CC: breaking your child's will...

[kmacnchs]

okay people, STOP GIVING ADVICE! j/k

 

mine are waking up though so I'll have to read later :)

 

thanks to some :)

 

I'll have to re-read many times but I have been wondering for a little while about the overly emotional child and spanking...just how it all works/or doesn't...

[just Jenny]

thought twice about posting.

 

Best to you Katy,

 

Jen

Edited November 5, 2010 by just Jenny

[northcoast]

I agree with a lot of what Kathleen in VA said. I have not read all the responses. My dd was spanked a lot at 1st. And it didn't seem to work. I found my daughter needed a transition period before going to the next thing - a heads up was coming next. Not "nap time, let's go now". Another thing, not everything is a moral issue that demands obedience. For example, "put a coat on, it's cold out." I expected my dd to put that coat on right now. Well, she is a warm blooded thing like her daddy and unlike me who is cold all the time. She is not going to die (on most days) if she doesn't wear a coat and she will get some thing when she is cold. At age 3, I made sure a coat was in the car. Now that she is 8, I tell her the weather and if she chooses not to take a coat, then no complaining of being cold.

 

If you issue a command, then it needs to be obeyed. No if's ands or buts. God's Word does say for children to obey their parents. However, not everything to be done should be a command. Pick your battles. Decide with your husband what should be obeyed - such as coming when called, household rules, willful defiance, etc Love her in the ways Kathleen suggested, PRAY, PRAY, PRAY, do "do overs", redirect, train, use logical consequences. Also, look at some unlying causes for disobedience. If she is hungry, feed her 1st. Tired?? Get her rest or a nap. It's hard to obey if physical needs aren't being met. Some choices can be given to a child without them ruling the roost. And one more thing, how to talk and train makes all the difference in the world. Harshness in many situations will not work. Think about how Jesus approached those in sin.

 

HTH. I don't mean to tell you what to do here. It's just some thoughts based on what we have gone through as CC. I'll pray for you and your family.

[forty-two]

I have found much better success by working to teach her *how* to work through her emotions and do what needs to be done anyway - I use *my* personal methods for persevering in spite of my emotions as a starting place.

 

Any specific insight about this? I am NOT emotional so I just don't get it. I just logically explain it to dd1 and she gets it - doesn't work that way for dd2...

 

I go with a two-step process - first getting everyone calmed down (often at this point I need calming down as much as dd4 :001_huh:), and then working on the actual directive in question. "Take a deep breath" is commonly heard around here. Giving everyone a drink of water is another - thirst accounts for a surprising number of meltdowns in our house. Healthy food, if they are probably hungry, especially if it is my fault that they haven't eaten in a while. Basically, I go down the HALT acronym - Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired/Thirsty - of things that get us humans, especially littles, out of sorts, and take care of them if possible, or give reassurance about the difficulty in obeying when one feels out of sorts, if it just isn't possible to take care of them right now. I pray for help and peace for everyone - sometimes out loud - if I am feeling at a loss.

 

Then I usually give dd the choice of sitting with me or calming down in her room until she is ready to obey - with nothing else being done until what was supposed to be done is done. When dd4 says she is ready (generally quite quickly), I've found that things go a *lot* better if I walk her over to where she needs to be and help her (nicely, in the manner of actual help, as I'd help her if she had asked nicely instead of disobeying) - letting her go on her own usually results in her not obeying and having to do the whole thing over again.

 

I'm working on Getting Off My Butt :tongue_smilie: (GOYB parenting) as soon as dd disobeys, not after she ignores my second or third order :glare:. I also use warnings - 2min, 1min, 30sec, 15sec, countdown from 10 - consistently. *I* don't like being interrupted and expected to drop everything instantly - it's really quite rude unless an emergency, imo - so I try to give dd the same courtesy. And it really helps minimize the meltdowns :thumbup:.

 

HTH

[flobee76]

I don't have any advice as we are going thru this same thing with our DS who is 3. I am so thankful for this thread. I am encouraged.

 

to the OP, I'll be praying for you and your husband as you try to find Grace-filled and gentle ways to Disciple the blessing God has given to you. :grouphug:

[astrid]

I agree.

 

God wants you to keep spanking her? Really?

 

I will never understand this philosophy. Please. Try something else, for the sake of your relationship with your daughter.

 

astrid

[Sophia]

Any specific insight about this? I am NOT emotional so I just don't get it. I just logically explain it to dd1 and she gets it - doesn't work that way for dd2...

 

My third daughter is what I lovingly call a drama queen.

The tears used to come for just about any reason under the sun.

It was exhausting.

What I did with her as a toddler/preschooler, is get eye level with her and say, "Sweetie, it is not ok to cry over this. You can cry if you get hurt, but you may not cry because I told you to do something." I would tell her to take deep breaths, go wash her face with her, then follow her while she obeyed whatever I had told her to do.

As she got older I gave her more explanations for when crying is appropriate. For instance, I'd tell her it's ok to laugh when someone does something funny, but not when someone gets hurt. Likewise, she may cry if she gets hurt, but not if she's unhappy about a situation.

You know your child, so you know what she can understand.

My dd is 8 and still high drama, but she's learned to use facial expressions instead of tears (which can be kind of comical, lol).

But, yeah, I wouldn't spank for that, just re-train her.

[forty-two]

What I did with her as a toddler/preschooler, is get eye level with her and say, "Sweetie, it is not ok to cry over this. You can cry if you get hurt, but you may not cry because I told you to do something." I would tell her to take deep breaths, go wash her face with her, then follow her while she obeyed whatever I had told her to do.

As she got older I gave her more explanations for when crying is appropriate. For instance, I'd tell her it's ok to laugh when someone does something funny, but not when someone gets hurt. Likewise, she may cry if she gets hurt, but not if she's unhappy about a situation.

You know your chiild, so you know what she can understand.

My dd is 8 and still high drama, but she's learned to use facial expressions instead of tears (which can be kind of comical, lol).

But, yeah, I wouldn't spank for that, just re-train her.

I don't really like to say that it's not ok to cry about some things, but I *do* try to teach and model the more socially acceptable level of dismay for a given situation, along with better ways of handling/expressing one's disappointment/upset.

[Catherine]

I know she addresses, in one of her question and answers, maybe, a similar situation. She is definitely pro-spanking, but points out that if you are being clear and consistent, spankings will not need to be frequent. When I read the site carefully, I realized that my own behavior was at times unclear and confusing to my child, and as a result he was following my cues and failing to behave well at times. My favorite aspect of her method is its insistence on parental self-control, examining one's own behavior, and clarity on what consistency actually looks like. I think if you are feeling the need to spank your dd so often, your own consistency may be slightly lacking. Look at the site, it helped me a great deal.

[Coffeetime]

Um, yeah. You need to save the spankings for major issues, not every infraction or you'll be slapping her all day. That won't teach her to obey, that will teach her to flinch every time you move suddenly.

 

She's 3. This is just how 3 year olds are.

 

You're pregnant, and that's how pregnant women are.

 

While I'm all for obedience, I'm thinking the real problem is not your very normal 3 year old, I'm thinking it is your (entirely normal) lack of patience. Perhaps, for now, the best thing will be to avoid some of the issues by not seeing what she's doing.

 

I also think it's fine for your hubby to tell you to keep at it, but it isn't his heart hurting as he slaps his kid what feels like all day.

 

For what it's worth, when my 3 yo is being like this, I pick her up and say "Oh dear, dd is feeling naughty. Oh dear, she will have to go and be naughty in bed." And I plonk her down there. If there was some unresolved action like picking something up, or apologising, she has to do that when she gets back up. If she won't, I repeat.

 

:grouphug:

 

Rosie

 

I didn't read all the responses but I just wanted to say that I agree with Rosie.

If we learned anything with our first child, who was very strong-willed, it was PICK YOUR BATTLES. Every infraction does not a spanking deserve. It's simply not effective if it's done that often. You'll just end up closing out every day feeling like a failure and feeling defeated. Believe me. I know.

And yes, you're tired and pregnant- I so understand. :grouphug: But I am conviced that some kids simply LOVE the battle. If you draw a line in the sand, they can't help but step over. Not that you should never draw a line, obviously- but if you can, try not to have a "battle" over every little thing.

 

You might try using a timer and keeping things light-hearted. Like "Hey! I'm going to set the timer and let's see if we can get ALL these toys cleaned up in 2 minutes!". Chances are she'll be more compliant if you just approach her differently. I find that I can preempt a lot of potential conflicts that way.

 

Also, I know you said you don't use rewards- but honestly, at her age, a reward chart is a great tool. Little ones need encouragement as much as they need discipline. And using a reward system doesn't mean that you don't discipline or spank as needed.

:grouphug:'s to you. We all feel at a loss as parents sometimes. Just the fact that you are trying to figure it out shows that you're a great parent!

[MindyD]

:grouphug:

First off, I think some people have been a little harsh to you. That said, I understand where you're coming from. My little girl is very VERY emotional. She too will cry at anything. She will cry for a loooong time and she is LOUD. I am just not that way. I am a very logical person and with my son, just talking to him and logically working through an issue worked beautifully, even at 3. With my dd, it has no effect. I try redirecting her attention, and it just doesn't work. I have had days where she would. not. obey. And I did the same thing (3 spanks because she's 3) and we had a few days where she got way too many spankings. I just tell you all this so you can see that I know where you're coming from.

With my dd, who's 4 1/2, I decided to take a big step back an reevaluate what I was doing, how she was responding, just everything. I realized that I was dreading dealing with her because I was always waiting for the next crying fit to start. I also realized that I was putting myself in a me against her relationship and I did NOT want that to happen. We've really cut back on the spanking because it just wasn't working for her. The more we spanked her, the more determined she would look. We started sending her to her room or sitting outside when she starts crying. I tell her she can cry if she feels like she needs to, but we don't have to listen to it. I'll also overly praise her when she stops herself from crying.

But the biggest change was in my attitude towards. I'm learning to appreciate her emotional nature. She can show happiness and excitement better than anyone I know. Just like the smallest things could put her in a tailspin, those small things will make her the happiest person around. She still cries. a lot. But I'm working on my attitude, and she is too. We're both learning. I know this is long, but I hope some of my experience helps. I know how hard it can be sometimes and my heart goes out to you.

Oh, and get some rest! You're about to have a baby!!!

[astrid]

I think her behavior (cry/obey, cry/not obey, ignore) is normal.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You say that she is not obeying happily the first time you direct her (sounds like you are trying to foster 'first time obedience' which seems popular in some conservative circles). You say that she is not complying because you are not holding her accountable by spanking.

 

She is not practicing 'first time obedience' because she is three years old. Period. She is a little kid. I do not believe FTO (when enforced by spanking) is normal or healthy. I have seen this in practice. It is painful to watch.

 

If you are spanking your daughter 10x per day then you are spanking her too much. I'm sorry. It is not working. It makes you feel bad. I disagree that God calls us to enforce either spanking or FTO.

 

I am not anti-spanking but I feel that the spanking you have described is not healthy.

 

Yes. This.

 

astrid

[gingersmom]

I agree.

 

God wants you to keep spanking her? Really?

 

I will never understand this philosophy. Please. Try something else, for the sake of your relationship with your daughter.

 

astrid

 

 

:iagree:

 

She is a 3 year old child, not a robot programmed to follow your every command.

[Ginevra]

but it's like the 'why' never clicks for her!

 

(I have not read the other replies.)

 

I just wanted to tell you that my ds was exactly like this. He really didn't get past it until he was 4, even though I really thought by 3 he "should" be able to. I actually had him tested for disorders, had allergy tests, had blood tests, etc., because I thought that something had to be wrong with him. He cried about every imaginable thing: getting in the bath, getting out of the bath, change diapers, brush teeth, get dressed, get in the car seat, etc., etc. I mince no words: it was hard as heck during that time.

 

I did make an effort like you're talking about, but I could see that it was going to mean constant spankings, constantly and that's just not the emotional environment I want for my kids. I'm not completely anti-spanking, but this was not a feasible strategy.

 

The only thing that "worked" - sorta - was to just make whatever the thing was happen, whether he cried about it or not. Thus, he had to (eventually) learn that I will brush his teeth, I will put his shoes on, I will wash his hair. Cry or don't cry, but it will happen anyway.

 

At almost 6, he is so amazingly waaaaayyyy more cooperative. He is still a sensitive and emotional child, but it's not getting in the way of things now.

 

I would suggest your dd needs time to mature; I would not recommend spanking further in this vein. And I would never say that if I hadn't already been in those shoes.

[Pretty in Pink]

OP, I am sorry if I came across harshly in my first response. I feel that maybe I did. I apologize. I am just concerned by your post. I think it is the language of your posts that is bothering me. Things like FTO, teaching your children (especially your daughters, I believe you said) to submit cheerfully within the workplace and to their husbands, etc. I've heard this sort of language and seen it played out in very unhealthy ways in religious circles.

 

I cannot say that you fit this description. I do not know you. I am trying to help you understand my reaction to the wording of your posts here.

[justamouse]

Um, yeah. You need to save the spankings for major issues, not every infraction or you'll be slapping her all day. That won't teach her to obey, that will teach her to flinch every time you move suddenly.

 

She's 3. This is just how 3 year olds are.

 

You're pregnant, and that's how pregnant women are.

 

While I'm all for obedience, I'm thinking the real problem is not your very normal 3 year old, I'm thinking it is your (entirely normal) lack of patience. Perhaps, for now, the best thing will be to avoid some of the issues by not seeing what she's doing.

 

I also think it's fine for your hubby to tell you to keep at it, but it isn't his heart hurting as he slaps his kid what feels like all day.

 

For what it's worth, when my 3 yo is being like this, I pick her up and say "Oh dear, dd is feeling naughty. Oh dear, she will have to go and be naughty in bed." And I plonk her down there. If there was some unresolved action like picking something up, or apologising, she has to do that when she gets back up. If she won't, I repeat.

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

 

:iagree:

 

I'm all for first time cheerful obedience. At the same time I practice appropriate consequences. That said, my dd has been spanked less than a handful to times in her life, and at her age that will be all she receives.

 

Three year olds do not have a clue what first time obedience is. They do not know to cheerfully do what you ask them, when you ask them to. As far as they are concerned the world revolved around them. And really, IMHO, to an extent it should. They are small creatures exploring their world.

 

I can not believe anyone would spank a child for not going potty. That is absolutely outrageous! So, nap time is a little late or you use the appropriate consequence and put a diaper on the bottom.

 

Also, 3-year olds try their adults every. single. day. They are not doing this to be rebellious or stubborn or whatever negative label you want to apply to justify the spanking.

 

You as the parent have to model behavior over and over and over again until it becomes second nature to the child. At that point the child will start to obey cheerfully the first time. It is a lot more work than trying to beat them into submission.

 

ETA: How long has she been awake today? 10 hours? If you work it out she has been hit once for every hour she has been awake.

 

:iagree:

 

I think her behavior (cry/obey, cry/not obey, ignore) is normal.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You say that she is not obeying happily the first time you direct her (sounds like you are trying to foster 'first time obedience' which seems popular in some conservative circles). You say that she is not complying because you are not holding her accountable by spanking.

 

She is not practicing 'first time obedience' because she is three years old. Period. She is a little kid. I do not believe FTO (when enforced by spanking) is normal or healthy. I have seen this in practice. It is painful to watch.

 

If you are spanking your daughter 10x per day then you are spanking her too much. I'm sorry. It is not working. It makes you feel bad. I disagree that God calls us to enforce either spanking or FTO.

 

I am not anti-spanking but I feel that the spanking you have described is not healthy.

 

:iagree:

 

This thread is making me very upset so I'm just going to be short and sweet. My 15 yo has been spanked less than 5 times in her life. She is darned near perfect. When she was three she acted just like your daughter. It's the way three year olds act.

 

If your husband is telling you to keep spanking her? A three year old? The man who abused me almost to the point of killing me used to spank his daughter to potty train her.

 

Please stop spanking her. Please. She is three. There is no reason on God's green earth you need to spank a three year old. She's acting three.

[ondreeuh]

I barely read through your opening post because I had so much anxiety.

 

My heart breaks for your daughter. You are expecting adult behavior from her, which is completely inappropriate. If I knew you personally I would call child protective services, that's how bad it looks on the outside.

 

Please, PLEASE, look beyond your immediate source of information (I'm guessing church) as you figure out how to parent this stage of your daughter's life. She is a person, someone who needs to be taught WHY she is to do the things you are asking to do. She is NOT to young to start learning that we eat healthy food so our bodies are healthy, we get rest so our bodies can grow, we hold hands so we stay safe. Take the time to teach her the reasoning behind your rules and you will eliminate a large part of the power struggle. Your goal should be to guide your daughter, not make her act out of fear.

[HRAAB]

thank you for all of this.

 

I apologize. I misunderstood what you said about breaking her will.

[Laurie4b]

Have you been reading the Ezzos or the Pearls? I want to address that kind of teaching, even if you've been reading different authors, because the FTO with a cheerful heart tends to be of the same type.

 

You are stuck because you have it in your head that there are two choices: first time happy obedience or a spanking. That's a false dichotomy and will lead to abuse with certain children because they will never bend. I got hit every.single.time I talked back, disobeyed, etc. I never stopped. Never. I wasn't actually a bad kid. I wanted to know why and my parents regarded that as disrespectful. I actually never figured out exactly what they considered disrespectful until I was an adult. You cannot change the sin nature by spanking it out of a kid. The two aforementioned authors imply that in their writings. We human beings discipline kids to civilize them, but that doesn't necessarily touch their hearts. Look at the older brother in the parable of the prodigal son. He was good on the outside, but on the inside was proud of how good he was---leaving him much further from God then his rebellious younger brother who eventually repented.

 

Instead of reading books (especially ones that claim to teach you God's one and only way for disciplining children), ask some women you know whose adult children walk with the Lord. I've found that more often than not the right woman to be a godly mentor will say that she doesn't really know much about raising kids (This is because she is humble and came to realize that she had to be constantly on her knees, not following some formula or other.) However, she'll have general wisdom to share and can be someone to bounce things off of. You can be sure whatever works for kiddo #1 will be different from kiddo #2. Keeps us on our knees!

 

There are some people on this board who used the approach that you're now using on your 3 year old and deeply regret it. I'd recommend that you get yourself a bag of tools to use for discipline. You can leave spanking in the bag, but get a bunch of others, too. And take a good look at the theology of some of those parenting books. The sin nature is changed by the acknowledgment that are sinners and acceptance of Christ's death for us and the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. It's his kindness that leads us to repentance. Parenting methods that say you can change a heart by spanking are not consistent with this theology. A huge emphasis on outward behavior (even if they talk about the heart) is not consistent with biblical parenting; it's a great way to raise either Pharisees or rebels.

 

And my talking back, etc? It changed when I became a Christian. What all the spanking, slapping, etc. in the world could not do, the love of Christ did. (I was not raised in a Christian home.)

Edited November 4, 2010 by Laurie4b

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

nm

[Moxie]

I barely read through your opening post because I had so much anxiety.

 

My heart breaks for your daughter. You are expecting adult behavior from her, which is completely inappropriate. If I knew you personally I would call child protective services, that's how bad it looks on the outside.

 

Please, PLEASE, look beyond your immediate source of information (I'm guessing church) as you figure out how to parent this stage of your daughter's life. She is a person, someone who needs to be taught WHY she is to do the things you are asking to do. She is NOT to young to start learning that we eat healthy food so our bodies are healthy, we get rest so our bodies can grow, we hold hands so we stay safe. Take the time to teach her the reasoning behind your rules and you will eliminate a large part of the power struggle. Your goal should be to guide your daughter, not make her act out of fear.

 

You need to cool off a little. Threatening to call CPS is a bit much :glare:.

[Tabrett]

3 is the hardest age to deal with (IMHO). I have a 3yo and I can't wait till he turns 4 :lol:. He is very willful and stubborn.

 

My advice might not be helpful, but here I go.:D

 

Make sure you get down at eye level when you ask you dc to do something. Make sure they are looking you directly in the eyes. Sometimes I have to gently hold my dc face and ask over and over for them to look me in the eyes. Ask them to repeat back to you what you want them to do. EYE CONTACT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! Smile and give them a kiss and send them off in the direction of the task.

 

Many times my ds wants me to go to the potty with him. For no reason, just to be there. I will and will slowly try to sneak away. I don't know why he wants me there, but he does. After a while he will tell me to go away.

 

Sometimes if I see any of my dc starting to get upset about what I asked them to do, I get down at eye level and tell them to be happy and smile really big and tickle them. Then I will ask them to do their chore happily.

I may have to repeat this until they are truly happy. I will then ask them if they are going to obey. I won't let them go until they say yes.

For some reason, getting my dc to say they will obey gets them to obey.

 

I don't know if this will help, but again, a 3yo is the MOST TRYING AGE!

 

It is ok to mix up your punishments. When my oldest dd was 3, I could put her dolls in time out and that was all the punishment she needed. It was very traumatic for her not to have her dolls.;)

 

I don't advise "time-out". I worked in daycares and saw that most of the dc who stayed in time-out really didn't care about being away from other dc. Time out only works well for very social children who are older.

 

Rewards for obeying is ok too! We are paid for doing work (unless you are a hs'ing mom:lol:). Jesus rewards us for obeying Him with eternal life. The Bible also says in Col 3:21 "Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart." Is your punishment exasperating? Not all situations need to be spankings. Using different types of rewards and punishments based on severity does not mean you are sparing the rod. I would only spank for willful defiance, not immaturity.

 

If you dc runs out in the road - spanking would be appropriate! Crying will quit when ignored enough times and /or told to go ahead a cry, its not going to change anything. And you stay very unemotional about the crying. Sometime I tell them to go ahead and cry in their room and when they are done they can come see me. I actually go check on them to make sure they are not playing and to see if they are done.

 

But with a 3 yo, you probably need to do more "training"(taking your dc to the potty instead of telling them to go, If they refuse to go get something immediately taking their hand and go with them to get what ever it was you asked them to get. ect...) and less "discipline". More time consuming and mommy involved, but worth the time in the long run.

[Heatherwith4]

:iagree: 100%. I have a three year old. If I attempted to make him obey me the first time every time, and tried to enforce it by spanking...well, my hand would fall off.

The more experienced I get as a parent (not that I think I know everything) the less I spank. I do other things.

[NanceXToo]

Well, not that I'm likely to change your views on spanking, but, still, I would recommend taking a look at the following articles and taking from them what you will.

 

http://nospank.net/sagendrf.htm

 

http://nospank.net/sexdngrs.htm

 

http://www.secular-homeschooling.com/011/pearls.html

[Laurie4b]

If I knew you personally I would call child protective services, that's how bad it looks on the outside.

 

.

 

i really hope you didn't mean that and that you would not do that IRL based on spanking a child 3 times with 3 swats each.

 

A CPS investigation is incredibly traumatizing for the child and the family. And CPS workers can be reasonable people (in which case, the investigation would be dropped) or they can be troubled people working out their own issues (in which case one never knows what would happen.) A CPS investigation is akin to doing a biopsy by cutting out a lump. Don't do it unless you have good reason to suspect cancer, not a cyclical cyst, or you'll do more harm than good and cause unnecessary trauma. I worked for years in children's mental health. No mandatory-reporting professional I know would have reported a family for this level of behavior. No one--because though I think this discipline is misguided, it does not rise to the level that CPS needs to be involved.

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree. Spanking doesn't seem to be the answer in this situation. Didn't you say you got better results by taking away

privileges?

 

 

no

 

You had written:

 

"Sometimes I wonder if she understands and is seeing how much she can get away with or if she really doesn't understand so today she was doing the wrong thing...I try to *never* threaten or 'reward' by saying, 'if you do this, you won't get this' but I wanted to see her level of understanding so I said, we were going to watch Elmo's World after this but since you are doing x, I guess we won't be able to...guess what, she fixed her behavior immediately and did the right thing. She is a VERY smart girl (sometimes, I think to her detriment)."

 

Is there any account in the Bible of Jesus hitting anyone? Or saying that children should be hit? Sorry - I know this thread was specifically for those who aren't opposed to spanking, but I find it offensive when people say that God wants you to physically hurt your child. :confused:

 

Children aren't robots. When it's important, then she does need to obey, but if everything is given equal importance and infractions are dealt with severely, you're not only going to lose the war, but the battles too.

 

I'm praying that you and your husband will seriously reconsider how you will raise your children.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[kamom]

Yes, this post was for those who believe in spanking, I don't know why so many others are piping up with unwanted help.:001_huh:

 

Yes, the Bible, the inspired Word of God does mention spanking children. And it has been proven to work.

 

She was not asking for everyone's opinion about weather spanking was wrong or right.

 

I know many people who successfully raised strong willed children by spanking them.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I think her behavior (cry/obey, cry/not obey, ignore) is normal.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here. You say that she is not obeying happily the first time you direct her (sounds like you are trying to foster 'first time obedience' which seems popular in some conservative circles). You say that she is not complying because you are not holding her accountable by spanking.

 

She is not practicing 'first time obedience' because she is three years old. Period. She is a little kid. I do not believe FTO (when enforced by spanking) is normal or healthy. I have seen this in practice. It is painful to watch.

 

If you are spanking your daughter 10x per day then you are spanking her too much. I'm sorry. It is not working. It makes you feel bad. I disagree that God calls us to enforce either spanking or FTO.

 

I am not anti-spanking but I feel that the spanking you have described is not healthy.

:iagree: Some kids cry a lot for years and then grow out of it. I think it is normal for them. Also, she may not be fully ready for potty training. I also think first time obedience and cheerful obedience and subservience to husbands IMHO is misguided and wrong. Of course, I want my ds to listen and follow directions but I do not expect him to be a robot who never questions anything. I love my dh and he loves me and we are a team and I do not think that is ant-Biblical at all. We submit to each other and come up with consensus. I think the 5 minute warning is a great tool to use and eventually they will not need it at all when they are older.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yes, this post was for those who believe in spanking, I don't know why so many others are piping up with unwanted help.:001_huh:

 

Yes, the Bible, the inspired Word of God does mention spanking children. And it has been proven to work.

 

She was not asking for everyone's opinion about weather spanking was wrong or right.

 

I know many people who successfully raised strong willed children by spanking them.

 

I am not anti-spanking. I didn't say whether spanking in general was right or wrong. I said that it shouldn't be the only tool in your parenting toolbox and offered alternatives.

[kmacnchs]

3 is the hardest age to deal with (IMHO). I have a 3yo and I can't wait till he turns 4 :lol:. He is very willful and stubborn.

 

My advice might not be helpful, but here I go.:D

 

Make sure you get down at eye level when you ask you dc to do something. Make sure they are looking you directly in the eyes. Sometimes I have to gently hold my dc face and ask over and over for them to look me in the eyes. Ask them to repeat back to you what you want them to do. EYE CONTACT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! Smile and give them a kiss and send them off in the direction of the task.

 

Many times my ds wants me to go to the potty with him. For no reason, just to be there. I will and will slowly try to sneak away. I don't know why he wants me there, but he does. After a while he will tell me to go away.

 

Sometimes if I see any of my dc starting to get upset about what I asked them to do, I get down at eye level and tell them to be happy and smile really big and tickle them. Then I will ask them to do their chore happily.

I may have to repeat this until they are truly happy. I will then ask them if they are going to obey. I won't let them go until they say yes.

For some reason, getting my dc to say they will obey gets them to obey.

 

I don't know if this will help, but again, a 3yo is the MOST TRYING AGE!

 

It is ok to mix up your punishments. When my oldest dd was 3, I could put her dolls in time out and that was all the punishment she needed. It was very traumatic for her not to have her dolls.;)

 

I don't advise "time-out". I worked in daycares and saw that most of the dc who stayed in time-out really didn't care about being away from other dc. Time out only works well for very social children who are older.

 

Rewards for obeying is ok too! We are paid for doing work (unless you are a hs'ing mom:lol:). Jesus rewards us for obeying Him with eternal life. The Bible also says in Col 3:21 "Fathers, do not exasperate your children, so that they will not lose heart." Is your punishment exasperating? Not all situations need to be spankings. Using different types of rewards and punishments based on severity does not mean you are sparing the rod. I would only spank for willful defiance, not immaturity.

 

If you dc runs out in the road - spanking would be appropriate! Crying will quit when ignored enough times and /or told to go ahead a cry, its not going to change anything. And you stay very unemotional about the crying. Sometime I tell them to go ahead and cry in their room and when they are done they can come see me. I actually go check on them to make sure they are not playing and to see if they are done.

 

But with a 3 yo, you probably need to do more "training"(taking your dc to the potty instead of telling them to go, If they refuse to go get something immediately taking their hand and go with them to get what ever it was you asked them to get. ect...) and less "discipline". More time consuming and mommy involved, but worth the time in the long run.

 

VERY helpful - thank you!

[Teachin'Mine]

I posted because I'm concerned. My heart goes out to that little one and I hope that this family finds a better way.

 

My question was about Jesus' actions.

[kmacnchs]

thanks for those of you who posted helpful things - I've been on the board long enough to know that what I type is MANY TIMES misunderstood (*not* blaming, just saying, apparently I'm not good at typing my point)...

 

anyway, thanks again for the helpful tips - sometimes the little things help the most - and the website suggestions and for the PMs especially.

 

when I have more time (after they go to bed), I *may* respond to more recent posts but it's getting kinda cyclical and not very nice so I may not.

 

again, thanks!

 

katy

[mama2cntrykids]

I have nothing to add. I just want to say that you are such wise mamas!

[kalanamak]

I never spank her when she doesn't know why - she knows exactly why every time

 

You might be surprised at what a 3 year old does and doesn't know. There are different levels of "knowing" and 3 year olds are still quite magical in their thinking. Like if you say "no, I didn't smear lipstick all over the wall" the lipstick will disappear.

 

If you notice that what you posts are "misunderstood", perhaps your child is "misunderstanding" you a little, too.

 

Just a thought.

[Old Dominion Heather]

by whom?

 

Here is a link.

[Gratia271]

Foremost, you need to find someone to help you out here if at all possible. You have too much to grapple with, and you need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your little ones.

 

I completely understand what you are talking about here. Like some pp here, my first child responded well to logic and redirection at a very young age. Second girl came along and was what you are describing. I was not prepared for her and have been quite humbled in my parenting efforts because of K. At age 3, K ran the full gamut of drama from delight to distress at lightning speed. She is more subdued now. She exasperated me endlessly, and I felt like an abject failure as a parent...... It was basically an opportunity for me to learn how to relate to a personality style completely unlike mine. Once I really thought about it, I realized my logical "no nonsense" approach made about as much sense to her as her emotional personality made sense to me. The bottom line is I loved her and wanted to relate to her because she is my daughter.

 

I am not opposed to spanking, but it is not effective with all children. It doesn't seem to be working for you. Not all kids respond well to logic either which is my approach to life (like yours), and it works great with two of my children. If the goal of discipline is to change behavior, then you have to find what works for each child. Children are as unique as their adult counterparts, and there is no one-size-fits-all approach. Logic simply didn't work with K, and it won't with young children wired this way. They communicate and relate in a much more emotive way. As such, they (more than others IMO) need their feelings validated, not diminished. Don't deny her the right to her own feelings by forcing "cheerfulness." All of my children know they are entitled to their feelings and emotions. What they do about them is another matter. First time cheerful obedience may or may not be realistic. With my K, she needs to know she can voice whatever she is feeling, but she also knows she needs to do what she is asked to do. K also needs/thrives on positive physical affection much moreso than my other two. I think that goes along with this personality style, and disciplining her in a physical way would harm her emotionally and break the relationship. I am in no way stating this is true of all children, but it is true regarding K.

 

Regarding willfulness, you have to pick your battles. Give Her Choices.... If my son knows he has control over how long he has to do something based on HIS choice, he is completely motivated. With some kids, it comes down to negotiation. This doesn't adversely impact respect for authority because not everything is negotiable, but some things have to be for their sake. After all, who likes feeling totally powerless?

 

Bottom line ... you are a great mom who needs a break. I hope you find an approach that will work with your daughter. I have one just like her, and I assure you she wants to please you and love you in HER way.

[smrtmama]

Sure, hit your three year old until she obeys you with a "glad heart." That's exactly what Jesus was talking about.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I'll 3rd (4th? 5th?) Parenting with Love and Logic. It's a christian-based parenting book, and while I don't follow it strictly, it changed the way I parent. A lot of it is just sort of working with the child's own momentum. You don't tell them to get dressed in the morning--you ask them to choose between the red shirt and the blue shirt. You don't tell them to go brush their teeth--you ask them would they like to sit on the bathroom counter or on the toilet lid while you help them brush. You don't tell them to set the table for dinner--you ask them if they'd like to take the cups or the plates in first. It takes a lot of the struggle out of a lot of the everyday stuff and the child feels like they have some control over what happens.

 

Also--at three, I find they're just difficult. They go through phases that are just no fun, and we as parents get antsy to stop it and think, "Oh, I've got to nip this in the bud NOW or they'll be doing this for the rest of their LIFE!" Well, no, in most cases they won't. They outgrow it (and move on to something else for you to stress over ;)).

 

Hang in there mama!

[Joanne]

I agree it is a heart issue and that is part of my conundrum...training the heart is such a hard thing for me to grasp! I'm such a concrete person - but thank you for saying this anyway - it tells me one thing I need to do is pray for her more!

 

You can't train a heart.

 

Spanking (or other punishment) can not make her more mature. It will not move her into another developmental stage. It will not change her temperment or personality.

 

There is nothing that connects the dots Biblically between the so-called rod verses, FTO and cheeful obedience. The only force tying those extrapolated verses together are humans.

 

Tell her what she needs to do. If she doesn't start to do it, get up and make sure it gets done. With that said, I make sure that my commands are indeed reasonable, fair in type and number and that when I do need something done now, I am sparing with that tone.

 

Punishment is what parents do during the months that kids use to outgrow that particular behavior.

 

IMO, spanking, if used at all, should be minimal and certainly not daily.

[BethInNH]

I barely read through your opening post because I had so much anxiety.

 

My heart breaks for your daughter. You are expecting adult behavior from her, which is completely inappropriate. If I knew you personally I would call child protective services, that's how bad it looks on the outside.

 

Please, PLEASE, look beyond your immediate source of information (I'm guessing church) as you figure out how to parent this stage of your daughter's life. She is a person, someone who needs to be taught WHY she is to do the things you are asking to do. She is NOT to young to start learning that we eat healthy food so our bodies are healthy, we get rest so our bodies can grow, we hold hands so we stay safe. Take the time to teach her the reasoning behind your rules and you will eliminate a large part of the power struggle. Your goal should be to guide your daughter, not make her act out of fear.

 

 

 

Sounds like she responds well to the 'IF you do X THEN you will get to do Y' much better than being struck.

I know that you probably will completely ignore my advice, but I just have to say that I wish you would rethink the whole deal where you spank her (and she doesn't understand why) and then ask her for a hug. Sounds like the perfect recipe to raise a daughter who will seek out an abusive partner later in life. Just a thought.

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, this post was for those who believe in spanking, I don't know why so many others are piping up with unwanted help.:001_huh:

 

Yes, the Bible, the inspired Word of God does mention spanking children. And it has been proven to work.

 

She was not asking for everyone's opinion about weather spanking was wrong or right.

 

I know many people who successfully raised strong willed children by spanking them.

 

I don't know why you feel the need to tell us who can and who cannot reply to a post-

you are not the OP, so what's it to you?

Edited November 5, 2010 by BethInNH

[secular_mom]

Yes, this post was for those who believe in spanking, I don't know why so many others are piping up with unwanted help.:001_huh:

 

Yes, the Bible, the inspired Word of God does mention spanking children. And it has been proven to work.

 

She was not asking for everyone's opinion about weather spanking was wrong or right.

 

I know many people who successfully raised strong willed children by spanking them.

This is a public message board, anyone who's a member can respond to ANY post as they see fit. I tend to steer away from CC threads because they often times distress me. HOWEVER, when the title of a thread mentions 'breaking a child's will' I WILL respond. IME there is always at least one person who replies who disagrees with the OP when the topic is "hot".

[mo2]

Punishment is what parents do during the months that kids use to outgrow that particular behavior.

 

 

I like this! I also really enjoy your website, Joanne, although I haven't been there in awhile.

[Joanne]

You might be surprised at what a 3 year old does and doesn't know. There are different levels of "knowing" and 3 year olds are still quite magical in their thinking. Like if you say "no, I didn't smear lipstick all over the wall" the lipstick will disappear.

 

If you notice that what you posts are "misunderstood", perhaps your child is "misunderstanding" you a little, too.

 

Just a thought.

 

That's a huge point. Cognitive understanding of words and the ability to delay gratification, to impose impulse control are not synonymous. Children are not more mature simply because they have a vocabulary.

 

There is a verse that says when he is old he will not depart from it. It gives no promises in the 3 year old years. ;)

[elizabeth]

 

http://www.psywarrior.com/psyhist.html Lots of great tips here. I am excited to have found such great parenting information.

[kmacnchs]

your post was VERY helpful - I'll just highlight a few parts that struck me (I had never thought about it that way kind of things)

 

I realized my logical "no nonsense" approach made about as much sense to her as her emotional personality made sense to me.

 

I assure you she wants to please you and love you in HER way.

 

thank you again, really, even with some of the mean and outrageous comments, these make it worth it to post some personal questions :001_smile:

[Catherine]

Reminds me of a t-shirt I'd love to own: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

[Trish]

Ouch! I have certainly spanked, but it is really reserved for those special occasions when the kids have disobeyed in a way that endangers them (or a sibling), or the behavior has gotten so extreme that I felt a need to make an immediate point. But, I must say the total number of spankings my kids have received in their lifetimes is probably less than what you've delivered in one day.

 

I'm all for obedience and discipline. But I pray you will find another way to achieve it. There's some good advice on this thread I hope you'll find something that works for you. Good luck!

[Mrs Mungo]

http://www.psywarrior.com/psyhist.html Lots of great tips here. I am excited to have found such great parenting information.

 

:tongue_smilie:Smarty pants! ;)

[elizabeth]

One does what one can.:tongue_smilie:

[BethInNH]

Reminds me of a t-shirt I'd love to own: The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves.

I think I love you :D