s/o plagiarism (IEW question). . .

[freetobeme]

so, does IEW really encourage plagiarism? my 15-year-old thinks that it might. i have never actually thought about it, but how does it transition from using models to write?

this is a sincere question. i like IEW. we've used it for years, but now my oldest feels this way. and i have others coming up behind her.

help me find the balance! ;) thanks!

[Joanne]

so, does IEW really encourage plagiarism? my 15-year-old thinks that it might. i have never actually thought about it, but how does it transition from using models to write?

this is a sincere question. i like IEW. we've used it for years, but now my oldest feels this way. and i have others coming up behind her.

help me find the balance! ;) thanks!

 

IEW is a program that helps you learn to write better, more descriptive, interesting and sophisticated writing.

 

If a child is old enough to write papers in which "plagiarism" is an issue, they are old enough to understand the difference between a KWO re-write of a selection and plagiarism.

[FloridaLisa]

No. No more than teaching a student how to take key-word notes or outlines from original sources, organize the notes and write a research paper. The introductory IEW lessons teach a student how to outline a passage, using a key-word outline. (Many programs do this. VP materials use this very heavily.) Then the student is to re-write the material using the key word outline. IEW is teaching a skill -- how to break down writing and build it back up. It's not copywork, nor is it copying. It is using a model to learn the structure of writing (ie storytelling, narration, etc.) But then IEW teaches the student to go beyond the model and use the format to create his own piece.

 

 

THE KEY to avoiding plagiarism, IMHO, is citation. Proper source citation would avoid a lot of *unintentional* plagiarism.

 

Lisa

[SonshineLearner]

I actually thought that with the whole "Write the KWO" the first day... and then waiting till the next day to start completing the paper.... that it helped NOT plagiarism.

 

My dad had someone "ghost write" for him, one time, he turned in the work... and the editor ran it by some of the sites to check it. Good Thing!! It was full of paragraphs that only changed a few words.... from maybe... "and" to "also" etc. The guy swore up and down that he didn't know that it was wrong. My dad is so full of grace that he "taught the guy to write". He "explained what was wrong"..... now my mom and I...were not so gracious about the guy's guilt!

 

:)

[i.love.lucy]

I don't think so. We are just getting started with IEW and my dd is LOVING writing for the first time. Doing KWOs on more and more sophisticated passages is just the beginning. Her papers seem to be similar to the original in content (facts) but quite different descriptively. And now we are getting to larger and large pieces of writing where you have to be able to synthesize a lot of information about elephants, say, down into a 2 page paper. The methods for doing this specifically avoid plagarism, IMO, and really teach the tools for taking the facts and finding your own way to express them. I agree with Joanne, that if your 15yo thinks it's plagiarism, then perhaps he/she should be taking a look at how much original info they are taking from their source text.

[angela in ohio]

Quite the opposite. The KWO is designed to prevent plagiarism.

 

I didn't see the original thread, but I know many people don't get past unit II or III. Once you get past that point, it is no longer an imitation-based program. Unit VI, taking just few key words form several sources, merging those into your outline, and then writing from those while not looking at the source at all, is the antidote to plagiarism. Mr. Pudewa discusses this in the TWSS.

 

ETA: I just read the original thread and responded. That's absolutely false. You can read my much longer thoughts about it there.

Edited October 5, 2010 by angela in ohio

[freetobeme]

Quite the opposite. The KWO is designed to prevent plagiarism.

 

I didn't see the original thread, but I know many people don't get past unit II or III. Once you get past that point, it is no longer an imitation-based program. Unit VI, taking just few key words form several sources, merging those into your outline, and then writing from those while not looking at the source at all, is the antidote to plagiarism. Mr. Pudewa discusses this in the TWSS.

 

ETA: I just read the original thread and responded. That's absolutely false. You can read my much longer thoughts about it there.

 

thanks - this is what i needed to know. they are taking this as a co-op class and i am not fully-versed in the curriculum. i guess a better question would have been "when do they move beyond writing from a model?" and you answered that. i am glad i asked!

 

ftr, my 15-year-old does understand about plagiarism. her concern is for others in her class who seem to be plagiarizing and not being corrected. i am not the teacher and this is just something she was discussing with me recently.

 

thanks again for everyone's thoughts! :001_smile:

[Mom0012]

I agree that it actually accomplishes the opposite. I can remember being in elementary school and being told to write a paper on some subject from the encyclopedia. I would read the encyclopedia entry and then have no idea of how to rewrite it without saying exactly what had already been said in the dictionary.

 

By making a keyword outline and putting the original source away, you are forced to come up with your own words (unless, of course, you have a photographic memory).

 

Lisa

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I made that comment and in it I suggested that she had not moved beyond that stage. Also, I do still believe that for the younger set, IEW is only a sugar-coated step-by-step guide to plagiarism. That may not be the preferred euphemism but I do indeed feel it's true.

 

I prefer a different way. If I rec'd a paper that had been done the IEW way and had not progressed beyond rewriting the kwo, I'd call it plagiarism and hand it back.

 

That does not mean that the student wasn't capable of moving beyond that. If, as I stated in the other post, she hadn't, it would be plagiarism outside of the IEW context. Only b/c it's in the context of working through the stages of IEW is it not plagiarism. Well, I cannot say that I like the distinction. If the girl in question had only gotten up to a certain point with her mother in the IEW method and if she was in a class or situation in which iew was not the norm, it was plagiarism. Why? B/c copying a work w/o citing the source and especially with little more than dress-ups is plagiarism. Just b\c you add a b/c clause, a strong verb, and a quality adj doesn't mean you didn't plagiaris, in my opinion. Back to the original thread, the girl in question copied another persons writing. period. If she had done it in an iew class, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

Further, I would say that teaching writing this way will produce writers who can write adequately. not much more. any time you give someone a crutch to use instead of teaching her to use her own thinking skills . . . well, never mind.

 

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

 

 

I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

Is my language too strong? Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? If that is the case, while maintaining my position re IEW, I repudiate every word that was hurtful or insensitive.

 

I didn't think I was being hurtful or insensitive but am happy to be educated!

[freetobeme]

i also am thankful for this assessment of iew. . .i need to think through all sides!

glad for diverse opinions!

[Laurie4b]

I made that comment and in it I suggested that she had not moved beyond that stage. Also, I do still believe that for the younger set, IEW is only a sugar-coated step-by-step guide to plagiarism. That may not be the preferred euphemism but I do indeed feel it's true.

 

I prefer a different way. If I rec'd a paper that had been done the IEW way and had not progressed beyond rewriting the kwo, I'd call it plagiarism and hand it back.

 

That does not mean that the student wasn't capable of moving beyond that. If, as I stated in the other post, she hadn't, it would be plagiarism outside of the IEW context. Only b/c it's in the context of working through the stages of IEW is it not plagiarism. Well, I cannot say that I like the distinction. If the girl in question had only gotten up to a certain point with her mother in the IEW method and if she was in a class or situation in which iew was not the norm, it was plagiarism. Why? B/c copying a work w/o citing the source and especially with little more than dress-ups is plagiarism. Just b\c you add a b/c clause, a strong verb, and a quality adj doesn't mean you didn't plagiaris, in my opinion. Back to the original thread, the girl in question copied another persons writing. period. If she had done it in an iew class, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

Further, I would say that teaching writing this way will produce writers who can write adequately. not much more. any time you give someone a crutch to use instead of teaching her to use her own thinking skills . . . well, never mind.

 

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

 

 

I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

Is my language too strong? Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? If that is the case, while maintaining my position re IEW, I repudiate every word that was hurtful or insensitive.

 

I didn't think I was being hurtful or insensitive but am happy to be educated!

 

huh? This is the only emotional post I see on this thread.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

Really? what part?

[Laurie4b]

so, does IEW really encourage plagiarism? my 15-year-old thinks that it might. i have never actually thought about it, but how does it transition from using models to write?

this is a sincere question. i like IEW. we've used it for years, but now my oldest feels this way. and i have others coming up behind her.

help me find the balance! ;) thanks!

 

If used correctly, it doesn't encourage plagerism. Imitation of good writing, like imitation of good paintings, etc. is one way to learn good writing. A student turing in an IEW work at the stage of imitation is supposed to be imitating; there is no pretense that the work is original. The point of the work not being original is to take that piece of writing out of the equation; instead of thinking up something original, using sentence variety, using strong verbs, using quality adjectives, spelling, capitalizing, and punctuating correctly, the student gets to take the "original" part off the table for a while and the rewrites allow you to do the other parts step-by-step.

 

If a high school student is using IEW for the first time, this should be explained very clearly to avoid plagerism in other subjects or down the line. I wouldn't bother with this too much in elementary school, but in middle or high school, it's more critical.

 

(One of my problems with IEW is the stuff they give you to imitate is often not good writing.)

 

It could encourage plagerism if the distinction between a technique for learning/practicing good writing and the actual writing of original work is not made--but that would be the fault of the teacher, not the program.

[Joy at Home]

IEW is a program that helps you learn to write better, more descriptive, interesting and sophisticated writing.

 

If a child is old enough to write papers in which "plagiarism" is an issue, they are old enough to understand the difference between a KWO re-write of a selection and plagiarism.

 

:iagree:

[Joy at Home]

I made that comment and in it I suggested that she had not moved beyond that stage. Also, I do still believe that for the younger set, IEW is only a sugar-coated step-by-step guide to plagiarism. That may not be the preferred euphemism but I do indeed feel it's true.

 

I prefer a different way. If I rec'd a paper that had been done the IEW way and had not progressed beyond rewriting the kwo, I'd call it plagiarism and hand it back.

 

That does not mean that the student wasn't capable of moving beyond that. If, as I stated in the other post, she hadn't, it would be plagiarism outside of the IEW context. Only b/c it's in the context of working through the stages of IEW is it not plagiarism. Well, I cannot say that I like the distinction. If the girl in question had only gotten up to a certain point with her mother in the IEW method and if she was in a class or situation in which iew was not the norm, it was plagiarism. Why? B/c copying a work w/o citing the source and especially with little more than dress-ups is plagiarism. Just b\c you add a b/c clause, a strong verb, and a quality adj doesn't mean you didn't plagiaris, in my opinion. Back to the original thread, the girl in question copied another persons writing. period. If she had done it in an iew class, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

Further, I would say that teaching writing this way will produce writers who can write adequately. not much more. any time you give someone a crutch to use instead of teaching her to use her own thinking skills . . . well, never mind.

 

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

 

 

I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

Is my language too strong? Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? If that is the case, while maintaining my position re IEW, I repudiate every word that was hurtful or insensitive.

 

I didn't think I was being hurtful or insensitive but am happy to be educated!

 

:confused::confused: Did I miss a post?

[amydavis]

huh? This is the only emotional post I see on this thread.

 

:confused::confused: Did I miss a post?

 

:iagree:

 

The post that both of you referenced seemed to come out of nowhere, and was so full of emotion, I went back through to see what I missed! The rest of the thread was simply people reassuring the original poster that this program was okay.

I don't get it... :confused:

[rafiki]

.

[Joy at Home]

I made that comment and in it I suggested that she had not moved beyond that stage. Also, I do still believe that for the younger set, IEW is only a sugar-coated step-by-step guide to plagiarism. That may not be the preferred euphemism but I do indeed feel it's true.

 

I prefer a different way. If I rec'd a paper that had been done the IEW way and had not progressed beyond rewriting the kwo, I'd call it plagiarism and hand it back.

 

That does not mean that the student wasn't capable of moving beyond that. If, as I stated in the other post, she hadn't, it would be plagiarism outside of the IEW context. Only b/c it's in the context of working through the stages of IEW is it not plagiarism. Well, I cannot say that I like the distinction. If the girl in question had only gotten up to a certain point with her mother in the IEW method and if she was in a class or situation in which iew was not the norm, it was plagiarism. Why? B/c copying a work w/o citing the source and especially with little more than dress-ups is plagiarism. Just b\c you add a b/c clause, a strong verb, and a quality adj doesn't mean you didn't plagiaris, in my opinion. Back to the original thread, the girl in question copied another persons writing. period. If she had done it in an iew class, it wouldn't have been a big deal.

 

Further, I would say that teaching writing this way will produce writers who can write adequately. not much more. any time you give someone a crutch to use instead of teaching her to use her own thinking skills . . . well, never mind.

 

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

 

 

I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

Is my language too strong? Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? If that is the case, while maintaining my position re IEW, I repudiate every word that was hurtful or insensitive.

 

I didn't think I was being hurtful or insensitive but am happy to be educated!

 

 

Okay, I see your other post now. I disagree wholeheartedly, and feel you are mischaracterizing his program as a whole.

 

I will let Mr. Pudewa speak for himself:

 

http://www.excellenceinwriting.com/files/Plagiarism.pdf

[angela in ohio]

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

No, I'm just tired of people using a bit or two of IEW and then speaking with authority on it. There have been other posters over the years here who characteriszed it as "re-writing with dress-ups," also, but that is only the first two units. Those are preliminary exercises which are built upon in later units. For an older student, those two units would be covered in a few weeks; for a younger student, a few months at most. There is so much more to the program. The comparison with math would be to use the first grade book only and then say the K-6 program only teaches simple addition and subtraction.

 

I have used many writing programs (I sometimes need to use what other parents request for tutoring or teaching co-op classes,) so I have no vested interest in IEW. I have seen it do wonders for some students, though. I would hate to have a parent not use it, if is the program that would work for their child, based on inaccurate information.

[Veritaserum]

If the first two units of IEW are plagarism, then so are copywork and dictation. Imitation is a way to practice technique without having to also come up with original content. It is unreasonable to ask a young writer to do two new things at the same time--SWB says this in The Complete Writer. I agree that the selections used for KWO exercises in IEW could be better. We are using the Ancient History Theme book this year and I'm inwardly rolling my eyes at some of the passages. Next year I will find our own source texts. For now I like the hand-holding. :)

[Laurie4b]

Really? what part?

 

Everyone else on this thread has simply said: IEW does or doesn't promote plagerism and here's why I have this opinion. There was not one word with emotional connotations used elsewhere on this thread. So I'm reading along, and all of a sudden come on your post in which you assume emotion of others:

 

Here is the last part of what you wrote: I can see that several of you seem emotional about this subject. I don't really get that either. If you said that our math choice produced students who couldn't solve a problem w/o a bar diagram I'd laugh and tell you about how my girl keeps getting in trouble with her teacher for not showing her work. I don't really see what you could say that would make me so . . . I don't know . . . ardent.

 

Is my language too strong? Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? If that is the case, while maintaining my position re IEW, I repudiate every word that was hurtful or insensitive.

 

I didn't think I was being hurtful or insensitive but am happy to be educated! " Accepting that at face value, here goes:

If you're carrying over an argument that got emotional on another thread, I guess I would wonder why you brought it to this one.

 

If you are wondering why your words would provoke emotion (you say you're happy to be educated) , I'll share what I think it was. (I don't really have a dog in the fight, so it doesn't bother me.)

"I Also, I do still believe that for the younger set, IEW is only a sugar-coated step-by-step guide to plagiarism. That may not be the preferred euphemism but I do indeed feel it's true.

 

Your words in blue are a very provocative way of stating your opinion--which you recognize by saying they weren't preferred.

 

Further, I would say that teaching writing this way will produce writers who can write adequately. not much more. any time you give someone a crutch to use instead of teaching her to use her own thinking skills . . . well, never mind. You made a blanket judgment that IEW produces not much more than adequate writers. You then made a straw man to bash and again, used provocative language and indicated that your way was superior. This generally annoys people.

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all. This comes across as snobbish. "You go ahead using your inferior program if you want to." It would be better if you supported your opinion with examples or if you gave examples of alternative programs. You also are showing a basic misunderstanding of the IEW methodology and then bashing it.

 

 

Is my language too strong? Yes. Does it make you feel that I've judged you for choosing IEW? It probably makes people feel that you are mischaracterizing a program and then bashing it. Most people think of that as unjust.

 

All this is very different than if you keep your language neutral instead of provocative and use specific examples. It would probably also be a good idea to state your degree of familiarity with the program. Have you flipped through it? Purchased it? Used it? Have friends who have used it? Taught a class in which part of the class has used it and part has not? In other words, let people know on what you're basing your opinion since it appears that you are actually not very familiar with anything but the first unit of the program, nor with the more general classical method of teaching writing which IEW adapts.

 

For context, I am not a rah-rah fan of IEW. I think it has its pluses and minuses.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Laurie4b

[angela in ohio]

thanks - this is what i needed to know. they are taking this as a co-op class and i am not fully-versed in the curriculum. i guess a better question would have been "when do they move beyond writing from a model?" and you answered that. i am glad i asked!

 

ftr, my 15-year-old does understand about plagiarism. her concern is for others in her class who seem to be plagiarizing and not being corrected. i am not the teacher and this is just something she was discussing with me recently.

 

thanks again for everyone's thoughts! :001_smile:

 

Not all IEW co-op teachers are created equal. We once attended a co-op, and the only class available to my middle dd was an IEW writing class. I had no interest in getting outside writing instruction, but I had no other option for her. The teacher butchered the program, and it was a shame. She also knew little about writing in general. For example, every single time my dd wrote a complex or compound sentence, she marked it in red and told her to make two simple sentences. :001_huh: I took it as an opportunity to teach how to make a teacher happy and told her to forget everything the lady said about writing after the class was over. :001_smile: So just because she is using IEW, that doesn't mean it will automatically be taught well or correctly. You will still want to keep an eye on things, just as in any other co-op course.

 

They should be moving beyond the first few units very quickly in a class for 15 yos. Within a month, they should hopefully be into multiple source reports and then essays. There can be no simple re-writing of one source in those, and if there is, it is plagiarism plain and simple. By correctly following the IEW model, they will be completely unable to plagiarize. Of course, even then, just as in ANY other writing course, some students will attempt to copy and take the easy way out instead of doing the work and following directions. That is not a condemnation of the writing instruction; that is unethical behavior on the part of the student. IMHO, I would encourage your 15 yo to mentor the other students outside of class time and provide them information about plagiarism if the teacher doesn't.

[angela in ohio]

If the first two units of IEW are plagarism, then so are copywork and dictation. Imitation is a way to practice technique without having to also come up with original content. It is unreasonable to ask a young writer to do two new things at the same time--SWB says this in The Complete Writer. I agree that the selections used for KWO exercises in IEW could be better. We are using the Ancient History Theme book this year and I'm inwardly rolling my eyes at some of the passages. Next year I will find our own source texts. For now I like the hand-holding. :)

 

I do like IEW, but the theme-based writing books are awful, imho. I have had to teach from two of them and guide a teacher who was using another one of them. Ick. I use the TWSS straight up. :001_smile:

[FloridaLisa]

I know that IEW is very popular. Great. I don't think that it will produce great writers. adequate at most. I truly hope you prove me wrong! I want a thinker and writer and I dont' think that iew is the right program for that. at all.

 

You know, I used to really hold my nose to IEW. I hadn't used it, but what little I did know caused me to avoid it. I loved walking right past the IEW booth while others congregated around the videos and bought without reservation. :001_smile:

 

But then, a co-op we were in decided to use it. That year, I used IEW-C Intensive and CC with my three oldest. I had a new baby with some issues, a toddler, and five others to teach. IEW got my kids writing every single week, relieved much of my teaching burden and allowed me to play editor. I was pleasantly surprised that my intuitive writers still showed style while my novice writer thrived with the structure. I learned that IEW definitely has a place in the how-to-teach-writing market. In fact, it would probably be one of my first recommendations for moms who are uncomfortable teaching writing and/or have dc that are struggling.

 

We haven't used IEW every year. IEW comes up short in several areas. But, having walked through a full year with IEW with many students at many different levels, I no longer write it off.

 

Lisa, unemotionally attached to any writing program. :D

[Murphy101]

Yes.

 

At the very least, it seems there is possible agreement that the first two parts are too close to it for some people's comfort.

 

The rest might not be, but honestly, I wouldn't look beyond that.

 

I see plagiarism, I move on pretty quick because I don't have much patience for it in general and even less for a program that starts off teaching it.

 

His own words don't change my mind.

[Chaqar]

You know, I used to really hold my nose to IEW. I hadn't used it, but what little I did know caused me to avoid it. I loved walking right past the IEW booth while others congregated around the videos and bought without reservation. :001_smile:

 

But then, a co-op we were in decided to use it. That year, I used IEW-C Intensive and CC with my three oldest. I had a new baby with some issues, a toddler, and five others to teach. IEW got my kids writing every single week, relieved much of my teaching burden and allowed me to play editor. I was pleasantly surprised that my intuitive writers still showed style while my novice writer thrived with the structure. I learned that IEW definitely has a place in the how-to-teach-writing market. In fact, it would probably be one of my first recommendations for moms who are uncomfortable teaching writing and/or have dc that are struggling.

 

We haven't used IEW every year. IEW comes up short in several areas. But, having walked through a full year with IEW with many students at many different levels, I no longer write it off.

 

Lisa, unemotionally attached to any writing program. :D

 

My original impression of IEW was similar to yours, Lisa. I tended to agree with SWB's assessment of the program and never got overly excited about teaching my kids to write in a sometimes wordy, awkward style.

 

However, we started using the program this year as part of CC's Essentials program (because our need for accountability and an audience for my son's writing trumped my curriculum preference) and what a perfect fit it is for my struggling writer!

 

My oldest DS, despite being an avid reader, typically balked at writing. Oral narrations flowed freely but anything written was arduous for both of us. He is a big-picture thinker who sees no need for the details necessary to produce good writing. With IEW he has felt empowered to make improvements to his bare-bones writing and, among other things, loves to look up strong verbs that take his writing to a whole new level. I am thrilled with his progress and his newfound understanding of the importance of choosing his words carefully. We have discussed and my son understands that the ultimate goal in writing is not to have a paper that includes all of the "dress-ups", but that he is simply learning skills--how to expertly wield an assortment of tools in his writing toolbox.

 

As for the characterization of IEW as a "crutch," I agree that this certainly came across as though it was intended to belittle the program, but, in our case, I would agree that it is a type of crutch that I am thankful to have available for this particular child! If the first several weeks are any indication, the crutch is allowing his writing to develop where other programs, for more intuitive writers, left him floundering. We'll be happy to leave the crutch behind if/when it holds him back (and I think it likely will at some point).

 

In my opinion, home educators are well-served by having IEW as one of many writing program options. I hate to see any program mischaracterized as "all good" or "all bad" and just wanted to offer our experience.

[Joy at Home]

Yes.

 

At the very least, it seems there is possible agreement that the first two parts are too close to it for some people's comfort.

 

The rest might not be, but honestly, I wouldn't look beyond that.

 

I see plagiarism, I move on pretty quick because I don't have much patience for it in general and even less for a program that starts off teaching it.

 

His own words don't change my mind.

 

 

Then we have very different understanding of what constitutes plagiarism.

[Joy at Home]

They should be moving beyond the first few units very quickly in a class for 15 yos. Within a month, they should hopefully be into multiple source reports and then essays. There can be no simple re-writing of one source in those, and if there is, it is plagiarism plain and simple. By correctly following the IEW model, they will be completely unable to plagiarize.

 

:iagree:

 

KWOs are a tool in the early stages, but they quickly move on. Those who judge IEW to encourage plagiarism just don't have a full understanding of the program as a whole, pure and simple.

[Karis]

:iagree:

 

KWOs are a tool in the early stages, but they quickly move on. Those who judge IEW to encourage plagiarism just don't have a full understanding of the program as a whole, pure and simple.

 

 

:iagree:

 

My son does not have an issue with plagiarism simply because he has had the benefit of using IEW properly.

[angela in ohio]

Then we have very different understanding of what constitutes plagiarism.

 

I agree. I thought plagiarism was claiming another's writing as your own, either to publish it or to use it for an assignment. I don't understand how this is the same as the imitation method of writing practice, even if students were asked to rewrite verbatim, which they are not.

 

Of course, coincidentally I have been reading Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student this evening while waiting at soccer practice, and so am influenced to the usefulness of imitation by the author's recommendation and the excerpts from writers praising this method. :001_smile:

[angela in ohio]

I am thrilled with his progress and his newfound understanding of the importance of choosing his words carefully. We have discussed and my son understands that the ultimate goal in writing is not to have a paper that includes all of the "dress-ups", but that he is simply learning skills--how to expertly wield an assortment of tools in his writing toolbox.

 

Yep. Many people never look closely enough to figure out that the student is not meant to use all the dress-ups in every paper they ever write forever. The reason for putting them all in papers is to practice using them, to over-practice them, even. Just as I wouldn't expect my child to do math flash cards forever, I understand that my dc will move beyond needing to drill the dress-ups and just use them as needed.

 

I have moved many students out the other end of IEW and helped them find their own voice, and it really makes the quick initial assessments of some about IEW funny to me.

[Joy at Home]

Yep. Many people never look closely enough to figure out that the student is not meant to use all the dress-ups in every paper they ever write forever. The reason for putting them all in papers is to practice using them, to over-practice them, even. Just as I wouldn't expect my child to do math flash cards forever, I understand that my dc will move beyond needing to drill the dress-ups and just use them as needed.

 

I have moved many students out the other end of IEW and helped them find their own voice, and it really makes the quick initial assessments of some about IEW funny to me.

 

Yes. Also, both components of the program, i.e., the "structure" and the "style" are not dependent on each other. You can most definitely use his methods for writing structurally through different genres without using the dress-ups; or use his checklist of dress-ups to add to whatever writing program you are doing. It's not all or nothing, which is why I love using TWSS alone, because I can tailor to the child and be flexible.

[Miss Sherry]

I agree. I thought plagiarism was claiming another's writing as your own, either to publish it or to use it for an assignment. I don't understand how this is the same as the imitation method of writing practice, even if students were asked to rewrite verbatim, which they are not.

 

Of course, coincidentally I have been reading Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student this evening while waiting at soccer practice, and so am influenced to the usefulness of imitation by the author's recommendation and the excerpts from writers praising this method. :001_smile:

:iagree: