Confused--can a child who is strong in Math/Science have NLD???

[homeschoolally]

We're in the early stages of getting the results of a psychoed eval for my 7th grade son. The psychologist isn't finished with the report yet, so I haven't been able to see any test results, but she has asked me to research NLD, specifically Rourke's work and get back to her with my thoughts.

 

We did this evaluation only to get accommodation for outside classes and standardized testing. I was expecting to get a dyslexia/dysgraphia diagnosis. This has really caught me by surprise because he has made some incredible gains this year. :confused:

 

He is strong in math and science. He's doing Alg 1, aces science reasoning tests--and enjoys doing them. His only issue with math is very low fluency on timed tests and careless executive mistakes. His academic weaknesses are in writing, spelling and executive issues--I hadn't suspected any problem with math and science comprehension in the least. He really 'gets' it--he's not relying on rote memorization.

 

I'm also confused about the spelling/decoding/comprehension issues. His comprehension scores are always way higher than his decoding subtests on the Woodcock Johnson. This year I think it was a 10 grade gap--I'll have to double check that to be sure, but it was a huge difference. His spelling is years below grade level, even though we've done all kinds of tutoring/interventions for it. I keep reading that kids with this diagnosis are strong phonetically and great spellers.

 

There are definitely learning issues--and he does meet a LOT of the criteria for NLD-- I'm just wondering if these math/science/spelling/decoding issues contradict an NLD diagnosis. They are polar opposite of what I'm reading about NLD. I don't want to argue with the psychologist, and I know he has learning disabilities--but I can't see how he fits this diagnosis based on what I'm reading. The math/science stuff seems to be a pretty dominant theme in what I've read.

 

Thanks for any input. I appreciate it very much. This diagnosis is totally new to me and I want to understand if I'm missing something.

 

BTW--I think this psych is very competent. I'm thinking there must have been some crazy scores on his Beery visual spatial testing or something along those lines to lead her in this direction.

Edited October 13, 2010 by homeschoolally

[Guest]

Interesting question. My dd had first an Asperger's diagnosis and then, at age eleven, a full neuropsych evaluation ended with a diagnosis of NLD. Dd is very strong in math -- but conceptual math, logic, mental thinking "tricks" with numbers, abstract issues. She was doing basic algebra before she could accurately count out the number of candles for her birthday cake or accurately count change, though; and computation lagged behind. In science she is far ahead again in terms of abstract thinking and understanding, but her motor and visual issues make lab work very difficult and even scary for her.

 

Rourke's writing is not the first place I'd go. From what I understand, it's extreme in its views and gives a discouraging outlook. Take a look instead at Rhondalyn Whitney's Nonverbal Learning Disorder. It's changed the way I look at NLD.

 

Not everything about dd fits with what I read, still. I think it's a bit like kids on the spectrum: you've seen one, so you know... one. Every child with NLD may well have a unique set of "buttons," or symptoms/issues/however you want to think of it. Like Asperger's, we may eventually understand it to have a bunch of different aspects and origins and manifestations which present differently from person to person. I think it's important to remember that studies of this particular neurological syndrome are still in their infancy. Also, kids who get one-on-one help and interventions are going to have far different outlooks than kids who go undiagnosed and untreated.

 

Hope this helps...

[HeidiD]

There are definitely learning issues--and he does meet a LOT of the criteria for NLD-- I'm just wondering if these math/science/spelling/decoding issues contradict an NLD diagnosis. They are polar opposite of what I'm reading about NLD. I don't want to argue with the psychologist, and I know he has learning disabilities--but I can't see how he fits this diagnosis based on what I'm reading. The math/science stuff seems to be a pretty dominant theme in what I've read.

 

Thanks for any input. I appreciate it very much. This diagnosis is totally new to me and I want to understand if I'm missing something.

 

BTW--I think this psych is very competent. I'm thinking there must have been some crazy scores on his Beery visual spatial testing or something along those lines to lead her in this direction.

 

I could have written your post - I'm considering the exact same questions, so here's what's been going on with us so far.

 

We took our 15 yo for a neuropsych because one of our other kids is dx'd with CAPD and we noticed similar behaviors. The evaluator we went to was an autism specialist (purely by coincidence - member of a group practice who had an opening) and seemed to zero in on Aspergers as the likely diagnosis (mentioned lack of eye contact, walking strangely). I found that incredibly odd because he doesn't show symptoms of Aspergers in other situations. Possible explanation: In "The Mislabled Child", the authors mention that working memory overload can lead to poor eye contact (his working memory scores were quite low) and his atypical walking is due to a previously diagnosed orthopedic problem. He is absolutely not on the spectrum. None of the criteria fit. But see how fast that assumption was made?:)

 

He does have visual-spatial and motor problems, and in his case, the score discrepancy between verbal and non-verbal fits the NVLD profile. But in the Real World, he consistently tests higher on achievement tests in math concepts rather than in computation (seems opposite of the typical profile from what I've read). He's accelerated in math (although he skipped the subject entirely last year) and picks up new concepts almost immediately. Ditto science, and he also thinks very relationally, and is highly logical. No trouble with reading comprehension (difficulty with reading comprehension is a common weakness with NVLD, but he scores very high on achievement tests there, also). His achievement test scores are higher in the verbal than math (same results as the WISC). I have to wonder - realistically speaking, when both scores on a WISC are in the average or above average range, how does that translate into a "learning disability"?

 

Clearly, he has Impaired Visual-Spatial Perception, handwriting difficulties and problems with Executive Function (illustrated by the low working memory score), but I believe his performance in the Real World proves that they exist independently of the other pronounced cognitive weaknesses that comprise a diagnosis of NVLD. His Real World performance seems to belie the outcomes of the tests that were administered, which is somewhat odd, but it is what it is. :) If someone were to label those weak areas as a particular learning disability without connecting it to the wider disability of NVLD, that would make more sense.

 

As part of the diagnostic process, social difficulties (inability to hold normal conversations, read facial expressions, etc.) seem to be emphasized also. This is so off the mark in my son's case. Regarding what are considered "normal" social behaviors - what allowances are made for personality (ie a person who is by nature shy and reserved as he is)? Shy and reserved does not equal "anti-social". And should a 15 yo be considered socially inept because he doesn't have a girlfriend yet? Because he's religious and not sexually active? These are the types of psychological probes that would make many 15 yo's uncomfortable, yet they were part of the assessment process and were used as examples of social deficiency afterward. By this standard, anyone whose behavior is motivated by Christian morality in this area is automatically a social misfit needing therapy.

 

The evaluator seems to want to apply the NVLD label, even though it is far from a perfect fit (and implies attributes that he doesn't possess). Admittedly, I may be a bit cynical, but this seems like a convenient diagnosis to slap on person who has coordination problems and comes off as a bit "geeky" if the Aspergers label can't be made to fit. I take with a grain of salt the notion that the observations made over the course of a day by an evaluator who has had no previous contact or opportunity to observe the subject are more accurate than those of other people who observe the subject over a wider range of situations. And even if the WISC scores show a notable gap between the two main areas, if a child is able to perform academically at an average or above average level on achievement tests across the board which are widely administered to the general population of school kids, and functions at an average or above average level in other areas (maybe took longer to learn to ride a bike but rides well now, maybe had difficulty learning to tie shoes but now does not, functions socially within a self-selected peer group of people with similar interests, etc.), is the main criterion, a standard deviation in the WISC scores between verbal and non-verbal, a reliable indicator of an LD label with such wide-ranging symptoms? Not in all cases, clearly, or you and I wouldn't be wondering at the discrepancies between the label and our own kids' functioning. I don't object to labels, provided they are accurate, but if they miss the mark, what good are they? As KarenAnne says, this is a relatively new diagnosis. Maybe it needs more refinement?

 

If I were you, I would bring up my concerns with the doctor and communicate my reservations (or objections) to the diagnosis. If you're convinced it's not accurate, it probably isn't. Trust your own observations and instincts.

 

Good luck!

[Guest]

A lot of the writing on NLD, like that on Asperger's (especially writing in the 1980s and 1990s), smooths out differences between kids to make a typical profile. I've since read about a number of kids with NLD who turn out to be English majors in college or who, like Rhondalyn Whitney's son Zack in her book NLD, are able to make top grades in high school.

 

Re-reading your post: I forgot to mention that my dd, too, has incredible problems with spelling -- not so much as a separate subject, but incorporated into a larger writing task. She's had a lot of therapy and we continue to work on spelling and proofreading, but clearly this is going to be a lifelong challenge for her. Otherwise, her verbal skills are so high they are stunning. Anything that involves mind, hand, and eye working together becomes an issue, though, and this is true from music to science to writing. It must be so frustrating for these extremely, extremely bright kids to be stuck inside a body that won't work the way they want it to.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

my zach has asperger's but didn't have any of the language problems others have....he is a whiz at math and reading--was reading around age 4 if I remember right....he's 7 so it's kinda not the same thing you're posting about but I thought I'd chime in.....