Crossing out prepositional phrases first, then analyzing the sentence--OK or not?

[Chris in VA]

Dd is not fond of Rod and Staff--we have done part of Gr.2 and all of 3. Next year, if we homeschool, I don't know if I want to switch or not.

 

I am looking around (it would be 6th grade), and have noticed some programs have you knocking out the prepo phrases, and then analyzing/diagramming the sentences. This is how I was taught. R&S hasn't even covered the prepostions yet.

 

Is there any "danger" to this seemingly good short cut? As grammar gets more complex, would that practice hinder us?

 

BTW, I think it's Easy Grammar that I'm thinking of.

[lmrich]

It sure makes it easy. We apply that technique to every grammar program, and it is the way EG teaches it.

[Snickerdoodle]

We don't cross them out, we put them in parenthesis. :D

[Veritaserum]

I think it's ok as log as you put them back in. :) When we diagram, we first find the simple subject and the verb and write them on the diagram. Then we add all the other parts.

[Chris in VA]

We don't cross them out, we put them in parenthesis. :D

 

Actually, that's what I did in 7th grade grammar--thanks for the reminder!

And yep, we put them back in, too!:D

 

Good to know it's ok.

 

I was recalling a thread where someone said not to memorize prepos because sometimes they are not used as such in a sentence, and it gets confusing in the upper levels of grammar--so I was thinking maybe of not teaching the "getting the pp's out of the way first" technique, thinking maybe it's more confusing. I guess teaching how to spot the phrase (has an object, too) instead of just the prepo itself, would be a good thing.

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

Off to see if Easy Grammar would be a good thing to try.

[Snickerdoodle]

I think that parsing the sentence first helps whether you are doing the 4 level analysis MCT style or whether you are doing diagramming. I always have my son do a cursory parsing of the sentence before really analyzing or diagramming.

[Chris in VA]

Can you explain parsing? Thanks--perhaps I'm using "analyzing" incorrectly.

[Snickerdoodle]

What I mean is that I just have him write one line under the subject, two under the predicate, parenthesis around prep phrases, arrows for adjectives and adverbs. It is helpful for him to do this first because when he does the 4 level analysis MCT style where he does the parts of speech line first, he would often misidentify verbals. Does this make any sense? :D (I need more coffee.) I'm talking about 4th grade level here.

[ChrissySC]

Hmmm ... R&S teaches to find the complete predicate and complete subject first. Draw a line between the two. Find the simple predicate (verb phrase in other programs) and mark. Find and mark the verb (sometimes circling). Identify the simple subject by asking questions on the simple predicate/verb. These are standard methods for 3 and 4 of R&S.

 

Perhaps it is the method of picking out the subject and the verb that leads to the confusion with the prep. phrases? We have the steps on a laminate print with the questions to ask. They, of course, are almost memorized at this point! LOL Perhaps index cards or a similar printout would help?

[Matryoshka]

We don't cross them out, we put them in parenthesis. :D

 

Yup, that's what we do too - just use brackets. We did a year of EG, then switched to MCT, and we still usually bracket off the prep. phrases first.

 

Identifying them as phrases right off the bat also eliminates any chance of mistaking an adverb or conjunction as a preposition (because there are words that can function as either of those).

[HappyGrace]

:bigear:

 

I was taught this way too (parentheses around prep phrases first) and had the same question about teaching it to dc! :lurk5:

[MerryAtHope]

Actually, that's what I did in 7th grade grammar--thanks for the reminder!

And yep, we put them back in, too!:D

 

Good to know it's ok.

 

I was recalling a thread where someone said not to memorize prepos because sometimes they are not used as such in a sentence, and it gets confusing in the upper levels of grammar--so I was thinking maybe of not teaching the "getting the pp's out of the way first" technique, thinking maybe it's more confusing. I guess teaching how to spot the phrase (has an object, too) instead of just the prepo itself, would be a good thing.

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

Off to see if Easy Grammar would be a good thing to try.

 

We're using Easy Grammar Plus right now, and I think it's a great technique! BTW, EG teaches kids how to recognize the "not pp's." The sentences start off easy so that there's no confusion & they teach what a pp is. Then it will teach other things such as infinitives and have kids practice spotting the infinitives vs. the prep. phrases, etc...

 

So far the method and book seem pretty solid in the approach. Wish I'd tried it years ago!

 

Merry :-)

[Crimson Wife]

I haven't yet taught diagramming but when we do MCT 4 level diagramming I often have my DD find the phrases first.

[swimmermom3]

You will not like my answer, Chris. Swimmer Dude is the only child I know that came out of Easy Grammar 5 still not knowing what a preposition really is or how it works. When we covered prepositions the following year in MCT, his comment was, "Well, why didn't they (Easy Grammar) explain that, instead of giving me a list of words to memorize." Nouns and verbs are the roots of the sentence. Sometimes, I feel like crossing out prepositions is a bit like the process of elimination used on standardized test questions. You resort to that because you are not solid on what is really being asked.

[LindaOz]

Yup, that's what we do too - just use brackets. We did a year of EG, then switched to MCT, and we still usually bracket off the prep. phrases first.

 

Identifying them as phrases right off the bat also eliminates any chance of mistaking an adverb or conjunction as a preposition (because there are words that can function as either of those).

 

:iagree:

 

My dd is doing R&S 6 and is getting confused when having to identify pronouns as pred nominative, subject, direct object, indirect object, or object of the preposition. After I taught her to identify prepositional phrases first, it became easier for her to analyze the rest of the sentence.

[ArizonaGirl]

Often, my boys will have a hard time correctly identifying the subject or verb in a sentence. When I ask them to find the prepositional phrases first, they can then easily find the subject and verb.

 

Identifying prepositional phrases simplifies everything else.

[Denise Allen]

Rod & Staff does have you put them in parenthesis in the later grades. At least in grade 6 (maybe before, but we just started using R & S this year...)

[mcconnellboys]

I don't know if there's anything wrong with this or not. All I know is that I used R&S 2 and 3 and had no problems with them. Then I switched to Abeka for three years. This year I decided to go back to R&S (7) and I absolutely hated it (and so did my son)! I've got Easy Grammar Plus on order. I've looked over one that a friend is using and she really has been pleased with it - so I'm hopeful that we'll get back on track with grammar without my son groaning every time I pull out the book (because I just don't think grammar needs to be that way....)

[Denise Allen]

It is so funny how we are all so different. We used Abeka grammar from the beginning- my oldest is now 13- and we all LOVE Rod and Staff. It explains things so much better, and is just logical. We are learning things from R & S that Abeka never addressed.

 

I should mention we do quite a bit orally. I so wish we has used it from the beginning. We love grammar at our house though- I feel it is very thorough.

[angela in ohio]

I agree that it is different for different people. One of my dds can't identify a prepositional phrase until she knows the subject and verb, the other has to get the prepositions out of the way first. I try to teach several methods for everything, and explain it as a toolbox I am supplying them with. They need to choose which tool works best for them and when they need it. (Rabbit trail: I've been reading research, albeit in math, that girls are more open to creativity and problem solving if they are taught that there are multiple right ways to find a solution to the example problems, whereas it doesn't matter much for boys if they are shown only one method.)

 

As far as memorizing the prepositions... that conversation was about the individual prepositions, which can be difficult to identify without context. There is much less worry of that when you are talking about prepositional phrases, as you have the context.

 

I was taught to first identify the simple subject and verb, then put parentheses around the prepositional phrases, by my excellent grammar teacher, Mrs. Berg, in seventh grade. :D

[Mommyfaithe]

It sure makes it easy. We apply that technique to every grammar program, and it is the way EG teaches it.

 

YEP!! We do too. I learned this in EG the first year we hs'ed...back when there was only ONE level!! LOL. I have applied this to every grammar program since. Makes life so easy...but we don't cross out...we bracket and then define the pos the Pp represents.

 

HTH,

Faithe

[home4school]

. When we covered prepositions the following year in MCT, his comment was, "Well, why didn't they (Easy Grammar) explain that, instead of giving me a list of words to memorize."

 

We're using EG right now, so you've gotten my curiousity up. How does MCT teach prepositions?

 

Thanks,

Kim:bigear:

[anneofalamo]

EG taught me! I was hopeless in Grammar all through school. I did the 3rd grade over Christmas last year.

I didn't have my kids memorize the prepositions, we learned if it can be done to a box (over, under, in) and a few exceptions. :lol:

 

I love EG especially after bringing kids out of public school at 4th & 5th and them clueless to Grammar. We did 2 years in one year, and just yesterday, we finally finished 4th grade and my 3 graduated to 5th grade Easy Grammar!!

 

They speak and write so much better! I find myself really trying not to end my sentences with prepositions.

 

 

big plus, the Daily Grams are a good independent time!!