CC: breaking your child's will...

[treestarfae]

This is for those of you have/had a willful/stubborn child and who believe spanking is Biblical - I am really struggling and need some advice!

 

Let me share a bit about my dd (JUST turned 3). She is the first one to tell you she likes your shirt, she had a fun time today, it is pretty outside, *always* says thank you...and cries at the drop of a hat - no kidding. I tell her it's naptime (cry); She has to go to the bathroom (cry) - I've just concluded she is a very emotional girl.

 

Her sister bosses her around ALL the time and most of the time she just does it/go w/the flow kind of thing...does that make her laid back?

 

Okay, so that's the background I guess...here's the issue: When I tell her to do something that she does not want to do, her responses are 1. cry and obey 2. cry and not obey 3. ignore me and not obey 4. poke around and 1/2way obey...none of these are acceptable. Most of the time (sadly), I will say her name very sternly and tell her to do it again and then #1 will happen. I have realized that she is not obeying right away happily because I am not expecting it of her/keeping her accountable. So, I have decided to nip it in the bud. If she does not obey the 1st time, quickly, & w/a happy heart, she will get spanked. So, she has been spanked 10x today :\

 

Sometimes I wonder if she understands and is seeing how much she can get away with or if she really doesn't understand so today she was doing the wrong thing...I try to *never* threaten or 'reward' by saying, 'if you do this, you won't get this' but I wanted to see her level of understanding so I said, we were going to watch Elmo's World after this but since you are doing x, I guess we won't be able to...guess what, she fixed her behavior immediately and did the right thing. She is a VERY smart girl (sometimes, I think to her detriment).

 

So anyway, w/the spanking...my dh just says keep at it, she'll learn but she really doesn't seem to be. She seems just so stubborn (like I was at that age)! My dilemma is this: I want to stick w/it b/c God says to *and* for personal reasons - I was *never* taught or encouraged to obey anyone and was encouraged to, well, be wise in my own eyes - you can imagine how detrimental that has been in my adult life with employers, friends, and my dh. I feel like if she can learn from an early age to obey, show respect, be quick to listen & slow to speak, etc., etc., etc., she will be happier in the long run...however, I am also afraid that I will 'break her spirit' and she will just turn hateful & resentful. After a spanking, she always wants to hug me (I always ask, never want to force that) and is perfectly fine afterward but it's like the 'why' never clicks for her!

 

I hope this all makes sense and I hope someone has btdt, is (almost) on the other side and can help me...I want to give up so many times but it is *my* job to stay diligent so I keep at it...I just want to make sure I won't mess her up and she will not lose her happy, thankful heart in the process...:confused:

 

I am 8mo pg so I'm sure *my* emotions have something to do w/these defeated emotions but... :)

It sounds like the sister has more control over her than you do. I would back off the big sister issue and you'd get better results.

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

I think she needs a do-over.

 

"sweetie, I'm glad you obeyed me, but you were crying and whining. So now I need you to do it again but with a cheerful attitude."

 

rinse repeat.

 

:iagree:

 

Also, if you know something in particular is a struggle for her then remind her BEFORE you ask what, for example, obedience is. Like, "Honey, What are the 3 parts of obedience? That's right! Now mommy would like you to stop playing with your toys, put them away, and then go help mommy in the kitchen. Let's practice obeying!!!!" Child stops playing and starts putting the toys away. "Good Job obeying mama!! (hugs, kisses, high five) I'll see you in the kitchen in a few minutes! Love you!"

 

Now, I know from experience the above training is much more effort on my part than spanking. BUT, encouragement and praise should be the rule and spanking the exception, IMO.

Edited November 5, 2010 by mommyjen

[Hedgehog]

I haven't read all the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating some. I'm also sorry if what I'm going to write offends anyone - so if you are against spanking, it might be better for you not to read this post.

 

I can honestly say that my methods have worked well with my dc so far. I have great relationships developing with all of them and there's a lot of smiles, laughter, love and hugs around here - far more of that than any kind of discipline, which has always been my aim.

 

I have 4 dc, and the youngest one is nearly 3. I believe in spanking as a Biblical discipline, but I am not sure that I would spank for the same reasons as you. My dc only ever get spanked on their bottoms. I do it with my hand, therefore, it will always physically hurt me more than it hurts them because the area of a child's body that has the most fat is their bottom and hurts the least. My hand has virtually no fat on the palm, therefore it will hurt me a lot. I believe this is an excellent way of ensuring that I don't overdo it.

 

I spank in private. No child should be humiliated by others seeing them receive such discipline; it's between God, me, and the child.

 

My dc know they will receive a spank, without counting or extra warning if they do either of the following:

 

- they directly disobey an instruction that dh or I have given them (age appropriate and bearing in mind that very young ones have short memories; you know your own child)

- lying

 

It's very rare for me to lay a finger on my 11yo or 9yo - in fact I can't remember the last time I did so - and it's been several days since I spanked DS5. DD2 does get spanked more frequently but again that's not even once a day. IMO spanking is a last resort, and therefore I will put some kind of positive motivation in front of the child first before I consider what negative consequences I can use.

 

I have to say that I wouldn't expect an average 3yo to be cheerful over any discipline that I meted out, whether it be corporal or otherwise. At 2 and 3yo, I would be focussing on the obedience alone, and only when that is usually achieved would I then think about what attitude they had during the process. Having said that, I don't permit my dc to make a huge fuss every time I discipline. Spanking hurts; a child will almost always cry. You spank, you hug, and when you feel that they have expressed their hurt enough, then you take steps to ensure that they stop - talk quietly, distract, move around. The discipline is over with and no-one needs to focus on it any more. It's forgotten in the same way that the Lord wipes clean our sins and knows them no more.

 

IMO the last and most critical part of the cycle of discipline is the communication I have with my child afterwards. I believe it's crucial to take the time to tell them of my confidence in their ability to develop good behaviour. We then start afresh with a positive attitude.

 

HTH.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Hedgehog

[kmacnchs]

among all the absurdity (not that there was much), there was some GREAT advice and again, I really appreciate it. It's always good to hear about something from someone who has been there and from a different angle.

 

Obviously I have been mulling over this a lot recently and there are some things I realized that you guys would not know but it helped (along w/your advice) me see things a bit clearer:

 

I have been giving her a lot more responsibility lately and I think that may be part of her resistance. (one example is that she used to wipe when she peed but we wiped when she pooped - well, she started lying -saying she pooped when she didn't - b/c she didn't want to wash her hands (wiping means washing hands) so now she has to do both and she doesn't like that).

 

I also have been concentrating more on training her brother in obedience (he's 18 mo, 'nuff said) and so I have been praising her less for obedience and more just expecting it - thank you for reminding me that BOTH are important! :)

 

lots more was said that was helpful, just wanted to say thanks again :)

[Oops, duplicate account :/]

among all the absurdity (not that there was much), there was some GREAT advice and again, I really appreciate it. It's always good to hear about something from someone who has been there and from a different angle.

 

Obviously I have been mulling over this a lot recently and there are some things I realized that you guys would not know but it helped (along w/your advice) me see things a bit clearer:

 

I have been giving her a lot more responsibility lately and I think that may be part of her resistance. (one example is that she used to wipe when she peed but we wiped when she pooped - well, she started lying -saying she pooped when she didn't - b/c she didn't want to wash her hands (wiping means washing hands) so now she has to do both and she doesn't like that).

 

I also have been concentrating more on training her brother in obedience (he's 18 mo, 'nuff said) and so I have been praising her less for obedience and more just expecting it - thank you for reminding me that BOTH are important! :)

 

lots more was said that was helpful, just wanted to say thanks again :)

:grouphug: mama. Training them up in the way they should go is hard work!! We all need encouragement and wisdom from time to time. It's wonderful that you're for taking your responsibility seriously.

[MelanieM]

My dc only ever get spanked on their bottoms. I do it with my hand, therefore, it will always physically hurt me more than it hurts them because the area of a child's body that has the most fat is their bottom and hurts the least. My hand has virtually no fat on the palm, therefore it will hurt me a lot. I believe this is an excellent way of ensuring that I don't overdo it.

 

We don't hit our kids, but my husband and I are fond of smacking each other on the clothed bottom when the opportunity arises. (You know... someone has their butt in the air when they're tying shoes? Impossible to pass up.) I can tell you that getting a smack stings my backside far, far more than it does my hand when I've given one. So, when's the last time you got a spanking? You might want to test your theory out a little more because honestly, it sounds completely ridiculous to me.

 

To the OP, I think it's great that you're reaching out for advice. I don't buy this "God wants me to hit my kids" schtick, but I surely believe he whispers in our ear to guide us to better behaviour. So I hope you are able to take the wisdom offered here and modify your approach to one that is more gentle and loving for all concerned.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Katy - I've been impressed with how gracious you have been in reading and responding to those who have posted in this thread. I can see that you are really wanting to be a good mom to your kids and that is great!

[Gratia271]

your post was VERY helpful - I'll just highlight a few parts that struck me (I had never thought about it that way kind of things)

 

 

 

thank you again, really, even with some of the mean and outrageous comments, these make it worth it to post some personal questions :001_smile:

 

You're welcome. I know where you are, and it isn't easy for us logical moms to raise emotional girls. Feel free to pm me any time, and I will pray for you for guidance and direction. Please do try to find someone to give you a well needed break! :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

 

I also have been concentrating more on training her brother in obedience (he's 18 mo, 'nuff said) and so I have been praising her less for obedience and more just expecting it - thank you for reminding me that BOTH are important! :)

 

 

Please don't starting hitting the 18 month old.

 

What you are doing with your daughter is child abuse. You and your husband need to seek help from a professional and stop the violence you are perpetrating on this child. It is indecent to hit a child 9 or 10 times a day.

 

Heart-breaking.

 

Bill

Edited November 5, 2010 by Spy Car

[Hedgehog]

We don't hit our kids, but my husband and I are fond of smacking each other on the clothed bottom when the opportunity arises. (You know... someone has their butt in the air when they're tying shoes? Impossible to pass up.) I can tell you that getting a smack stings my backside far, far more than it does my hand when I've given one. So, when's the last time you got a spanking? You might want to test your theory out a little more because honestly, it sounds completely ridiculous to me.

 

Well you asked.. so I'll tell you. Before dh and I had children, we discussed how we would discipline our dc, and we actually spanked each other then to see what it was like. Sound bizarre? It was, but at least we do know that spanking hurts our hands more than it hurts our backsides. Believe me, I wouldn't put something on a public forum that I couldn't substantiate.

[LibraryLover]

:confused: It sounds like you're not even picking your battles. The whole toilet/handwashing/refusing to help thing...really? She is 3.

[Gratia271]

We don't hit our kids, but my husband and I are fond of smacking each other on the clothed bottom when the opportunity arises. (You know... someone has their butt in the air when they're tying shoes? Impossible to pass up.) I can tell you that getting a smack stings my backside far, far more than it does my hand when I've given one. So, when's the last time you got a spanking?

 

DH and I tease each other this way all the time. On a side-note, my son and my brother's four boys (in fact all boys I have been around) love to smack each other on the butt..... I have decided it's a male thing, particularly in athletics. I haven't witnessed any of them wince at it.

[kmacnchs]

There is a verse that says when he is old he will not depart from it. It gives no promises in the 3 year old years. ;)

 

VERY good point...it's hard to see past where I am - I don't want her to even be 3! I want her to go back to being 2 - it was SOO much better/sweeter/obedient,etc. :)

[Hedgehog]

Katy - I've been impressed with how gracious you have been in reading and responding to those who have posted in this thread. I can see that you are really wanting to be a good mom to your kids and that is great!

 

:iagree: wholeheartedly.

[Rosie_0801]

The centre in our brain for impulse control doesn't fully mature until our mid-20's. There seems to be a burst of maturity at about 5 or 6 though. So, neurologically speaking, you can relax a bit while you're pregnant and hormonal, and still be right on track with Miss 3.

 

:)

Rosie

[Pretty in Pink]

OP, you have really been kind and decent in your responses throughout this thread. :grouphug:

[MelanieM]

Well you asked.. so I'll tell you. Before dh and I had children, we discussed how we would discipline our dc, and we actually spanked each other then to see what it was like. Sound bizarre? It was, but at least we do know that spanking hurts our hands more than it hurts our backsides. Believe me, I wouldn't put something on a public forum that I couldn't substantiate.

 

I guess you've got a tougher backside and/or more sensitive hands than I do.

[PygmyShrew]

This is for those of you have/had a willful/stubborn child and who believe spanking is Biblical - I am really struggling and need some advice!

 

Let me share a bit about my dd (JUST turned 3). She is the first one to tell you she likes your shirt, she had a fun time today, it is pretty outside, *always* says thank you...and cries at the drop of a hat - no kidding. I tell her it's naptime (cry); She has to go to the bathroom (cry) - I've just concluded she is a very emotional girl.

 

Her sister bosses her around ALL the time and most of the time she just does it/go w/the flow kind of thing...does that make her laid back?

 

Okay, so that's the background I guess...here's the issue: When I tell her to do something that she does not want to do, her responses are 1. cry and obey 2. cry and not obey 3. ignore me and not obey 4. poke around and 1/2way obey...none of these are acceptable. Most of the time (sadly), I will say her name very sternly and tell her to do it again and then #1 will happen. I have realized that she is not obeying right away happily because I am not expecting it of her/keeping her accountable. So, I have decided to nip it in the bud. If she does not obey the 1st time, quickly, & w/a happy heart, she will get spanked. So, she has been spanked 10x today :\

 

Sometimes I wonder if she understands and is seeing how much she can get away with or if she really doesn't understand so today she was doing the wrong thing...I try to *never* threaten or 'reward' by saying, 'if you do this, you won't get this' but I wanted to see her level of understanding so I said, we were going to watch Elmo's World after this but since you are doing x, I guess we won't be able to...guess what, she fixed her behavior immediately and did the right thing. She is a VERY smart girl (sometimes, I think to her detriment).

 

So anyway, w/the spanking...my dh just says keep at it, she'll learn but she really doesn't seem to be. She seems just so stubborn (like I was at that age)! My dilemma is this: I want to stick w/it b/c God says to *and* for personal reasons - I was *never* taught or encouraged to obey anyone and was encouraged to, well, be wise in my own eyes - you can imagine how detrimental that has been in my adult life with employers, friends, and my dh. I feel like if she can learn from an early age to obey, show respect, be quick to listen & slow to speak, etc., etc., etc., she will be happier in the long run...however, I am also afraid that I will 'break her spirit' and she will just turn hateful & resentful. After a spanking, she always wants to hug me (I always ask, never want to force that) and is perfectly fine afterward but it's like the 'why' never clicks for her!

 

I hope this all makes sense and I hope someone has btdt, is (almost) on the other side and can help me...I want to give up so many times but it is *my* job to stay diligent so I keep at it...I just want to make sure I won't mess her up and she will not lose her happy, thankful heart in the process...:confused:

 

I am 8mo pg so I'm sure *my* emotions have something to do w/these defeated emotions but... :)

 

 

Firstly, let me say that I think you're doing the right thing (I only read the first 2 pages of posts and my guess is that I'll be one of the few that concurs with your approach). Sounds like you're a Shepherding a Child's Heart (Tedd Tripp) fan.

 

Since she's a NEW three, I think she's old enough to begin learning the concepts of obeying you (especially on SIMPLE tasks like picking up toys, coming when called, etc.) when you ask in a normal tone (shouldn't have to be loud), the first time, and without complaint. Now, she's not old enough to likely understand the concept of "complaining" but she's old enough to understand what behaviors (crying, whining, tantruming) you're referring to when you say, "No whine" or "No complaining" (Pick the same one or two phrases for this and stick with them especially in this new 3 year). And you can keep it THAT simple for a long time. At the 2nd half of this year, you can start elaborating more on the concept more, but for now, I'd just give my command and as SOON as the whine/cry started, I'd interrupt with a finger over my mouth and "Hannah (whatever her name), NO whining. No complaining. Happy heart please". And, if she doesn't stop immediately then I'd CALMLY (never in anger) give her a spanking and explain why you had to do this -- I always said to mine, "When Mommy spanks the bottom __________" and my kid would finish the rest of the statement with "...it makes the heart sweet." So, after the spank, she'll cry and seek your comfort which you'll give and, immediately, tell her that you're going to try it again and that THIS time you want to see a happy heart from your sweet girl.

 

Sounds like you've realized that it's gone on too long and you're trying to get on top of it. The spanking 10x/day will only be a FEW days if you're consistent.

 

Now.....I would work on big sister's bossing also as that's not a good habit for their relationship either.

[kmacnchs]

Please don't starting hitting the 18 month old.

 

I know that disciplining is part of training but in this instance, when I am speaking of training my 18mo I am talking about REALLY concentrating on when he does well at obeying right away with a happy heart and verbalizing and b/c I am doing that, frankly, I have forgotten (guilty!) to encourage dd2 as much as I used to!

[EKS]

When my son cried over every little thing I put him in his room every single time he did it. It took a few days and then he never did it again.

[kmacnchs]

:confused: It sounds like you're not even picking your battles. The whole toilet/handwashing/refusing to help thing...really? She is 3.

 

not sure if this makes me lazy or just an avoider but I was trying to not set her up to lie. when we wiped some and she wiped some, it made her want to lie so that she would not have to wipe. i thought by making her responsible for all of it, we would not have the lying issue...seemed logical to me...? am i missing something

[Hedgehog]

I guess you've got a tougher backside and/or more sensitive hands than I do.

 

Maybe so :001_smile:

 

I'm thinking that in order to be helpful to the OP, it would be better to stay away from the whole "spanking is ok vs. spanking is abuse" argument if possible. (I'm not aiming this at you, Melanie, it's a general thought.) It won't achieve anything because there will always be differences of opinion and by nature the subject is emotive. If we can focus on understanding what the OP is saying, and answering specifically what she is asking, then we are much more likely to be helpful to her. Besides which, if it gets too unpleasant it will be closed down. JMO! ;)

[kmacnchs]

The centre in our brain for impulse control doesn't fully mature until our mid-20's. There seems to be a burst of maturity at about 5 or 6 though. So, neurologically speaking, you can relax a bit while you're pregnant and hormonal, and still be right on track with Miss 3.

 

:)

Rosie

 

I really appreciate your understanding of my baby-filled body :)

[Joanne]

not sure if this makes me lazy or just an avoider but I was trying to not set her up to lie. when we wiped some and she wiped some, it made her want to lie so that she would not have to wipe. i thought by making her responsible for all of it, we would not have the lying issue...seemed logical to me...? am i missing something

 

I'd "make" her wash her hands after toileting, every time, regardless. Make the lie superfluous. If she doesn't wash her hands, bring her back to the bathroom and make sure she washes.

[BethInNH]

among all the absurdity (not that there was much), there was some GREAT advice and again, I really appreciate it. It's always good to hear about something from someone who has been there and from a different angle.

 

Obviously I have been mulling over this a lot recently and there are some things I realized that you guys would not know but it helped (along w/your advice) me see things a bit clearer:

 

I have been giving her a lot more responsibility lately and I think that may be part of her resistance. (one example is that she used to wipe when she peed but we wiped when she pooped - well, she started lying -saying she pooped when she didn't - b/c she didn't want to wash her hands (wiping means washing hands) so now she has to do both and she doesn't like that).

 

I also have been concentrating more on training her brother in obedience (he's 18 mo, 'nuff said) and so I have been praising her less for obedience and more just expecting it - thank you for reminding me that BOTH are important! :)

 

lots more was said that was helpful, just wanted to say thanks again :)

 

I find it very disturbing that you would come on a PUBLIC forum to ask advice on how to break your toddlers will (and that is what you are doing). When in fact, I suspect all you are really doing is looking for permission to continue abusing your toddler (and now a baby as well) and looking for a pat on the back. This is obvious by your joking dismissal (and calling it absurdity?)of advice given to by anyone here concerned by your discipline methods.

Sorry to break it to you, but while you may find a few misguided souls on here who will

gladly encourage you to continue this ridiculous "to train up a child" charade- most of us on here see it for what it is- child abuse. Your post declaring yourself an "un-emotional person who is annoyed by crying" sent a chill down my spine- I am very worried for your children.

Please, please find some professional (non-Pearl oriented) help.

[aggieamy]

Please excuse my completely off topic attempt to light the mood of this thread. There are a few things I must comment on.

 

http://www.psywarrior.com/psyhist.html Lots of great tips here. I am excited to have found such great parenting information.

 

Reminds me of a t-shirt I'd love to own: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

 

I would like to invite both you ladies to tea if you are ever in the Kansas City area. You both sound like you've got great senses of humor.

 

We don't hit our kids, but my husband and I are fond of smacking each other on the clothed bottom when the opportunity arises. (You know... someone has their butt in the air when they're tying shoes? Impossible to pass up.) I can tell you that getting a smack stings my backside far, far more than it does my hand when I've given one. So, when's the last time you got a spanking? You might want to test your theory out a little more because honestly, it sounds completely ridiculous to me.

 

 

DH and I also spank each other but not the kids (unless they happen to run naked past me from the shower to the bedroom - how can you resist!). My hand never stings but my bum sure does when DH smacks it. Maybe I'm not smacking his bum correctly. :001_smile: Melanie, you are also invited to tea.

[Coffeetime]

If I knew you personally I would call child protective services, that's how bad it looks on the outside.

 

The OP addressed her post specifically to people who believed in spanking- probably to avoid posts like yours that are honestly just presumptive and hurtful. While I believe she needs to try another method, to me her posts sound like she's a great mom, just at a loss for what to try next and looking for some advice. :)

[kmacnchs]

I'd "make" her wash her hands after toileting, every time, regardless. Make the lie superfluous. If she doesn't wash her hands, bring her back to the bathroom and make sure she washes.

 

okay, laziness is the answer :) I never made them wash when I wiped (I am all about saving time) :)

[kmacnchs]

I find it very disturbing that you would come on a PUBLIC forum to ask advice on how to break your toddlers will (and that is what you are doing). When in fact, I suspect all you are really doing is looking for permission to continue abusing your toddler (and now a baby as well) and looking for a pat on the back. This is obvious by your joking dismissal (and calling it absurdity?)of advice given to by anyone here concerned by your discipline methods.

Sorry to break it to you, but while you may find a few misguided souls on here who will

gladly encourage you to continue this ridiculous "to train up a child" charade- most of us on here see it for what it is- child abuse. Your post declaring yourself an "un-emotional person who is annoyed by crying" sent a chill down my spine- I am very worried for your children.

Please, please find some professional (non-Pearl oriented) help.

 

I understand there are 13 pp but it is obvious you have not read them. the point was how to train her WITHOUT breaking her will - that is what I DO NOT want to do - that is what I was looking for advice about.

 

I have not responded to any of the absurd posts until this one...congrats :glare:

[Joanne]

okay, laziness is the answer :) I never made them wash when I wiped (I am all about saving time) :)

 

I have 3 closely spaced kids. :) I understand.

 

I don't know if you've ever read my page on Get Off Your Butt parenting? My site it old (static, and archived) but it still has some useful stuff. In any case, I'm not a fan of FTO, spanking or "happy hearts". I am, however, a fan of compliance, obedience and discipline.

 

The page I send you won't be spanking = abuse, I promise. :001_smile: It won't be namby-pamby, permissiveness, either. ;)

 

Get Off Your Butt Parenting Page

[BethInNH]

I understand there are 13 pp but it is obvious you have not read them. the point was how to train her WITHOUT breaking her will - that is what I DO NOT want to do - that is what I was looking for advice about.

 

I have not responded to any of the absurd posts until this one...congrats :glare:

 

Actually, I have read every single post on this thread :)

And although you have stated that you did not mean to title your original post "breaking your child's will" It sounds to me that is exactly what you are trying to accomplish- here is a direct quote from your first post "I have realized that she is not obeying right away happily because I am not expecting it of her/keeping her accountable. So, I have decided to nip it in the bud. If she does not obey the 1st time, quickly, & w/a happy heart, she will get spanked. So, she has been spanked 10x today :\" Perhaps I am confused, but complete compliance at all times (with a smile) doesn't bring to mind visions of someone who has a will of their own:001_huh:

[Joker]

The OP addressed her post specifically to people who believed in spanking- probably to avoid posts like yours that are honestly just presumptive and hurtful. While I believe she needs to try another method, to me her posts sound like she's a great mom, just at a loss for what to try next and looking for some advice. :)

 

 

There have been many who said they're not anti-spanking but believe the OP needs some help with the disciplining. I was spanked as a child and have spanked my dds -BUT never 10x in one day and definitely not every day. I can count on one hand how many times I've spanked both dds. I think what is so disturbing is that the OP has spanked a 3 yr. old 10x in one day. One can "believe" in spanking and still think its being used incorrectly.

[Trish]

Is spanking also a New Testament thing, or just Old Testament? It's so hard for me to picture Jesus spanking a child. Or Mary. Or Joseph. I'm sure they disciplined, but...

[Coffeetime]

There have been many who said they're not anti-spanking but believe the OP needs some help with the disciplining. I was spanked as a child and have spanked my dds -BUT never 10x in one day and definitely not every day. I can count on one hand how many times I've spanked both dds. I think what is so disturbing is that the OP has spanked a 3 yr. old 10x in one day. One can "believe" in spanking and still think its being used incorrectly.

:iagree:And I wrote a post earlier stating so. However the posts that are accusing her of child abuse and talking about calling CPS are IMO unreasonable and that was what I was responding to. Probably foolishly, because I really don't want to get involved in a contraversy. :tongue_smilie:

[Parrothead]

There have been many who said they're not anti-spanking but believe the OP needs some help with the disciplining. I was spanked as a child and have spanked my dds -BUT never 10x in one day and definitely not every day. I can count on one hand how many times I've spanked both dds. I think what is so disturbing is that the OP has spanked a 3 yr. old 10x in one day. One can "believe" in spanking and still think its being used incorrectly.

:iagree:

[Teachin'Mine]

Katy I was looking at your signature. Monkey girl isn't this just turned 3yo is she? It may be helpful to read something about what typical behavior is for children at different ages. Someone else may have some better ideas as it's been a while, but this one is good:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_32?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=what+to+expect+the+toddler+years&sprefix=what+to+expect+the+toddler+years

 

I think it's important to make sure that your expectations are in keeping with what a child is developmentally ready to do.

[MelanieM]

DH and I also spank each other but not the kids (unless they happen to run naked past me from the shower to the bedroom - how can you resist!). My hand never stings but my bum sure does when DH smacks it. Maybe I'm not smacking his bum correctly. :001_smile: Melanie, you are also invited to tea.

 

Amy, apparently you and I have gone to the same school for bum-smacking lessons! I would most certainly love to visit and share a cup of tea with you any time. :)

[Happy2BaMom]

I'm a Christian but, I have to say, I am so glad I grew up in a non-Christian household. I shudder to think of having to grow up in a FTO household. It just sounds so incredibly high stress.

 

Sorry, a little aside there. Back to the OP: You sound like a concerned mother who wants to do the right thing and you are now looking at whether what you are doing is working. You have been very gracious to everyone who has posted here, and have been given some good alternative tools. I personally practice Love & Logic and LOVE the book "Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child". You can see it at Amazon. It might help. I do have one honest question...if you teach your daughter to show happiness even when she feels angry or sad or wretched inside, aren't you teaching her to be duplicitous?

 

AS an aside, I'm concerned that the only (stated) opinion your dh has is to "keep at it". He does not sound very connected (or concerned) about his child. You will probably need to bring him on board if you decide to change tactics.

 

Best of luck to you, though. It is not easy to be so PG and then taking this on as well.

 

Sorry for the disjointed rambling. I'm tired right now.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just one note - if by "keep at it" your dh means to be consistent, then I agree. We do need to be consistent for our children. But first make sure you know what you need to be consistent on.

[kmacnchs]

Just one note - if by "keep at it" your dh means to be consistent, then I agree. We do need to be consistent for our children. But first make sure you know what you need to be consistent on.

 

That IS what he means and yes, that is what I'm trying to do (making sure I know what I need to be consistent about). He is not an off-hands dad at all, he is just a lot less long-winded than me (isn't that just like a man? :)).

[jazzyfizzle]

Your post declaring yourself an "un-emotional person who is annoyed by crying" sent a chill down my spine-

 

 

:iagree:Glad to see I am not the only one.

[catalinakel]

Um, yeah. You need to save the spankings for major issues, not every infraction or you'll be slapping her all day. That won't teach her to obey, that will teach her to flinch every time you move suddenly.

 

She's 3. This is just how 3 year olds are.

 

You're pregnant, and that's how pregnant women are.

 

While I'm all for obedience, I'm thinking the real problem is not your very normal 3 year old, I'm thinking it is your (entirely normal) lack of patience. Perhaps, for now, the best thing will be to avoid some of the issues by not seeing what she's doing.

 

I also think it's fine for your hubby to tell you to keep at it, but it isn't his heart hurting as he slaps his kid what feels like all day.

 

For what it's worth, when my 3 yo is being like this, I pick her up and say "Oh dear, dd is feeling naughty. Oh dear, she will have to go and be naughty in bed." And I plonk her down there. If there was some unresolved action like picking something up, or apologising, she has to do that when she gets back up. If she won't, I repeat.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

:iagree:I agree, except for it being ok for the hubby to tell you to keep at it. Get some perspective. Take a rest.

[catalinakel]

I think her behavior (cry/obey, cry/not obey, ignore) is normal.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You say that she is not obeying happily the first time you direct her (sounds like you are trying to foster 'first time obedience' which seems popular in some conservative circles). You say that she is not complying because you are not holding her accountable by spanking.

 

She is not practicing 'first time obedience' because she is three years old. Period. She is a little kid. I do not believe FTO (when enforced by spanking) is normal or healthy. I have seen this in practice. It is painful to watch.

 

If you are spanking your daughter 10x per day then you are spanking her too much. I'm sorry. It is not working. It makes you feel bad. I disagree that God calls us to enforce either spanking or FTO.

 

I am not anti-spanking but I feel that the spanking you have described is not healthy.

 

:iagree:

[kmacnchs]

Okay, I'm sure many things make me weird and I'm sure this is one of them...but I have copied & pasted all of the helpful nuggets so I can read through them and really contemplate...2.5 pp...so thanks again for all the helpful advice. :)

 

here's to a better tomorrow :)

 

good night

[elizabeth]

Is spanking also a New Testament thing, or just Old Testament? It's so hard for me to picture Jesus spanking a child. Or Mary. Or Joseph. I'm sure they disciplined, but...

 

No it is not. It is just a no education or awareness of what is developmentally appropriate thing. Basically it is an ignorance thing.

[Snowfall]

That IS what he means and yes, that is what I'm trying to do (making sure I know what I need to be consistent about). He is not an off-hands dad at all, he is just a lot less long-winded than me (isn't that just like a man? :)).

 

From your description, it sounds more like he is a lot less patient than you and has completely unrealistic expectations about normal 3yo behavior. This is one thing that has concerned me since you mentioned your religious belief in subservience to your husband and then his refusal to give your DD warnings or countdowns. Top that off with his suggestion (but is it really a suggestion when you are subservient?) that you simply need to keep spanking her every time she doesn't smile, and we have a real recipe for disaster here! I'm very concerned, because if you believe you should do what he, as the head of the family, tells you to do, and his directions are completely off base, what is going to happen to your DD?

 

There is no reason anyone should ever refuse to give a child a 5 minute warning (unless, of course, there's some reason you can't in a particular situation). That's silly, and quite frankly, I worry about a parent who is so determined to dominate his child that he won't even do anything to make it easy on her. That's NOT Biblical! IT'S NOT! As someone has already quoted, Colossians specifically directs fathers not to exasperate their children. What does your husband think that means? It means to meet them where they are. It means not to have developmentally inappropriate expectations of them. It means to understand that they are children. It means to understand and accept that expecting things they cannot do, ordering them around, treating them badly (which is what all of those things are) will make them lose heart.

 

If some crazy person (or a few of them) wrote books telling you otherwise, that doesn't make them right. That makes them dishonest, because they are misrepresenting what the Bible says when they insist that children are supposed to obey instantly and without a tear or a word, or else they should be spanked. The Bible doesn't say that, doesn't hint at that. It isn't in there. Your husband needs to get in touch with reality. He needs to pray to his God. He needs to stop insisting your 3yo behave like a brainwashed adult (no normal adult would always obey instantly and with a smile - they'd have to be brainwashed or drugged) or else be spanked. I am worried for your little girl if he can't do that and you are obliged to follow his orders despite how wrong he is.

 

You WILL make her resentful. You WILL make her good at bottling up her feelings. You will NOT give her a "cheerful heart". Imagine your husband smacking you every time he told you to do something and you didn't smile and say, "Yes, of course, dear." Would that give you a happy heart? I doubt it.

[Corraleno]

I always said to mine, "When Mommy spanks the bottom __________" and my kid would finish the rest of the statement with "...it makes the heart sweet." So, after the spank, she'll cry and seek your comfort which you'll give and, immediately, tell her that you're going to try it again and that THIS time you want to see a happy heart from your sweet girl.

 

Sounds like you've realized that it's gone on too long and you're trying to get on top of it. The spanking 10x/day will only be a FEW days if you're consistent.

I can tell you that frequent spankings for lack of instant obedience, or (gasp) questioning authority, did not make my "heart sweet." It made my heart angry and resentful and it made me leave home as soon as I was able. My mother still buys into this #$%*, despite the fact that only 1 of her four kids will even talk to her. (And the one kid who still speaks to her is in an abusive marriage, so obviously she learned that lesson well. :glare: )

 

I'm sorry, but I find the idea of hitting a child 10x/day and then telling them it's to "make their heart sweet" downright sick. :ack2:

 

Jackie

[Daisy]

I'm a Christian but, I have to say, I am so glad I grew up in a non-Christian household. I shudder to think of having to grow up in a FTO household. It just sounds so incredibly high stress.

 

 

 

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Daisy

[justamouse]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

 

What Daisy said. 1000%.

[Corraleno]

It is incredibly stressful. To never measure up. To constantly have your every motive and attitude questioned. To have every misbehavior examined, dissected, & overspiritualized. To be told over and over and over again that God is displeased with you because you were tired or hungry or bored or immature. The iron fist of control over every single moment of your life. It is terrible.

 

I knew everything there was to know about the LAW. No one had to convince me I was chief among sinners. It was drilled into my head every single day.

 

Thankfully, I discovered GRACE.

 

I'm reminded of the story in the Bible about the man who was forgiven a huge debt and then went and beat up a man owing him on a few dollars. So many do this to their children. God has extended grace to them and they turn around and refuse to extend even 1/10th of that same grace to their children.

 

It is horribly sad.

THANK YOU for saying this! :hurray:

 

Daisy, you are one of my very favorite WTMers, and I always find your responses to be so thoughtful and compassionate. As someone whose upbringing was sadly similar to yours, I wish I could hug you in person.

:grouphug:

 

Jackie