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TOG level Q's-Long


bluemongoose
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I am new to TOG and I need help where to place in the stages/levels of

TOG, and when to move the kids up.

 

Kid #1 Turning 8 in March. She was taught using Connections Academy for 1st and

2nd grade. She started K on time (5.5 yrs), but skipped K and was given 1st

grade curriculum based on a test, so if she had stayed in Connections this year

she would have been in 3rd. She is reading fluently on about a 5th-6th grade reading

level and writing at 3rd grade level. She was placed in Upper Grammar for this

year (TOG y1). How many years should she continue to be in Upper Grammar before

switching to Dialectic? Would it make sense to go back to calling her a second

grader and have her graduate at 18yrs? Would Dialectic and Rhetoric levels be

too hard if she entered it too early? This kiddo is not mine, she is a friends.

Friend asked my opinion and I said I would just keep her in UG until she was in

6th based on age and then move her up because I have heard there was a jump in

difficulty in D and R. And then she would just graduate "on time". Was I right,

or wrong?

 

 

 

Kid two Turning 6 in December (this is my kiddo). She didn't use Connections.

She is also reading fluently at a 5th grade reading level and working at about

a 2nd grade level in other subjects. She has not started TOG yet, will be in

November and I planned on putting her into LG for now. Is this wrong based on

her reading ability? I am calling her a 1st grader because it is closest to her

age and more fitting than K. In PS she would have been allowed to go to K this

year. I figured I would move her up to UG in 3rd and follow the 3-5th UG, 6-8th

D, 9-12th R.

 

 

How do you know where to start with placement, and how do you know when to move

to the next level? Do you just follow the grade levels that TOG applies to the

LG, UG, D, and R? What about with advanced students? Also, what would your

recommendation be for Kid #1 and Kid #2?

 

Thanks!

Edited by bluemongoose
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Don't use grade levels as your sole determiner for placement. The biggest difference between LG and UG is how capable the child is of doing work independently. LGs have nearly everything read to them. UGs do nearly all of the reading themselves, can understand/digest what they read and learn from it without a lot of handholding. If a child has a high reading and comprehension level but you don't think they could wade through deeper topics, you might want to consider having a foot in each camp. Maybe UG lit, LG history, and a mix of the two levels for hands on and geography. Go one unit at a time. If you need to go up for the next level, do so.

 

Going from UG to D is based on much more than reading level and grade level. The D readings may not always be at a higher reading level than some UG readings. Sometimes they are, sometimes not. They will address meatier and/or tougher issues. You don't want to rush your child into them. Also, with the D level comes accountability and thinking questions. Many kids can easily read the D selections but would really struggle with the AQ&TQ ... not to mention making the connections during discussion time. This transition from UG to D is based more on the child's development than anything else. Unless they are showing outward signs of puberty, are beginning to question/argue just about anything on a more abstract level, are ready to take notes from what they read (or learn how to do so), they should stay UG. There is absolutely no benefit in rushing the transition. If their brains have not yet reached that developmental stage, they aren't ready. Even if a child can read on a high school (or above) level, that is no indication that they would be D instead of UG. (You may want to give such a child lots of supplemental reading assignments or really focus on nailing their writing skills, but you won't benefit at all from pushing them into D level.)

 

Of course, going up to the R level requires another level of processing and analytical maturity altogether. No matter what age they are when they get here, they need to be able to do the work. If they are in 7th or 8th grade and are really, truely capable of doing high school work, have them do it, get high school credit for it, and graduate accordingly. Check your state requirements, though. Not all states allow high school credit to be given to students not yet in 9th-12th grades.

 

So, as far as kid#1 or kid#2 goes, pick a level for a unit and see how it goes. You can always supplement with the alternate readings if you would like to start in LG. Or start with UG and read the selections aloud to your children at first, then move up to reading round robin style the next week with your children, and then finally have them read everything to you in another week while asking plenty of questions to see what they are actually getting out of them. If they're grasping the material without interpretation from you, turn them loose indepently.

 

Sorry this is so disjointed but my younger kids are playing in the rain and shouting questions through the windows as me as I type.

 

Enjoy.

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Kid #1 (who is 7 now, right?) - I think UG is appropriate for reading level, but she may enjoy some of the LG selections more for content. There are a lot of fun picture books in LG that my kids love. As for how long should she stay at a certain level, this just can't be determined now. A lot of early readers level off around the 4th grade. She may be happy in UG for years. She may be ready to move to D in the 5th grade. That's something that will need to be determined in a year or two. I almost never move my kids up a level all at once. My UG kids will read a D selection or two one unit. The next unit they may read all D literature and all UG history. The next year they'll make the complete transition to D, but I may not require Church History until the next year. I really base the work level on the response of my students. There are very few students I would consider moving to Rhetoric early. The Rhetoric level is hefty, and the students need the maturity to handle the workload and content. There is plenty to do at the Dialectic level to keep advanced students stimulated.

 

Kid #2 - I would keep her in LG. She'll be able to read some of the books on her own with her reading level. She'll need some to be read to her, and there will be plenty of pictures to pique her curiosity. She'll enjoy the LG selections more than UG. Enjoy these precious young years. If you have time on your hands, use a D book as a read aloud, or do more hands-on activities.

Have fun! :)

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Kid #1 (who is 7 now, right?) - I think UG is appropriate for reading level, but she may enjoy some of the LG selections more for content. There are a lot of fun picture books in LG that my kids love. As for how long should she stay at a certain level, this just can't be determined now. A lot of early readers level off around the 4th grade. She may be happy in UG for years. She may be ready to move to D in the 5th grade. That's something that will need to be determined in a year or two. I almost never move my kids up a level all at once. My UG kids will read a D selection or two one unit. The next unit they may read all D literature and all UG history. The next year they'll make the complete transition to D, but I may not require Church History until the next year. I really base the work level on the response of my students. There are very few students I would consider moving to Rhetoric early. The Rhetoric level is hefty, and the students need the maturity to handle the workload and content. There is plenty to do at the Dialectic level to keep advanced students stimulated.

 

Kid #2 - I would keep her in LG. She'll be able to read some of the books on her own with her reading level. She'll need some to be read to her, and there will be plenty of pictures to pique her curiosity. She'll enjoy the LG selections more than UG. Enjoy these precious young years. If you have time on your hands, use a D book as a read aloud, or do more hands-on activities.

Have fun! :)

 

:iagree:We have been using TOG for about 2 years now and I think this is excellent advice.

 

I also agree about moving into Dialectic being undetermined until later as Monica suggested.

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Thanks...this is helpful.

 

I think my friend is wondering so far ahead because she is trying to slowly collect the books used from the Goodwill and Paperbackswap. I do the same, but I have more kids than she does, if I get something that is the wrong level per TOG Y, I will likely have another kiddo who uses it later.

 

I am very comfortable with my DD being in LG. I want it to be fun for her...I was just second guessing if I was doing the right thing based on her reading level. And I was also wondering if I should keep her in LG for the 1st and 2nd grades or move her up to UG early. I realize that TOG is less about grade level, but I went to PS and I was a PS teacher...it is hard to break from that mold:lol:.

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OP, :iagree: on the advice given.

What would you consider to be an arguing child who is arguing on an abstract level? Could you give me an example? I may have a 10 year in that category. He's definately changing to a different level of something...

Beth

A child ready for TOG's Dialectic can make connections and is learning to express those connections. Here's what I mean.

 

They read the history, the lit, church history, and do the mapwork. To an UG student, this will be information remembered in 4 Subjects of school, but to a Dialectic student, they will "see" the history within the literature and connect the entire tapestry as ONE picture, not separate subject matter; actually applying the setting (in history and literature) with their geography. For example, knowing coastal cultures and how fishermen migrate to mountainous regions, comprehending how that might affect their society as a whole (politics, religion, work, clothing, food). They will pick these things out in the literature and church history readings and express that connection as their own opinion, not just parroting facts or Momma's opinion. You'll see a lot of light bulbs during this time :) For example, say they studied Rome, they will take what they know, assimilate the study of Roman history with their new unit on Italy's reunification and begin to understand how it has affected the unification of Italian city states --- connecting the past to the "present" study.

 

A Dialectic student can recognize the literary elements in depth, beyond character, plot and setting, and be able to foresee a reasonable, not make-believe, but reasonable resolution to climax, pick out archetypes, compare a variety of works and express that connection as their own opinion, again, not just parroting facts or what Momma teaches them. They'll read Great Expectations and understand why things were as they were for Pip; also incorporating how the political climate affected Dicken's writing. A Grammar student might tell you all about the story and a lot about London, but wouldn't necessary place the connections of the "behind the scenes" of London life. Gulliver's travels is another great example of this. Grammar could summarize, Dialectic would begin to understand the political influence.

 

After the Dialectic stage, they will move to Rhetoric, where they will be able to not only connect the tapestry, but also form plausible arguments on whether or not they agree or disagree. They'll cite a variety of time periods or speak in depth about the entire area of time, not just one part --- they can argue it well b/c they can also write well by then and form arguments w/o fallacy.

 

Hope that helps. You will really see a difference. Your child, when ready for D will make connections and be able to answer questions in a much more detailed fashion; grammar students are clearly more elementary (ha ha) in their "complete sentences" answers via restating questions :)

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What would you consider to be an arguing child who is arguing on an abstract level? Could you give me an example? I may have a 10 year in that category. He's definately changing to a different level of something...

Beth

 

Yeah, I noticed that just plain arguing about everything happened at about 10 here, too. When dd shifted from just challenging me ("But, Mom, why do I have to clean my room? No one goes in there but me anyhow.") to giving me a series of seemingly thought-out reasons ("OK, Mom. I know you want me to clean my room even 'though no one goes in there except me. It may look like a mess to you but I know where everything is. So when you want me to work on science, I know just where my book and notebook are. If I clean it up to your standards, I'll probably have to spend 20 minutes looking for my stuff before I start science. I'd NEVER think to look on the shelf because that's just not where I would put it.") I knew she was ready for D. OK, we're working on the heart issues, too -- she needs to do what I ask her to do simply because I ask. But the signs that her brain can function in that logic stage are there.

 

Another great sign was when the type of questions she asked changed from concrete to more esoterical and abstract. Last night we were reviewing before a science test. Her text has mentioned at during the time of the Roman Empire, people were not trying to scientifically explain WHY things occured since they attributed much to the interference of their many pagan gods. It went on to say that as that changed, and people were more interested in the WHY, true science emerged. So dd asks me, "Mom, how do you explain the ancient Greeks then? The Roman gods were based on the Greek gods so they were basically the same. But the ancient Greeks DID spend time trying to investigate and explain WHY things happened. So didn't true science start then?"

 

A UG would take the text basically at face value unless they didn't under stand it. A D compares what they read to other related/unrelated information -- sometimes they do this on their own, more often they just need a little nudge in the form of socratic quesitoning to get there.

 

Monica

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Yes- my son is ready for D next year. I was going to push him that direction and take a year to get full speed. His latest argument was why three people can't be on the trampoline at the same time and used all sorts of examples of why they should be allowed to do that.

 

As far as the UG/LG question, my ds (K) is reading on a 2nd grade level and will most likely progress this year. He would be ready for some UG readings in 1st or most likely 2nd grade, BUT he doesn't have the maturity to handle the workload or the topics. He still needs basic information. He will just read more appropriate books to bump up his reading level, but history will stay at his grade level. Kids in early elementary really just need the time to work on the basics and have history as the "gravy". Keep it simple.

 

Beth

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