Mad at the Top Tier Schools

[regentrude]

Um...I thought that's why there were a) entrance requirements & b) remedial classes. :confused:

 

 

There are no entrance requirements for the CC - only an age limit.

 

No, because then kids who can afford the better schools go there, prepared or not. Kids who can't have worthless lists of credits from worthless cc's, intelligent, hard-working, prepared, or not. :glare:

 

Not true. There are great state schools which are inexpensive. An intelligent hardworking student would usually be able to get into one.

 

And it is not possible to make it into the very highly selective schools without the preparation- no matter whether your parents have money.

[regentrude]

I don't understand why there couldn't be standardization of the lower level courses. So there might be 3 choices for Physics: for non-majors, Physics I, Adv Physics.

 

 

Because you can not standardize your students. To stay with the example:

Whoever majors in physics at a school with a graduate program and a definite focus on science and technology has on average a higher aptitude for the subject than a student at a state college without a graduate program... and neither group can measure up to the student body at CalTech or MIT.

The students who would take the non-majors course at CC are different form the ones who are biology majors at a tech school.

 

You can formally standardize "content" - but you can not control the level of rigor and difficulty at which this canon is taught, because that will depend on the abilities of the students, and instructors will tailor their course to their respective student population.

[Laura in CA]

At ours in PA the requirements are that you are 18 or over. For anyone under 18 they must take the college placement test and place into all college level classes (no remedial in any subject or they can't take any classes). All students have to pay $220 per credit hour and fees if there are any.

 

WOW. $220 per credit hour?

 

Here in CA people are whining about $26 / credit hour. It recently increased from $18 / credit hour, up from *free* originally. I guess when you take something that's free and charge for it, people think it's a hardship. I'm sure most people pay more than $26 / month for their cable TV, cell phone plan, etc.

 

Whenever they talk about raising CC tuition here the papers mention that it is "still far lower than any other state," but they don't give actual figures. $220. Wow. Thanks for the info.

 

And sorry -- don't mean to hijack! I have enjoyed regentrude's posts. My husband is a physicist and saw first-hand the difference between a large (50,000+ students) state school and a "top-tier" physics department. Night and day. Mostly, as regentrude says, because of the quality of the uniformly well-prepared, highly intelligent, hard-working, passionate students. Not to say AT ALL that those students don't exist at all schools; he's been hiring several people now who did their physics undergraduate work at giant state schools. It's just, as regentrude says, you can go SO much faster, into so much greater depth, at schools where the students ALL start at a high level and can keep up the breakneck pace ...

Edited February 25, 2011 by Laura in CA
clarity

[creekland]

WOW. $220 per credit hour?

 

Here in CA people are whining about $26 / credit hour. It recently increased from $18 / credit hour, up from *free* originally. I guess when you take something that's free and charge for it, people think it's a hardship. I'm sure most people pay more than $26 / month for their cable TV, cell phone plan, etc.

 

Whenever they talk about raising CC tuition here the papers mention that it is "still far lower than any other state," but they don't give actual figures. $220. Wow. Thanks for the info.

 

And sorry -- don't mean to hijack! I have enjoyed regentrude's posts. My husband is a physicist and saw first-hand the difference between a large (50,000+ students) state school and a "top-tier" physics department. Night and day. Mostly, as regentrude says, because of the quality of the uniformly well-prepared, highly intelligent, hard-working, passionate students. Not to say AT ALL that those students don't exist at all schools; he's been hiring several people now who did their physics undergraduate work at giant state schools. It's just, as regentrude says, you can go SO much faster, into so much greater depth, at schools where the students ALL start at a high level and can keep up the breakneck pace ...

 

I honestly don't know if all cc's in PA charge the same rate or not. I do know that's what ours charges. It took me by surprise at first considering all I'd read on here from people in other areas. It literally cost us $1530 for my middle son to take two courses last semester (one was a 4 hour lab course). I'd have him taking an English course there now, but we simply can't afford it this semester. I'm hoping he has enough with 2 cc courses and his AP Stats test later this May along with HIGH test scores to get in where he wants to with decent merit and need based aid. Time will tell. The competition at places he wants to go is tough, but he has decent back ups if those don't work.

 

I fully agree about the level of students being the bottom line to how much any teacher or prof can do with a class. It's the same way in high school and why it is really annoying at our high school when they throw 12th grade "don't want to be here" students into classes with 10th grade "top academic" students. It's a little better than it used to be. They used to throw grades 9 - 12 together. But then they wonder why our top students don't do well. They can't. They aren't prepared enough. Their brainpower is just fine IF they were challenged to their level, but then the others wouldn't pass.

 

Personally, I feel the same thing happens in cc. You can get some top students looking for a less expensive education, but then you also get those who didn't do all that well in high school and who are now trying for a degree (what cc is supposed to be for IMO). The prof just can't do as much as the top kids are capable of or they'd lose the rest of the class. Granted I'm looking at one cc and just three classes, but in each of the three I've seen that happen. My boys have all had easy A's and considered the classes easier than they thought they would be. Many students got C's or lower and considered them really difficult. CC just isn't the right level for my boys academically. It's not that I want them to get C's, but I do want them to be challenged - esp my pre-med wannabe.

[Storm Bay]

Karin we're getting e-mails. Are we supposed to reply to the e-mails from colleges?

 

Yes' date=' if your email was on there you'll get them. We didn't include ours, so have been getting thing in the mail. It seems to be petering off now (but it could be a pause.) I'm sure we won't get as many snail mail solicitations as we would email, and dd is only a sophomore.

 

I don't understand why there couldn't be standardization of the lower level courses. So there might be 3 choices for Physics: for non-majors, Physics I, Adv Physics.

 

Or at least make colleges *tell* a kid up front that their stuff might not transfer. You know, like a surgeon general's warning. :lol:

 

In addition to the fact that you can't standardize your students, there are other factors to consider. Small high schools can't offer as many courses and tight budgets cause problems, too. A friend of mine in RI, who after talking about it on and off for a couple of years is now homeschooling, just told me about huge cutbacks hitting RI schools (large lay offs, school closings--I'm not sure if that affects high school or not). Physics isn't in the graduation requirements at dd's ps, but Biology is, so they would reduce the number of Physics classes offered before they'd reduce the Biology classes.

[AnitaMcC]

This was an issue for my Ds and I wonder if it is also why he is backing off of attending Columbia for astrophysics.

 

He does not want to repeat any courses. If it was one or two, then maybe he could stomach that. But not an associates degree worth. The purpose of getting the AS is to save money and allow the money saved to go towards the next two years that would be more expensive.

[AnitaMcC]

Hmmm ... do CCs in other states have entrance requirements?! Here in California, the only entrance requirements are that you are (a) 18 or older; (b) breathing.

 

It's been that way at least since the 1970s here ... back when CCs were FREE for anyone at all. Now it's $26/credit hour, and they're raising it soon. Still a steal.

 

~Laura

 

ETA: they also take under-18s grade 10 and up for dual enrollment; those classes are free.

 

Our CC has placement exams. And based on those scores (regardless of what you did/do in high school) is what courses you are allowed to take. If you place in remedial.. that is what you have to take before going on.

[creekland]

This was an issue for my Ds and I wonder if it is also why he is backing off of attending Columbia for astrophysics.

 

He does not want to repeat any courses. If it was one or two, then maybe he could stomach that. But not an associates degree worth. The purpose of getting the AS is to save money and allow the money saved to go towards the next two years that would be more expensive.

 

Would he consider it if he knew the classes were likely to be far more in depth than what he has taken already? Many smart students really enjoy the greater depth and thinking in the more rigorous courses. They get bored when things are too shallow or too easy, and I can fully understand not wanting to repeat those!

[AnitaMcC]

All students have to pay $220 per credit hour and fees if there are any.

 

 

Where is this at???

 

I looked into a few colleges in the area we are moving to and at Luzerne County Community College they charge $84 per credit hour for in county residents. And then for out of county it is doubled.

[AnitaMcC]

Would he consider it if he knew the classes were likely to be far more in depth than what he has taken already? Many smart students really enjoy the greater depth and thinking in the more rigorous courses. They get bored when things are too shallow or too easy, and I can fully understand not wanting to repeat those!

 

 

Yes if the course is an in-depth one then he would enjoy retaking it. But for the basics like English, History, Math... no he doesn't want to retake them.

[creekland]

Where is this at???

 

I looked into a few colleges in the area we are moving to and at Luzerne County Community College they charge $84 per credit hour for in county residents. And then for out of county it is doubled.

 

HACC Gettysburg and we live in the same county. I don't know if it is any different for those outside the county. I don't think so.

[creekland]

Yes if the course is an in-depth one then he would enjoy retaking it. But for the basics like English, History, Math... no he doesn't want to retake them.

 

Does he realize that even the English, History, and Math are in far greater depth too?

 

I've seen what my boys have done for cc classes and what other adults working on their degrees have done there. There's honestly no comparison to a top level school in the depth. Cc is right for many people, but for truly smart (academic smart) students, it could be downright boring. On the other hand, students who are "right" for cc could easily get lost quickly with the more in depth classes as they assume a quicker knowledge of the material. If he's happy with cc, then Columbia might not be the right choice.

 

The whole key to academic life IMO is finding the right fit for the student. It's not a "one size/type fits all" situation.

[AnitaMcC]

HACC Gettysburg and we live in the same county. I don't know if it is any different for those outside the county. I don't think so.

 

 

Also at Luzerne it offers a program for high schoolers that also give a 50% tuition cut. I am hoping Ds and Dd would qualify.

[AnitaMcC]

Does he realize that even the English, History, and Math are in far greater depth too?

 

 

Yes, but for non-science courses he isn't very interested. The issue is the "homework". He doesn't want more of it... LOL. He isn't interested in English, literature, social studies other than for reading it. If all it was about was reading and discussing he would go for it no problem. But to do writing assignments and reports in English 101 at CC and then be required to do it again... nope, he isn't interested.

[AnitaMcC]

The whole key to academic life IMO is finding the right fit for the student. It's not a "one size/type fits all" situation.

 

This is where we are having a difficult time in finding what fits for him. He just hates writing and struggles with it. Being so advanced in math and science isn't helping him because he is so weak in writing and now days even in science and other technical courses, writing papers is part of it.

 

When I was going to college (and I graduated in 2004) I rarely had to write papers except in English, humanities, and social science courses.

 

Ds took a intro to computer course at CC and he had to write 6 papers for the semester course. The computer projects, quizzes, tests were easy for him. But because of the papers, he had a hard time and it was enough to give him a C+ in the course.

 

We thought the computer course would be a great motivator for him... but it didn't help because although he loved the course content, he was down about the papers. Of course the topics on most of them were to do with business ethics and he didn't know anything about such as a 14 yr old.

[choirfarm]

This is where we are having a difficult time in finding what fits for him. He just hates writing and struggles with it. Being so advanced in math and science isn't helping him because he is so weak in writing and now days even in science and other technical courses, writing papers is part of it.

 

When I was going to college (and I graduated in 2004) I rarely had to write papers except in English, humanities, and social science courses.

 

Ds took a intro to computer course at CC and he had to write 6 papers for the semester course. The computer projects, quizzes, tests were easy for him. But because of the papers, he had a hard time and it was enough to give him a C+ in the course.

 

We thought the computer course would be a great motivator for him... but it didn't help because although he loved the course content, he was down about the papers. Of course the topics on most of them were to do with business ethics and he didn't know anything about such as a 14 yr old.

 

Fix his writing as much as you can now. I also have a math science kid who detests writing. I am always telling him that he must do it because all fields use writing. My husband is an orthopaedic surgeon ( Biology major.) He had research papers to write every year until he finished residency at 30 years old. Yep, I typed his papers for him every year in residency. Writing is just a skill you must have even if you don't like it. My 15yo isn't happy about it, but that is just a fact. So tell your son like I tell my son. The world is full of things that you may not like to do, but you must. Be a man and just do it.

[Nan in Mass]

You might look at the Schaffer materials. They got my son to understand how to write something that wasn't just three sentences of fact. That and the five paragraph paper structure (a really strict one) and learning to write an abstract and an outline "fixed" my son.

-Nan

Edited February 26, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[wapiti]

Fix his writing as much as you can now.

:iagree: I just wanted to chime in to say that for a science/math type, writing well - in particular, clearly communicating in all forms of writing, including everything from technical writing to business letters to prepared presentations - can open doors in one's career, or at least keep them from closing. It is an advantage over others who may not have learned to write well in spite of being extremely bright. It may pave the way to higher level positions later on.

 

Come to think of it, I have a friend with a new M.S. in Mechanical Engineering who struggled to find a job after graduating last year (due to the economy) and a key aspect of her prior experience, that helped her finally get a job, was the skill of "translating" from the uber-engineers to the business people through writing well. She's already well-respected by the head of the business.

Edited February 26, 2011 by wapiti

[Storm Bay]

Fix his writing as much as you can now. I also have a math science kid who detests writing. I am always telling him that he must do it because all fields use writing. My husband is an orthopaedic surgeon ( Biology major.) He had research papers to write every year until he finished residency at 30 years old. Yep, I typed his papers for him every year in residency. Writing is just a skill you must have even if you don't like it. My 15yo isn't happy about it, but that is just a fact. So tell your son like I tell my son. The world is full of things that you may not like to do, but you must. Be a man and just do it.

:iagree:, although dd still hates it andn doesn't want to be a man;).

 

My kid brother has a Ph.D. in Physics and so had to not only write, but to get published. Had he chosen to stay in research, he would have had to continue to write and get published, but he opted for a career that allowed him more family time (he has 4 dc and is a big kid himself.)

[regentrude]

My kid brother has a Ph.D. in Physics and so had to not only write, but to get published. Had he chosen to stay in research, he would have had to continue to write and get published, but he opted for a career that allowed him more family time (he has 4 dc and is a big kid himself.)

 

I second this. DH is a physicist and has to constantly write: publications, grant proposals, grant reports... plus teach his grad students how to write *their* theses, papers etc. His performance evaluation is heavily based on how many article in scientific journals he publishes each year.

 

I don't have to write much because I don't have an active research program (I am only an instructor), but everybody who does scientific research has to publish.

[Storm Bay]

I don't have to write much because I don't have an active research program (I am only an instructor), but everybody who does scientific research has to publish.

My db is also only an instructor at a 4 year college (aka university in Canada), but does community service in lieu of research.

[Laurie4b]

I just discovered that if my daughter wants to go to an Ivy League, her dual enrollment credits from CC basically act like high school credit.

 

I find it odd that if she had an associates degree from a community college after high school, she could transfer with ease (relatively speaking with the few spots available for cc transfers), but applying to an Ivy League right from high school, requires a complete restart of college credit.

 

I understand this on one hand- let's be honest, it is community college, not Harvard, but why in the heck don't some of the credits count?

 

Yep, a little rant and rave here- Now we are knocking off about a dozen schools from the future list.

 

In today's economy, it would be stupid to retake everything for the sake of retaking everything- comprehendo?

 

There are plenty of colleges that take the complete degree and she would transfer in as junior right out of high school. But why not the top tier schools?

 

Mad at the top tier schools-:glare:

 

Some of those same schools also do not allow AP credits, CLEP, etc. The thinking is that this is a "______ (fill in the blank with the Ivy you're mad at!) degree. It is not a College Board degree or a community college degree. The Ivys have many more qualified applicants than they can serve. They can have the latitude to do it their way.

[Aubrey]

I just wanted to poke my head back in & tell you guys THANK YOU for letting me eavesdrop on this thread. My oldest is only 10, but I really think you guys may have just made a significant difference in his future--I would never have known to even find out about these things on my own, & I'm afraid that by the time I started looking, it would have been too late anyway.

[Halcyon]

np

[creekland]

I just wanted to poke my head back in & tell you guys THANK YOU for letting me eavesdrop on this thread. My oldest is only 10, but I really think you guys may have just made a significant difference in his future--I would never have known to even find out about these things on my own, & I'm afraid that by the time I started looking, it would have been too late anyway.

 

I've learned a lot from lurking and don't mind at all sharing what I've learned in person and otherwise. In my opinion, freely sharing experiences and knowledge helps everyone. I know I've benefited greatly. It also goes along with the quote in my sig. ;)