need advice re 8 yo teasing 5 yo

[Halcyon]

My 8 yo son is a great kid: bright, very hard working, independent, kind. He does his chores without complaint, is polite to family members and elders. He's also very energetic, loud at times, willful and disrespectful. The problem we are dealing with right now (it's been going on for about 8 months or more) is his lack of self-control when dealing with his little brother (5). They are together a lot, and much more so over the last 3 weeks as we've been travelling. My older will be playing with my younger, and then he'll go "too far". He'll repeat behavior, such as making a funny face, again and again, each time more dramatically (after all, if it was funny in one iteration, then doing another, more forceful and drmatic version will be funnier, right?) Perhaps it will be more in his brother's face, or involve pushing him or whatever. My point is, he always goes too far, pushes the boundaries too far, gets too loud, too forceful, and his brother end up in tears. My younger is quite the gentle soul, and prefers drawing, reading and playing quietly in general, so for sure part of the problem is a conflict of personalities. I've seen my older behave similarly with his friends and they think he's hysterical.

 

We ask him to stop, but once he's reached that tipping point, it's very hard for him to pull himself back, and even he sees that. We've talked to him about how he can "see" when he's veering from funny to over-the-top, but it's not working. We've lost our temper with him numerous times; we've also explained,discussed and even threatened public school (I knwo, it's bad--he's begun to think of public school as some sort of jail for punishment, which is not good at all--god forbid I need to send him there one day!!)

 

This morning I talked with him about how I feel his behavior is veering into bully territory, and that really upset him. I talked about the times he sets a great example for his brother: doing his chores, helping teah his brother how to tie his shoes, helping his brother unbuckle his car seat, and how we need to see more of this type of behavior.

 

I am wiped out. Granted, we're travelling and things are more challenging right now. But I would love some advice.

[Halcyon]

Bump?

[TheCoffeeChick]

I have the same thing happen with my two. :glare: My dd is overly dramatic about everything so it is pretty easy to cross the line from being silly to teasing with her.

 

I understand that teasing is part of being a sibling, but we do sit them down and talk it out. First I wait until they are both calm enough to talk (no crying) and ask from each of them what they think happened and why they did what they did. Sometimes when they hear what the other one was thinking, it doesn't seem so bad. Most of the time after we discuss it through, ds apologizes, dd forgives, and there is a hug and smiles to go off playing again. On the few occassions in which ds really was trying to tease dd, he has to take a time on his bed to think about why what he did was wrong before he apologizes.

 

I do make them go back to playing again afterwards because I always rememeber my mom making us be seperated after teasing happened. I think it backfired for her because I (being the oldest) would start teasing my younger brother on purpose so that I didn't have to play with him anymore.

 

I do have to make a side note that dd realizes she can manipulate a situation in her favor by crying on purpose and pointing the finger at ds to cause him to be in trouble. This is why we talk it out first, to see what really happened, and on some occassions she has to apologize to him.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Part of social training is teaching kids when "enough is enough." I think I would brainstorm with ds what cues he can see from other people that show him that he's gone quite far enough (no means no, stop means stop, tears is a REALLY bad sign, etc). And then role play to practice those. In time, the goal would be that he would learn to stop BEFORE it gets to that point or ask permission past a certain point. Again, practice.

 

This is a pretty common thing in most households. Kids often do things just to irritate one another. They often take their play or rough housing too far. They will tease in jest but then take it too far. So they just need to be trained not to push it. Well, a lot of times, many kids will learn because they'll be trying to avoid the punishment. Many other times, unfortunately, the kids don't "get it" for years despite punishment or at all and have social issues into adulthood. IMO, because there are enough people who struggle with it either minorly or even to the point of criminally, it is worth socially training our kids rather than punishing them when they go too far.

 

Additionally, it helps to put the kids on the same side. Having them "bless" one another can help CONSIDERABLY. If they are looking for ways to bless each other, they are less likely to push on things like teasing, rough housing to the point of hurting, etc. It gets into their heads and becomes the new focus so the other doesn't happen. Of course, that takes time, but....

 

BTW, I would not focus on just one child. Like Jessica says, there is a dynamic between the two of them. I would work with both children on these sorts of social training situations.

 

Hope this helps a little....

 

ETA: Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure could be a great "curriculum" (game/circle time format) for concepts that will help with this.

Edited October 6, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Harriet Vane]

It sounds like you've done the groundwork of talking this through and helping him understand the problem, but that he doesn't know how to implement the solution in real life. He needs specific coaching.

 

Try having some cues or code words. Discuss the problem again, and agree together that when you (the parent) see him nearing the edge of that cliff, you will say an agreed-upon code word. You might have a second code word also to indicate to him when he's definitely gone too far. Perhaps "yellow alert" and "red alert" or some such. (Dh and I have a code for when a kid is about to really melt down from Star Trek: "Warp core breach imminent." ;-D )

 

ALSO you need to have him practice an acceptable substitute for the negative behavior. So, when you say the code word to him, he knows to immediately start doing the substitute behavior. I would suggest that the substitute behavior should redirect his attention to deal with a person other than his brother--like that may be the time to engage in conversation with YOU, the parent, about sports or some such. It can be so hard to simply stop a behavior--it's much easier when you have something to DO with yourself instead.

Edited October 6, 2010 by strider

[fairfarmhand]

here is how I explained it to my kids...

 

teasing is when everybody is having fun.

 

The moment when it becomes one person having fun by making another person unhappy, it is bullying.

 

I've also mentioned that those type of people were the ones laughing when Jesus was hanging on the cross. Then I ask "Do you really want to be that kind of a person?" of course the child says "no"

I'll say " I didn't think so. I know you want to be kind. So keep that in mind"

 

For my other kids, the ones who are continually upset and sometimes oversensitive, whiny or tattling, I tell them that they are not to scream "quit, leave me alone, go away" They are to say the words, "please stop."

 

The other child is informed that the words "please stop." means STOP. The End. It is over. It the other child persists after those words are spoken, Mom and Dad will treat it as bullying.

 

So the kids can be racing through the house giggling while one is yelling "Quit it!" But the moment the words "Please stop." are spoken, that is it. It's time to find something else to do.

[katilac]

For my other kids, the ones who are continually upset and sometimes oversensitive, whiny or tattling, I tell them that they are not to scream "quit, leave me alone, go away" They are to say the words, "please stop."

 

The other child is informed that the words "please stop." means STOP. The End. It is over. It the other child persists after those words are spoken, Mom and Dad will treat it as bullying.

 

So the kids can be racing through the house giggling while one is yelling "Quit it!" But the moment the words "Please stop." are spoken, that is it. It's time to find something else to do.

 

We used "please stop" for years around here, as well. The one being asked to stop is NOT alllowed to respond in any other way, ie no asking "why? you were laughing" etc. Any reaction other than simply stopping was treated as misbehavior and had consequences.

 

You can also use "please stop" or another code word if you see trouble brewing. Another thing that works very well with excitable kids is a hand on their shoulder; the physical contact seems to ground them in a way that words cannot.

 

I do what I call boot camp for this type of ongoing situation. Boot camp is when I put a certain behavior in the spotlight for several days, and attempt to catch and correct each and every instance as it occurs (or before, if you see the signs). It sucks for YOU because you really have to dedicate a lot of your time and attention to it; they pretty much have to always be within your hearing and just a step away from your line of sight. It's like potty training - it works best when you stay home with few distractions!

 

Sometimes my kids know about boot camp and sometimes they don't. In this case, I would probably NOT tell them, if they might see the lack of activities or playdates as a punishment. The idea is to give them little to no chance of indulging in the undesired behavior. You need to break the habit, break the pattern.

 

If boot camp goes pretty well, other than the knock to your own sanity, I might offer a special treat. "You guys have been doing a good job talking and listening to each other. All this peace and quiet makes me want some ice cream!"

 

The reason I say little, and prefereably no, activities or playdates during boot camp is to minimize distraction for everyone. It's harder for you to focus on them when you want to be chatting with other moms at group, and it's harder for ds to control himself with the added excitement of friends (possibly egging him on, lol).

 

I also wanted to mention the reaction of his friends. Some of them might not enjoy the behavior as much as it appears. They might be going along with the crowd (I imagine a boy in the midst of a group laughing at the behavior might be reluctant to complain), or they might be enjoying it on one level and being bothered by it on another. Like that uncle everyone has who rough houses with the kids, and they love the attention and want the fun, but then he keeps on and ON with the tickling and the noogies to the head, and you want him to stop but everyone's laughing and you do like him and you don't want to look like a baby . . . yeah, that, lol! :D