Math U See

[CrunchyMand]

Is MUS a comprehensive math program or does it have gaps in its knowledge base? Can I use it on its own?

[Mom22ns]

Comprehensive. At least through the elementary years.

[Surfside Academy]

MUS is a comprehensive program that can be used on it's own. The scope of their material is similar to other programs. Where MUS differs is the sequence in which they present the material. For example, my oldest is learning fractions in the Episilon book (4th grade) where other math curriculums expose fractions as early as 1st grade. My boys have been very successful using MUS. Sue in St. Pete has written an excellent review of MUS that you could find by searching old posts.

[razorbackmama]

Gaps. They are in the finer details, but they are there. We have used all of the elementary levels.

 

I guess some of the things might eventually be covered in pre-algebra and above, but I don't know for sure since we haven't gotten there.

 

Some of the gaps I can think of right off the top of my head:

Elapsed time

Money

Number lines (I know this is introduced in pre-algebra, but IMO that's too late)

order of operations (which caused MAJOR problems as my ds worked through Zeta!!!)

 

I knew some gaps existed, which is why we switched to Math Mammoth. But I didn't realize the EXTENT of those gaps until we started using MM. :001_huh:

[joannqn]

I've found MUS to be comprehensive. It seems like it has gaps because the sequence is so entirely different from other programs. It covers everything, just in a different order. I have both a math gifted student and a math hating student using it. The math gifted student (my 8 year old) is doing MUS Algebra and tests at that level on standardized tests. My math hater tests above grade level (she's grade skipped officially) and well above age level on standardized tests. The math hater is reviewing fractions with Life of Fred. It doesn't surprise me that she needs to review because she cried through much of Delta. She likes Life of Fred but even that has brought her to tears. Saxon was the worst, though. Despite her issues, MUS works well for us and seems to be confirmed by outside testing.

 

Elapsed time time is covered in prealgebra.

 

Money is covered in Beta, Gamma, and Zeta.

 

Order of operations is covered in prealgebra. I don't remember having any order of operations problems in Zeta, though I remember explaining order of operations to my son at some point (I tend to get ahead of myself and teach him all kinds of things before we get to them).

 

Number lines are covered in prealgebra when negative numbers are discussed.

Edited October 23, 2010 by joannqn

[razorbackmama]

I've found MUS to be comprehensive. It seems like it has gaps because the sequence is so entirely different from other programs. It covers everything, just in a different order. I have both a math gifted student and a math hating student using it. The math gifted student (my 8 year old) is doing MUS Algebra and tests at that level on standardized tests. My math hater tests above grade level (she's grade skipped officially) and well above age level on standardized tests. The math hater is reviewing fractions with Life of Fred. It doesn't surprise me that she needs to review because she cried through much of Delta. She likes Life of Fred but even that has brought her to tears. Saxon was the worst, though. Despite her issues, MUS works well for us and seems to be confirmed by outside testing.

 

Elapsed time time is covered in prealgebra.

 

Money is covered in Beta, Gamma, and Zeta.

 

Order of operations is covered in prealgebra. I don't remember having any order of operations problems in Zeta, though I remember explaining order of operations to my son at some point (I tend to get ahead of myself and teach him all kinds of things before we get to them).

 

Number lines are covered in prealgebra when negative numbers are discussed.

 

I know that money as in adding and subtracting is covered, but what about the actual dollars/coins/how to count it stuff? That's what I mean by it missing.

 

All of those other things I feel should be covered WELL before pre-algebra. It just really bothers me that my 1st grader is covering number lines in MM 1A when my 8th grader isn't (he's finishing up Zeta).:001_huh:

[joannqn]

Nickles and dimes are covered Beta. There are chapters called "Skip Counting by 10, 10cents" and "Skip Counting by 5, 5cents". Gamma has a chapter called "4 Quarters = 1 Dollar", another one titled "25 cents = 1 quarter". I don't think fifty cent pieces and dollar coins are covered though.

 

The sequence is different. I'll agree with that. I had a hard time with what I perceived as gaps, at first. But the sequence made so much more sense to me and I looked ahead and found out that what I thought were gaps were covered. MUS might cover some things later than other math programs, but the reverse is also true; MUS covers some things earlier than other math programs, too.

 

I will say that MUS is deficient in in advanced/challenging problem solving so we use Math Olympiad for that.

[parias1126]

Gaps. They are in the finer details, but they are there. We have used all of the elementary levels.

 

I guess some of the things might eventually be covered in pre-algebra and above, but I don't know for sure since we haven't gotten there.

 

Some of the gaps I can think of right off the top of my head:

Elapsed time

Money

Number lines (I know this is introduced in pre-algebra, but IMO that's too late)

order of operations (which caused MAJOR problems as my ds worked through Zeta!!!)

 

I knew some gaps existed, which is why we switched to Math Mammoth. But I didn't realize the EXTENT of those gaps until we started using MM. :001_huh:

This!

 

I just switched my DD to CLE this year and am amazed at the gaps. She is supposed to be in 3rd grade this year, but could never have done the third grade math so we started at 2nd. I love the way MUS presents things, but IMO, there is so much left out along the way...especially telling time and money. There is just not enough of it early enough.

[Surfside Academy]

This!

 

I just switched my DD to CLE this year and am amazed at the gaps. She is supposed to be in 3rd grade this year, but could never have done the third grade math so we started at 2nd. I love the way MUS presents things, but IMO, there is so much left out along the way...especially telling time and money. There is just not enough of it early enough.

 

Interesting...I actually purchased CLE to use as a supplement with MUS. After looking over the equivalent grade material, I sent it back because much of it was repetitive. It's difficult to compare programs when one is mastery (MUS) and one is definitely spiral (CLE); the sequence just isn't the same. It's really a matter of preference and finding what works best for your child.

[Harriet Vane]

It is comprehensive and has no gaps, just a different sequence. MUS was a life saver for us--my dd struggled badly with a spiral approach program before I switched her to MUS. She has scored well on three standardized tests over a five year period.

 

The only supplement I suggest (for this or ANY program) is regular math facts drill. We do this for a quick ten minutes a day.

[Edonian]

We have used MUS since my oldest was in 2nd grade. He is in Algebra 1 now. My second son is doing Zeta in 6th grade, my next doing Gamma in 3rd, and I'm just starting Primer with my K4 child. We test every year, Iowa now, since that is required by our state for homeschoolers. My children always test high in applied problems, and math concepts. They all really understand Math. Everyone seems to like it, but then again, we've only ever done MUS (except my oldest in 1st grade did Saxon and that was a horrible experience, even though I know it is a solid curriculum for so many, just not us). The one weakness that stands out, is that they could do better on the timed portion of their tests. I am using drill sheets just to help them work a little faster. Apart from that, its MUS for us!

[Pamela H in Texas]

It is a comprehensive program. It does have a *significantly* different scope and sequence though so Alpha is not 1st grade, Beta 2nd. You couldn't go seamlessly from Beta to a 3rd grade text. At the same time, you may need to back up to jump into it also.

 

However, EVERY program has a little of this and none of that and a lot of everything else. That is just how it is. There is no way to fit absolutely everything into one thing. My kids used multiple math programs throughout. I would never settle with just one math program.

 

With my friend's then 6yo, I did MUS, MEP, and Horizons.

Edited October 23, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[robsiew]

I really did like MUS, and if my kids struggled at all in math I would have stayed. (I'm considering buying Algebra just for me to use!) However, we did change to Math Mammoth. I get the same conceptual math with a greater variety in problems and word problems that make my kids think.

 

My oldest ds was in Epsilon and I threw Life of Fred, which is very application orientated, at him. He had all the skills to complete the problems, however he didn't know how to USE these skills to solve problems. He was acing his MUS sheets but the word problems were all the same... he could pretty much plug numbers in and get them right. This was true of my K'er also. He didn't even have to read the word problems and he'd get them right.

 

With MM they HAVE to read the problems and they are usually multi-step using past skills, not just the skill being learned. I also like the Puzzle Corners which often times they have to do with me... which tells me there is something that is actually stretching them a bit beyond where they are to pull them up to the next level of thinking.

 

I have nothing bad to say about MUS... I was a bit sad to change, however, for our family it was a good change.

[mytwomonkeys]

This!

 

I just switched my DD to CLE this year and am amazed at the gaps. She is supposed to be in 3rd grade this year, but could never have done the third grade math so we started at 2nd. I love the way MUS presents things, but IMO, there is so much left out along the way...especially telling time and money. There is just not enough of it early enough.

 

this is our experience exactly. we used MUS and R&S in previous years. we switched to CLE and had to start in grade 2 because there were huge gaps. my 3rd grader is only in LU 206.

[razorbackmama]

I really did like MUS, and if my kids struggled at all in math I would have stayed. (I'm considering buying Algebra just for me to use!) However, we did change to Math Mammoth. I get the same conceptual math with a greater variety in problems and word problems that make my kids think.

 

My oldest ds was in Epsilon and I threw Life of Fred, which is very application orientated, at him. He had all the skills to complete the problems, however he didn't know how to USE these skills to solve problems. He was acing his MUS sheets but the word problems were all the same... he could pretty much plug numbers in and get them right. This was true of my K'er also. He didn't even have to read the word problems and he'd get them right.

 

With MM they HAVE to read the problems and they are usually multi-step using past skills, not just the skill being learned. I also like the Puzzle Corners which often times they have to do with me... which tells me there is something that is actually stretching them a bit beyond where they are to pull them up to the next level of thinking.

 

I have nothing bad to say about MUS... I was a bit sad to change, however, for our family it was a good change.

 

This was exactly our experience. My kids were doing GREAT with MUS. But the word problems are very "plug & play," and yep, with MM they have to actually read the problem. They could have made it all the way through MUS without a problem, and I would have had no idea that there were things missing.

 

Also, it's not JUST the altered sequence, although IMO time and money should be covered within the first couple of years (including pictures of the coins, not just how to skip count) rather than "sometime before pre-algebra." Also, it's more of the minutia - how deep the individual topics go. For example, my 1st grader is doing single-digit addition right now (so Alpha stuff). She can use manipulatives if she wants, but they don't stop there. She's drawing pictures, using a number line, etc. My 2nd grader (though he's in MM 1B after a year of Alpha) is learning about subtraction as being more than an amount being "owed" to another. He's learning about fact families (not covered at all in MUS), number lines, taking away, etc. My 6th and 5th graders, when they were taking the placement tests for MM and had to draw a picture representing 4x3, they both drew a rectangle. They had no concept of multiplication being other than an area problem. While YES, that is helpful and does make it easy to think about multiplication at first, multiplication is more than that. Some kids are able to make the leap logically that multiplication is more, but my kids apparently didn't. My 5th grader placed into MM 2A, and my 6th grader is in MM 3B.:001_huh: And that's not just due to the different sort of sequence. It's that they knew the "surface layer" of the math but not the deeper nuances of it.

 

I do know that telling time is covered in an appendix in Alpha, but it is SO convoluted, with the blocks as the numbers. I'm not sure why that would be preferable to just using numbers.:confused:

[Night Elf]

It does have a *significantly* different scope and sequence though so Alpha is not 1st grade, Beta 2nd. You couldn't go seamlessly from Beta to a 3rd grade text. At the same time, you may need to back up to jump into it also.

 

:iagree: This is a very difficult concept for some parents to grasp. They are so used to the grade level approach to subjects, especially math. When something isn't covered in Alpha as it is in traditional 1st grade programs, they say there are gaps. This is NOT a grade level program. It is an ability based or subject based program, IMHO.

 

FWIW, my dd started at Gamma and is now in Algebra 1. Because we use Keystone for high school, I gave her their math placement test. She tested easily into their Algebra 1 class which uses a very traditional high school mathematics textbook. I do remember there were 3 types of problems she didn't know how to do but I can't remember what they were. It just didn't concern me. No curriculum of any subject totally covers every concept, especially in the same order.

[razorbackmama]

:iagree: This is a very difficult concept for some parents to grasp. They are so used to the grade level approach to subjects, especially math. When something isn't covered in Alpha as it is in traditional 1st grade programs, they say there are gaps. This is NOT a grade level program. It is an ability based or subject based program, IMHO.

That's actually NOT why I'm say there are gaps. I realize that MUS covers things in a different order. I'm saying there are gaps because everyone says that when a child goes from Alpha through Zeta, they'll have covered the same material that other curriculums have in grades 1-6. That simply isn't true. Now, apparently many of those things are covered in pre-algebra, but as I said earlier those are topics that probably SHOULD have been covered in the elementary grades.

 

Also, as I shared, the gaps I'm seeing are more in the "finer points" of the different topics. For example, addition is covered, yes. But some of the different ways of viewing addition or different ways of understanding what addition actually IS is not in MUS.

 

I just remembered something else that's not covered in MUS Alpha-Zeta - measurement. My 6th grader had no clue how to measure a line or draw a line a certain length. Perhaps those things are covered in pre-algebra or higher, but IMO a child should know how to do that way before then.

[joannqn]

Measurement is in Epsilon because they need to know fractions in order to measure something that is not exactly an inch...1 7/8 inches, for example.

 

ETA: 12 inches equals a foot is in Beta, 3 feet in a yard is in Gamma, 5,280 feet equals a mile is also in Gamma

Edited October 23, 2010 by joannqn

[razorbackmama]

Measurement is in Epsilon because they need to know fractions in order to measure something that is not exactly an inch...1 7/8 inches, for example.

 

Ah, OK finally found it in the index. I don't remember my kids doing it, but it's there, so who knows.

 

ETA: 12 inches equals a foot is in Beta, 3 feet in a yard is in Gamma, 5,280 feet equals a mile is also in Gamma

Yes, measurement EQUIVALENTS are all over, but actual measuring items isn't so much.

[Night Elf]

That's actually NOT why I'm say there are gaps.

 

Actually, I was referring to the numerous complaints I've heard over many years and seen people argue that it should be considered a grade level program. Sorry you thought I was talking about you specifically.

[razorbackmama]

Actually, I was referring to the numerous complaints I've heard over many years and seen people argue that it should be considered a grade level program. Sorry you thought I was talking about you specifically.

Thanks for clarifying.:001_smile:

 

I'm kind of :001_huh: that people think it should be a grade-level program. That's a big UM, DUH!!!!! They clearly miss the whole POINT.:tongue_smilie: