[Retired]

I will just say that I was raised in a very holiness, spank, home. I grew up hating the church, my parents, and God. I saw myself as a terrible sinner, that would never do good. I went down a terrible alcohol, party rebellion until I finally me the real Jesus, full of grace and love.

 

Being raised in a good Christian home with parents that thought they were being biblical does not necessary mean biblical.

I am sorry but I honestly believe Christan's want to do right but instead of praying for Jesus to tell them how to discipline their children. They go with whatever some Evangelist, church or Christian authors tell them this is a sure plan to have a cheerful heart, obedient, non sinner child. Sorry there is no such thing.

 

Jesus has helped me be a grace based parent. I have never read the book with same title

 

I am not against spanking because it is biblical but it should only be used for limited misbehavior not for every foolish, childish behavior

 

I did give a spank for willful lying, disrespectful mouth. I did not spank for reasons that child being just a child.

 

I went through a journey to grace base parenting. When my oldest was around 3/4 I attended a fundamental baptist Church yeah I fell into the same junk I was raised with. I will say it only lasted about 6 months. They were really into "cheerful heart" first time obedience of kids. They had a church full of little statue kids sitting on the pews at age 2 afraid to move (IMO) I found my self spanking my little boy just like the OP spoke of doing. I still remember that pitiful day it still breaks my heart and he is now 17. Then God woke me up. I left that church and starting praying about how to raise my kids. I don't do parenting book. Jesus is my parenting adviser. My boys are teens and I make decision regarding them that other Christian parents don't agree with but Jesus is the only one thats opinion matters to me.

 

But Jesus does not beat us into submission to his will. He gently knocks at our heart.

 

I want say more. I am praying for you and your DH. I feel you really are doing what you think is best.

[kalphs]

I think her behavior (cry/obey, cry/not obey, ignore) is normal.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You say that she is not obeying happily the first time you direct her (sounds like you are trying to foster 'first time obedience' which seems popular in some conservative circles). You say that she is not complying because you are not holding her accountable by spanking.

 

She is not practicing 'first time obedience' because she is three years old. Period. She is a little kid. I do not believe FTO (when enforced by spanking) is normal or healthy. I have seen this in practice. It is painful to watch.

 

If you are spanking your daughter 10x per day then you are spanking her too much. I'm sorry. It is not working. It makes you feel bad. I disagree that God calls us to enforce either spanking or FTO.

 

I am not anti-spanking but I feel that the spanking you have described is not healthy.

:iagree:

[Garga]

From what I see in the bible, spanking is one method of discipline, but isn't the only one. That means that you don't HAVE to use it. It's just one option of many.

 

I've preferred to go with the "those who don't work, don't eat" methods. (If you won't clean your room, then you can't watch tv.)

 

I personally hated spanking and only did it a few times. I did it the "right way" where I wasn't angry, and it was for willful disobedience, but I just couldn't do it without feeling sick about it.

 

It was a relief to realize that spanking wasn't required by God. It was just one method, and I also think we should be super careful to fully understand why he would say to do that and what the circumstances are when it should be done. I felt like I was playing with fire and messing up my kids when I spanked them.

 

 

My general parenting style:

 

Lots and lots of hugs throughout the day, especially right before I ask them to do something.

Making them re-do what they were supposed to do until they do it correctly (like if they are to put something away and they stomp, I make them re-put it away minus the stomp.)

Telling them, "Let's try that again. When I say, 'Put that away,' this time you will say, 'Ok, Mom,' and put it away (instead of yelling NO!)"

More and more hugs.

Gentle words when they get angry or sad. "You are so sad to take a nap! Poor sweetie. I will hug you before you take your nap." They still take the nap, but feel loved.

 

That's the general gist of how I do things.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Garga

[LaissezFaire]

I do not really meet the criteria you laid out in your OP but as a Christian and a mom I felt a strong urge to respond anyway. I believe the way you are responding to your child is not healthy and not even biblical. I have heard the 'spare the rod' argument 1000 times and I think it just may be the verse that is taken out of context more than any other. Jesus often told parables and used metaphors, why is this never considered for the 'spare the rod' verse? I believe we are being told not to spare the 'rod' of discipline not a literal rod. I cannot fathom Jesus ever condoning whipping of a child. After all 'Jesus loves the little children".

 

Your daughter is THREE. She has had a short time on this earth. On top of that God has given her a strong personality trait. However, I fully believe that strong willed, stubborn people are the ones who go far in this world. They are often the most driven and dedicated. This is a trait that the Lord has given to your child for you to help mold and shape, not strip away.

 

As an adult I often go about my duties for the day without a cheerful spirit. I do not always want to clean up the spills for the hundredth time and I do it grudgingly. I can tell you that if someone- say my husband- came up behind me and smacked me one for being in a bad mood it would NOT break my will but I might break his face. Where is the difference between a parent smacking their child for a bad attitude and a husband smacking their wife for one? One is called corporal punishment, one is called spousal abuse and yet they are the exact same thing. This is wrong on so many levels.

 

Please do not break your child's will! In doing so you break her spirit. You don't want a broken child, you want a child who does the right thing because she desires it in her heart, not because she lives in fear. I hope you rad through this all. I thought a response from a Christian who does not believe in spanking was a good perspective. I am praying now that the spanking stops so this strong little girl has a chance to be the girl God made her to be.

[Alyce]

May I recommend you get a book called "The Strong Willed Child" can't remember the authors name. You can probably find it in the library. It explains what happening and gives lot of good advice on how to handle a child like this. I am pro spanking but there are times when it doesn't work and you have to do something else. It sounds like in this case she knows what the consequence will be, she just doesn't care. It's no longer teaching her anything. It will only make her fight you more. Find this book and read it. It is an eye opener

[Heatherwith4]

I wish all gentle, compassionate Christians would speak up and put a stop to these atrocities done in the name of God. People like this will never hear it from someone like me, but maybe they'll hear it from people like Daisy.

 

Excellent point. It is so easy to get duped into the idea of spanking your kids into cheerful FTO. It shouldn't be, but it is. It is so the opposite of who Jesus was and is to us. I'm really thankful for people on these boards, whether believers or not, who have taught me there are other, better methods besides spanking. I doubt my dd will ever even get a spanking. However, that does not mean she will be ruined or poorly behaved.

 

I will stop rambling now. :)

[Kipling]

May I recommend you get a book called "The Strong Willed Child" can't remember the authors name.

 

Dr. James Dobson

[PygmyShrew]

Corraleno, in this post on page 15 which I quoted below, quoted my post (page 12)before posting her response here. When I pushed the QUOTE button only her quote showed up and the background (my original post) didn't go with it. So I wanted to clarify since my post (on page 12 for the 0.001% of you conservatives on here who may have a hankering to read it) which she referenced didn't show up with this quote of hers. I didn't recommend a lifetime of spanking this child 10x/day --- I just encouraged the mom that spanking this many times a day will only take A FEW DAYS. I don't know that I mentioned the 3 year old "questioning authority" but I do see the child's crying/whining/ignoring mom's basic commands is disobedient and a 3 year old's way of "questioning authority."

 

I can tell you that frequent spankings for lack of instant obedience, or (gasp) questioning authority, did not make my "heart sweet." It made my heart angry and resentful and it made me leave home as soon as I was able. My mother still buys into this #$%*, despite the fact that only 1 of her four kids will even talk to her. (And the one kid who still speaks to her is in an abusive marriage, so obviously she learned that lesson well. :glare: )

 

I'm sorry, but I find the idea of hitting a child 10x/day and then telling them it's to "make their heart sweet" downright sick. :ack2:

 

Jackie

 

Sorry this was your experience.

 

My parents’ profound love and devotion to us and to one another was so manifest in our home that I can’t identify with ever feeling ANY shred of anger or resentment to my folks. And we were expected to obey their commands (which were quite reasonable) the first time they said them and we weren't allowed to whine or complain. As we got older there was a reasonable "appeal process" that we could do respectfully to understand why they asked such and such, but -- as children -- we weren't allowed to ask "why" until we had done the thing/obeyed. And they were fair and reasonable, they didn't exasperate us with inappropriate commands. We felt things were very just and fair.

 

I have NOT one memory of feeling a sense of anger or injustly treated or that they were ever once over the top in any disciplining moment.

 

They were such kind, loving and respectful people. They had LONG established a foundation of love and trust on which to begin their disciplining of us. Their love and concern for us was apparent and we felt safe and secure and very happy in it. We felt loved and respected even while receiving our discipline. It was always fair and controlled (never given in anger). Everything they did for us was from a spirit of love – discipline and all; we knew it was fair and for our good.

 

My siblings and I got along beautifully with them and, even in our teen years, we loved being with our parents. We think the world of them to this day and have a great relationship.

 

Even among my many friends (and my spouse) whose parents used corporal discipline, I can’t think of one of us who feel anything but love and gratitude for our folks and none of us feel that getting spankings derailed our love and trust relationship in the least.

 

I don’t know what all the dynamic was in your home, or what kind of love/trust/respect dynamic there was, but if a parent simply angrily spanks a child without this foundation, then this parent is NOT disciplining according to the Bible’s standards.

The Bible doesn’t isolate disciplining from its bazillion references to loving one another more than ourselves. Again, I don’t know what kind of respect or trust your mom earned from you and your siblings, but I spoke from my experience.

 

We use corporal punishment in our home now and my husband and I have great relationships with our kids; they are obedient, compliant and happy kiddos from my vantage point and from on-lookers too as I hear praise from others on this front quite frequently.

 

And I give God the glory because our applying his wisdom and being faithful to follow His commands in this area of lovingly “spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet” is bearing beautiful fruit.

Edited November 5, 2010 by PygmyShrew

[bzymom]

This is difficult to respond to without offending someone along the way, but it breaks my heart to hear of a 3 year old being spanked in this way. If it were a member of my family, or a friend or neighbor, I would intervene without hesitation.

 

Teaching a three year old to cheerfully obey every command put upon them by adults is frightening to me. To then expect them to differentiate between that expectation and abuse is much to ask of a baby.

 

Little ones are often frustrating, but also often charming and silly and sweet and affectionate. It takes a lot of patience to guide them and teach them to be respectful and kind, and to rein in the impulsive behaviors that take them off course. Teaching it by example is the easiest, clearest way.

 

I hope you can find some direction that creates peace in your home.

[Sophia]

Sorry this was your experience.

My parents’ profound love and devotion to us and to one another was so manifest in our home that I can’t identify with ever feeling ANY shred of anger or resentment to my folks. And we were expected to obey their commands (which were quite reasonable) the first time they said them and we weren't allowed to whine or complain. As we got older there was a reasonable "appeal process" that we could do respectfully to understand why they asked such and such, but -- as children -- we weren't allowed to ask "why" until we had done the thing/obeyed. And they were fair and reasonable, they didn't exasperate us with inappropriate commands. We felt things were very just and fair.

 

I have NOT one memory of feeling a sense of anger or injustly treated or that they were ever once over the top in any disciplining moment.

They were such kind, loving and respectful people. They had LONG established a foundation of love and trust on which to begin their disciplining of us. Their love and concern for us was apparent and we felt safe and secure and very happy in it. We felt loved and respected even while receiving our discipline. It was always fair and controlled (never given in anger). Everything they did for us was from a spirit of love – discipline and all; we knew it was fair and for our good.

My siblings and I got along beautifully with them and, even in our teen years, we loved being with our parents. We think the world of them to this day and have a great relationship.

Even among my many friends (and my spouse) whose parents used corporal discipline, I can’t think of one of us who feel anything but love and gratitude for our folks and none of us feel that getting spankings derailed our love and trust relationship in the least.

I don’t know what all the dynamic was in your home, or what kind of love/trust/respect dynamic there was, but if a parent simply angrily spanks a child without this foundation, then this parent is NOT disciplining according to the Bible’s standards.

The Bible doesn’t isolate disciplining from its bazillion references to loving one another more than ourselves. Again, I don’t know what kind of respect or trust your mom earned from you and your siblings, but I spoke from my experience.

We use corporal punishment in our home now and my husband and I have great relationships with our kids; they are obedient, compliant and happy kiddos from my vantage point and from on-lookers too as I hear praise from others on this front quite frequently.

And I give God the glory because our applying his wisdom and being faithful to follow His commands in this area of lovingly “spanking the bottom to make the heart sweet†is bearing beautiful fruit.

 

Thank you for sharing this.

[Guest Noelove]

Why not rise above the cycle of abuse, why not use God and all his glory to parent your child without spanking. Can you do that? Are you strong enough? Brave enough? Godly enough to at least try and not abuse your child?