I'm wondering

[Rosie_0801]

I just love this sub-forum. It so frequently makes me feel like the dunce of the year. However, I have become accustomed to that feeling, so have no problems coming out with my blatherings anyway. :D

 

I was reading a thread on the K-8 forum about a French equivalent of SSL and it set me wondering.

 

I intend to start the kidlets at Saturday School for Arabic (which I don't know) when they hit grade one, and want to add French in high school. (I don't know that either.) I told they pick up the accents better as small kids though. Would it be worthwhile to buy some of these play things over the next year, and keep them floating around? Or wouldn't that make any difference at all? Hubby says we should leave it until we are ready to learn it properly because they'll only forget. I am not expecting anyone to learn much because I'm not going to be trying to, but I'm not sure that it is "all or nothing." Hearing the rhythm of the language, even if we won't be actively learning it for another decade, ought to provide some benefit. Wouldn't it train their ears to hear nuances of sound that whoosh right past me without stopping in my brain? That'd be worth something, wouldn't it? Playing with the languages like this isn't really appropriate for older kids, but my kids are little. Playing is what we do. Maybe if I listen to this stuff over the next decade, by the time we are ready to start them in French, my ears might have learned to hear and my tongue to pronounce these things properly. Wouldn't that be useful to support their learning, even if I never find the brain space to learn the languages myself?

 

Rosie

[cathmom]

I don't know what SSL is. I think that the best way to children to get a native sounding accent is to interact with a native speaker, and that might be the only way, unfortunately.

[jld]

I don't know what SSL is. I think that the best way to children to get a native sounding accent is to interact with a native speaker, and that might be the only way, unfortunately.

 

Probably true. When I was 5, we had an exchange student from Colombia for 2 mos. When I was 13, I took a semester of Spanish, and right off I had a great accent. It must have been the exposure to that girl!

 

If I were you, Rosie, I would do whatever you reasonably could to expose the kids to the sounds of Arabic and French, and be satisfied with that. I think a lot of people get discouraged with language learning because it doesn't go perfectly. It doesn't need to be perfect to be an interesting, life-expanding experience. Good luck!

[Nan in Mass]

Isn't there something about Arabic and soft pallette formation? Not that I don't think exposure is a good idea. Just thinking that it might perhaps be too late for a perfect Arabic accent? Not that it probably matters unless you are trying to pass as a someone whose mother tongue is Arabic...

-Nan

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Probably true. When I was 5, we had an exchange student from Colombia for 2 mos. When I was 13, I took a semester of Spanish, and right off I had a great accent. It must have been the exposure to that girl!

 

 

I'm not so sure. I started Spanish when I was 11. Right from the start, my pronunciation was spot on. Even the teacher (a native from Spain) was fooled into believing I was a Spanish speaker. I had never been exposed to the language before the start of grade 7.

 

On the other hand, I' ve been exposed to English from babyhood, and still, I have an accent. I just can't get rid of it. I use English a lot more than Spanish...

 

But back to the OP. Let's look at it from a cost/benefit ratio POV.

 

What's the cost of doing that exposure? There's material to buy, there's time spent, some mommy neurones.

 

What's the benefit? Completely unknown. Close to zero.

 

So for this to be profitable, the cost of materials should be close to zero, it should be low in priority in your timetable, and you (as mommy) should have fun doing it! Can you do this?

[stripe]

Isn't there something about Arabic and soft pallette formation? Not that I don't think exposure is a good idea. Just thinking that it might perhaps be too late for a perfect Arabic accent? Not that it probably matters unless you are trying to pass as a someone whose mother tongue is Arabic...

-Nan

Although the french R is like the arabic GH sound!

[Ester Maria]

Accent is a bit more complex thing than just having been exposed to a language in childhood; there's also a lot of psychology in the whole thing: generally people imitate the speakers of certain languages better if they feel personally comfortable in the culture, accept it as their own, identify with it and with other native speakers, etc. A foreign accent is a sort of "sticking to your own identity" and maintaining a colder, more professional relationship with the language, wanting (consciously or not) to mark a difference between yourself and the speakers of the language.

 

Generally, exposure cannot hurt, but unless your children have regular active contact with the language and its speakers, they won't learn it. And even if they have that active regular contact, they might not learn the accent perfectly - there are so many factors in question here.

 

I spent so much of my early childhood in Vienna that according to all odds Viennese German should have been not my second, but my second native language. Guess what? I refused it. I couldn't help learning some of it, learning much of it perhaps, since it was around me, but I have always had an accent, a clear mark that separated "me" from "them". Later, when I learned German as a foreign language, I wasn't even a particularly outstanding student, and a motivated few without Viennese childhood surpassed me in just about every aspect of the language, accent included. Today I don't even count German on my CV, it deteriorated that much from the little I did know.

English? A decade in the US, but nope, a mark between "me" and "them" remains, I always remained culturally estranged, and even though it's a slight accent, perhaps not even instantly recognizable, it's still an accent, and only in very rare and very relaxed moments do I get myself to sound perfectly American.

Only in French did I very often get to sound like a little Parisienne when I was a child - and French is, possibly, from the phonological point of view, the most complex of the three.

 

So really, it all depends. Perfect accent with all the nuances, after all, isn't as important as speaking clearly enough to be understood. In teaching and learning languages I always focused on developing concrete, high level grammar awareness and literacy, as that's much harder to "make up for" in the later years than forcing a few nuances into your accent. A good accent is important - a perfect accent isn't, unless for whatever reason you need to pass for a native speaker.

[Osmosis Mom]

Isn't there something about Arabic and soft pallette formation? Not that I don't think exposure is a good idea. Just thinking that it might perhaps be too late for a perfect Arabic accent? Not that it probably matters unless you are trying to pass as a someone whose mother tongue is Arabic...

-Nan

 

I have never heard this. I was in the Islamic Center the other night and heard an American convert talk and make jokes in Arabic (in different dialects) and he was *very* close to sounding native actually. Not like with American where you keep sounding like a foreigner no matter what you do.... I have heard Arabic spoken before with an ever so slight accent only.

 

To Rosie, you could get videos for kids fx. and have them watch children's cartoons in French and Arabic. You'd be amazed at what they pick up passively. Apart from that then why wait till high school for French? Start in elementary school as well.....

[Kate in Arabia]

I have never heard this. I was in the Islamic Center the other night and heard an American convert talk and make jokes in Arabic (in different dialects) and he was *very* close to sounding native actually. Not like with American where you keep sounding like a foreigner no matter what you do.... I have heard Arabic spoken before with an ever so slight accent only.

I haven't heard of that before either.

 

We are a semi-trilingual household - Arabic/English/Urdu. Urdu is the language dh speaks with his family (although he has never studied it formally, so he can't read or write it well). I have only a very general ability to understand Urdu (everyday chit chat, and cooking terms lol). We don't teach it or speak it at all with the kids, but they are exposed from hearing dh speak it frequently with his family and some friends. From that smaller exposure they can already hear the different aspirated and retroflex letters, which I myself have a terrible time distinguishing; there are, like, six different distinct sounds that to me all sound like /t/ lol. But for example I found my small children asking whether it was /when/ or /wen/ (hearing the /w/ aspirated sometimes, sometimes not, we're not very consistent in American English).

 

So, I don't think it would hurt to have songs, video games, cartoons or even audio books to play even as just background noise. Maybe it won't make a difference, but I don't imagine it would hurt anything either.

[cathmom]

Ester Maria, you are the only person I have ever heard talk about a psychological aspect to accents. Do you have any recommended reading I could do to learn more about that?

[Nan in Mass]

Perhaps I am wrong, then. I had a friend from Lebanon whose US family sent the toddler to back to live with Lebanese family for a few years so he would speak Arabic all the time and have his palette harden correctly, but perhaps I misunderstood, or it was a family dialect, or they were mistaken. It seemed a rather extreme way of avoiding an accent, and at the time, I suspected that there might be other family reasons as well and didn't ask questions.

-nan

[Rosie_0801]

What's the benefit? Completely unknown. Close to zero.

 

So for this to be profitable, the cost of materials should be close to zero, it should be low in priority in your timetable, and you (as mommy) should have fun doing it! Can you do this?

 

Mmm. Not the cost of materials bit. That wouldn't be close to zero unless I was attending the local French playgroup and I can't do that. I don't think that would do us a lot of good anyway, since we'll only be here for two years, then we'll be moving away; towards the Arabic speakers, actually :)

 

To Rosie, you could get videos for kids fx. and have them watch children's cartoons in French and Arabic. You'd be amazed at what they pick up passively. Apart from that then why wait till high school for French? Start in elementary school as well.....

 

Having them study two living languages when I don't know a word of them, when I am not in any way gifted with languages (Auslan is a different kettle of fish and doesn't count at times like this) seems impossible. I can only send them to one Saturday school at a time. It seemed most sensible to send them for Arabic, and do Latin at home. I figure the Latin will provide a springboard to launch into French later. Dh and I can learn Latin at home and get a good head start on the kids.

 

So, I don't think it would hurt to have songs, video games, cartoons or even audio books to play even as just background noise. Maybe it won't make a difference, but I don't imagine it would hurt anything either.

 

I would think, at the very least, it could protect against that bad feeling you get when faced with an immensely huge new thing you have to learn, when you don't know anything at all about it. :) This might be more for me than them ;)

 

I think I'm trying to bite off more than I can chew, to be honest, but trying won't kill us :)

 

I guess it won't hurt to collect some of these things while the kids are too small to have much in the way of educational expenses.

 

So many things I'd like to learn, so little brain space to hold them. *sigh*

 

Rosie

[Joan in GE]

Accent is a bit more complex thing than just having been exposed to a language in childhood; there's also a lot of psychology in the whole thing: generally people imitate the speakers of certain languages better if they feel personally comfortable in the culture, accept it as their own, identify with it and with other native speakers, etc. A foreign accent is a sort of "sticking to your own identity" and maintaining a colder, more professional relationship with the language, wanting (consciously or not) to mark a difference between yourself and the speakers of the language.

 

Generally, exposure cannot hurt, but unless your children have regular active contact with the language and its speakers, they won't learn it. And even if they have that active regular contact, they might not learn the accent perfectly - there are so many factors in question here.

 

I spent so much of my early childhood in Vienna that according to all odds Viennese German should have been not my second, but my second native language. Guess what? I refused it. I couldn't help learning some of it, learning much of it perhaps, since it was around me, but I have always had an accent, a clear mark that separated "me" from "them". Later, when I learned German as a foreign language, I wasn't even a particularly outstanding student, and a motivated few without Viennese childhood surpassed me in just about every aspect of the language, accent included. Today I don't even count German on my CV, it deteriorated that much from the little I did know.

English? A decade in the US, but nope, a mark between "me" and "them" remains, I always remained culturally estranged, and even though it's a slight accent, perhaps not even instantly recognizable, it's still an accent, and only in very rare and very relaxed moments do I get myself to sound perfectly American.

Only in French did I very often get to sound like a little Parisienne when I was a child - and French is, possibly, from the phonological point of view, the most complex of the three.

 

So really, it all depends. Perfect accent with all the nuances, after all, isn't as important as speaking clearly enough to be understood. In teaching and learning languages I always focused on developing concrete, high level grammar awareness and literacy, as that's much harder to "make up for" in the later years than forcing a few nuances into your accent. A good accent is important - a perfect accent isn't, unless for whatever reason you need to pass for a native speaker.

 

 

Yes, these psychological aspects that you mention fit with our experience.

 

And accents can come and go depending on with whom one is talking. I notice that with people who are "exigente" (Fr) or exacting type of people my accent comes out more than with people with whom I feel completely comfortable and natural.

 

My two oldest, who have been around French speakers for 20 years a piece, with between 8-12 years in French-speaking schools, can STILL exhibit an American accent in certain situations. Even when the words are spoken correctly, getting the proper sentence cadence is also tricky.

 

I thought the factors that Cleo mentions are useful...we did a stint with Mandarin, but now I'm wishing we would have just focused on the German which is so necessary in this country. So maybe that money was wasted...but I was more attracted to Mandarin than to German...well, at the time we thought we might be going to live in China...still it was a detour which ended up detracting from my ds3's abilities in German...Hard to figure out the future...

 

Joan

[Ester Maria]

Ester Maria, you are the only person I have ever heard talk about a psychological aspect to accents. Do you have any recommended reading I could do to learn more about that?

Not really, those are mostly my personal musings that I shared with you, rather than paraphrasing something I have read. :)

 

I do, however, have a handful of friends who are psychologists and the idea makes sense to them. I don't know if anyone ever did any studies on that, though, as those are such vague categories ("being comfortable with the language", or even "native accent" itself is one huge generalization, technically there are native speakers without native accents, etc.). I do find it a good general rule of the thumb, though, albeit not scientific.

[stripe]

Accents is probably about the closest most of American English speakers come to dialects.

 

I think in many places, it's common to be able to speak in multiple dialects or styles (whether it's formal/informal in Japanese OR Egyptian/Standard in Arabic OR whatever). However I think in the US, the only thing that really comes to mind is ethnic dialects (e.g. "Ebonics") vs Standard. There are people who can "code-switch." One could even imagine the way one might speak while watching football with one's friends versus chatting with Granny. Even Hillary Clinton has been accused of doing this (there are lots of websites with clips of her "talking black" or "talking southern"). ;) I think some people tend to think this is being inauthentic or something (because we should have ONE way of speaking), not that this is a legitimate reflection of one's psychological affiliation with various groups or something. That being said, I know several American ladies, living in the US, who now speak with a moderate accent that resembles their husbands'. I suspect it grew out of talking to be understood and took off from there. I also know more than one American who suddenly had a British accent (or lots of British words like post, flat, lift) after a week in London.

[cathmom]

Accents is probably about the closest most of American English speakers come to dialects.

 

I think in many places, it's common to be able to speak in multiple dialects or styles (whether it's formal/informal in Japanese OR Egyptian/Standard in Arabic OR whatever). However I think in the US, the only thing that really comes to mind is ethnic dialects (e.g. "Ebonics") vs Standard. There are people who can "code-switch." One could even imagine the way one might speak while watching football with one's friends versus chatting with Granny. Even Hillary Clinton has been accused of doing this (there are lots of websites with clips of her "talking black" or "talking southern"). ;) I think some people tend to think this is being inauthentic or something (because we should have ONE way of speaking), not that this is a legitimate reflection of one's psychological affiliation with various groups or something. That being said, I know several American ladies, living in the US, who now speak with a moderate accent that resembles their husbands'. I suspect it grew out of talking to be understood and took off from there. I also know more than one American who suddenly had a British accent (or lots of British words like post, flat, lift) after a week in London.

 

Huh. You just reminded me of one of my most embarrassing moments ever. Dh and I were moving to the South. When we had been there to find somewhere to live, we could not for the life of us find a grocery store - they were all sort of hidden away, and we weren't familiar with the names of the stores. Anyway, a while later, I took a trip there with my mother-in-law. We were walking down the street and I happened to mention our inability to find a grocery store. A sheriff's deputy was walking towards us and before I knew it, my mil had waylaid this poor man and was asking him, "We were wonderin' where y'all hide your grocery stores" - YES! complete with fake Southern accent! I was DYING! If I could have gotten away with it, I would have pretended not to know her. He of course took her seriously and began trying to tell us how to get to several different ones. When I told dh about it, he was just cringing - he had lived through many similar episodes in his life LOL. My mil had never even been in the South except to go to Disney World, I think.

[stripe]

And I have no idea why I said "Accents is."

[jld]

That being said, I know several American ladies, living in the US, who now speak with a moderate accent that resembles their husbands'. I suspect it grew out of talking to be understood and took off from there. I also know more than one American who suddenly had a British accent (or lots of British words like post, flat, lift) after a week in London.

 

I don't have a French accent when I speak English (lol), but I certainly hear myself saying a few things, structurally, the way dh does. I guess it's just natural that spouses are going to rub off on each other after a while. And the kids sometimes mix a little French into their English.

[stripe]

I don't have a French accent when I speak English (lol),

See, I know people who do. I had a friend with an American mother who ended up with a thick Nigerian accent after 20 years.

[regentrude]

The psychological explanation was interesting, but I suspect this can not be the whole picture.

In our family, I was the one reluctant to move to the US, I feel ambivalent about where I belong, do not fully feel at home. DH, OTOH, was the one who initiated our move, embraces being in the US and does not have the conflicted feelings I do. His accent, however, is much worse than mine.

We both acquired our English under similar circumstances in school; English was the foreign language we liked and which had positive connotations (as opposed to Russian which was mandated by the communist government).

[EmilyGF]

I think accents aren't so much about your mouth formation as you grow as about your ability to hear, so training the ability to *hear*, since you can't live in a multi-lingual environment, could be a focus.

 

Who knows how to hear well? Singers. I have an almost-perfect German accent, a language I began studying in 7th grade. Non-linguists put me either in a far-away part of Germany or, if it's a bad day :-), in Denmark. How? Because I had a voice teacher who wouldn't let me sing unless I could sing perfect German vowels (this was at age 17). She taught me to hear and now I can hear many more differences in other languages.

 

For the psychological part, even though I'm good at learning languages, I feel really intimated about speaking then unless I can pass for a native. Sigh. I've got to get over it.

 

Emily

[Rosie_0801]

I think accents aren't so much about your mouth formation as you grow as about your ability to hear, so training the ability to *hear*, since you can't live in a multi-lingual environment, could be a focus.

 

 

You guys are terribly interesting.

 

So, Emily. Do you think one can learn to hear from recordings? Or does it have to be from a person (preferably a fussy singing teacher ;) )?

 

We're hoping ds takes after his dad who was in the state boys choir as a kid. Dd sounds worse than my dad, and he was previously the worst I'd ever heard. :lol: She might improve with age, we hope!

 

Rosie

[stripe]

Who knows how to hear well? Singers.

That's interesting. Makes me think of the accents of Jessye Norman, and Madonna, for that matter.

[Ester Maria]

Who knows how to hear well? Singers.

Yes - and by the way I agree with what you're saying about the importance of hearing the nuances - but even when it comes to musicians, professional musicians, excellent professional musicians, there is no guarantee.

 

Mirusia Louwerse sings La vergine degli angeli beautifully and has extremely high competences in both singing and hearing. And yet, I can tell you right away her pronunciation is not Italian enough to pass for an Italian - she messes up her vowels the same way most native English (or Dutch, for that matter) speakers do, and that's her deadly giveaway, along with a few other nuances. And there are numerous such examples in the world of music, it's not that I'm picking on some random exception right now.

 

Music can help, solfeggio and harmony can help, training your ear to hear nuances can definitely help - but just like the psychological thing, all of those are approximations only and won't even work with a lot of people.

 

Also, I'd like to point to one oft-neglected detail in this whole picture... we often talk about "Italian accent" but strictly speaking, no such thing. There are numerous Italian accents, and they differ phonologically a lot, to Italian ears. Picking an "Italian accent" actually means picking up a specific Italian accent, which means more or less "unified" models for it in the first place (one of the reasons why immersion works better for that is because you're usually stuck in the same place during your stay - and thus more chances for familiarity, settling in, and the whole psychological thing once you're there).

 

(I totally forgot where I was heading with this point since baby interrupted me meanwhile.)

[cathmom]

I guess it also depends what you hear, how much you hear the surrounding accent. In our case, when we moved to the South, I expected our 4 year old to pick up a Southern accent, but not dh and me. However, my son had a German teacher with an Indian assistant in preschool, and then teachers from the Northeast and California, and then we began homeschooling. He never got a Southern accent. I was in a graduate program for German, and no one except one of my professors had a Southern accent. So I never had much exposure. The one who picked up a slight accent was my dh! He was the one working with people all day long who talked with an accent, and he can turn it on more to fit in better.

[jld]

See, I know people who do. I had a friend with an American mother who ended up with a thick Nigerian accent after 20 years.

 

I wasn't contradicting you; I was just commenting on my own personal situation.

 

I think one reason that I haven't developed any sort of French rub-off on my English is that dh is the only French speaker I speak English to. No matter how bad my French, I always and only speak French to French speakers (writing is a different story). And we have mostly only lived in English-speaking countries. When we have done extended stays in France, we have, at times, fallen into speaking French to each other. It only lasts as long as we are in France, though. When our relationship started, dh's English was way better than my French, and since accurate communication was the goal, we started off speaking English to each other, and have just continued the habit over the last 17 1/2 years. Old habits die hard, it seems, and I doubt this one ever will, lol.

 

I hear what you say about your friend's mom. For people who are open to a culture and its language, and immersed in it for many years, it could be quite possible to develop a strong local accent. Maybe that could happen even sooner, depending, once again, on the openness and circumstances of the individual. As humans, we often just sort of naturally adapt to our surroundings, maybe even when we don't intend to.

 

You know, I think for me, even if I developed some sort of Indian accent after living there several more years, I would shed it quickly back in the U.S., or when speaking with other Americans in India. My identity is strongly Midwestern American.

[stripe]

I wasn't contradicting you; I was just commenting on my own personal situation.

Don't worry -- that's the way I took it.

 

You know, I think for me, even if I developed some sort of Indian accent after living there several more years, I would shed it quickly back in the U.S., or when speaking with other Americans in India. My identity is strongly Midwestern American.

I tend to agree; I have also found this to be true, but it helps to have kids. Who correct my English, no less (?!).

[Joan in GE]

A friend used this program and has children who speak quite a few languages (I'm not even sure how many any more).

 

Here is the method. It is based on listening...

 

http://www.tomatis.lu/institute/?page=method&language=en

 

Here they discuss languages

 

http://www.tomatis.lu/language-coaching/?page=method&language=en

 

They make a claim about fluency in half the time. Not so cheap though. If we had more money, I think we would do it, especially with members of the family that have trouble listening well.

 

http://www.tomatis.lu/?language=en

 

They have centers around the world I think...Australia..http://www.tomatis.com/index.php?lang=2&page=news

 

Joan

Edited October 13, 2010 by Joan in Geneva

[Kate in Arabia]

I guess it won't hurt to collect some of these things while the kids are too small to have much in the way of educational expenses.

That's what we did; of course we ended up with a lot of stuff that even until now we haven't used, lol. But there is a lot online these days, for example I recently heard about this:

 

First Arabic Words, with audio

 

Of course, then you need to have a system for keeping track of the online stuff as well :)

[Rosie_0801]

Spiffy, thanks Kate.

 

:)

Rosie