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I hate to even ask about Tapestry of Grace...


TKDmom
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But would it work for us?

 

I'm researching curric. for next year. I've been using SL for the last 2 years. I like it, but I would like something with more independent reading and fewer read-alouds. My ds has started asking to have more hands on projects. I'd also like to go back to a 4-year cycle. I've recently re-read TWTM, and I was all set to go back to that, and design my own studies, but then I decided to look at TOG...<Sigh>.

 

My biggest obstacle is religion. I'm LDS, I tend to use secular materials, and this summer's controversy over TOG's use of TCoO made me pretty skittish. For those who have used TOG in Dialectic and Rhetoric stages, do you feel like it presents other religions fairly? It looks like they try to (I can see how people have said that TCoO is good for studying author bias), but it's hard to tell from just samples. I wish they had 1-week samples of all the units. I consider myself Christian, but I know a lot of Christian publishers wouldn't agree. Do the discussion questions allow you to form your own conclusions, or do they lead the students to conclusions that agree with the publisher? I find that I have to ignore most of the notes in SL because the author is stating his beliefs rather than inviting discussion.

 

 

I have other questions, but I'll hold off on those until I can see if TOG would have any possibility of working for my family.

 

TIA. :001_smile:

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As for your first round of concerns: independent reading, hands on, less read aloud, I'd say TOG exactly fits your bill.

 

As for the LDS perspective, I believe there is a yahoo group for TOG users who are LDS, as well as a group of secular users. The Somervilles will point out heavily some doctrinal differences IN THE TEACHER'S NOTES, but not in the program. It is certainly "christian, protestant" as the D level book, Church in History is clearly from a Reformed perspective.

 

Having said such, we are not Reformed in our household, yet we are very able to use this program, particularly, b/c as headmaster, I decide where we go in our discussions.

 

I suggest looking for discussions on the TOG forum, searching for yahoo groups, and contacting the authors. They do a great job in responding to any questions.

 

As for TCoO....the entire discussion boils down to this: YOU are the headmaster. YOU choose the books. There are so many options that can easily be subbed, it shouldn't be an issue; you can also use the language in the book to discuss deeper your beliefs. That's what I did and my children never even looked twice trying to believe any of the archaic terminology. It was simply another lesson in our schoolhouse. In fact, it gave them an deeper understanding of the thought of that time and how every era has their issues. *I* (no flames, please) found the entire thread made a mountain out of a mole hill, but *I* am rather laid back that way. (and for what it's worth, my great grandmother...full on Mestizo).

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I am new to TOG and love, love, love it. I can't say if it would "work" for you, but it does have plenty of independent reading and lots of choices for hands on reading. I have a LG and a D student. I read aloud everything to my LG student because he is still learning to read, but I have done any RA's with my D student .

 

As for the religion, Tina is right on - YOU decide. There is so much on the TOG menu that I can't see how religion could be a problem.

 

As for TCOO - we are on Yr 2 U3 and I chose the alternate text called Heritage of Freedom - it is the Abeka text and it works out fine for us.

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What is TCOO?

 

Our family is Eastern Orthodox Christians and I had a little hard time with the teacher's notes because they are very opinionated about her beliefs which in general represent an Evangelical Christian view but I am sure even among themselves there would be disagreements. I did find it a bit difficult to read through at times and I was glad to have my husband to be able to ask questions about. I spent a good deal of my life as an Evangelical Christian so it's not like I am not familiar with it, but I still found it a bit hard at times. However, that information is in the notes and you don't need to share that perspective with your kids. You may even find it interesting. My personal concern is for high school. I am not sure how much of this is included with notes that the student is suppose to read.

 

I have not used A LOT of units. I am mostly familiar with parts of Year 1 and Year 2. The reformation period with Martin Luther for Year 2 was a bit difficult to get through. But again, this had nothing to do with what my son was taught, it was just me reading the notes. Infact, reading all these notes made me research and want to understand more deeply the Orthodox Church History so I could better teach my own child.

Edited by Nancy Ann
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Thanks for your responses. I searched around and found some other threads that discussed my concerns, and reassured me. I like the idea of having lots of options to choose from in reading. It sounds like it would less restrictive than SL, but easier than making my own way. Assuming I can manage to ignore half the suggestions in the schedule. :D

 

Today, my ds(7) and I had a nice long conversation. He doesn't like being lumped together with his little brother on a SL core. He'd rather do history with his sister, but I'd have to be doing a lot of tweaking to make core 3 doable for a 1st grader. Trying to add on a 3rd core for our family is out of the question. I keep thinking it would be so much easier if all the kids were on the same history rotation, and I could have books of various reading levels for them to pick and choose from.

 

He's also flying through his readers. He finished the reader pack (2 regular) that I bought for him in 6 weeks. And now he's reading the books in the next level up (2 int.) at the rate of one per day, rather than 1 per week.

 

I was going to wait until next year to try something different (like TOG) with ancient history, but after talking to ds this afternoon, I feel like I ought to figure out something for him sooner rather than later. Ugh.

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What is TCOO?

 

This Country of Ours by HE Marshall. I think it is used in Year 3 dialectic readings.

 

Hmm, good point about how difficult it can be to read through the notes. That is one of my issues with SL. I had to return Science 4, because I got sick of all the discussion of evolution in the IG notes (Science 4 doesn't even cover evolution--it's mostly astronomy, and physics).

From a church history perspective we would have more in common with protestants than an Orthodox family (at least up to the mid-1800's), so it might be easier for me to read those sections.

 

High school is one of my major concerns, too. Not that we'll be there any time soon. :tongue_smilie: Hopefully someone with older kids will chime in.

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What is TCOO?

This Country of Ours

 

I am one who substitutes a lot of books. For year 1 I am using MOH as our spine for the younger 3, then Guerber's books for my oldest dd's spine. I took TOG and re-arranged so that it follows Guerber. I will pick out literature for all from what ever week my oldest is on. This may mean it doesn't exactly line up with what we are doing in MOH, but that doesn't bother me. I will also use the vocab, and maybe the mapping from TOG...but I need to look at the MOH mapping in depth first.

 

All that to say that with all my tweaking, I still enjoy what I do use from TOG and am glad that at least part of the work is done for me.

 

On the LDS issue, it only comes up once, I believe in year 3. Overall the treatment is good, the books we read emphasized how the Mormons helped those heading west. The teacher notes are not that bad either, but do leave a little bit of a negative light on the whole multiple marriage thing. I haven't looked at it in a while so it might be the way the Encyclopedia deals with it. They just don't emphasize that today Mormons don't agree with multiple marriages and those who do are considered different sects. It does point out areas of doctrinal differences, but I don't remember it being done in a negative way. They generally do include scripture references that support the other side, and that is true of both LDS and any other religious practice they cover, but they don't go on personal attacks like TCOO does. :eek: They don't use demeaning language, IMO. They present the information and how you use it is your choice. Their bias probably shows up in which points they choose to take issue with, not in how they state it. KWIM?

 

Personally I probably won't use TCOO. I like the idea of using it, to show my kids how some people are biased, and how society changes over time. To teach them to think about anything they read. But you can do that in other ways, and I don't think I have the stamina to do it with a whole text over multiple years.

 

Heather

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I don't think you'd have to tweak much for Core 3, just by looking at the reading choices. Most of them I think are around a 3rd grade level and if your son is reading the level 2 readers that quickly, then I'd say he's ready for level 3, unless there are mature subjects there, of which I have no knowledge. I am planning on doing Core 3+4 with my 5th grader next year as well as MFW Adventures for my 1st grader. I don't know if MFW would work for you or not.

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I had similar concerns (I'm not LDS, but I'm also not Evangelical). From the samples, it *looked* like a lot of that stuff was mostly in the teacher's notes, and thus would be easier to teach around. There were some thinking questions in the upper levels that I thought might not quite fit with our beliefs, but at the same time, at a rhetoric level, I'd be ok with asking that question anyway and having my child answer differently from the teacher's notes based on what he understands of the Bible, etc.

 

That said, I haven't looked at the church history type books, as I was mostly looking at Ancients for our use, plus my oldest will be 2nd grade, so D and R levels were a LOOOOONG way off. I decided to hold off on TOG for now and go with Biblioplan for the early years, then I'll reevaluate when I have a D level kid (and the multiple cores is the first thing that sent me running far from Sonlight! My kids will be 3 and 2 grades apart, and I want something that they can all do together at least until one hits high school... the high schooler can go on their own if they need to).

 

I know some people use TOG in a secular fashion and they seem to do it pretty easily except for year 1. From the samples, it just looked to me like it wouldn't be much of an issue. It's fairly easy to sub books or take out the church history section if you need to, etc. Unfortunately, they don't have samples of all the years. I'd love to see a 3 week spread of Y3 and Y4!

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I don't think you'd have to tweak much for Core 3, just by looking at the reading choices. Most of them I think are around a 3rd grade level and if your son is reading the level 2 readers that quickly, then I'd say he's ready for level 3, unless there are mature subjects there, of which I have no knowledge.

 

Good point. The core 3 readers don't seem to be much harder than 2 Int. My concerns are more with the history books and read-alouds. Story of the USA has a lot of writing in the comprehension questions (I could just let him read and skip the questions, and that would also save me from having to buy another workbook). The Landmark History is written at a much higher reading level. I have to read that out loud to dd and stop to explain things every so often. When I was talking with ds, he said that he understands it when I read to dd, so maybe this can work....

 

A lot of the read-alouds are more appropriate for middle grade kids. Not that I couldn't read them to them, but I think a lot of the subleties of the story are lost on a 7yo (and even a 9yo). Sometimes ds just walks out of the room during read-alouds b/c he's not interested. Even dd has been heard to say, "when will this chapter be over?" this year. I think I may end up shelving a lot of the core 3 read-alouds, and go through history a little faster. We've still got all the core K books on the shelf that dc enjoy for read-alouds.

 

Thanks for listening to me think out loud. I think I'm going to end up doing all kinds of Tweaking this year. :tongue_smilie:

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Here is a link to the chapter in TCOO that everyone is talking about. I am told that this is assigned at the D level. I know that a lot of LDS folks would be incredibly offended by it. But

 

When I read this, I have to say that as and LDS member, it really did not bother me. It was so obviously biased and ignorant of what actually happened that I didn't feel threatened by it at all. I would rather use LDS materials for LDS history, anyway. Even so, I think I would want my kids to read this and be able to talk with them about the inaccuracies and purposeful omissions that change the meaning of the story, as well as the biased opinions that are so freely shared. Unfortunately, our children are going to encounter this IRL, so they need to be prepared. I would use it as an opportunity to brainstorm ideas for how to respond to people who believe this stuff, and maybe even do some role playing.

 

Anyway, I had LDS folks recommend other programs, but they just did not compare to TOG. Personally, I feel that the training in using the Socratic method is worth every penny. I researched TOG for many months before purchasing it. I suppose that since I am only doing LG right now, I might change my mind in the future as we do higher levels. But I am quite happy with it now. It provides the right kind of books, but gives me enough to pick from. My dd loves maps, and so MapAids is a winner here. And it gives me great, easy activities to do with dd almost every week.

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When I read this, I have to say that as and LDS member, it really did not bother me. It was so obviously biased and ignorant of what actually happened that I didn't feel threatened by it at all. I would rather use LDS materials for LDS history, anyway. Even so, I think I would want my kids to read this and be able to talk with them about the inaccuracies and purposeful omissions that change the meaning of the story, as well as the biased opinions that are so freely shared.

 

The first time I read that chapter (from Bill's post on the other thread) I was so upset that I couldn't read it. This time, I thought it was almost comical how grossly inaccurate it is. Personally, I wouldn't use that book at all. I don't know enough history to be able to sift out the other inaccuracies. Maybe they would be just as glaringly obvious to me as these were. Maybe TOG would help to point out the bias. But I'd rather just use one of the alternate spines. I'd also be afraid that my children would be put on the defensive by a text like that.

 

Thanks for your input. I'm really liking the looks of the samples. I'm reading through the Y2 sample right now, which happens to be the time period we just studied in SL. Wow. There's just so much more there.

 

I'm gonna start looking around at other people opinions of the writing portions of TOG. I may start another thread if I don't see what I'm looking for. :)

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This time, I thought it was almost comical how grossly inaccurate it is.

 

:iagree: Comical is a good way to put it.

 

I'm reading through the Y2 sample right now, which happens to be the time period we just studied in SL. Wow. There's just so much more there.

 

Yes, this is why after so much research, I could not let TOG go and settle for something that was more LDS-friendly but so much less educational for me and my kids. Moreover, so many people out there from all different worldviews take an "us vs. them" viewpoint. But I find so much in TOG that I do agree with. We have even used material from TOG in our evening scripture study, because we felt that it was worthwhile for the whole family to learn it together.

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Wow! I can definitely see how that would be offensive. I guess just like the reformation period and also around the time of the fall of Rome is an issue for me; I can see how this period of time would be an issue for you guys.

 

I was actually an Evangelical Christian when I first used TOG and still had some problems with how she talked in the notes. I actually really like Marcia, I think she is a wonderful person and has done a great job with this curriculum(I know she's had a lot of help!) But the language was still a bit over the top for me at times. However, the curriculum is so good in so many ways; it is really high quality.

 

One of the reasons we are not using it now is because I am just schooling one child and it's just too time intensive and I don't care for the book selections as much as Sonlights.

 

Good luck to you!!:)

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I was actually an Evangelical Christian when I first used TOG and still had some problems with how she talked in the notes. I actually really like Marcia, I think she is a wonderful person and has done a great job with this curriculum(I know she's had a lot of help!) But the language was still a bit over the top for me at times. However, the curriculum is so good in so many ways; it is really high quality.

 

Can you explain this a little more? Over the top how? If I can jump in here, not meaning to take over original question. :)

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Can you explain this a little more? Over the top how? If I can jump in here, not meaning to take over original question. :)

 

I will do my best but it's been a few years since I have used it and I no longer have the curriculum. Mostly this pertains to Year 2. I remember my husband and I having conversations about some parts of the notes being over the top. I mostly remember lots of opinions about God making things happen in this such a way or just in general talking about God's motives or reasons for doing things. I have always refrained from that type of speculative talk. In my own personal life I may talk sort of like that because I do believe God is involved and the Spirit moves and does all sorts of things in our lives. I am just not one to make those sorts of conclusions regarding history or broad topics or even other people like that. I think there was more to it than all this but like I said I don't have the curriculum to go back and look. I just remember having many conversations with my husband about it. Sorry

Edited by Nancy Ann
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The Somervilles believe in God's Divine Providence and the teacher's notes and perhaps even some of the student questions reflect that. The picture of God's "Tapestry of Grace" reflects that. Maybe reading their Statement of Faith will help. I have found this line in particular to be true about TOG:

We do not know how to be truly unbiased about something as important as our faith, but we think we have been commanded to be honest about our own beliefs, humble about our own wisdom, confident in God’s care, and respectful of our brothers and sisters from different persuasions.
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I am LDS also and I took a long time deciding whether or not to take the plunge and once I made the decision to use it, I only ordered one unit at a time--just in case. :001_smile: I have 2 dialectic, one UG, and one LG. It's been wonderful so far. I agree with the other poster who said that at times the teacher's guides are over the top. I'm not used to such bold statements like "this week pray for those who are locked in muslim beliefs" (not a direct quote because I don't want to go look it up right now, but it's close.) I substituted Marshall's book with Dorothy Mills's (which makes more work for me and my dialectic kids, but it's been doable so far--we have to search multiple sources sometimes or I let them read the teacher's notes.) Overall, it's been very easy to leave out parts we don't agree with or talk about how we believe something similar. We don't do any of the worldview reading.

 

I know that in year 3, rhetoric level worldview will be assigned a book called Mormonism Explained. I don't think I would like the book, but since we don't cover any worldview, I decided not to worry about it.

 

After 7 weeks in year 2, TOG has been a very doable (and breath of fresh air) resource for this LDS family.

 

Jill

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The Somervilles believe in God's Divine Providence and the teacher's notes and perhaps even some of the student questions reflect that. The picture of God's "Tapestry of Grace" reflects that. Maybe reading their Statement of Faith will help. I have found this line in particular to be true about TOG:

 

 

Yep, that makes sense now!

 

I do think they are very respectful and from many of Marcia's comments on the TOG boards she just seems really sweet and very smart. I certainly don't hold anything against them. I like what Jillian said about very "bold" comments. That's a good way to describe it.

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