Rupert Murdoch on US public schools

[pdalley]

When I had my own tutoring business in Oregon, it must have been a very common message. I had client after client come to me with their 5th grade child. They would tell me "Johnny or Jane has been having trouble since 1st grade. I've wanted to get them help but the teachers kept telling me that they had it covered and to let them deal with it. We're heading into middle school next year and I'm done waiting for them to deal with it. I want to hire you to step n and give them the help they need." It was good for my business but very bad for these kids who by this time were convinced that they could not read, write or do math from years of frustration and defeat.

 

 

Yep, after four years of hearing that my oldest's reading problems were due to his autism and they'd deal with it - I had him privately tested. He's supposed to be in 8th and is on a fifth grade reading level. What if I hadn't gotten involved? In fact I was told in one IEP meeting that he wouldn't have meltdowns if it weren't for me. Yes, by the principal. The same one who screamed at me in an IEP meeting.

 

His tutor left the school system because of stuff like that and is planning on alternative education for her own child.

 

I've heard it way too many times - that I was overly involved with my kids - from teachers. Tough. They're mine. My responsibility.

[Tabrett]

100k a year? Where? I really need to move and get a job there! I made 33k five years ago and my county is the highest paying county in SC. I would probably make 37k if I taught this year. Even the teachers with doctorates and 25+ year experience were only making in the 50's. No where near 100k.

[pqr]

Originally Posted by Kinsa

Blame the parents??? Why would the parents take control of their kids' educations? Hasn't the education establishment been trying to convince parents for the better part of a century that they can do it all, and do it better than you, and that you don't have to worry about it anymore?

 

Not a message I've ever heard from a teacher. Quite the opposite.

 

Bill

 

B-75. Home Schooling 2007-2008 resulution by the NEA which does claim to represent teachers.

The National Education Association believes that home schooling programs based on parental choice

cannot provide the student with a comprehensive education experience

. When home schooling occurs, students enrolled must meet all state curricular requirements, including the taking and passing of assessments to ensure adequate academic progress. Home schooling should be limited to the children of the immediate family, with all expenses being borne by the parents/guardians.

Instruction should be by persons who are licensed

by the appropriate state education licensure agency, and a curriculum approved by the state department of education should be used. .... The Association further believes that

local public school systems should have the authority to determine grade placement and/or credits earned toward graduation

for students entering or re-entering the public school setting from a home school setting.

 

Seems to me that that is exactly what they are saying.

[Rosie_0801]

First thing I'd do (after breaking the union's stranglehold and allowing merit based employment)

 

How do you allow merit based employment without creating a situation where teachers have to spoon feed their students? Or are teachers paid so well that even the base wage would be comfy? (A beginning teacher here is on a crappy wage and does not necessarily get to work only when his own kids are in school themselves.)

 

is eliminate useless teacher requirements. Anyone who has a degree in a subject ought to take some evaluation, classroom management, teacher skills (lesson planning, etc.), and student teaching classes for a semester and then let them teach!

We have that here. It's still full of mumbo jumbo, depending where you are studying, but at least it is only one extra year. Here, elementary teachers do a general teaching degree, but high school teachers do their under-grad degree with either a major and minor in the subjects they'll teach, or a double major. Within the Dip Ed, as we call them, they take specific subjects in teaching the two streams they've selected, and some general education and possibly child development subjects as well. And teaching rounds, of course. Different courses require different amounts, but two six week sessions seems the norm.

 

As far as teacher pay - actually when you look at their total compensation, they are doing quite well. Many are well over 100K for a 36 week work year. Plus many of them can work hours that allow them to be home when their kids are home from school (no childcare costs).

Woooaaaahhhh. If dh had had that, he'd still be teaching!

 

:)

Rosie

Edited October 10, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Spy Car]

Teachers, or teacher's unions questioning home schooling (which I happen to think is wrong-headed) is not the same thing as not wanting, valuing, or expecting (praying?) that parents will be involved in supporting their children's education outside school.

 

Every teacher I know loves parents to be involved, and expects it.

 

Bill

[pqr]

Teachers, or teacher's unions questioning home schooling (which I happen to think is wrong-headed) is not the same thing as not wanting, valuing, or expecting (praying?) that parents will be involved in supporting their children's education outside school.

 

Every teacher I know loves parents to be involved, and expects it.

 

Bill

 

 

...but that is not what was in Kinsa'a quote that you challenged.

 

Kinsa stated ...Blame the parents??? Why would the parents take control of their kids' educations? Hasn't the education establishment been trying to convince parents for the better part of a century that they can do it all, and do it better than you, and that you don't have to worry about it anymore?

 

and you argued that

Not a message I've ever heard from a teacher. Quite the opposite.

 

Bill

 

 

 

It would then seem that you now agree that Kinsa was correct, no?

 

I know that some teachers like parental input, right up to the point where you challenge them.

Edited October 10, 2010 by pqr

[FO4UR]

Sadly, Bill, I was told this by no less than 3 teachers here when we decided to homeschool ds. There are no other hs'ers in my town. How dare I buck the trend, and why did I think I was qualified to provide an education to my own child? I quickly shut them down by saying that if I could spend 6 years teaching grad students to deconstruct Shakespeare, then I was certainly well qualified to teach my kindergartener to read. Shut the snotty little *itches right up, it did.

 

:cheers2: I have heard similar stories from irl friends. It's a very common theme.

 

Back to the OT - I think the only way to fix this mess (ps system) is to give parents total control. PS's should have a certain $ amount allocated to funding the school buildings and hiring a *small* administration. Beyond that, every single $ needs to come attached to a child's registration. Parents must have 100% control over what school gets the priviledge of teaching their child, thus getting that govt $. The ps admin will soon learn that they can't play footsie with teacher's unions and textbook publishers and still have students (and $). The kids will be GONE b/c the parents have the choice (b/c the govt $ follows the kids) to send them to a private school. Parents, in general, will take more of an interest in education b/c they have that choice to make.

 

If that ever happened, private schools would overtake the WORLD.:lol: However, I think it would be a short time before ps's got their act together and started competing. Admin would HAVE to start hiring teachers who could actually get kids reading and writing and mathing.

 

The fed govt should spend the BIG bucks to cherry-pick the best-of-the-best teachers to reform the least desirable school districts. All professionals want to work where they can have a success and grow...we have to seriously pay the best teachers and *give them the freedom* (get rid of the overbearing tests and standards) to make their schools an extremely sought after place to teach. (Am I the only nut who would work in a dump of a school for 25k in order to work next to someone like Liping Ma for a few years???)

 

Testing should be a factor parents use to judge if a school is a good fit for their child. $ should be tied to the parents choice, not the test scores! We need to see data on how kids who scored well in 3rd grade math on this test did in high school algebra, etc. Let's give the Emperor some new clothes... (What does it matter if a school is rated "excellent" according to a test that means it fits in with other schools who graduate functional illiterates?)

 

I think it's idiotic to give parents ZERO choice in anything about the education received at the local ps, and then blame them when the kids aren't learning. Let's blame the parents...truly, I'd love to!!!...but let's give them the real responsibility first.

 

Not that I'm opinionated ...:tongue_smilie:...I guess that's why I hs.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Teachers, or teacher's unions questioning home schooling (which I happen to think is wrong-headed) is not the same thing as not wanting, valuing, or expecting (praying?) that parents will be involved in supporting their children's education outside school.

 

Every teacher I know loves parents to be involved, and expects it.

 

Bill

 

 

Then you must know an unusual group of teachers. It was precisely the lack of involvement between the teachers and my child/myself and their complete unwillingness to communicate to me my child's needs or progress that led to my decision to homeschool. (I will add that I spoke to them regularly and was always reassured that all was fine-until either conference time or progress reports came out.) All that resulted was a frustrated child who needed help and attention and was denied both. And a frustrated set of parents who wanted to help and had the door slammed in their faces.

 

NB: There is a difference between teachers who want class room donations and volunteers and teachers who want parents to be active participants in the educational process. It is my experience that there are many of the former and very few of the latter.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

As a general rule I loved, loved, loved the military kids. I taught at Leavenworth so I had a handful of them each year. It is hard to explain how I could tell before I was told - it was a bunch of little things that added up to a pretty good bet. This is going to smack of stereotyping and not all of them fit the mold, but as a group they stood out from the general student population as being more respectful and more disciplined (about turning in homework, etc.) And the boys' pants weren't three sizes too big. I also liked parent/teacher conferences. It didn't matter if they were in civilian dress, you could see those military dads coming all the way down the hall. They took their kids educations very seriously.

 

My favorite memory in three years of teaching involved a military kid. It isn't nearly as funny in the retelling, but I'll tell it anyway. One of my students was a perfectionist. Her mom told me at one p/t conference that she wished she would loosen up a bit and not make her bed just one day. She was very intelligent and hardworking - a joy in the classroom. I was fortunate enough to have her for two years. On the last day of school, she was in my last hour Spanish II class. The first hour of the day had about 50% attendance. Each period I had fewer kids in class. By that last period it was C and three other students. I didn't hear the entire conversation, but she had obviously wanted to have her wild and crazy day and skip school, because I heard her say (clearly imitating her dad), "By golly, there is such a thing as Duty and Honor, and you're going to school!"

 

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the military kids - duty and honor.

 

Thanks for expounding. This gave me a big ol' warm fuzzy. :D

 

My contribution to this thread: Who's Teaching Your Children

 

Great book. Very eye opening. Any homeschoolers insecure about whether or not their qualified should read it. The fact that it was written by teachers thrilled me too.

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

NB: There is a difference between teachers who want class room donations and volunteers and teachers who want parents to be active participants in the educational process. It is my experience that there are many of the former and very few of the latter.

 

This. When I tutored I had teachers call me and complain that I was making my students "unteachable" because I was making them not fit the class norm. I do understand (as a certified teacher myself) that teachers have to teach to the middle. But - I'm not going to hold kids back that are itching to go ahead.

 

I also had teachers complain when I was helping kids who were determined to be in the lower tracks to go above "their station" so to speak. One teacher was irate that I was teaching Algebra to a girl with LDs because "she can't do math at that level." It was news to me. She was doing fine in algebra when I taught it.

 

They however did want me to come in and cut construction paper hearts for them or to pass around birthday snacks.

[pdalley]

Then you must know an unusual group of teachers. It was precisely the lack of involvement between the teachers and my child/myself and their complete unwillingness to communicate to me my child's needs or progress that led to my decision to homeschool. (I will add that I spoke to them regularly and was always reassured that all was fine-until either conference time or progress reports came out.) All that resulted was a frustrated child who needed help and attention and was denied both. And a frustrated set of parents who wanted to help and had the door slammed in their faces.

 

 

 

This.

 

I was told time and again that the kids were fine until a huge meltdown would happen and then I'd find out the intervention plan (that I'd spent hours at school helping them come up with) hadn't been followed - or even attempted and that they'd been having trouble WAY before the inevitable blow up. I spoke to the teachers every. day. Only one ever gave me daily progress reports and good feedback. The others just wished I'd shut up and go away.

 

I'm glad some one has had some positive experiences. It's not the case out here. One of my son's workers was a teacher in the local ps and he told me flat out he'd never work there again. He makes much less money as a community support worker but he's happier. Sadly he's the type of teacher you want in the classroom. It wasn't money that drove him out either. It was the 'teach to the test' and the politics.

[jazzyfizzle]

Then you must know an unusual group of teachers. It was precisely the lack of involvement between the teachers and my child/myself and their complete unwillingness to communicate to me my child's needs or progress that led to my decision to homeschool. ...

 

NB: There is a difference between teachers who want class room donations and volunteers and teachers who want parents to be active participants in the educational process. It is my experience that there are many of the former and very few of the latter.

 

 

:iagree: Very similiar situation here.

 

I will also add, that having graduated one son from PS, in our experience, there is a huge difference between dealing with K- 1st grade situations and later on down the line.

[Michelle in MO]

Really? I was once reprimanded by a teacher for teaching my dd to read at home when she was 4. She said that was the teacher's job and I should leave it to them.

 

I had the exact same experience--more than once. I spent quite a bit of time working with my girls on reading (this was before we started homeschooling them) and during parent-teacher conferences I was definitely "put in my place" that I really wasn't qualified to instruct them. I tried to be patient and have an attitude of acceptance of the teacher's expertise and exercise humility, but when I mentioned different books which I had read on education or on topics like reading, I was contradicted by one teacher who encouraged me, in so many words, not to be a "helicopter parent."

 

I was going on the mistaken presumption that all teachers wanted parents to be involved in their children's education. This was a mistaken presumption. Some teachers are great and welcome parental involvement---but certainly not all of them. Some teachers view this as treading on their territory.

[justamouse]

I hate to add in, but the teachers who wanted my involvement were zilch and none. Matter of fact, the teacher would get on the phone with me and yell that I was messing up my daughter's education. :glare:

 

And, this is funny kinda, it was because I was teaching her the concept of division. :001_smile:

 

I forget where it was --NYT? (ETA found it and link a dinked)I read an article in which 'they' were studying what made an excellent teacher and, by what I can remember, it was the teacher having mastery of the subject. Teachers aren't taught how to teach. I mean, I can only speak of this in the abstract as I've never been a certified teacher but I've spoken with many, and I know one pretty well, she's my kid's babysitter. Sad as it is to say, I've found that I know more about actual hands on teaching than she does. She knows a lot about psychology, theory and such, but nothing about how to teach a kid and how to spin things so the kid can learn. I mean, I would ask her if she knew any ways to teach reading and basically she said she would follow the curriculum. And that's why I waffle on getting my degree in secondary education.

 

And another reason I think some teachers are horrible is because they don't have a genuine like of kids. It's a paycheck and they fast tracked, or, it's a pension, or it's a means to an end, but they're not doing it because they LIKE children and respect them as individuals.

 

 

But what makes a good teacher? There have been many quests for the one essential trait, and they have all come up empty-handed. Among the factors that do not predict whether a teacher will succeed: a graduate-school degree, a high score on the SAT, an extroverted personality, politeness, confidence, warmth, enthusiasm and having passed the teacher-certification exam on the first try. When Bill Gates announced recently that his foundation was investing millions in a project to improve teaching quality in the United States, he added a rueful caveat. “Unfortunately, it seems the field doesn’t have a clear view of what characterizes good teaching,” Gates said. “I’m personally very curious.”

 

[snip]

 

Working with Hyman Bass, a mathematician at the University of Michigan, Ball began to theorize that while teaching math obviously required subject knowledge, the knowledge seemed to be something distinct from what she had learned in math class. It’s one thing to know that 307 minus 168 equals 139; it is another thing to be able understand why a third grader might think that 261 is the right answer. Mathematicians need to understand a problem only for themselves; math teachers need both to know the math and to know how 30 different minds might understand (or misunderstand) it. Then they need to take each mind from not getting it to mastery. And they need to do this in 45 minutes or less. This was neither pure content knowledge nor what educators call pedagogical knowledge, a set of facts independent of subject matter, like Lemov’s techniques. It was a different animal altogether. Ball named it Mathematical Knowledge for Teaching, or M.K.T. She theorized that it included everything from the “common” math understood by most adults to math that only teachers need to know, like which visual tools to use to represent fractions (sticks? blocks? a picture of a pizza?) or a sense of the everyday errors students tend to make when they start learning about negative numbers. At the heart of M.K.T., she thought, was an ability to step outside of your own head. “Teaching depends on what other people think,” Ball told me, “not what you think.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th

 

So, it seems as if the act of becoming a teacher has fallen prey to the one thing we've already seen fail PS school children and that's theory with no practical foundation for application.

Edited October 11, 2010 by justamouse
clarity, links

[TechWife]

I saw the film recently with a group of teachers from my son's school including his current and former teacher from last year. It is an interesting film. Not particularly even-handed (as it is an advocacy piece) but many of the points are well taken. The teachers were generally supportive of the film-maker's point of view, in case you ere wondering.

 

Have you also seen Race to Nowhere? I'm interested in their point of view as well.

[TechWife]

Blame the parents??? Why would the parents take control of their kids' educations? Hasn't the education establishment been trying to convince parents for the better part of a century that they can do it all, and do it better than you, and that you don't have to worry about it anymore? That you, the parent, are completely inept to teach your child and that you should leave it to the professionals? That's the message that I've been hearing my entire life. I can hardly blame the parents for falling into an induced apathy.

 

Not a message I've ever heard from a teacher. Quite the opposite.

 

I was going on the mistaken presumption that all teachers wanted parents to be involved in their children's education. This was a mistaken presumption.

 

I have seen the educational system try to pass the buck like this for years. The overall message is that kids & teachers need parents' help for kids to succeed in school. However, when the rubber hits the road, the schools are very unfriendly to parents. It's their way or the highway. Otherwise, there might be a crack in the educational facade that says one must be a "trained" teacher to teach.

 

Our school system has even shut down the ability to volunteer by requiring everyone who volunteers in the classroom to have a background check and then failing to budget enough money to do all the background checks needed to clear the parents who want to go into the classroom. I know there are budget shortfalls, but really? Two parent volunteers/day = one TA, but that would put the TA out of a job - and she's trained, don't 'cha know?

[Spy Car]

Have you also seen Race to Nowhere? I'm interested in their point of view as well.

 

I have not.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I have seen the educational system try to pass the buck like this for years. The overall message is that kids & teachers need parents' help for kids to succeed in school. However, when the rubber hits the road, the schools are very unfriendly to parents. It's their way or the highway. Otherwise, there might be a crack in the educational facade that says one must be a "trained" teacher to teach.

 

Our school system has even shut down the ability to volunteer by requiring everyone who volunteers in the classroom to have a background check and then failing to budget enough money to do all the background checks needed to clear the parents who want to go into the classroom. I know there are budget shortfalls, but really? Two parent volunteers/day = one TA, but that would put the TA out of a job - and she's trained, don't 'cha know?

 

We are fortunate to be at a school that welcomes parent volunteers, and has many parents who do volunteer in the classroom.

 

Bill

[pqr]

We are fortunate to be at a school that welcomes parent volunteers, and has many parents who do volunteer in the classroom.

 

Bill

 

....very fortunate as your school appears to be almost unique. Deem yourself very lucky, especially if teachers look for parent involvement not simply as unpaid assiatants to be given busy work. As you have seen most of us were not that fortunate and it appears that most teachers are far less accepting.

Edited October 11, 2010 by pqr

[Spy Car]

Very fortunate as your school appears to be almost unique. Deem yourself very lucky especially if they look for parent involvement not simply as unpaid assiatants to be given busy work.

 

Not unique. It is the same situation at all the schools our friends children attend in the area, although I'm particularly partial to our school.

 

I will say *some* of the work I've gone in the classroom you might call being an unpaid assistant doing busy work. I've sharpened pencils, collated work sheets, prepped art projects and taken on other mundane tasks. And I've also taught math lessons and reading. It takes a village.

 

Bill

[pqr]

Not unique. It is the same situation at all the schools our friends children attend in the area, although I'm particularly partial to our school.

 

I will say *some* of the work I've gone in the classroom you might call being an unpaid assistant doing busy work. I've sharpened pencils, collated work sheets, prepped art projects and taken on other mundane tasks. And I've also taught math lessons and reading. It takes a village.

 

Bill

 

Let's put it this way, amongst all the posters who have spoken of this your experience appears to be unique. You are very lucky and the teachers in your area appear to be bucking a national trend.

 

It does not take a village, it takes a family something that homeschoolers demonstrate on a daily basis.

Edited October 11, 2010 by pqr

[Jean in Newcastle]

Not unique. It is the same situation at all the schools our friends children attend in the area, although I'm particularly partial to our school.

 

I will say *some* of the work I've gone in the classroom you might call being an unpaid assistant doing busy work. I've sharpened pencils, collated work sheets, prepped art projects and taken on other mundane tasks. And I've also taught math lessons and reading. It takes a village.

 

Bill

 

The unpaid assistant work is quite common. That is not what most of us are talking about when we say that teachers do not want parents involved in education. We've found that many teachers and schools perpetuate the myth that only "professionals" can teach a child "correctly". They will pass on parenting techniques like encouraging parents to read to their kids for 20 minutes, to have a game night etc. (which I agree are all good and helpful) but do not want parents to actually tutor their kids. To prove that this isn't a new problem, read "To Kill a Mockingbird" - Scout gets into trouble for reading with her dad and they have to hide that from the teacher.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[pqr]

. To prove that this isn't a new problem, read "To Kill a Mockingbird" - Scout gets into trouble for reading with her dad and they have to hide that from the teacher.

 

I had forgotten about that.

[Joker]

I was able to volunteer daily in my younger dd's K class but her teacher did not listen to me at all with regards to dd's education. She felt she was the "professional" and knew what was best. The end of the year she pulled me aside and apologized. The end of year testing she is required to do showed my dd at a mid third grade level (which is why I kept saying dd needed to be challenged more) and the teacher knew my dd didn't get what she should in K. She also confided that dd would not get the education she should in 1st if we stayed - so I decided to homeschool. I don't think being allowed to volunteer in the classroom frequently means the teacher values parental input.

[OnTheBrink]

 

It does not take a village, it takes a family something that homeschoolers demonstrate on a daily basis.

 

:iagree:

 

I've seen the village; I don't want it anywhere near my dd.

 

And, to chime in with yet another "drop them off at K and pick them up after graduation" mentality; I experienced this in three different districts in three different states. It's a common lament among those whose children are in the public school in my city.

[Spy Car]

Let's put it this way, amongst all the posters who have spoken of this your experience appears to be unique. You are very lucky and the teachers in your area appear to be bucking a national trend.

 

It does not take a village, it takes a family something that homeschoolers demonstrate on a daily basis.

 

Who said it didn't take a family?

 

At a school it takes a lot of families. Because parental support makes a huge difference in the lives of the children.

 

Why should we be surprised on a forum where the majority of the members are home-schoolers that many (not all )would be home-schooling due in part (or in whole) to bad experiences with public schools?

 

I get that there are some very poor schools in the god old USA.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

:iagree:

 

I've seen the village; I don't want it anywhere near my dd.

 

And, to chime in with yet another "drop them off at K and pick them up after graduation" mentality; I experienced this in three different districts in three different states. It's a common lament among those whose children are in the public school in my city.

 

Maybe you are living in the wrong village?

 

Bill

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Not unique. It is the same situation at all the schools our friends children attend in the area, although I'm particularly partial to our school.

 

I have a good friend in CA whose children attend a school similar to your son's. There are field trips to farms where they learn about sustainable agriculture, go on weekend field trips to watch the salmon run, have an expectation for parental volunteer time (actually require it), etc., etc., etc. This is far from the norm (snort! seriously, snort!) and I have a very hard time believing you don't know that. Whether or not it is unique in your area is somewhat irrelevant, as you are one of the blind men touching the most desirable part of the elephant. The rest of the elephant is not pretty, I assure you. Sure, there are some downy spots here and there but, for the most part, it's rough and dusty hide. Your son's school is so different from what would be my kids' school down the street that it might as well be on another planet.

 

I can't imagine that you don't know your situation is indeed rare in the whole of the United States. I have to say, gently, that people can feel very disrespected when they're saying how bad their situation is and they know it's the norm in their area (because they know other kids and parents in other schools in their area just like you do) and you're over there with your great school saying over and over, "No, it's not all bad." Well, we know it's not all bad but it doesn't seem like you know that it is indeed mostly bad.

 

I don't think being allowed to volunteer in the classroom frequently means the teacher values parental input.

 

Yes, and there is an enormous difference between a teacher valuing input (aka challenges to a teacher's decisions) and valuing cooperation and (aka support of a teacher's decisions).

[Plucky]

 

I can't imagine that you don't know your situation is indeed rare in the whole of the United States. I have to say, gently, that people can feel very disrespected when they're saying how bad their situation is and they know it's the norm in their area (because they know other kids and parents in other schools in their area just like you do) and you're over there with your great school saying over and over, "No, it's not all bad." Well, we know it's not all bad but it doesn't seem like you know that it is indeed mostly bad.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Bill's defense, I don't think he's had enough experience though with school. Kindergarten and 1st grade for an average or bright kiddo is generally pretty pleasant in a good district. We call the them the party grades. :)

 

Most of my kids would do just fine in ps and in fact a couple go part-time, but the classes are hand picked. It's very hard for someone who has not homeschooled to really understand the benefits and advantages of homeschooling.

 

Without first hand experience I don't think I would ever have known how great it is, but then I never, ever planned on hsing. I'm thankful everyday that we were in a really crappy school district. Now we are in an excellent district and still I wouldn't give up homeschooling voluntarily. It's been that good for my kids and family. :D

[Spy Car]

I have a good friend in CA whose children attend a school similar to your son's. There are field trips to farms where they learn about sustainable agriculture, go on weekend field trips to watch the salmon run, have an expectation for parental volunteer time (actually require it), etc., etc., etc. This is far from the norm (snort! seriously, snort!) and I have a very hard time believing you don't know that. Whether or not it is unique in your area is somewhat irrelevant, as you are one of the blind men touching the most desirable part of the elephant. The rest of the elephant is not pretty, I assure you. Sure, there are some downy spots here and there but, for the most part, it's rough and dusty hide. Your son's school is so different from what would be my kids' school down the street that it might as well be on another planet.

 

I can't imagine that you don't know your situation is indeed rare in the whole of the United States. I have to say, gently, that people can feel very disrespected when they're saying how bad their situation is and they know it's the norm in their area (because they know other kids and parents in other schools in their area just like you do) and you're over there with your great school saying over and over, "No, it's not all bad." Well, we know it's not all bad but it doesn't seem like you know that it is indeed mostly bad.

 

I know that there are bad schools. We have bad schools in our district. Schools I would not have my child attend. Period. But not every school in America is a failing school. I'm sorry if it bugs people if I point out this fact, but there are good public schools in this country. And it can feel pretty disrespectful to see all teachers trashed and having sending a child to a public school compared with giving them drugs.

 

There are good school, bad schools and everything in between. Why not just accept that? If you tell me your local school is terrible, I won't doubt you.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

In Bill's defense, I don't think he's had enough experience though with school. Kindergarten and 1st grade for an average or bright kiddo is generally pretty pleasant in a good district. We call the them the party grades. :)

 

Most of my kids would do just fine in ps and in fact a couple go part-time, but the classes are hand picked. It's very hard for someone who has not homeschooled to really understand the benefits and advantages of homeschooling.

 

Without first hand experience I don't think I would ever have known how great it is, but then I never, ever planned on hsing. I'm thankful everyday that we were in a really crappy school district. Now we are in an excellent district and still I wouldn't give up homeschooling voluntarily. It's been that good for my kids and family. :D

 

 

Well bless your heart.

[Plucky]

Well bless your heart.

 

I'd expect nothing less. :lol:

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I know that there are bad schools. We have bad schools in our district. Schools I would not have my child attend. Period. But not every school in America is a failing school. I'm sorry if it bugs people if I point out this fact, but there are good public schools in this country. And it can feel pretty disrespectful to see all teachers trashed and having sending a child to a public school compared with giving them drugs.

 

There are good school, bad schools and everything in between. Why not just accept that? If you tell me your local school is terrible, I won't doubt you.

 

Bill

 

Heavens to Betsy! Seriously?! Not one person has said that there aren't good public schools in this country. I doubt anyone even believes that. Not one person has said that every school is a failing school. It absolutely isn't bugging anyone that you are pointing out that not all schools are failing schools because, likewise, they're not saying that all schools are failing. Many of them are giving personal anecdotes just like you've done. The big difference is the ratio. You're super-fantastic experience (even when reiterated multiple times) does not, in fact, equal in number the myriad negative experiences that many others have posted about in this thread.

[Spy Car]

Heavens to Betsy! Seriously?! Not one person has said that there aren't good public schools in this country. I doubt anyone even believes that. Not one person has said that every school is a failing school. It absolutely isn't bugging anyone that you are pointing out that not all schools are failing schools because, likewise, they're not saying that all schools are failing. Many of them are giving personal anecdotes just like you've done. The big difference is the ratio. You're super-fantastic experience (even when reiterated multiple times) does not, in fact, equal in number the myriad negative experiences that many others have posted about in this thread.

 

Because this thread and this forum represent a very narrow slice of America (and, Eastern Europe ;)).

 

I admire parents who care enough about their children to take on the task of educating them when the options are inferior. And I'm involved (deeply) in my son's education because I believe in what a committed parent can do to make a difference for their child. We both want good things for our children.

 

Bill

[Joanne]

Interesting thread. It involves the 2 men on the forum that make my posting and reading and participating here an absolute challenge; probably because I am right in the middle of their extreme positions.

 

I've homeschooled for 10+ years, am teaching in a school this year, and have a child in public school and 2 privately educated at the school I teach. During the 10 years of homeschooling, I worked in public elementary schools. I have tutored and taught public school refugees for 4+ years. This was all in Texas, in a "good school district".

 

Most teachers I observed, met and interacted with seemed adequate at minimum. Many seemed terrific.

 

However, the *system* was always flawed, icky and power hungry. The need for micro-management, hierarchy, and severe protocol in the schools was evil.

 

Homework, (and, as before and after school care Site Director, I supervised a LOT of homework) was dry, repetitive, boring and the kids did it because they had to with no actual learning involved. Bullying and bullying issues were rampant.

 

I'm interested and baffled that homeschoolers and public school settings often share a commonality in perception; that "most" or "many" parents don't care, don't get involved, don't provide enough in terms of care, nurture, sleep, education support, etc. It's just not true in my experience. In my suburb of Houston, parents I've had in my daycares, I've met at organized/competitive baseball, Tae Kwon Do, church and theater arts *cared* and *cared deeply*.

 

Within my classes, I could tell with about 95% accuracy which students came from intact families within the first two weeks. I could tell which ones came from really rough circumstances. And, I could tell which ones were from military families. Parental support/life situation definately affects student behavior/success.

 

So much for the sensitivity and acceptance and non biased/non prejudicial training. :lol:

 

On a very real note, the term "intact" is an awful, hurtful and damaging term when it implies the existence of the opposite as ideal. My own family was much more broken when I was married to their Dad than in the years since.

[Spy Car]

Interesting thread. It involves the 2 men on the forum that make my posting and reading and participating here an absolute challenge; probably because I am right in the middle of their extreme positions.

 

 

How is pointing out there are good schools, bad schools and a range of schools in between an extreme position? Or being supportive of people who conclude home schooling is the best option for their children an extreme position?

 

:confused:

 

Bill

[Joanne]

How is pointing out there are good schools, bad schools and a range of schools in between an extreme position? Or being supportive of people who conclude home schooling is the best option for their children an extreme position?

 

:confused:

 

Bill

 

 

 

You know you come from a very left position - you are as left as pqr is right.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Joanne

[Spy Car]

You know you come from a very left position - you are as left as pqr is right.

 

I actually don't know that Joanne. Only on this forum does a moderate-liberal get accused of being "very left." :lol:

 

But I think I might know where you're talking from.

 

Bill

[TravelingChris]

Getting back to the article, the author cited that 15% of the schools are abject failures. That means that 85% are either mediocre or better. The movie "Waiting for Superman" is about the kids in those 15% schools. IS there a problem with some parents in that area? Undoubtedly.

 

One big problem is getting the right teachers. You have my husband and myself as examples. In a few years, both of us could be teachers. My husband has a PhD in physics and could easily teach math and science classes. I have advanced work too and am qualified to teach social studies, including economics. I can also teach statistics. But we won't be teaching. Why? Because neither of us has an education degree and we don't see any relevance in getting one. Both of us have taught in classrooms. Both of us have gotten great reviews on our teaching. But we would both have a much easier time getting hired to teach at a college level than at a primary or secondary level.

[Tea Time]

I know that there are bad schools. We have bad schools in our district. Schools I would not have my child attend. Period. But not every school in America is a failing school. I'm sorry if it bugs people if I point out this fact, but there are good public schools in this country. And it can feel pretty disrespectful to see all teachers trashed and having sending a child to a public school compared with giving them drugs.

 

There are good school, bad schools and everything in between. Why not just accept that? If you tell me your local school is terrible, I won't doubt you.

 

Bill

 

I see you are bringing baggage from another thread. I've been silent on this thread, but I can join in, if you want.

 

Pointing out that there are a few, exceptional problems and seeing only that truly is unfair to an organization as a whole. It can be, in fact, a way to use propaganda to shame and silence the good members of the organization or to discredit the organization as a whole. Take for example you favorite example, Bill, the Catholic Church. There is a small percentage of bad apples, and problems that mostly happened decades ago (problems that do in fact also happen in the publics schools, BTW), yet I have repeatedly see you bring them up. Those stories are important, but as you are saying here, to only remember the bad parts is unfair, right?

 

And it would be unfair, if it was only small parts of public education. But when huge portions of an organization, supported by public funds that are not exactly donated, become problematic and completely fail to do their designed task it is a moral imperative for the people involved to start saying there is a problem.

 

It is even better if they do not wait for "reform" and start doing something about it for themselves.

[MSNative]

100k a year? Where? I really need to move and get a job there! I made 33k five years ago and my county is the highest paying county in SC. I would probably make 37k if I taught this year. Even the teachers with doctorates and 25+ year experience were only making in the 50's. No where near 100k.

 

The 100K comes from total compensation not just salary - includes health care, retirement, bonuses and other benefits. Plus this was a national average so individual states will vary.

[PineFarmMom]

It takes a village.

 

Bill

 

And a good round of "Kumbaya" while holding hands!!! Don't forget that part!!

[Meriwether]

 

So much for the sensitivity and acceptance and non biased/non prejudicial training. :lol:

 

On a very real note, the term "intact" is an awful, hurtful and damaging term when it implies the existence of the opposite as ideal. My own family was much more broken when I was married to their Dad than in the years since.

 

 

The word intact formed no part of my training. As far as sensitivity, if you felt hurt and damaged when I said it, I'll own it was insensitive. However, I was very accepting of my students and their life situations. Non biased/ non prejudicial. Hmmm. I admit to believing that most children thrive better with both parents (unless their is abuse, etc.), so that might make my personal philosophy biased, but I wasn't biased toward my students. Of the 500 students I taught, I can say I disliked 2 of them (they were very aggressive toward me, with threats or physical intimidation). The ten or so students that I had to really work hard to like came from all walks of life. My point was that life situation/parental involvement have some real and visible influences on the kids. Some kids have a longer/harder road to walk than others. Building relationships with the kids early in the school year was important. Discerning my students' life situations allowed me to meet them where they were. A student saying "My mom worked every evening this week" has added significance when it means that kid was home alone or responsible for younger siblings. Some kids needed a lot of hand holding. Some kids needed an extra measure of respect. Some kids needed to have a quiet place to regroup.

 

Well, I've got off on rambling. If I have a point, it is that being able to tell the difference in life situations was value neutral to me.

[MSNative]

How do you allow merit based employment without creating a situation where teachers have to spoon feed their students? Or are teachers paid so well that even the base wage would be comfy? (A beginning teacher here is on a crappy wage and does not necessarily get to work only when his own kids are in school themselves.)

 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by spoon feeding students. Do you mean dumb down curriculum or just teach to the test?

While looking forward to your response, I'll try to clarify what I meant. I was trying to say that we need to eliminate the hassles and legal barriers to firing poor and incompetent teachers. Rather than having pay raises and bonuses based on seniority and tenure, they would be based on performance on the job.

 

To your second point, I was not trying to say that all teachers can be home when their kids are, but a great many can. That's why many of my friends teach. Certainly they may have work that they are bringing home, but the ability to be home when your kids are home is a huge benefit. I'm not trying to say that teachers do not work hard, don't misunderstand my intent.

 

We have that here. It's still full of mumbo jumbo, depending where you are studying, but at least it is only one extra year. Here, elementary teachers do a general teaching degree, but high school teachers do their under-grad degree with either a major and minor in the subjects they'll teach, or a double major. Within the Dip Ed, as we call them, they take specific subjects in teaching the two streams they've selected, and some general education and possibly child development subjects as well. And teaching rounds, of course. Different courses require different amounts, but two six week sessions seems the norm.

If only we had something like that here (and maybe we do somewhere and I just don't know about it.) How is that working there? In wanting that here, I was hoping that it would allow professionals who would like to go into teaching to do so more easily. Do you see that happening or not so much? Am I way off base with this pipe dream?

 

Woooaaaahhhh. If dh had had that, he'd still be teaching!

Like I said before - total compensation, not just salary. Plus it's a national average and a teacher average (including all levels of seniority.)

 

:)

Rosie

 

 

See comments above

[Perry]

While looking forward to your response, I'll try to clarify what I meant. I was trying to say that we need to eliminate the hassles and legal barriers to firing poor and incompetent teachers. Rather than having pay raises and bonuses based on seniority and tenure, they would be based on performance on the job.

Interesting article about this by Joel Kline and Michelle Rhee here

 

So, where do we start? With the basics. As President Obama has emphasized, the single most important factor determining whether students succeed in school is not the color of their skin or their ZIP code or even their parents' income -- it is the quality of their teacher.

Yet, for too long, we have let teacher hiring and retention be determined by archaic rules involving seniority and academic credentials. The widespread policy of "last in, first out" (the teacher with the least seniority is the first to go when cuts have to be made) makes it harder to hold on to new, enthusiastic educators and ignores the one thing that should matter most: performance.

A 7-year-old girl won't make it to college someday because her teacher has two decades of experience or a master's degree -- she will make it to college if her teacher is effective and engaging and compels her to reach for success. By contrast, a poorly performing teacher can hold back hundreds, maybe thousands, of students over the course of a career. Each day that we ignore this reality is precious time lost for children preparing for the challenges of adulthood.

The glacial process for removing an incompetent teacher -- and our discomfort as a society with criticizing anyone who chooses this noble and difficult profession -- has left our school districts impotent and, worse, has robbed millions of children of a real future.

There isn't a business in America that would survive if it couldn't make personnel decisions based on performance. That is why everything we use in assessing teachers must be linked to their effectiveness in the classroom and focused on increasing student achievement.

more at link

[Tabrett]

I'm interested and baffled that homeschoolers and public school settings often share a commonality in perception; that "most" or "many" parents don't care, don't get involved, don't provide enough in terms of care, nurture, sleep, education support, etc. It's just not true in my experience. In my suburb of Houston, parents I've had in my daycares, I've met at organized/competitive baseball, Tae Kwon Do, church and theater arts *cared* and *cared deeply*.

 

 

You are only meeting parents who care. Parents who are like minded whose dc participate in the same types of thing you want to provide for you dc. Parents who have their kids in baseball, Tae Kwon Do, church and theater arts care for their children. Do you know how FEW dc actually do these types of activities? How many dc get to participate in sports unless it is provided by the school? If schools stopped providing extra curricular activities, what % of parents would make sure their dc still got the enrichment?

 

I'm dealing with dh's job loss and don't have money to provide my 'littles' with activities like I did with my oldest dd. So, I have asked a teen to teach my dc dance. She started a class for homeschoolers. I said this to point out that you don't have to be wealthy to provide these types of activities for you dc, just creative. I will be as creative as necessary.

 

Just curious: Do you know what % of students in a classroom of elementary dc participated in non-school related activities?

 

I can't count people I "know" or people in my suburb, when saying most parents don't care, because the people "I" know and are around do care. They type of parent that doesn't care is not a person I would be hanging around.

 

When I taught middle school chorus, it was unbelievable the amount of student's whose PARENTs complained that I "required" there dc to attend the end of the semester performance! They would say things like, "Why does my child have to attend something that is not during school hours?". Why would a parent not want to see what their dc had been learning and preparing all semester? It really, really made me want to cry. You know how unloved it made the dc feel? Do you know how sad it was to see dc dropped off at the concert because parent just didn't want to come? How many empty seats there were? And again, compare to the over 100 school I subbed in in Louisville, KY, I thought the school I worked at was a good school.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Tabrett

[PineFarmMom]

I have a good friend in CA whose children attend a school similar to your son's. There are field trips to farms where they learn about sustainable agriculture, go on weekend field trips to watch the salmon run, have an expectation for parental volunteer time (actually require it), etc., etc., etc. This is far from the norm (snort! seriously, snort!) and I have a very hard time believing you don't know that. Whether or not it is unique in your area is somewhat irrelevant, as you are one of the blind men touching the most desirable part of the elephant. The rest of the elephant is not pretty, I assure you. Sure, there are some downy spots here and there but, for the most part, it's rough and dusty hide. Your son's school is so different from what would be my kids' school down the street that it might as well be on another planet.

 

 

 

I think we live in an area that represents the ugliest part of the posterior of said elephant. :lol: Gangs, poor teachers, parents openly telling everyone how BAD it is!!!

 

I agree with you. The "good" schools are very few and far between. My sister lives and teaches in a "good" school area. She has just figured that out recently. She didn't ever get why we homeschool. Now she knows. From observation and discussions with other parents, those "good" schools are rare and don't represent the school system as a whole. They seem to be the places that the government hasn't yet found a way to totally mess up. Give it time, though. They're working on it.

[chiguirre]

It does not take a village, it takes a family something that homeschoolers demonstrate on a daily basis.

 

Hmm, not in my homeschooling experience. I know very few hs families who don't use outside classes and activities to provide their children with a well-rounded education. There are at least a hundred families in just my local Friday enrichment program, where there kids are, in fact, being raised in part by the village.

 

ETA: Do you really not have your kids in any outside activities? Do your wife and you teach every subject at every grade? If you do, my hat is off to you!

[PineFarmMom]

Hmm, not in my homeschooling experience. I know very few hs families who don't use outside classes and activities to provide their children with a well-rounded education. There are at least a hundred families in just my local Friday enrichment program, where there kids are, in fact, being raised in part by the village.

 

ETA: Do you really not have your kids in any outside activities? Do your wife and you teach every subject at every grade? If you do, my hat is off to you!

 

Completely different!! The whole "it takes a village" mess...err concept has more to do with "It takes a village" to help make the decisions for what is best for all children thus giving the idea that parents really don't know what is best for their own children, so thank goodness for the village to help them figure that out. :glare: If my family does outside classes, they are of OUR choosing by teachers who WE agree with who are guiding OUR children towards our own family's goals, morals, beliefs, etc.

[chiguirre]

If my family does outside classes, they are of OUR choosing by teachers who WE agree with who are guiding OUR children towards our own family's goals, morals, beliefs, etc.

 

That's impressive. How do you manage to interview every coop teacher, coach, ballet instructor, scout leader, etc. that your kids will interact with before you sign up? I've known some of my kids' teachers in advance and I've become friends with others, but there are lots of times that you don't know who will be the coach or what classes your kids will be assigned at coop ahead of time. That's never been a problem for me, but I don't mind my kids interacting with adults who don't necessarily share my goals, morals or beliefs. I think that's an essential part of growing up and becoming more independent.