8th grade.. what hills to die on...

[choirfarm]

I love my middle son dearly, but details are just not important to him and those lovely 13yo hormones are running through him. So how do you decide which hills to die on and which ones not to? For example, I did their first quarter grades. He has an A in science and a B in everything else. He's fine with that. But let us look at the reason for some of those B's:

 

In history, they have to do a timeline. It is in a notebook and the pages are done. Each week they have a sheet of pictures with dates that they cut out and paste onto the timeline. Normally there are 8 to 10 ( dates not sheets) a week. He doesn't do it. It is worth 10 percent of your grade. He thinks it is busywork/ stupid and doesn't help you learn anything. I gave him his TOG quarter exam and he made an 89. He missed 6 points on the timeline section. I could make it an issue and make him do it. But do I?? He already groans about every single subject. He says writing is totally stupid, but he does well at it.

 

I have died on the slow and steady math with Chalkdust. I was going to try him on TT, but he did one lesson and begged to go back to Dana Mosely. But he takes no notes when he watches the lectures... I do make him write neatly and write every step.. Though he still misses. But do you know one thing I noticed when we were working through problems he needed to correct with me. He read the problems aloud incorrectly about half the time...he reversed digits, said the sign wrong etc.. I told him he must now wear his glasses from now on when doing math. ( The eye doctor had told him he only needed to wear them now when reading long books. But I'm thinking maybe not.. He did have some mild tracking issues that we did therapy for, but it never, ever affected his reading. He reads as quickly as I do.

 

He just does his Spanish SOS Secondary on the computer, but doesn't take notes, or make flashcards. He hates Spanish and just does it because I make him.

 

I feel like I have to fight him on every single subject. He is happy with a B. He could easily make A's, but he doesn't care. He loves to learn about history and thought Animal Farm was fabulous, but doing questions are stupid.

 

Christine

[regentrude]

The first thing that came to my mind was: could you change his assignments? I can see how a student may think that many assignments are "stupid"- I have seen my share of busy work.

Do you need to follow a very narrowly outlined path of evaluation by quizzes, worksheets, tests? Could you come together and discuss what ways of demonstrating his knowledge he would prefer?

 

I am saying this because my son is a bit similar: he hates filling out worksheets, reading quizzes about content etc. He prefers to demonstrate his knowledge by preparing presentations, giving talks, writing reports. For him, doing longer term projects is more fun - and at the end it accomplishes the same thing: he learns the material. So you may try putting him more in charge instead of having a program that micromanages his learning.

 

I agree that it would be nice to have a motivated student who would strive for As, and I think it is good if parents show that they have this expectation. you can, however, only lead the horse to water so to speak. I have seen my share of college students who set their goals lower than the A and are happy with a B (and some with a C). You might just have to resign yourself to the fact that your son is a minimalist.

[Nan in Mass]

I usually give mine the option of doing something else if they can think of a better way of achieving the object of the lesson. The conversation would go something like this:

"It says that you have to cut out these figures and glue them on the timeline."

"I don't want to do that."

"Why?"

If I am lucky, I get an answer like "Because it takes forever to cut the figures out and it is useless." If I'm not lucky, I get something like, "Because it is stupid."

"This is supposed to help you to remember the timeline. Would you rather write a description of them or draw them?"

"No. I never remember the timeline anyway, no matter what we do. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to give up on the timeline and have me look up the people in the encyclopaedia?"

"Ok."

 

We do a lot of that sort of thing. We aren't grading, though, even in high school, and we tend not to have curriculums that say "Do this and then this and then this" so this might not be very useful advice.

 

-Nan

[Teachin'Mine]

Could it be that he's working below his level and he finds the work too easy and therefore boring? Some kids thrive on challenges - maybe he's one of them. :)

[swimmermom3]

I usually give mine the option of doing something else if they can think of a better way of achieving the object of the lesson. The conversation would go something like this:

"It says that you have to cut out these figures and glue them on the timeline."

"I don't want to do that."

"Why?"

If I am lucky, I get an answer like "Because it takes forever to cut the figures out and it is useless." If I'm not lucky, I get something like, "Because it is stupid."

"This is supposed to help you to remember the timeline. Would you rather write a description of them or draw them?"

"No. I never remember the timeline anyway, no matter what we do. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to give up on the timeline and have me look up the people in the encyclopaedia?"

"Ok."

 

We do a lot of that sort of thing. We aren't grading, though, even in high school, and we tend not to have curriculums that say "Do this and then this and then this" so this might not be very useful advice.

 

-Nan

 

The first thing that came to my mind was: could you change his assignments? I can see how a student may think that many assignments are "stupid"- I have seen my share of busy work.

Do you need to follow a very narrowly outlined path of evaluation by quizzes, worksheets, tests? Could you come together and discuss what ways of demonstrating his knowledge he would prefer?

 

I am saying this because my son is a bit similar: he hates filling out worksheets, reading quizzes about content etc. He prefers to demonstrate his knowledge by preparing presentations, giving talks, writing reports. For him, doing longer term projects is more fun - and at the end it accomplishes the same thing: he learns the material. So you may try putting him more in charge instead of having a program that micromanages his learning.

 

I agree that it would be nice to have a motivated student who would strive for As, and I think it is good if parents show that they have this expectation. you can, however, only lead the horse to water so to speak. I have seen my share of college students who set their goals lower than the A and are happy with a B (and some with a C). You might just have to resign yourself to the fact that your son is a minimalist.

 

Yes, to both Nan's and regentrude's suggestions. Nan's suggestions made my life with my youngest so much better. His attitude is similar to regentrude's son's attitude. Negotiation is the name of the game. Worksheets and study guides are despised. When Swimmer Dude protests an assignment, I explain to him the assignment's value or objective. If he can come up with an assignment that accomplishes the same goal, we will usually go with that because often what he picks is harder than the original plan. If I listen, we discuss, and I still hold to the original assignment, he knows it has to be done. If he argues, he loses the right to protest the next assignment. I give enough for him to know that when I stand firm I mean it. (Wish it were so in other areas.)

 

About the timeline. There have been numerous posts in the past about middle school boys, timelines, and the notebooks that SWB recommends for history. Many of the guys just do not want to do them. NicoleM. shared a clever idea where she prints out the timeline figures four to a page and makes note cards. The student fills in pertinent information on the back (or Mom can help). Then, they use the cards for review. The student could line them up in chronological order or place them according to region. Whatever. It becomes a game.

 

Just some thoughts. Good luck. Your situation can wear a person down.:grouphug:

[choirfarm]

Part of it is, he is the totally disorganized creative brain. He is so opposite from my oldest, who makes out his schedule and won't quit when I tell him he should because he hasn't accomplished what he planned.

 

Science. I think he got an A because he has to read it, do the module summary, talk it over with dad and then make a study sheet. Dad makes him.

 

Math- He is working up to his potential here. Math isn't his subject, though he says he is liking Algebra. He will not do anything math related. His mantra used to be I hate math. I pulled him out of ps and his test scores were in the 4o percentile range in math. I pulled them up to the 60th percentile range. He made in the 80's recently. So we are making progress.

 

History- It is Tapestry of Grace and no, the timelines are not essential. I give him the rhetoric questions and he has to make an effort on them. Believe me, they are not busy work. They are hard questions. He is doing rhetoric level.

 

English- Well, I thought the TOG literary analysis would be too deep, hence the Glencoe worksheets. I have to have SOMETHING to grade... He is reading the rhetoric selections.

 

SOS Spanish- I don't know Spanish. I don't know how else to teach this. I plan to have him go through SOS Spanish Ii and then take it at the CC. I don't know how to fix that one.

 

I don't think it is below his ability. I guess I could ask him how he would like me to assess him? But I tell you, it would be "I dunno. I don't care." I am offering to take him out to eat the two of us and can't get him to decide where he wants to go!!

 

Christine

[elegantlion]

I usually give mine the option of doing something else if they can think of a better way of achieving the object of the lesson. The conversation would go something like this:

"It says that you have to cut out these figures and glue them on the timeline."

"I don't want to do that."

"Why?"

If I am lucky, I get an answer like "Because it takes forever to cut the figures out and it is useless." If I'm not lucky, I get something like, "Because it is stupid."

"This is supposed to help you to remember the timeline. Would you rather write a description of them or draw them?"

"No. I never remember the timeline anyway, no matter what we do. Wouldn't it make more sense for me to give up on the timeline and have me look up the people in the encyclopaedia?"

"Ok."

 

We do a lot of that sort of thing. We aren't grading, though, even in high school, and we tend not to have curriculums that say "Do this and then this and then this" so this might not be very useful advice.

 

-Nan

 

Yes, my ds thinks timelines are stupid. He is not a cut and paste kind of guy. Since we are working on solidifying other skills I bought a timeline in a book form for ancients/bible era. I also have the DK Visual History book which has a timeline.

 

Any of our attempts at making timelines simply turned into busywork for him. :glare:

 

 

About the timeline. There have been numerous posts in the past about middle school boys, timelines, and the notebooks that SWB recommends for history. Many of the guys just do not want to do them. NicoleM. shared a clever idea where she prints out the timeline figures four to a page and makes note cards. The student fills in pertinent information on the back (or Mom can help). Then, they use the cards for review. The student could line them up in chronological order or place them according to region. Whatever. It becomes a game.

 

Just some thoughts. Good luck. Your situation can wear a person down.:grouphug:

 

Thanks, we may try this at the high school level.

 

Here's some of things we are working on solidifying this year. Most of them have to do with organization and study habits, not grades. These are going to be my hills this year.

 

Organizational skills must be an acceptable level.

How to use a weekly assignment sheet

How to plan, implement, and complete a project within a time frame

How to ask questions when anything is unclear

_ Reading on a consistent basis without having to be reminded

_ How to complete lessons independently when required

_ Completion of all assigned subjects for this year.

_ Advancement in effort and ability of writing including:

How to outline from a text

How to write a paragraph from a text

How to write a narrative from a reading

_ How to engage in a discussion on an assignment and voice your perspective on the topic.

_ How to summarize what you have read on your own

_ How to give an oral presentation (topics and audience to be decided)

_ Effective time management during school hours

_ Advancement in typing abilities

_ Ability to format papers correctly

_ Ability to show math work when required

_ Beginning ability in note taking from a lecture (live and DVD). Understand what is important to note and why.

_ Display an elevated maturity in effort regarding your studies

_ How to use reference materials for research

[choirfarm]

 

Here's some of things we are working on solidifying this year. Most of them have to do with organization and study habits, not grades. These are going to be my hills this year.

 

Organizational skills must be an acceptable level.

How to use a weekly assignment sheet

How to plan, implement, and complete a project within a time frame

How to ask questions when anything is unclear

_ Reading on a consistent basis without having to be reminded

_ How to complete lessons independently when required

_ Completion of all assigned subjects for this year.

 

_

 

 

Yep, this is my hill this year. I have a weekly sheet. Last week I forgot to check with him daily. Hence, one day was filled out. I have to check with him twice a day, saying " Ok, let us look at your sheet. Oh, you haven't done anything?? Oh..well, let us write down that you read Life in the 1920's and did ch 1-4 of Animal Farm. What should you do? No, not reading Agatha Christie. Hand me the book, please..."

 

Later in the day, "Let me see your planner so I can see what you have done today." He hurriedly runs to write it down..

 

GGRRR. I keep telling him he will know exactly what to do if he would just WRITE IT DOWN. Then he won't say...oh, I forgot about that. If you haven't filled out Spanish in your planner, then you haven't done it!!! That would also help him becuase he tends to do what he likes: he read Animal Farm in 2 days because it wsa wonderful.. He reads all of his history by Tuesday ( and believe me, TOG rhetoric is hefty reading!!)

 

GRRR

 

Christine

[Nan in Mass]

Two of my older ones are in college now, and the youngest is taking CC classes. I can't remember if any of yours are in college yet, but in case not, I would like to tell you that your list is a very worthy hill. I'm a little fuzzy on how the dieing hill analogy works, but at the risk of mangling it, I would say that once your student gets to college, that hill will be a mountain he will die climbing if he hasn't learned how to climb well.

-Nan

[Leanna Tomlinson]

History- It is Tapestry of Grace and no, the timelines are not essential. I give him the rhetoric questions and he has to make an effort on them. Believe me, they are not busy work. They are hard questions. He is doing rhetoric level.

 

English- Well, I thought the TOG literary analysis would be too deep, hence the Glencoe worksheets. I have to have SOMETHING to grade... He is reading the rhetoric selections.

 

 

 

Here are a couple of suggestions related to TOG. I made some of these changes based on several teen boys and their responses to the TOG work. I allow the students to just take notes on the information in relation to the AQ & TQ questions rather than writing out long grammatically correct answers (if there is a chart, they still have to fill it out). Anyone who does not satisfactorily participate in the discussion is required to hand in complete answers the next week. Twice a quarter I pull a Thinking Question and require a well thought out essay. Because they write these two essays, I don't require the essay question on the unit exam.

 

English - I think it would be valid to have him read the work and write a one page response or just have a discussion. You could maybe have one quiz per unit on literary terms if you want to. You could base the bulk of his English grade on writing assignments. This year my 8th graders are writing approximately 1 essay every three weeks and revising each one as we learn new writing techniques.