Confused about writing....(yet another IEW post)

[prairie rose]

My plan was for my kids to use the Imitation in Writing books that I already have (we have all of them) and then switch to IEW in the spring when I have the money to purchase it. We started Imitation in Writing and my 12yo, who has always been a writer, loves it. He always chooses the route of only keeping the bones of the story (like for the Aesop fables make the story show the same moral) but changes everything else about it. My 9 and 10yo really really struggled with it so I put them in WWE 2 and they are doing much better with that than Imitation in Writing. Both have handwriting issues so it's a good starting place for them.

 

Anyways, I was searching these boards for any ideas or helps with transitioning from Imitation In Writing to IEW and I came across several posts that claimed these types of programs encourage students to plagiarize. :001_huh: Now I'm confused. To me, plagiarizing is copying word for word and passing it as your own or paraphrasing without giving citation. But I'm not sure I want to teach my kids to write with a program that others see as a form of plagiarism. I realize that no program is going to be right for everyone and no matter what I choose to use, there will always be someone who doesn't like it, but I just don't know what to believe on this one. I mean Ben Franklin, Jack London and many others learned to write this way so it can't only produce writers who plagiarize...right? Or do the people that believe learning to write this way produces plagiarists believe that all these famous people and respected authors are plagiarists as well? Or are they just gifted writers to begin with and would have learned to write beautifully no matter what method was used?

 

Just need a sounding board on this one I think. ;)

[AngieW in Texas]

I think IEW is a great program. It worked very well for my two older girls.

 

It does not teach or encourage plagiarism.

 

In the very beginning levels, it has students do a key word outline sentence-by-sentence, so the writing that is produced does sound very much like the original. It moves on from that though.

 

It later teaches how to "take notes from your brain" and take notes from a source. It teaches how to cite your sources as well.

 

It doesn't, unfortunately, work for my youngest because it is too structured for her.

[Julie of KY]

IEW does not teach plagerism. It does teach taking notes from a source. It encourages you to cite references if you are unsure and encourages the teacher to teach what plagerism is and isn't.

[1Togo]

I agree with Julie and Angie. IEW does not teach the student to plagiarize. Like other classical writing curriculum, IEW begins with rewriting a source. Though IEW uses a different form of outlining, this is similar to SWB's suggestions for writing. SWB has other suggestions, but she also wants the student to learn to outline and and then write from that outline. Later, as the student matures, they learn proper documentation.

[8filltheheart]

My plan was for my kids to use the Imitation in Writing books that I already have (we have all of them) and then switch to IEW in the spring when I have the money to purchase it. We started Imitation in Writing and my 12yo, who has always been a writer, loves it. He always chooses the route of only keeping the bones of the story (like for the Aesop fables make the story show the same moral) but changes everything else about it. My 9 and 10yo really really struggled with it so I put them in WWE 2 and they are doing much better with that than Imitation in Writing. Both have handwriting issues so it's a good starting place for them.

 

Anyways, I was searching these boards for any ideas or helps with transitioning from Imitation In Writing to IEW and I came across several posts that claimed these types of programs encourage students to plagiarize. :001_huh: Now I'm confused. To me, plagiarizing is copying word for word and passing it as your own or paraphrasing without giving citation. But I'm not sure I want to teach my kids to write with a program that others see as a form of plagiarism. I realize that no program is going to be right for everyone and no matter what I choose to use, there will always be someone who doesn't like it, but I just don't know what to believe on this one. I mean Ben Franklin, Jack London and many others learned to write this way so it can't only produce writers who plagiarize...right? Or do the people that believe learning to write this way produces plagiarists believe that all these famous people and respected authors are plagiarists as well? Or are they just gifted writers to begin with and would have learned to write beautifully no matter what method was used?

 

Just need a sounding board on this one I think. ;)

 

I am one who thinks it does encourage plagiarism. The assignment that you describe your 12 yo as doing is plagiarism. Plagiarism extends beyond copying word for word; it includes the idea which is considered intellectual property. ( http://www.plagiarism.org/)

 

While citing sources means you aren't plagiarizing, you can't "cite" an entire paper. The thesis needs to be original and cannot be cited. This is where students that have relied on key word outlining beyond learning basic writing fundamentals can struggle. The line can blur between what is note-taking and what is "intellectual property."

 

I owned IEW SWIs through level C. I never saw original thesis argumentation presented. I have never seen any of the other products, so whether or not the art of independent argument is taught, I have no idea. I do know that when I taught a literature course that the kids that had been taught via IEW did continuously plagiarize b/c they thought it was ok as long as they re-worded the ideas into their own words. But, it just ain't so.

[brownie]

1) Fables have been told and retold hundreds of times in different forms and republished. So especially when you are using an old story that has been passed down orally (at least initially), it makes a lot of sense to allow a child to retell it. Besides, after chapter two you are summarizing, as for a book report, not using key word outlines. Call it a book report instead of a re-write and you can avoid the 'retelling' if it bothers you.

 

2) I always had trouble writing a report in my own words as a kid. IEW teaches you how to do it...write an outline, go away for a couple of days, and come back to it to re-write the ideas in complete sentences.

 

I am using it for my 4th grader. We love the program. However, I do not intend to graduate him from HS on IEW either. It is a starting point.

[8filltheheart]

1) Fables have been told and retold hundreds of times in different forms and republished. So especially when you are using an old story that has been passed down orally (at least initially), it makes a lot of sense to allow a child to retell it. Besides, after chapter two you are summarizing, as for a book report, not using key word outlines. Call it a book report instead of a re-write and you can avoid the 'retelling' if it bothers you.

 

2) I always had trouble writing a report in my own words as a kid. IEW teaches you how to do it...write an outline, go away for a couple of days, and come back to it to re-write the ideas in complete sentences.

 

I am using it for my 4th grader. We love the program. However, I do not intend to graduate him from HS on IEW either. It is a starting point.

 

I think that "re-writes" are appropriate for young elementary age children. I do not think it is a appropriate writing instruction for middle school (and definitely not for high school)

 

It is actually pt #2 that is the issue. Going away and coming back and re-writing in your own words is still plagiarism. That is the key problem. For little kids, no big deal; they are simply learning how to construct legible writing. But as they get older, the thesis (the idea/argument/position......whatever you want to call it) has to be original or it is plagiarism. They can not simply write it in their own words. If the position is someone else's, then they are not writing on a mature enough level.

 

It is that leap where I think IEW fails.

[brownie]

I don't recall formulating a thesis in English class until High School. Maybe it was a year or 2 sooner, but I don't think so. We weren't analyzing literature yet. And certainly a report on Mars, volcanos, etc...does not require a thesis. Even doing a science project requires you to provide background information which involves summarizing source information accurately. I'm not saying it is appropriate to avoid teaching this in a high school curriculum and I've never used IEW for High School so I don't know what it does at that level. But I expect to have exhausted what the curriculum has to offer by the start of 7th grade anyhow.

 

Brownie

[8filltheheart]

I don't recall formulating a thesis in English class until High School. Maybe it was a year or 2 sooner, but I don't think so. We weren't analyzing literature yet. And certainly a report on Mars, volcanos, etc...does not require a thesis. Even doing a science project requires you to provide background information which involves summarizing source information accurately. I'm not saying it is appropriate to avoid teaching this in a high school curriculum and I've never used IEW for High School so I don't know what it does at that level. But I expect to have exhausted what the curriculum has to offer by the start of 7th grade anyhow.

 

Brownie

 

Perhaps it would help to note what I wrote in my OP. IEW SWI C is marketed as high school level. The OP has a 12 yo who I am assuming is in 6th/7th grade and is looking to transition to something beyond imitation/summarization writing.

Edited October 11, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jan in SC]

Perhaps it would help to note what I wrote in my OP. IEW SWI C is marketed as high school level. The OP has a 12 yo who I am assuming is in 6th/7th grade and is looking to transition to something beyond imitation/summarization writing.

 

What program do you recommend? My ds is thriving in a co-op using IEW. He is in fourth grade.

[prairie rose]

I am one who thinks it does encourage plagiarism. The assignment that you describe your 12 yo as doing is plagiarism. Plagiarism extends beyond copying word for word; it includes the idea which is considered intellectual property. ( http://www.plagiarism.org/)

 

Just trying to understand your point of view better so I can form my own opinion. :001_smile:

 

So, in your opinion, anyone who writes a story that illustrates the same moral as one of Aesop's fables is plagiarizing? So how does one write a biographical research paper without plagiarizing? If I have to research a person I know nothing about and write a biographical paper to include his or her pertinent information (DOB, DOD, place of birth, family life, accomplishments etc.), wouldn't my whole paper be a re-write of the encyclopedia? Of course it would be cited as my source but it seems to me that you are saying this would still be plagiarism. How would one avoid this? I can't really add my own ideas to this assignment without changing the assignment. I guess I could create a thesis statement along the lines of "This person changed the course of history because of (insert accomplishment here)" I could somehow include the biographical information here and there but now my paper is an opinion paper (my opinion of how this person changed history) not a biography which was the assignment.

 

While citing sources means you aren't plagiarizing, you can't "cite" an entire paper. The thesis needs to be original and cannot be cited. This is where students that have relied on key word outlining beyond learning basic writing fundamentals can struggle. The line can blur between what is note-taking and what is "intellectual property."

 

For this assignment, he was not asked to formulate a thesis (something I was never asked to do until high school, should I be asking him to write thesis papers?), he was asked to re-write the the story in his own words. To me, there is little difference between this and narrating. So are all his written narrations plagiarized too? When he typed up his final copy, he put the words "an adaptation of "The Ants and The Grasshopper" by Aesop" below his title. I did not tell him to do this, he came up with this on his own so I am confident that he does see the difference between his own original writing and something like the assignment he was given.

 

So if not IEW (which was recommended to me over and over again but the price tag always stopped me) then what? Until I was researching on these boards I was confident I could teach them to formulate thesis statements and reports even if IEW didn't teach it to my liking but now it seems that no matter what, I'm plagiarizing someone. :001_huh:

 

Perhaps it would help to note what I wrote in my OP. IEW SWI C is marketed as high school level. The OP has a 12 yo who I am assuming is in 6th/7th grade and is looking to transition to something beyond imitation/summarization writing.

 

Actually, I am looking for something that teaches him to summarize. He's great at writing his own ideas and his own stories but he struggles a bit with summarizing and narrating without adding what's not there or getting all the ideas from a selection. Imitation in Writing is working well for that, he's doing much better with simply summarizing and narrating but it seems to me, from 8fillstheheart and the website linked that this would be plagiarism. I'm wondering now how does one write a summary and not plagiarize if you can't simply narrate your source and cite it? What program out there teaches how to summarize with plagiarizing? Maybe I was taught incorrectly, but when I wrote thesis papers in high school and college, you did your research and note taking (outlines of main ideas in your sources), formulated a thesis (which is entirely your own idea based in your research) organized your paper to support your thesis, wrote your body paragraphs (most of which were summaries of your research , properly cited, and a few direct quotes when appropriate, also properly cited) then wrote your introductory and closing paragraphs. I always received high marks and was never accused of plagiarism. Maybe I was just lucky? Or has the definition of plagiarism changed in the time since I last had to write a formal essay (about 10 years ago)?

 

Just trying to understand so I can make a better informed decision. :001_smile:

[8filltheheart]

Just trying to understand your point of view better so I can form my own opinion. :001_smile:

 

So, in your opinion, anyone who writes a story that illustrates the same moral as one of Aesop's fables is plagiarizing? So how does one write a biographical research paper without plagiarizing? If I have to research a person I know nothing about and write a biographical paper to include his or her pertinent information (DOB, DOD, place of birth, family life, accomplishments etc.), wouldn't my whole paper be a re-write of the encyclopedia? Of course it would be cited as my source but it seems to me that you are saying this would still be plagiarism. How would one avoid this? I can't really add my own ideas to this assignment without changing the assignment. I guess I could create a thesis statement along the lines of "This person changed the course of history because of (insert accomplishment here)" I could somehow include the biographical information here and there but now my paper is an opinion paper (my opinion of how this person changed history) not a biography which was the assignment.

 

 

 

For this assignment, he was not asked to formulate a thesis (something I was never asked to do until high school, should I be asking him to write thesis papers?), he was asked to re-write the the story in his own words. To me, there is little difference between this and narrating. So are all his written narrations plagiarized too? When he typed up his final copy, he put the words "an adaptation of "The Ants and The Grasshopper" by Aesop" below his title. I did not tell him to do this, he came up with this on his own so I am confident that he does see the difference between his own original writing and something like the assignment he was given.

 

So if not IEW (which was recommended to me over and over again but the price tag always stopped me) then what? Until I was researching on these boards I was confident I could teach them to formulate thesis statements and reports even if IEW didn't teach it to my liking but now it seems that no matter what, I'm plagiarizing someone. :001_huh:

 

 

 

Actually, I am looking for something that teaches him to summarize. He's great at writing his own ideas and his own stories but he struggles a bit with summarizing and narrating without adding what's not there or getting all the ideas from a selection. Imitation in Writing is working well for that, he's doing much better with simply summarizing and narrating but it seems to me, from 8fillstheheart and the website linked that this would be plagiarism. I'm wondering now how does one write a summary and not plagiarize if you can't simply narrate your source and cite it? What program out there teaches how to summarize with plagiarizing? Maybe I was taught incorrectly, but when I wrote thesis papers in high school and college, you did your research and note taking (outlines of main ideas in your sources), formulated a thesis (which is entirely your own idea based in your research) organized your paper to support your thesis, wrote your body paragraphs (most of which were summaries of your research , properly cited, and a few direct quotes when appropriate, also properly cited) then wrote your introductory and closing paragraphs. I always received high marks and was never accused of plagiarism. Maybe I was just lucky? Or has the definition of plagiarism changed in the time since I last had to write a formal essay (about 10 years ago)?

 

Just trying to understand so I can make a better informed decision. :001_smile:

 

I think that the we are discussing 2 separate issues. Narrations and summarizations are not what I would classify as "writing assignments" for older kids. Younger kids, yes. Tools for organizing info that older kids are learning, yes. But, I do not consider outlining/summarizing a reading assignment as a writing assignment for middle or high school age kids. It is simply something they do to help them process subject matter content. Writing an essay, etc. is a different technique entirely.

 

FWIW, I do believe that what is expected from writing has changed since I was in school. I remember writing research papers that were more factual "report" writing. That is not the case now. Research paper means proving a position, not just reporting facts. (If you read the link I included, it clarifies that commonly held knowledge does not require citation. However, older kids' writing shouldn't be just about commonly held knowledge.)

 

I have never given an older child a "factual report" assignment. In our homeschool, that is an elementary/early middle school "learning to write in an organized manner" type tool. Higher grade level expectations are to compare/contrast, persuade, cause/effect type analysis.

 

If you have a child that cannot organize his thoughts well, then IEW would be an excellent starting point for learning how to construct writing in general. However, if a child already knows writing fundamentals, then learning how to write critically is the next step in the process. That is when unique ideas need to be formulated and the evidence used to support that position is cited.

 

Also....I did not mean to suggest that your child deliberately plagiarizing. I was writing lesson plans last night and replied in a hurry. However, that "style" of writing will be considered plagiarism as he gets older b/c it is stealing someone else's intellectual property and simply re-writing in your own words. (Aesops are not copyrighted b/c of their age, but that is really irrelevant :tongue_smilie: b/c most writing encountered by students as they get older is non-fiction. ) It is why the "walking away from it" and coming back later to put it in your own words philosophy is flawed. The intellectual argument needs to be owned by the student. Therefore, only the supporting evidence is someone else's info.

 

HTH

Edited October 11, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[dani3boys]

I think that the we are discussing 2 separate issues. Narrations and summarizations are not what I would classify as "writing assignments" for older kids. Younger kids, yes. Tools for organizing info that older kids are learning, yes. But, I do not consider outlining/summarizing a reading assignment as a writing assignment for middle or high school age kids. It is simply something they do to help them process subject matter content. Writing an essay, etc. is a different technique entirely.

 

FWIW, I do believe that what is expected from writing has changed since I was in school. I remember writing research papers that were more factual "report" writing. That is not the case now. Research paper means proving a position, not just reporting facts. (If you read the link I included, it clarifies that commonly held knowledge does not require citation. However, older kids' writing shouldn't be just about commonly held knowledge.)

 

I have never given an older child a "factual report" assignment. In our homeschool, that is an elementary/early middle school "learning to write in an organized manner" type tool. Higher grade level expectations are to compare/contrast, persuade, cause/effect type analysis.

 

If you have a child that cannot organize his thoughts well, then IEW would be an excellent starting point for learning how to construct writing in general. However, if a child already knows writing fundamentals, then learning how to write critically is the next step in the process. That is when unique ideas need to be formulated and the evidence used to support that position is cited.

 

Also....I did not mean to suggest that your child deliberately plagiarizing. I was writing lesson plans last night and replied in a hurry. However, that "style" of writing will be considered plagiarism as he gets older b/c it is stealing someone else's intellectual property and simply re-writing in your own words. (Aesops are not copyrighted b/c of their age, but that is really irrelevant :tongue_smilie: b/c most writing encountered by students as they get older is non-fiction. ) It is why the "walking away from it" and coming back later to put it in your own words philosophy is flawed. The intellectual argument needs to be owned by the student. Therefore, only the supporting evidence is someone else's info.

 

HTH

 

Which writing program do you recommend? We are currently using IEW, but I haven't decided yet if it will be enough for us through high school. I have an 8th grader right now, and would like to know where we're going in the high school years.:tongue_smilie:

[angela in ohio]

You will never be able to use a program that no one else dislikes. Someone will always think another way is better. I don't like to have one "pet program" or method (other than classical education:D,) because different programs work for different people with different children at different times. I have seen IEW work wonders for some writers, so I defend it when I see false statements about it. It is not the only program that will adequately teach writing, though, so you could choose something else and do just fine.

 

Once again, many people get stuck on IEWs first two units. Those are preliminary exercises. A 10 and 12 yo would quickly move beyond those (in a matter of weeks at most.) After that, students are creating original works, sometimes in creative writing (Units 5 and 7,) sometimes in research from multiple sources (Unit 6,) and ultimately in forming their own thesis and supporting it (Units 8 and 9.) Any child in middle school should get to Units 7-9 quickly and then build from there. For example, last year I covered the entire syllabus with a group of 11-13 yos in 15 weeks, and then we spent the rest of the year building from units 8 and 9.

 

It is not fair to compare the early units only of IEW to other programs. I wouldn't say that Singapore math doesn't teach as much as Horizons while comparing Singpore 1A to Horizons grades 1-6.

 

The first two units of IEW are very similar to the classical methods of narration and copywork. Those are appropriate exercises for younger students, but they are also necessary briefly for older students just starting out (listen to SWB's writing talks for back-up on that point.)

[8filltheheart]

Once again, many people get stuck on IEWs first two units. Those are preliminary exercises. A 10 and 12 yo would quickly move beyond those (in a matter of weeks at most.) After that, students are creating original works, sometimes in creative writing (Units 5 and 7,) sometimes in research from multiple sources (Unit 6,) and ultimately in forming their own thesis and supporting it (Units 8 and 9.) Any child in middle school should get to Units 7-9 quickly and then build from there. For example, last year I covered the entire syllabus with a group of 11-13 yos in 15 weeks, and then we spent the rest of the year building from units 8 and 9.

 

 

 

Based on this, I am wondering if you are discussing the SWIs (vs another product) or if they have been drastically modified since I owned mine. The SWIs I owned (levels A and C) each had the same number of days worth of activities and I think level C started off with something about a musician or something like that (for some reason the letter M is coming to mind. I sold mine so I can't look.)

 

Unless they have been re-vamped, I never saw anything beyond an essay being taught and the subject of original thesis and argument were not well-developed.

 

However, since I bought my versions probably 6 or 7 yrs ago, perhaps they have changed.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Which writing program do you recommend? We are currently using IEW, but I haven't decided yet if it will be enough for us through high school. I have an 8th grader right now, and would like to know where we're going in the high school years.:tongue_smilie:

 

:lurk5: Also what have used for all grade levels?

[8filltheheart]

Which writing program do you recommend? We are currently using IEW, but I haven't decided yet if it will be enough for us through high school. I have an 8th grader right now, and would like to know where we're going in the high school years.:tongue_smilie:

 

Unfortunately, I can't really. The best suggestion I have is to educate yourself on what is appropriate writing and then simply teach. There is another thread right now where someone (I think her name is Jann or Jenn :confused:) says essentially the same thing and she is correct.

 

Writing is a completely subjective subject. It is hard to make it fit in pre-defined lessons in the sense that there is a one-size fits all answer. Knowing how to write and evaluate writing makes teaching writing naturally conform to your child's abilities.

 

You could purchase several writing resources and self-educate for your children's entire school progression for much less than 1 yr of IEW.

 

FWIW.....I think writing needs to be taught. I think it needs to meet the child where they are. I also firmly believe that it isn't that difficult to learn how to teach it. Until this yr I had never found a writing program that I thought was outstanding in its own right w/o major modifications. (hence, no recommendations. I have some that are ok in parts, but not in whole) I am currently using MCT Essay Voyage with my 6th grader and I do really love it. However, it fits my teaching style exactly and really has just been an extension of what we were already doing except now I don't have to go digging around for source works. I don't know if others jumping into it would find it an equally natural place. That is why teaching yourself first is probably the best course of action.

[lamamaloca]

Based on this, I am wondering if you are discussing the SWIs (vs another product) or if they have been drastically modified since I owned mine.

 

The core IEW product in my understanding is the set of DVDs called Teach Writing Structure and Style, which is aimed at teacher education and is designed to "teach the teacher" who then designs lesson plans for the student. The SWI are designed as teacher helps, but I don't believe they are the core of the program.

[silliness7]

Based on this, I am wondering if you are discussing the SWIs (vs another product) or if they have been drastically modified since I owned mine. The SWIs I owned (levels A and C) each had the same number of days worth of activities and I think level C started off with something about a musician or something like that (for some reason the letter M is coming to mind. I sold mine so I can't look.)

 

Unless they have been re-vamped, I never saw anything beyond an essay being taught and the subject of original thesis and argument were not well-developed.

 

However, since I bought my versions probably 6 or 7 yrs ago, perhaps they have changed.

 

If you are basing your entire opinion of IEW on the SWI then I don't think you have enough information about the program as a whole to be making the kind of blanket statements that you are making. SWI stands for Student Writing Intensive. It is a 3 or 4 day crash course in getting started with IEW. There are lesson plans in which you can stretch the information out over several weeks. Even so, this 3-day course cannot stretch out to a full year of IEW, even at level C and I don't think the use of it would constitute having a well-rounded knowledge of the IEW technique and the end result.

 

After watching the TWSS vidoes I used SWI-B and a theme-based book. This year I am using the TWSS manual exclusively and making my own assignments. We have not done thesis papers yet so I can't speak to the plagiarism issue concerning those types of papers and I think others have more than defended it against non-thesis type papers.

 

I have the Elegant Essay but will probably wait til next year (9th grade) to use it. Perhaps this issue will be addressed in that course. I am satisfied with our writing thus far. I respect the integrity of Mr. Pudewa and certainly wouldn't consider ditching the program based on the accusations in this thread.

[silliness7]

Unfortunately, I can't really. The best suggestion I have is to educate yourself on what is appropriate writing and then simply teach. There is another thread right now where someone (I think her name is Jann or Jenn :confused:) says essentially the same thing and she is correct.

 

Writing is a completely subjective subject. It is hard to make it fit in pre-defined lessons in the sense that there is a one-size fits all answer. Knowing how to write and evaluate writing makes teaching writing naturally conform to your child's abilities.

 

You could purchase several writing resources and self-educate for your children's entire school progression for much less than 1 yr of IEW.

 

FWIW.....I think writing needs to be taught. I think it needs to meet the child where they are. I also firmly believe that it isn't that difficult to learn how to teach it. Until this yr I had never found a writing program that I thought was outstanding in its own right w/o major modifications. (hence, no recommendations. I have some that are ok in parts, but not in whole) I am currently using MCT Essay Voyage with my 6th grader and I do really love it. However, it fits my teaching style exactly and really has just been an extension of what we were already doing except now I don't have to go digging around for source works. I don't know if others jumping into it would find it an equally natural place. That is why teaching yourself first is probably the best course of action.

 

I'm sorry, I feel like I'm picking on one poster unduly. But the bolded portions above show, again, that this poster is not familiar enough with IEW to be a good resource when looking for possible flaws and criticisms.

 

IEW was originally meant to be and still can be a ONE TIME PURCHASE. The TWSS is a TEACHER TRAINING seminar which helps you, the parent, be a writing teacher to your child. There are enough helps in the TWSS and even more in the files at the yahoo group to use this exclusively for as long as you would like with nothing more to purchase ever. After fiddling around with some of the teacher "helps" I have decided that the TWSS will work best for our homeschool as it gives the utmost flexibility in coordinating our writing assignments with our other subjects.

 

However, the other products were developed over the course of time for moms who felt they needed more hand-holding or what have you. And sometimes because they exist, the consumer in us can think that we MUST have it. The TWSS is enough. (although I am going to try the Elegant Essay in highschool...I think it was $30) Anyway, if it works for you then you've gotten a real bargain. If it doesn't work for you, you can return it to IEW for a full refund, regardless of it's condition. (I believe you have to have purchased it from them) It also has a very high resale value if you pick one up used. I would encourage anyone thinking about it to take the plunge. I'm happy I did.

[dani3boys]

Unfortunately, I can't really. The best suggestion I have is to educate yourself on what is appropriate writing and then simply teach. There is another thread right now where someone (I think her name is Jann or Jenn :confused:) says essentially the same thing and she is correct.

 

Writing is a completely subjective subject. It is hard to make it fit in pre-defined lessons in the sense that there is a one-size fits all answer. Knowing how to write and evaluate writing makes teaching writing naturally conform to your child's abilities.

 

You could purchase several writing resources and self-educate for your children's entire school progression for much less than 1 yr of IEW.

 

FWIW.....I think writing needs to be taught. I think it needs to meet the child where they are. I also firmly believe that it isn't that difficult to learn how to teach it. Until this yr I had never found a writing program that I thought was outstanding in its own right w/o major modifications. (hence, no recommendations. I have some that are ok in parts, but not in whole) I am currently using MCT Essay Voyage with my 6th grader and I do really love it. However, it fits my teaching style exactly and really has just been an extension of what we were already doing except now I don't have to go digging around for source works. I don't know if others jumping into it would find it an equally natural place. That is why teaching yourself first is probably the best course of action.

 

Thanks for answering. We are currently in unit 6, so I don't know what is beyond that. I think I will use my TWSS DVDs to educate myself and then from there decide if I need to change or add anything.

[Twigs]

Thanks for all who are participating in this discussion.

 

I was never taught much about writing in public school or univeristy and still struggle with it. I'm planning on using IEW or a course like it in the future for my self-education. This discussion is helping me be more informed about the various issues involved in learning to write.

[8filltheheart]

If you are basing your entire opinion of IEW on the SWI then I don't think you have enough information about the program as a whole to be making the kind of blanket statements that you are making. SWI stands for Student Writing Intensive. It is a 3 or 4 day crash course in getting started with IEW. There are lesson plans in which you can stretch the information out over several weeks. Even so, this 3-day course cannot stretch out to a full year of IEW, even at level C and I don't think the use of it would constitute having a well-rounded knowledge of the IEW technique and the end result.

 

After watching the TWSS vidoes I used SWI-B and a theme-based book. This year I am using the TWSS manual exclusively and making my own assignments. We have not done thesis papers yet so I can't speak to the plagiarism issue concerning those types of papers and I think others have more than defended it against non-thesis type papers.

 

I have the Elegant Essay but will probably wait til next year (9th grade) to use it. Perhaps this issue will be addressed in that course. I am satisfied with our writing thus far. I respect the integrity of Mr. Pudewa and certainly wouldn't consider ditching the program based on the accusations in this thread.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying exactly since I was only ever addressing thesis type papers in regards to plagiarism.

 

I would also never blanket-recommended ditching IEW nor was I making accusations; I simply shared my perspective. I think IEW is a good choice for helping kids understand how to form structure (which I did state in one of my posts within this very thread ..... (copying and pasting that comment here. If you have a child that cannot organize his thoughts well, then IEW would be an excellent starting point for learning how to construct writing in general). I personally do not like Pudewa's approach to essay writing b/c I see it as formulaic. That is beyond the issue of plagiarism which is completely separate and the only topic I was addressing.

 

My experience with what I have seen (owning SWI's and watching parts of TWSS (though I don't remember my friend having accompanying teacher's materials with the TWSS videos---just instructional videos) and reading high school papers written by students who had been taught exclusively via IEW,--these students did not make the leap to understanding the art of argument vs. relying on someone else's work. Learning that ideas are owned is a difficult concept for students. When they have learned via imitative writing and altering story lines as older students vs. the same approach used exclusively in primary and early elementary grades, changing wording can seem like it is taking ownership of an idea. I have had a student argue that they synthesized several different articles to create their paper. It was still plagiarism b/c it did not contain original work.

 

Irregardless, I am just one person posting an alternative view pt to what everyone else posted. Plenty of people posted that they didn't believe that it did. :chillpill: It is simply my opinion. Didn't know only blanket endorsement posts were allowed.:tongue_smilie:

Edited October 11, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[angela in ohio]

My experience with what I have seen (owning SWI's and watching parts of TWSS (though I don't remember my friend having accompanying teacher's materials with the TWSS videos---just instructional videos) and reading high school papers written by students who had been taught exclusively via IEW,--these students did not make the leap to understanding the art of argument vs. relying on someone else's work.

 

That is failure on the part of the teacher. High school students should go beyond Unit 6.

 

Honestly, unless you've watched all of the TWSS, it is hard to say what it does and doesn't contain.

[angela in ohio]

Based on this, I am wondering if you are discussing the SWIs (vs another product) or if they have been drastically modified since I owned mine. The SWIs I owned (levels A and C) each had the same number of days worth of activities and I think level C started off with something about a musician or something like that (for some reason the letter M is coming to mind. I sold mine so I can't look.)

 

Unless they have been re-vamped, I never saw anything beyond an essay being taught and the subject of original thesis and argument were not well-developed.

 

However, since I bought my versions probably 6 or 7 yrs ago, perhaps they have changed.

 

No, I'm talking about the IEW program - the TWSS. The SWI and SICC are extra helps for teachers who feel they need some assistance in implementing the program, which is contained in the TWSS.

 

Others have already explained this well, so I'll leave it at this:

 

IEW is a set of DVDs that teach a parent to teach their child to write. Everything else that IEW sells is extra helps for parent teachers. None of them contains the full program.

Edited October 11, 2010 by angela in ohio