Mad at the Top Tier Schools

[Miss Marple]

It is from the university of Oklahoma. We are in Texas and this is ACT range for the 14,000 I think was 29-30. There is of course more for higher scores .. .The 14,000 was one scholarship worth. Also, there were certain GPA's associated with each. OU seemed to me to have an impressive list of academic scholarships. They are rolling though, which is why ds applied early(don't know how much money they have for scholarships, but we didn't want to apply too late!).

 

Barb

 

I've come to conclude that OU is one of the most generous schools with their out of state scholarships! The same scholarship for an in-state student would be $8,000 (over 4 years). It goes up to $20,000 for a 31 ACT for out-of-staters ($10,000 for the same score for in-state).

 

I have yet to see anything equal to this or even close for out of state students. Most offer 1 scholarship for out of state rather than letting them compete for just about all of the scholarships.

OU scholarships

[creekland]

I've come to conclude that OU is one of the most generous schools with their out of state scholarships! The same scholarship for an in-state student would be $8,000 (over 4 years). It goes up to $20,000 for a 31 ACT for out-of-staters ($10,000 for the same score for in-state).

 

I have yet to see anything equal to this or even close for out of state students. Most offer 1 scholarship for out of state rather than letting them compete for just about all of the scholarships.

OU scholarships

 

Alabama is another that offers considerable merit aid to out of state students based on scores. Pitt (PA) does too. Schools that are looking to "up" their academic reputation tend to offer more.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

The trend is for less schools to accept cc credits. I've been told the main reason is because they can't trust the content of the classes.

 

I teach at a community college and there is great variability within a department. The full time faculty have one set of standards and the adjuncts have another. The daytime adjuncts are different than the nighttime adjuncts. The students pick up on this and register for the classes taught by the 'easier' instructors.

 

There is a big difference in an Intro to Psych class taught at an Ivy League school - they have psychology labs which allow for practical experience and the faculty are actively involved in research. The CC where I teach doesn't even have a brain model for faculty to use (I bought my own). My DH is making me a Skinner box and I am working with a local pet store in trying to procure lab rats for in class demonstrations. Our students do not have opportunities to participate in research projects or see how psychological research is conducted.

[justamouse]

I teach at a community college and there is great variability within a department. The full time faculty have one set of standards and the adjuncts have another. The daytime adjuncts are different than the nighttime adjuncts. The students pick up on this and register for the classes taught by the 'easier' instructors.

 

 

 

You have confirmed my suspicions. DS takes allevening classes 4x a week and they ALL last about 1 hour, at the most though they are scheduled for 3. :glare: Methinks people are tired and just want to go home.

[Alyce]

CC was a great plan for us but like PP said it depends a lot on who your professor is. Many kids at the CC love just want to get by and do look for the easier professors. As to NCLB it has been a huge failure in our state and many of the teachers I know (which are quite a few) hate it. Because of it the standards for teaching have been dropped. The teachers get merit raises here if their students do well and pass the end of grade tests so they basically teach to the test. Unfortunately they keep redoing the test every year, make a big deal out of it to the public but in the schools they know they are actually getting easier to pass because the standards are dropped. On paper it looks great because the statistics show more kids are passing and so it looks like they are doing great when in fact just as many kids are being moved up without being able to do the work at the grade they are currently in. The system is just being dumbed down. Our state just announced that they were going to do away with the end of year test and would go back to the old way and let the teachers have a bigger say of who can be promoted based on how they were doing. The problem is that's they way we were doing things 10 years ago when the NCLB act went into effect and every body agreed at that time that the way we were doing things then wasn't working so the end of year testing would be the great solution. Now they have gone from one method that failed, to another method that everyone has known for years was failing, back to a method that we knew at that time was failing. We need to go back and stop listening to parents and keep the kids back if they can't do the work. Expect them to do better than making the material easier. The level of work it took me to graduate high school is about what it takes kids now a days to do to graduate college. It just amazes me how stupid our education has become and we can't seem to figure out why kids in other countries do better than kids in our own. Sorry for the rant. Okay back to OP. It might be a good idea for your child just to finish at the CC and transfer to another school especially if she's done a lot of CC courses and won't get credit for them. Another idea, would the college accept CLEP. Her college courses may make it easier for her to take those and then her college courses wouldn't go to waste. It would still be somewhat redundant but she'd still get some college credit out of the situation.

[Halcyon]

I just discovered that if my daughter wants to go to an Ivy League, her dual enrollment credits from CC basically act like high school credit.

 

I find it odd that if she had an associates degree from a community college after high school, she could transfer with ease (relatively speaking with the few spots available for cc transfers), but applying to an Ivy League right from high school, requires a complete restart of college credit.

 

I understand this on one hand- let's be honest, it is community college, not Harvard, but why in the heck don't some of the credits count?

 

Yep, a little rant and rave here- Now we are knocking off about a dozen schools from the future list.

 

In today's economy, it would be stupid to retake everything for the sake of retaking everything- comprehendo?

 

There are plenty of colleges that take the complete degree and she would transfer in as junior right out of high school. But why not the top tier schools?

 

Mad at the top tier schools-:glare:

 

I went to Yale, and wanted to go to UC Berkeley for a semester. They told me they would accept NONE of the credits. Same thing if I went to Stanford for a semester. And this was (ugh) 20 years ago. Some things don't change.

[Laura in CA]

I went to Yale, and wanted to go to UC Berkeley for a semester. They told me they would accept NONE of the credits. Same thing if I went to Stanford for a semester. And this was (ugh) 20 years ago. Some things don't change.

 

Interesting ... the reverse doesn't seem to be true, at least (*cough*) 25 years ago when I was at Stanford. You could "stop out" anytime (take a leave of absence) & come back when you felt like it. A number of students "stopped out" and did a semester or two at their home-state university to save $$. A good friend of mine did fall semester of sophomore year at the Univ of Alaska (her home state), then came back to Stanford for winter & spring quarters. A boy in my dorm did his entire sophomore year at his state univ (Washington state, I think). The credits must have transferred, b/c the whole point was to save $$$ by going to a cheaper school for part of the four years ...

 

~Laura

[Ellie]

Well, private schools have always been known to be "snobby" regarding what credits they'll accept. The Ivies even more so. The more selective a school, the snobbier they can be. King's College (NYC) told us that dd#1's cc credits would be considered Honors.

Harvard accepted 2 or 3 of David and Micki Colfax's sons. Harvard is pretty Ivy. They had some c.c., but also great portfolios and high SAT scores.

 

Sometimes people get different answers when they talk to different people, Kwim?

[creekland]

Harvard accepted 2 or 3 of David and Micki Colfax's sons. Harvard is pretty Ivy. They had some c.c., but also great portfolios and high SAT scores.

 

Sometimes people get different answers when they talk to different people, Kwim?

 

Oh, no one is saying homeschoolers aren't accepted at these schools. Many are! We're just saying these schools (and many others) tend to not accept cc credits. Most do like seeing cc courses (or AP) on the transcript to better determine ability for acceptance. That's all we're expecting out of our cc credits.

[creekland]

As to NCLB it has been a huge failure in our state and many of the teachers I know (which are quite a few) hate it.

 

Oh, teachers hate it here too... I know better than to openly say I secretly like parts of it. In schools like mine changing to teach to the test is BETTER than what we had. These tests, while super simple (IMO) do actually ask about material one should know if they have had a certain course (Alg, Bio, etc). The majority of our kids can't do them - because they were never presented with nor expected to actually learn the material before now. Even NCLB has ridiculously low standards for percentage levels to pass... and our school can't meet those percentages - until recently - when we've mostly been able to barely squeak by in most areas.

 

Teachers here hate it because it requires them to actually cover more material - meaning more work. Students hate it because it means they have to do more work too. Granted, the bar is low, but when one hasn't even been meeting that bar, any little increase is a good thing educationally.

 

I will freely also say there are aspects about the law that need changing. One example is the fact that ALL kids must pass a certain level. Not all kids CAN pass a certain level - esp if English is not their native language... then they are expected to take, and pass, a test in English before they are fluent in it. How, exactly, does that happen? We had refugees come from Bosnia who spoke exactly NO English - yet they are expected to pass tests in English, math, and now, science that are only given in English? Hello... anyone out there with a working brain think that's truly a good idea? I fail to see why that can't be corrected. There are others who can't pass too... but we could go on and on with examples.

 

Nonetheless, for our school, HAVING to pass these tests has instituted programs that are working better than what we used to have - not what we used to have 30 - 40 years ago when I do believe overall education was better - but what we used to have 10 - 15 years ago or so (and the decline since). I've seen the increase. I also know I'd do a bit more to get a bit higher of an increase (in math - KILL the calculator!), but again, I'd be lynched if I tried on my own. The powers that be at the school would be lynched too with the little they've done if they didn't have someone higher up (NCLB) to throw the blame on. :tongue_smilie:

 

Our school used to have kids that could get a 4 or 5 on AP tests. Those teachers retired - mainly due to the educational trends changing... to become easier. Over the past 10 years the school dropped all AP courses as NO ONE could get more than a 2 (maybe two of those a year). Then they put in "College in the High School" courses which are supposed to be similar to cc courses - using the same text, etc. However, a good number of the kids taking these courses go to colleges, take the placement test, and end up in remedial classes there. What's in name isn't there in reality (for many). But it looks good to tell the public the kids are getting college credit in high school! Many colleges are also starting to not allow these credits either... they've seen students arrive with them and know they can't trust the content (just like cc classes).

 

Of course, with this thread, I'm thinking cc courses may have declined as well. :tongue_smilie: :tongue_smilie:

[Bev in B'ville]

When a college grants a student a degree, the college is basically putting a stamp on them saying, "We certify that this person is educated." Put another way, the college is putting their name and reputation behind the student.

 

My kids have taken CC classes, but quite frankly I am surprised at the lack of rigor in the classes -- and our local CC is supposedly a "good" one. I know that some CC's provide an excellent education, but the colleges have no way to really track which professors at which CC's have high standards. It's easier to say that no credit will be given for CC classes.

 

I have regarded my kids' CC classes as part of my providing the best high school education I can for my kids.

 

In my experience, there is a HUGE difference between the classes at our local CC and the ones my kids are taking at a "most selective" LAC. The LAC classes require much more writing and analysis, much more preparation, and just a higher level of thinking. (Don't throw any tomatoes please!)

 

One last thought -- by not allowing much transfer credit, the college is preventing an underprepared student from landing in a rigorous 200- or 300-level class and sinking.

 

 

Agreeing with Gwen here. My dd is a senior in high school dual enrolled at the local CC as an honor's student. I have been appalled by the lack of rigor. This is her second year as a dual enrolled student in the honor's program and she has yet to write a single paper. Last week in her English class, they watched the grammar rock video series (lolly, lolly, get your adverb here).

 

As she is applying to colleges/universities (and, yes, she's applying to several ivy's) I have (as school's counselor) specifically asked them NOT to accept her cc credits as anything but high school credits for basically two reasons:

 

1) I don't feel that the cc is adequately preparing her to transfer in as a junior and take junior level classes. In fact, more students who transfer in as juniors this way end up struggling and/or dropping out simply because they're not prepared for the level or rigor that's expected of them.

 

2) I used to teach at a major university (in psychology) so I saw this first hand and experienced it myself. There's a lot of maturing and growing that occurs in that 18-21 age range that isn't at all related to academia. I would not want to cheat my dc of those experiences. They need that time to figure out who they are as people and who they will be as adults. Some students are more mature than others, but those four years benefit everyone.

 

If you think about it, your child's GPA will benefit from having to take those classes again, even if they are review for her. The first two years of college are usually spent on core classes. Those are the easier classes, what we called "easy A's." The junior and senior years are spent in the chosen major with the harder classes. Usually, the first two years act as a bolster to the GPA when those more difficult classes are taken (and, yes, many potential employers want to know GPA from college).

 

Other than costs, I see no reason not to let your dd's cc classes count as high school credit. She will benefit from the maturing and the GPA by having those four years.

 

As always, just my $.02.

[Bev in B'ville]

As a college physics instructor, I would like to offer a word of caution (I believe I have written this here before).

The AP content is not necessarily equivalent to the content of the introductory courses the student can opt out of. I would not recommend using AP tests to skip introductory science courses if that is what your student wants to major in - even though the university may accept the AP credit, the university class may go beyond what is covered in AP. It is particularly important if the class is something that is built on (such as a first class in a sequence).

Skipping ALL of calc would have eliminated any issues for Karin's DD - OTOH, skipping calc 1 and being required to take calc 2 and 3 at the university could have backfired.

 

AP is an excellent preparation for university classes, but not in all cases a direct substitute.

 

Agreeing with you on this issue. I had my dd (and now my ds) take only two AP classes, just to show they could do that level of work (as evidenced by the score they received from the test).

 

I know for a fact that at one college my dd is applying to this year that, beginning in Calc I - which is a freshman first semester course - they do not allow calculators, AT ALL. This would be a very new experience for my dd. Even having had Calc I-III at the local cc this year, I would not want my dd starting in her engineering program at a high level, not knowing how to do the calculations without a calculator.

 

Also, don't discount the bonding that occurs between students when they enter college. Friendships that last a lifetime occur frequently in those four years (the whole "we went through hell together and survived" mentality) :) Study groups are formed at the beginning that survive all four years between students with the same major. If your dd transferred in as a junior, she would be missing that. It's hard to integrate and be accepted into a group that's been together for a couple of years already.

Edited October 23, 2010 by Bev in B'ville
grammar and syntax

[Miss Marple]

Agreeing with you on this issue. I had my dd (and now my ds) take only two AP classes' date=' just to show they could do that level of work (as evidenced by the score they received from the test).

 

I know for a fact that at one college my dd is applying to this year that, beginning in Calc I - which is a freshman first semester course - they do not allow calculators, AT ALL. This would be a very new experience for my dd. Even having had Calc I-III at the local cc this year, I would not my dd starting in her engineering program at a high level, not knowing how to do the calculations without a calculator.

 

Also, don't discount the bonding that occurs between students when they enter college. Friendships that last a lifetime occur frequently in those four years (the whole "we went through hell together and survived" mentality) :) Study groups are formed at the beginning that survive all four years between students with the same major. If your dd transferred in as a junior, she would be missing that. It's hard to integrate and be accepted into a group that's been together for a couple of years already.[/quote']

 

:iagree: DS's Calc 1 course at the CC was not accepted as fulfilling the Calc 1 he needed for engineering. It did count as an elective credit. I am so happy that he had to retake the course. Although the same textbook was used, the instructor was much more thorough and did not do everything in his power to make ds succeed. He actually had to learn it well enough to do the work.

 

I would never have considered the friendship thing, but for ds, being away from home , it has been very important. He made friends in that freshman year that are very solid now in his junior year. There is a camaraderie that develops when they have the same course, same instructor. This is a point I would not have understood previously :001_smile:

[creekland]

 

2) I used to teach at a major university (in psychology) so I saw this first hand and experienced it myself. There's a lot of maturing and growing that occurs in that 18-21 age range that isn't at all related to academia. I would not want to cheat my dc of those experiences. They need that time to figure out who they are as people and who they will be as adults. Some students are more mature than others' date=' but those four years benefit everyone.

 

[/quote']

 

:iagree: This, and the reason in your post below that one, are the main reasons we want our guys to have 4 year opportunities - plus we think the actual education tends to be better (pending specific colleges). But it's not 100% about the academic education to us. Been there, done that, loved it, and want the same for our guys... in their niches. My oldest is just a freshman, but is loving it. My other two are looking forward to their chances to go.

[flyingiguana]

And then they will go to college and be robbed of their calculator for many of their math and science classes... ouch.

Many student's basic arithmetic and algebra skills are sorely lacking. I hate to sound like an old geezer, but honestly: we did not use calculators when I went to college and HAD to figure things out without, and that meant we were developing a much better understanding of functions etc.

The students in my algebra and trig based college physics class can not tell me what a sine function looks like, or what the largest value for a sine is. Sad.

 

This is actually one of the reasons I WANT my kids using graphing calculators. Just showing them pictures in a book isn't the same as getting them to graph lots and lots of functions. There's something about inputting the function that gets them to notice what it looks like. Doing it by hand works, but is a lot more time consuming. My kids seemed to get the point better if they did a few by hand and then a whole lot with the calculator.

 

So I like graphing calculators. I think they're a really important tool for learning.

 

They are also required to solve some of the problems on the AP test. You can't solve them without a computer. That's the point of them. However, this doesn't mean a student would be totally lost if the graphing calculator is "taken away" in a later class. It's all in how the course is taught. I don't see any reason to take away such a valuable teaching tool just because some teachers are too lazy or uninformed to use it well.

 

In the last calc course my daughter they were allowed to use any kind of calculator. However, the calculators weren't a lot of help on tests, because the teacher asked questions in such a way that the calculators couldn't answer them. The graphing calculators were still very useful for doing the homework, and the students did not come to "depend" on them because the test questions were just a different beast.

 

BTW, my daughter placed out of Calc 1 and 2 with the AP BC test. She went on to take Calc 3 and got one of the better grades in the class.

 

Placing out of a calc course or two is probably one of the better uses of AP tests. My experience has been that that the student may miss out on a lot if they place out of the science classes with AP, but the calc AP seems to be better at covering the material.

 

The bio AP, for example, seems to cover what a one semester non-majors course would cover. It generally won't replace a full year major's course. The AB calc test takes a full high school year and covers one semester of college calc, so it's more in line with what you'd expect to get out of a college class.

 

And it has seemed to me that students who do the Physics AP tests (even the advanced ones, not the B one) don't seem to understand physics as well. I haven't seen this so much with the students who placed out of calculus using AP.

 

In the end, I think this is a decision that should be made based on the individual student. Some kids find repeating a class to be a huge help in understanding. Others get bored with going over the same material. A professor at a college may think they know what's best, based on what they've seen other kids do, but even that isn't the best way to determine what to do. They're only looking at averages. As a parent, we may have a better idea as to how to advise our kids on this, as we know better how they learn and how much, exactly, they got out of that class they already took.

[creekland]

 

So I like graphing calculators. I think they're a really important tool for learning.

 

 

 

I don't really think any of us hate them. We just hate the over-reliance on them to the point where many students don't know the math - just the calculator buttons.

 

My ideal Calc and Stats teacher/prof would do/use both. They would teach the math without the calculators first, then with, and test both ways. Part of the test could be done with a calculator and part would have to be done without - with questions selected accordingly for both parts.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Fascinating discussion so far!

 

Also' date=' don't discount the bonding that occurs between students when they enter college. Friendships that last a lifetime occur frequently in those four years (the whole "we went through hell together and survived" mentality) :) Study groups are formed at the beginning that survive all four years between students with the same major. If your dd transferred in as a junior, she would be missing that. It's hard to integrate and be accepted into a group that's been together for a couple of years already.[/quote']

 

An excellent point! My dd has already experienced the bonding in her freshman class at one of these universities. They all come in together having been successful in their former high school lives. Regardless of their backgrounds, they're all finding that the levels of reading, thinking, writing and problem-solving required in their new coursework to be higher than previously experienced. She already has formed a study group for her honors math class, and the "we're all in this together" feeling is going strong right now in the midst of mid-terms.:)

 

By the way, her college gives no credit for cc classwork and only limited credit for AP work (math, science, and foreign language only). She had a top score on AP English, but like all the other freshmen, she is required to take a year-long literature class and two quarters of writing & rhetoric. She reports that she's learning a lot, and that the discussions in class are definitely not to be missed. Having interested & engaged classmates helps her own learning along in a way that surpasses her high school experience (and her AP English class in high school was superb).

 

 

I know for a fact that at one college my dd is applying to this year that' date=' beginning in Calc I - which is a freshman first semester course - they do not allow calculators, AT ALL. This would be a very new experience for my dd. Even having had Calc I-III at the local cc this year, I would not my dd starting in her engineering program at a high level, not knowing how to do the calculations without a calculator.[/quote']

 

Bev also makes a good point about the difference in math teaching at lots of universities. My son, an engineering/computer science major, lost his TI calculator during the first month of college. He never bothered to replace it because, as he said, its use was never allowed anyway.

 

And my own personal rant: all math courses, regardless of title, are not created the same. I've taught math at four different universities. What is labeled as Calculus, for example, is a different animal depending on the school. It can be a cut-and-dry class on the mechanics of derivatives and integrals, or it can delve heavily into the theory underlying the math. What I taught to kids in honors classes at Georgia Tech or Carnegie Mellon would never have gone over with my less-prepared kids at Loyola. And what the local community college teaches is well below that...

 

My daughter went into Stanford already having learned multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations at home. We used books that were what I would call rigorous and theoretical (not the typical textbooks like Anton but texts left over from my math major days). But her honors freshman math class at college, which includes all those subjects in an integrated fashion, is *tough*. Challenging is an understatement!:tongue_smilie: There is no way that a community college multivariable calculus class would compare at all....

 

~Kathy

[creekland]

And my own personal rant: all math courses, regardless of title, are not created the same. I've taught math at four different universities. What is labeled as Calculus, for example, is a different animal depending on the school. It can be a cut-and-dry class on the mechanics of derivatives and integrals, or it can delve heavily into the theory underlying the math. What I taught to kids in honors classes at Georgia Tech or Carnegie Mellon would never have gone over with my less-prepared kids at Loyola. And what the local community college teaches is well below that...

 

~Kathy

 

:iagree: And what each student needs to learn for their future is different too. Each place has it's own niche. Our key as parents is to help our students find their correct niche.

 

I know hubby, as a working engineer, has told me more than once that engineering grads differ based on where they went to college. There are places he would hire from easily and others that aren't so desirable as their grads just haven't been as well prepared. More "on the job" training is required to get them up to snuff.

[Miss Marple]

Alabama is another that offers considerable merit aid to out of state students based on scores. Pitt (PA) does too. Schools that are looking to "up" their academic reputation tend to offer more.

 

I'm going to have to check those out :001_smile: While none of my boys can see themselves being that far from home, I know that they may change over the next few years. And if the school is a better fit, and the money is there, well...we should check it out. Thanks for the list.

[regentrude]

This is actually one of the reasons I WANT my kids using graphing calculators. Just showing them pictures in a book isn't the same as getting them to graph lots and lots of functions. There's something about inputting the function that gets them to notice what it looks like. Doing it by hand works, but is a lot more time consuming. My kids seemed to get the point better if they did a few by hand and then a whole lot with the calculator.

 

There are, however, some skills that students will not develop if they have access to a graphing calculator. An analysis of the asymptotic behavior for example. Just thinking about the behavior of the function for values that go towards plus or minus infinity, quickly seeing how different terms contribute and how many and which extrema one can expect without having to go through a full calculus analysis - these things will simply not be developed if the student has a calculator.

For a student heading towards math or science this skill is very beneficial.

 

A lot of things are time consuming if done by hand. Spending time , however, goes a long way towards retaining the information.

 

Btw, the reason that I do not allow calculators in my physics class is not that I am "too lazy or uninformed" as you put it. First, there are skills I want the students to develop which consist in analytical solutions of problems. Second, if modern calculators are allowed on exams it is virtually impossible to control what the students have access to and to ensure a level playing field. For these reasons, our department does not use calculators in calculus based introductory physics.

[kiana]

My daughter went into Stanford already having learned multivariable calculus, linear algebra, and differential equations at home. We used books that were what I would call rigorous and theoretical (not the typical textbooks like Anton but texts left over from my math major days). But her honors freshman math class at college, which includes all those subjects in an integrated fashion, is *tough*. Challenging is an understatement!:tongue_smilie: There is no way that a community college multivariable calculus class would compare at all....

 

~Kathy

 

Side-track -- would you mind sharing a) what books you used (even math majors courses sometimes use books like Anton now, at my undergrad for example -- I didn't learn linear properly until I went to grad school) and b) what books, if any, your daughter is using? I'm highly interested.

[Caroline]

There are, however, some skills that students will not develop if they have access to a graphing calculator. An analysis of the asymptotic behavior for example. Just thinking about the behavior of the function for values that go towards plus or minus infinity, quickly seeing how different terms contribute and how many and which extrema one can expect without having to go through a full calculus analysis - these things will simply not be developed if the student has a calculator.

 

 

Students with graphing calculators learn asymptotic behavior in my analysis class every year.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Sure, I'd be glad to share.:)

 

For multivariable calculus, I really like Vector Calculus by Marsden & Tromba very much; used it with both kids.

 

My dd used Differential Equations with Applications and Historical Notes by George Simmons. With my son, I'd used the Diff Eq text that MIT uses, because that's where he was going and we thought maybe he could place out of the course. It turned out not to be a simple matter to place out, so he went ahead and repeated the class there, using that same text. Not the same course at all! His prof just used the book as a general guide, inserting much theory as he went. Since I didn't like the text all that much, I had my dd use my old Simmons text instead.

 

For linear algebra, my son used my old volumes of Apostol's Calculus (one of my favorites). My daughter actually used a more modern text on the advice of one of her mathcamp mentors: Linear Algebra Done Right by Sheldon Axler. We worked through it together last year & I'd highly recommend it.

 

This quarter at Stanford, she's using a book that her professor wrote: An Introduction to Multivariable Mathematics by Leon Simon. She says that it's almost a verbatim copy of his lectures, which she finds fairly accessible. But the problem sets (found online here) are a true challenge - she says that's where the learning is really taking place.

 

~Kathy

[TXMary2]

Will they accept CLEP tests? If so she could take the CLEP test and receive the college credit. There would be a cost for the CLEP, but it may be worth it if the schools accept it.

[kiana]

Thanks Kathy!

[regentrude]

Students with graphing calculators learn asymptotic behavior in my analysis class every year.

 

Good to know. I do not doubt that the students get taught this, but I notice that they can't apply it in physics.

This trend is seen by all of my colleagues. And not just in the younger undergraduates, but in the graduate students as well. Analysis of functions without a calculator, graphing of functions (with a computer) in a sensible range (i.e. recognizing where interesting behavior happens and where not), etc.

And the only explanation we have is that they don't learn it as thoroughly as we had to, lacking calculators.

[G5052]

Thirty years ago the Ivy League schools didn't accept community college or AP credits either, BUT having them helped you get in. My family didn't have that type of budget, but my high school sent several dozen to the Ivies every year.

 

I ended up at a private mid-tier school with a decent aid package. They didn't accept any community college credit no matter where it was from and just a few APs.

 

Then I transferred to a technical state school that didn't accept ANY college credit unless it was in the humanities (and thus apparently of secondary importance) and on paper no AP credit. I somehow talked them into counting my AP for English 101 and 102 in exchange for agreeing to take technical writing my first semester there. I also had to take placement tests in math and the sciences before registering, which could have given me credit, but virtually everyone I knew had to start over. Basically they didn't trust any other school!

[Elizabeth in WA]

Sure, I'd be glad to share.:)

 

For multivariable calculus, I really like Vector Calculus by Marsden & Tromba very much; used it with both kids.

 

My dd used Differential Equations with Applications and Historical Notes by George Simmons. With my son, I'd used the Diff Eq text that MIT uses, because that's where he was going and we thought maybe he could place out of the course. It turned out not to be a simple matter to place out, so he went ahead and repeated the class there, using that same text. Not the same course at all! His prof just used the book as a general guide, inserting much theory as he went. Since I didn't like the text all that much, I had my dd use my old Simmons text instead.

 

For linear algebra, my son used my old volumes of Apostol's Calculus (one of my favorites). My daughter actually used a more modern text on the advice of one of her mathcamp mentors: Linear Algebra Done Right by Sheldon Axler. We worked through it together last year & I'd highly recommend it.

 

This quarter at Stanford, she's using a book that her professor wrote: An Introduction to Multivariable Mathematics by Leon Simon. She says that it's almost a verbatim copy of his lectures, which she finds fairly accessible. But the problem sets (found online here) are a true challenge - she says that's where the learning is really taking place.

 

~Kathy

 

To side track (although my kids wont be there for a few years yet) ... what do you think of Simmon's Calculus book? I noticed that is is the one used in the MIT OCW single variable calculus course. It is, however, super expensive, even used at present. Is it worth it? Is it worth it specifically assuming a desire to use the MIT video lectures?

 

Thanks!

[Kathy in Richmond]

 

Elizabeth, I've never had a chance to see Simmon's calculus text. I'd guess that it's terrific, though, based on his differential equations book. I love his writing style & the way he weaves historical tidbits throughout his book, almost like a narrative at times.:) His combination of not skimping on the theory and giving problems that cover a wide range of abilities is very nicely done imho. But I peeked at the price of the calculus book...ouch!

 

 

[Storm Bay]

But somehow I don't think you are fresh out of high school, your algebra and trig is maybe 3-4 years past, and you are currently taking calculus at college - that's the thing that boggled my mind.

:lol: :tongue_smilie: Of course not--I graduated from high school more than 30 years ago. However, math came very easily to me back then and it was quite disconcerting to find that I couldn't teach my dc Algebra unless I relearned it. My girls can learn Algebra 1 on their own for the most part, but ds is definitely going to need a teacher.

[Storm Bay]

And my own personal rant: all math courses, regardless of title, are not created the same. I've taught math at four different universities. What is labeled as Calculus, for example, is a different animal depending on the school. It can be a cut-and-dry class on the mechanics of derivatives and integrals, or it can delve heavily into the theory underlying the math. What I taught to kids in honors classes at Georgia Tech or Carnegie Mellon would never have gone over with my less-prepared kids at Loyola. And what the local community college teaches is well below that...

 

 

~Kathy

 

This is good to know--I was turned off of math before Calculus (there was NO Calc taught in high school where I grew up) so I never ended up taking it, sad to say. This means I am clueless as to what it all entails. Dd doesn't want to go to a CC anyway, but is going to have to be responsible for her college costs (she can live at home if there is a good school within commuting distance; there are a few private & state colleges that meet that criteria.)

[Lux Et Veritas Academy]

I guess what really bothers me is "Why would they accept a community college transfer post high school with credit... no problem ...(with limited spots of course) but not a high schooler?

[choirfarm]

I guess what really bothers me is "Why would they accept a community college transfer post high school with credit... no problem ...(with limited spots of course) but not a high schooler?

 

I guess my question would be how many of those do they REALLY accept. 10? And if they accept them, do they make them redo hours? They could accept a very limited number of transfers not to affect them very much, but if they accepted all freshman with hours from CC it would affect the quality of the students.

 

Christine

[kiana]

I guess what really bothers me is "Why would they accept a community college transfer post high school with credit... no problem ...(with limited spots of course) but not a high schooler?

 

Well, spots are more limited and credit isn't guaranteed acceptance for courses anyway. My younger brother recently transferred from a CC to an Ivy -- he had 70 credits at the CC and they took 48, and his is a very good CC. Sometimes, also, they will accept credits but tell you "If you want to major in this area, rather than just satisfy a distribution requirement, you should retake this course to be best prepared for upper-division courses.

 

ETA: Oh, and he is working his little tuchas off and astonished at the difference in rigor.

Edited October 25, 2010 by kiana

[Laura in CA]

I guess my question would be how many of those do they REALLY accept. 10?

 

Interesting (from Princeton's site):

 

 

Is it possible to transfer to Princeton from another college or university?

 

No. At this time, Princeton is not able to offer transfer admission. Any student who has graduated from secondary school and enrolled as a full-time degree candidate at another college or university is considered a transfer applicant and isn't eligible for undergraduate admission.

 

Also interesting, just below that question:

 

Does Princeton consider applicants who have been home schooled?

Yes. We receive and consider applications from home schooled students every year. In fact, the valedictorian of the Princeton Class of ’02 was home schooled before entering Princeton. Review our tips for home schooled students.

[memphispeg]

I haven't read the whole thread here but, all the kids who go to elite colleges have taken the most rigorous curriculum possible. As far as transferring credit goes, why would you want to take fewer classes over the 4 years that you go to those schools, if anything you want to take as much as you can. My dd daughter goes to one of those schools, she took AP tests and SAT 2s and got placement (math, foreign language, bio). But, laughably, she is not interested in any of those subjects and is majoring in something that she started on at college. I think the best advanced courses to take during hs would be in f. lang, math, science, and lit/writing. They are hard to begin to learn at college and so what if the college stuff is a bit redundant...you're ahead of the game!!!!

[Aubrey]

I don't agree. From the 2 CCs we have used in 2 different states, the classes have been subpar. I don't blame top schools from expecting students to retake the material. The classes that our 18 yos is taking at a supposedly very good CC are so subpar that I don't even believe they are the equivalent to high school level work. His English papers have been nothing more than journal entries; his business course consists of responding to 2 questions on a discussion forum (a couple of sentences each!!! :confused:)

 

This is infuriating--instead of punishing kids who go to cc unwittingly, someone should revoke the cc's accreditation! I thought the whole point of accreditation was to offer some kind of standard. This is sounding more & more like Bill Gates!

 

(This thread makes me hyperventilate, & my oldest is only 10.)

[creekland]

This is infuriating--instead of punishing kids who go to cc unwittingly, someone should revoke the cc's accreditation! I thought the whole point of accreditation was to offer some kind of standard.

 

Sadly, this isn't likely to happen, but I agree with you. It'd be nice if there were certain standards that could be expected from having passed a certain course.

 

But that doesn't even happen in high school where there are SUPPOSED to be standards.

 

In many places grades are inflated while the real education that is supposed to be supporting those grades is on the decline.

[regentrude]

This is infuriating--instead of punishing kids who go to cc unwittingly, someone should revoke the cc's accreditation! I thought the whole point of accreditation was to offer some kind of standard.

 

But the CC can only work with the student material they have. As long as the kids come out of high school unprepared for anything remotely resembling a college education, the CC can only pick up the pieces and do remedial classes at best.

You can't have standardized classes, because the highschools do not put out students with standardized abilities.

 

In a sense, it is a good thing about the educational system in this country that there are colleges for every level of ability so that everybody can get a chance to further his education. Of course, that also means one has to do research before choosing an institution.

[regentrude]

It'd be nice if there were certain standards that could be expected from having passed a certain course.

 

But that would be completely unrealistic.

If I just take my field, for example, physics. Having taken a "Physics course" means very different things, depending on the school and on the major: there are conceptual courses for humanities majors which fulfill a general eduction requirement. There are algebra and trigonometry based classes for life science majors and pre-meds. There are calculus based courses for engineering majors and different ones for physics majors.

They differ in material covered, level of difficulty, focus areas - because the student's needs and abilities are very different.

Even the course for the same audience will be different at different schools; a highly selective school has better students and can teach harder material whereas a non-selective school will have to teach students with lower skills and thus it will be impossible to do the same thing (CalTech has different students than a state school)

 

It would make no sense to "standardize" the class.

[Storm Bay]

It would make no sense to "standardize" the class.

:iagree: Aside from all of the good arguments already presented, it also would mean greater governmental control education than there already is. If it were done, it might have an effect on what colleges would expect from homeschoolers.

 

Dd, a sophomore, did well on her PSAT, and is now receiving info from colleges daily (including CalTech). We're putting them in a file for the moment, and when they slow down, we'll go through them and decide which ones we want to send for further information from based on how good they actually are. CalTech claims that all of their classes are taught by professors, but I'm sure that the price tag will be out of reach. (plus, MIT is a lot closer.)

[FaithManor]

Our local Cc is sub-par. Students get points for not sleeping in class. They allow students to get a passing grade even if they skip 40% of the classes and only turn in 50% of the homework. It's an associate's degree mill because the state gives them a huge amount of money for "job retraining" because of the huge unemployment rate in Michigan. Our state schools refuse to accept their credits for any reason.

 

Some people have good Cc's nearby, some don't. There is very little control over content and instruction in Michigan CC's that it makes sense that four year institutions are skeptical and Ivies are Ivies, if I were them and I were issuing degrees that carry that kind of reputation, I'd be very careful what I accepted from another college. After all, your reputation is seriously on the line with the educational community at large. Once one receives the reputation of being an Ivy or top tier university, one is loathe to jeopardize that by accepting credits that can't really be verified as "good".

 

Faith

[4wildberrys]

I have mixed feelings about this news. On the one hand, it makes total sense to me. CC is NOT Ivy League---and while it is nice to circumvent entry level college classes, and of course some kids do have the aptitude to take actual college level classes and do well, I would think most kids just aren't ready for that level yet and so it seems like has been said (although I have NO experience with this) that obviously a lot of CC classes are at high school level. It just seems to me that rushing through classes by CLEP'ing or graduating high school with a CC AA degree could possibly hold less value than actually taking the time to finish high school and then go on to 'real' college level classes..On the flip side----CC seems to be such a great way to circumvent the HUGE costs of college these days, and colleges (even Ivies) not accepting any CC credits seems a bit unfair. I wonder if they could test to see if your daughter, or anyone else, really is ready or not for their undergrad classes?

[creekland]

it also would mean greater governmental control education than there already is.

 

I would never let government decide the standards... I don't like that governments decide the standards for ps now. In "my" world a related industry or similar would decide the standards and there would be different names and levels that could easily distinguish conceptual from super rigorous and/or theoretical.

 

And it would only be for basic classes (the Freshman/Sophomore variety of those). Once one gets into upper level classes a bit more freedom to specialize is definitely needed. Right now we have English 101. That name alone with no standards at all leaves a lot to the imagination - and is why many courses from school A won't transfer to school B.

 

I do fully agree with another post (regentrude I think) that said it's great that we have all levels of higher education from CC to Top U #1.

 

And I'm theorizing. I'm sure there are cons to my thoughts and exceptions. There's no way that works for everyone and every situation. I just don't like the current system all that much (but am learning about it to best advise my boys as they choose colleges).

[Teachin'Mine]

 

Dd, a sophomore, did well on her PSAT, and is now receiving info from colleges daily (including CalTech). We're putting them in a file for the moment, and when they slow down, we'll go through them and decide which ones we want to send for further information from based on how good they actually are. CalTech claims that all of their classes are taught by professors, but I'm sure that the price tag will be out of reach. (plus, MIT is a lot closer.)

 

Karin we're getting e-mails. Are we supposed to reply to the e-mails from colleges?

[Murphy101]

All the home schoolers here default to the local community college and most of the PS kids do to. Which is a shame bc there are several other college options here that get almost zero discussion.

 

Even years ago when I was in high school the local CC was called, NameOfYourHighSchool Extended High for a reason.

 

With a few exceptions for decent instructors, I would say our community college is nothing more than a remedial stop gap. In fact, many of the courses are taught by part time PS high school teachers.

 

I wouldn't automatically discredit using the local CC, but I will be uber careful in the subject and instructor selected.

 

And as always, no guarantees of transferring credit.

[Aubrey]

But the CC can only work with the student material they have. As long as the kids come out of high school unprepared for anything remotely resembling a college education, the CC can only pick up the pieces and do remedial classes at best.

You can't have standardized classes, because the highschools do not put out students with standardized abilities.

 

Um...I thought that's why there were a) entrance requirements & b) remedial classes. :confused:

 

In a sense, it is a good thing about the educational system in this country that there are colleges for every level of ability so that everybody can get a chance to further his education. Of course, that also means one has to do research before choosing an institution.

 

No, because then kids who can afford the better schools go there, prepared or not. Kids who can't have worthless lists of credits from worthless cc's, intelligent, hard-working, prepared, or not. :glare:

[Aubrey]

:iagree: Aside from all of the good arguments already presented, it also would mean greater governmental control education than there already is. If it were done, it might have an effect on what colleges would expect from homeschoolers.

 

Dd, a sophomore, did well on her PSAT, and is now receiving info from colleges daily (including CalTech). We're putting them in a file for the moment, and when they slow down, we'll go through them and decide which ones we want to send for further information from based on how good they actually are. CalTech claims that all of their classes are taught by professors, but I'm sure that the price tag will be out of reach. (plus, MIT is a lot closer.)

 

I don't understand why there couldn't be standardization of the lower level courses. So there might be 3 choices for Physics: for non-majors, Physics I, Adv Physics.

 

Or at least make colleges *tell* a kid up front that their stuff might not transfer. You know, like a surgeon general's warning. :lol:

[Laura in CA]

 

Originally Posted by regentrude

But the CC can only work with the student material they have.

 

Um...I thought that's why there were a) entrance requirements & b) remedial classes. :confused:

 

 

Hmmm ... do CCs in other states have entrance requirements?! Here in California, the only entrance requirements are that you are (a) 18 or older; (b) breathing.

 

It's been that way at least since the 1970s here ... back when CCs were FREE for anyone at all. Now it's $26/credit hour, and they're raising it soon. Still a steal.

 

~Laura

 

ETA: they also take under-18s grade 10 and up for dual enrollment; those classes are free.

[creekland]

Hmmm ... do CCs in other states have entrance requirements?! Here in California, the only entrance requirements are that you are (a) 18 or older; (b) breathing.

 

It's been that way at least since the 1970s here ... back when CCs were FREE for anyone at all. Now it's $26/credit hour, and they're raising it soon. Still a steal.

 

~Laura

 

ETA: they also take under-18s grade 10 and up for dual enrollment; those classes are free.

 

At ours in PA the requirements are that you are 18 or over. For anyone under 18 they must take the college placement test and place into all college level classes (no remedial in any subject or they can't take any classes). All students have to pay $220 per credit hour and fees if there are any.

 

The college does offer several remedial classes, but they aren't open to anyone under 18. High school students taking anything higher than freshman level classes need to have the professor's permission (most, if not all, allow it until the first test, then give their "say" on the matter).