Math. ugh.

[springmama]

My 7 year old is in tears right now over math. No matter how many times I explain things to her, she can. not. retain. the information. I explain, explain and explain things.

 

I feel like I'm going to lose it. She has no idea I'm so frustrated, of course. She does know that I'm angry that she will not answer my questions truthfully.

 

She can add and subtract on a kindergarten level.

She can count by twos, 5s and 10.

She cannot tell me whether 68 is bigger than 86.

She cannot tell me what comes after 65 without counting all the way from 1.

She can't remember the value of a dime, nickel or quarter.

 

Honestly, she really can't do much.

 

I am beginning to suspect she has either OCD or anxiety disorder and I know she spends lots of time worrying about random odd things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. She's only half paying attention to the lesson when I am teaching.

 

In Kindergarten we started with Horizons but she hated it.

So, we tried Saxon- hated it.

MUS- she cried every single math lesson.

 

Finally I was so frustrated, I took her to the local Christian bookstore's homeschool section, handed her three math books and said "which one do you think you can do without crying?" I figured if I could get her to do the lesson without breaking down into a puddle, that was half the battle. But she's not retaining anything. She chose Horizsons and we started with the 1st grade book. We have just started the Horizons 1, book 2 and she's just not getting it.

 

I hate this. I want it to be fun. I want her to remember what I teach her. I am confused about why this is so hard.

 

What do I do? Load up on games and just spend all day playing with numbers in one form or another? Switch curriculum again? Supplement with another curriculum?

 

I am almost thinking we need to slow down, spend lots more time on each concept by doing lots of extra games, montessori activities, extra worksheets, etc. AND add another curriculum as a supplement, but start with that one on the K level as "fun" work at the end of our school day, just to be sure she has those basic concepts.

[Snickerdoodle]

 

What do I do?

 

From what little you posted, it sounds like she doesn't have a firm grip on place value.

 

Perhaps someone can suggest some materials that would be helpful in this regard.

[8filltheheart]

I would not recommend Horizons in this situation. It sounds like she might do better with a mastery program than spiral, but maybe not mastery to the degree of MUS.

 

You might want to incorporate a lot of visuals like a number chart, manipulatives like rods, etc.

 

I think that programs like Rod and Staff, Scott Foresman-Addison Wesley, (I think CLE is mastery), etc.

[In The Great White North]

I'd follow your gut feeling with this one:

I am almost thinking we need to slow down, spend lots more time on each concept by doing lots of extra games, montessori activities,

Make math a game, not work/"torture":

 

lots of manipulatives

"gnome" math

count everything (stairs, steps into the store, etc)

skipping/hopping/clapping/tossing beanbags while counting by 2's, 3's, etc

skipping/hopping/clapping/tossing beanbags while doing math facts

games with cards and dice

 

Dd could add/subtract/mutliply/divide "cookies" long before anything else. I would ask "If there are four of you and I give you each 6 cookies, how many cookies do I need to bring?" She could tell me 24, long before she would tell me what 6 x 4 was. She could also add up the Monopoly money and play Yahtzee.

 

She can add and subtract on a kindergarten level.

I didn't know there was any adding and subtracting in kindergarten. There certainly wasn't in my dc's (at three different Waldorf schools in three different states.) If she can add and subtract at all, she's at least at their first grade level.

 

She can't remember the value of a dime, nickel or quarter.

They did not do money or time til 3rd grade either.

 

I feel like I'm going to lose it. She has no idea I'm so frustrated, of course. She does know that I'm angry that she will not answer my questions truthfully.

Relax. She probably can tell you're stressed (kids usually can) and that will stress her, leading to more "puddles." She's not years behind. My dc were doing the same topics at 7, and have no problems with math now.

 

Maybe she's a kinesthetic learner or just hasn't learned to read well enough yet, and the whole book/workbook thing is frustrating her.

[OregonNative]

 

Relax. She probably can tell you're stressed (kids usually can) and that will stress her, leading to more "puddles." She's not years behind. My dc were doing the same topics at 7, and have no problems with math now.

 

Maybe she's a kinesthetic learner or just hasn't learned to read well enough yet, and the whole book/workbook thing is frustrating her.

:iagree:

[8filltheheart]

Relax. ....... She's not years behind. My dc were doing the same topics at 7, and have no problems with math now.

 

.

 

:iagree: completely. Horizons expects a lot out of the primary ages. Some kids just aren't there. It also moves quickly which is why I don't think it sounds like a match.

[1shortmomto4]

You have received some great ideas thus far. As a mom to a child that just doesn't seem to learn math the conventional way, I've had to make some adjustments and realize that they all get there, in their way when they are ready (which is hard if you have to take standardized testing, etc.). I think math concepts are probably just as difficult to understand as reading - a whole new ball game.

 

You could do a few things - go to the worldbook encyclopedia site (I used to have the link) and there is tells you what the typical first grader should know (or second or third, etc.). It lists those skills and you could then work from there on achieving those skills. She might be more of a visual/spatial learner (my ds is one) and I recently tried out the Destination Math that the homeschoolcoop offers - you can try it out for a whole month for free. I would recommend Course 1 although I think they might have even one before that - try them out. I would also check out lots of mathy books from the library - the Math Start books and read through one each week. Check out the suggestions on the Living Math website for books - you'd be surprised. I believe that you really need to teach to the child's learning style when it comes to math or you just go round in circles. She may still be young so the more gentle approach where she doesn't even realize she is working on math helps. You could set up a little store and practice money. I would not focus on drills and memorization. If you have that math book sitting around - look at the problems, sit down and talk through them - you be the scribe. Use counters as needed. Young kids need to see and feel at this age to make the connections. Also do a little searching on mastery and spiral (Horizon, CLE and Saxon) approaches to math to figure out whether your child works better. Math games are great, too.

 

Almost forgot - the MathTacular videos that Sonlight offers - awesome, awesome, awesome. They seem cheesy to us grown-ups but boy, the kids just engage with Justin and really understand the concepts.

 

Hope this helps, just a little.

Heidi

[1GirlTwinBoys]

What about trying BJU online? My DD 7 is doing it this year and it's working great. The lessons are 30 mins long, but my DD does enjoy the "theme" and seems to get a lot out of it. Sometimes having that visual component really does make a difference. I LOVE the way place value was introduced and it even made DD laugh. :)

 

BJU has a 30 day trial money back if you don't like it. It's 30 days from the time you order, not the time you receive and start using the program. Just a little FYI.

[MrsMe]

Oh...sounds so familiar. ((((Hugs)))).

My dd is 10 and is sooooo not math oriented. She's just 10 and we're doing BJU 3! In all honesty, I'm not sure why my kid needs to learn some of this BJU 3 even in 3rd grade! What the heck is the hurry? The so-called standards garbage?

 

She ended up being math phobic, but pulled out of it after understanding place value through MUS. I know MUS isn't working for you either, but I think it's finding the right fit, being unstressed and just finding other avenues to get her to understand.

 

She's only 7 and a lot of curriculums require (IMO) too much too soon. I don't feel kids need to learn to divide in grade 2! So I finally took it slower. My dd isn't an abstract/logical thinker in any way shape or form.

 

Back up, shorten the lessons to 15 minutes and just go where she takes you. Once she gets it, she'll make up for lost time. Sometimes another parent can explain something in the way you can't, even another sibling.

Edited September 30, 2010 by alilac

[deeinfl]

Put all your math curriculum away and purchase this book at Amazon.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00305GV1E/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0471042420&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1FQ0WZWR2EZ4H3DBS1Y8

 

I had to put all my programs away and use this book for my son in the first and part of the second grade because he was so frustrated no matter what I purchased or how I presented the math. I tried this book and it changed my math hating little boy to one that could not tolerate and look forward to these easy lessons with uncluttered pages. I spent no money on manipulatives, but made flash cards with index cards, and used dry beans for counters. This is a full 2 years of math for about 8 dollars and he addresses anything that will show up on tests. It really teaches the parent not to move on until the child has mastery of what was taught previously.

 

The truth is that most math books have way more than children are developmentally ready for.

 

Just in case the link doesn't come out right, it's called, Math for Your First and Second Grader, by Steve Slavin.

 

HTH,

 

Dee

Edited September 30, 2010 by deeinfl

[MrsMe]

Put all your math curriculum away and purchase this book at Amazon.

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00305GV1E/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0471042420&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1FQ0WZWR2EZ4H3DBS1Y8

 

 

The truth is that most math books have way more than children are developmentally ready for.

 

 

Dee

 

This looks great! And, I so agree with your statement!

[siloam]

I am almost thinking we need to slow down, spend lots more time on each concept by doing lots of extra games, montessori activities, extra worksheets, etc. AND add another curriculum as a supplement, but start with that one on the K level as "fun" work at the end of our school day, just to be sure she has those basic concepts.

 

That is what I would do. Have you looked into Right Start Math? The creator worked with montessori techniques as I understand it, so it is not montessori because it is teacher lead, but has that feel with the use of many manipulatives. If not the whole program they have a great games pack that can be added to any program.

 

With a 7yo it could all be developmental, and suddenly go away.

 

You might also be dealing with some sort of LD like dyscalculia (math dyslexia). But you need some more time before you can be sure that is what you are dealing with. Do either sides of your family have any learning disabilities present? Some are genetic, I can trace dyslexia through both my family and my dh's, and all my kids show some signs of it.

 

Right now I think you should go with your gut, back off and let her mature a little. It would be better for her to be "behind" in math and have a solid base than at grade level with gaps. All my kids are technically "behind" but still score well on standardized tests.

 

Heather

[christielee7278]

You might try the sample pages at Math Mammoth. Just click on FREE STUFF! at the top of the page and follow the instructions. We LOVE MM for so many different reasons, but one big reason is the way it makes a child think. I actually was just getting on the forums to brag on MM because it is working so well with my ds.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

OK-- another thread where I have not ready any replies- so again, forgive me if this is a duplicate. I HIGHLY recommend MUS. I had that same problem with my ds. He needed to see what everything meant. Also, get a good set of base 10 blocks. You had an example that she could not tell you what was bigger between 68 and 86 so that is when base 10 blocks would be gold. Take 8 10's and 6 1's, then 6 10's and 8 1's and let her SEE the math. I would do MUS along with another program (I am using a combo of MUS and Horizons and its working IMMENSLY well!) Now, the reason I am recommending another program is so that your dd will get a traditional scope and sequence. (later on chances are you will drop MUS when she gets the hang of it) Since you have horizons already, get her started with MUS and then start adding in Horizons again (but with the MUS blocks and Base 10 blocks) I would recommend either alpha or beta (depending on her skill level) You can find the MUS blocks sold used cheap in complete sets (on here alot as a matter of fact)

[springmama]

OK-- another thread where I have not ready any replies- so again, forgive me if this is a duplicate. I HIGHLY recommend MUS. I had that same problem with my ds. He needed to see what everything meant. Also, get a good set of base 10 blocks. You had an example that she could not tell you what was bigger between 68 and 86 so that is when base 10 blocks would be gold. Take 8 10's and 6 1's, then 6 10's and 8 1's and let her SEE the math. I would do MUS along with another program (I am using a combo of MUS and Horizons and its working IMMENSLY well!) Now, the reason I am recommending another program is so that your dd will get a traditional scope and sequence. (later on chances are you will drop MUS when she gets the hang of it) Since you have horizons already, get her started with MUS and then start adding in Horizons again (but with the MUS blocks and Base 10 blocks) I would recommend either alpha or beta (depending on her skill level) You can find the MUS blocks sold used cheap in complete sets (on here alot as a matter of fact)

 

This is what I would do, except that she hates MUS. Hates it. We tried it and ended up with Horizons.

 

Anyway, thanks to all of you for wonderful advice. I'm going to take lots of these ideas and come up with a plan. Does anyone know where I might find an online test that might tell me where she is per grade level? I know it's not necessary but it would make me feel better to know.

[Poke Salad Annie]

I always think of this article when someone expresses frustration with math:

 

http://cathyduffyreviews.com/math/working_without_text_article.htm

 

You could work through all the activities until your child is more comfortable. These ideas will help build math confidence, and can be very cheaply done.

[anneofalamo]

I would put the math books out of site.

Tell her, I love you to much and those books made me sad too...I think they are written for someone else.

Would you like to help me make cookies

 

I need you to fill this up 3 times with sugar...hand measuring cup..

count

1

2

3

 

etc...live life and enjoy math as it comes for a while....

it is everywhere

instead of math, play games big on numbers, trouble, etc~

coming from a mom of one who did algebra in 5th grade, and 3 others that math was a struggle...struggle, oh did I say struggle??

 

they are finally clicking and 11 and 12, but the clicks are more frequent and they are zooming thru Math U See...2 years at a time!!

[springmama]

Thank you. We will get through this.

 

I'm going to go have a good cry and get over myself and my silly preconceived notions of what homeschooling should look like.

 

Then I'm going to go play a game with my kids and have fun with numbers. After that we'll read something fun and do an art project. That will be our school day.

[jenlaw31]

I made alot of different file folder games for math covering counting money, telling time, fractions and measuring. She enjoys playing the games instead of doing book work all the time. She was having a really hard time with coin values as well and this helped, also using real money instead of fake.

 

As for counting, do you have a hundred chart that you display. I let my dd use that is she gets stuck on a number. It also works really well when you ask what comes after 68 or whatever. I know it sounds like cheating, but it gave my dd confidence to keep trying and eventally it clicked.

 

For the greater than concept, does she have trouble with the whole thing or just with the bigger numbers ?

 

I think Saxon is your best bet. I know it is boring and it isn't usually the kids favorite, but try to work through it. It is the most repetitive curriculum out there and that sounds like what your dd needs right now. Maybe you could have game days, and do Saxon a few times a week to give her a break.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

This is what I would do, except that she hates MUS. Hates it. We tried it and ended up with Horizons.

 

Anyway, thanks to all of you for wonderful advice. I'm going to take lots of these ideas and come up with a plan. Does anyone know where I might find an online test that might tell me where she is per grade level? I know it's not necessary but it would make me feel better to know.

 

 

What is it about MUS that she didnt like? Was it the blocks? The repetition? Do you think the base 10 blocks would work? Have you tried any computer games? Math Blaster? Coolmath.com stuff like that?

 

Otherwise, do you think you could make a "program" that would follow a 1st grade scope and sequence? (be creative with art and such) here is a good 1st grade (or 2nd? I forgot what grade she is in) scope and sequence. When you do measuring, measure stull in the house, fractions- bake something, KWIM?

[livingnlearning]

I remember going through days and stages like that with my daughter at about that age. It was hard on both of us and I doubted myself so much... I opted to just put the math away for a while and then summer break came around. Then when we started school up again it was as if she had been studying the entire break-she got it all the first time, confident, forward and correct!

 

I've noticed that with both of my kids-DS had started cursive writing in 3rd grade and was having a horrible time with it. That was his last year in PS and he had enough catching up to do that I told him I didn't care how he wrote, just write! At the end of that school year at home he decided he wanted to write in cursive and taught himself in a matter of days. Done.

 

Sometimes I so think that they learn by leaps and bounds, when it really isn't coming along at all I've found putting it on the shelf for a while usually results in a burst of progress at a later date. Of course you can't do that indefinitely but maybe you can explore some alternatives and give her a math break for a few days while you figure it out.

 

Hang in there-neither of you are unique in this!

[Karen in CO]

My 7 year old is in tears right now over math. No matter how many times I explain things to her, she can. not. retain. the information. I explain, explain and explain things.

 

She can add and subtract on a kindergarten level.

She can count by twos, 5s and 10.

She cannot tell me whether 68 is bigger than 86.

She cannot tell me what comes after 65 without counting all the way from 1.

She can't remember the value of a dime, nickel or quarter.

 

Honestly, she really can't do much.

 

I am beginning to suspect she has either OCD or anxiety disorder and I know she spends lots of time worrying about random odd things that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about. She's only half paying attention to the lesson when I am teaching.

 

In Kindergarten we started with Horizons but she hated it.

So, we tried Saxon- hated it.

MUS- she cried every single math lesson.

 

Finally I was so frustrated, I took her to the local Christian bookstore's homeschool section, handed her three math books and said "which one do you think you can do without crying?" I figured if I could get her to do the lesson without breaking down into a puddle, that was half the battle. But she's not retaining anything. She chose Horizsons and we started with the 1st grade book. We have just started the Horizons 1, book 2 and she's just not getting it.

 

I hate this. I want it to be fun. I want her to remember what I teach her. I am confused about why this is so hard.

 

What do I do? Load up on games and just spend all day playing with numbers in one form or another? Switch curriculum again? Supplement with another curriculum?

 

I am almost thinking we need to slow down, spend lots more time on each concept by doing lots of extra games, montessori activities, extra worksheets, etc. AND add another curriculum as a supplement, but start with that one on the K level as "fun" work at the end of our school day, just to be sure she has those basic concepts.

 

 

I would back off formal math for a while. Seriously. And I know, I was right there. I took some time off, read some books on teachng math - Math Games by Peggy Kaye and La Ping Ma's book on knowing and understanding math were eye-opening. While I was doing that, I played things like Chutes and Ladders with my dd. It is a great math game. Monopoly Jr is terrific. Anything that has you using numbers in a non-threatening way. We made up games with dice that we could play outside. We baked lots of cookies and brownies. We read a bunch of those mathy early readers (the living math site was a great resource).

 

My dd did not get "further behind" while we skipped math. She is even "ahead" a little now.

[Guest]

I think backing up and slowing down are terrific ideas, as are all the suggestions to use real-life materials and manipulatives. My dd had fairly severe dysgraphia as a young child, so we did math without much writing for a number of years. Some things that were wonderful:

 

Peggy Kaye's Games For Math. This takes the pressure off entirely, presenting math concepts in game form. You use common materials like chalk, crayons, cups, and dice. The child gets to hop, jump, throw or drop coins into the cups, build things, use pattern blocks, etc. One of dd's favorite games for years was the one called "Rainbow Math."

 

Marilyn Burns is the math teacher we should all have had! Her math replacement units are series of lessons around various concepts arranged by grade level, and all begin or incorporate some kind of manipulatives and/or activities. All emphasize conceptual understanding BEFORE the child is asked to do more abstract, written work. Some use picture books -- the Math Through Literature series. There are no textbooks or workbooks. You just begin with materials, talking, moving around, building, and gradually move to writing things down. Once the child understands the concept, you can practice computations with Peggy Kaye's games.

 

It sounds as though the place value books would be really helpful for your dd.

 

http://www.mathsolutions.com -- It's a treasure.

 

One of the things I did for my dd, several times, was make a "Personal Numbers" book. This puts meaning to numbers by associating them with things the child cares about or embodies:

 

--her age

--her height -- have her draw a picture of herself, measure herself and cut a string the same length as her height, and tape it into the booklet

--how many teeth she's lost -- keep a simple graph

--trace around her foot and write down her shoe size.

--how many pancakes (or cookies, or whatever) she can eat at a sitting

--how many people in the family have eyes of various colors, or hair color, or wear glasses, etc. Again, you can make simple charts with pictures.

--if you have a pet, how big the pet is, how much it weighs, etc.

--dress size

--counts of favorite collections, be they rocks or dolls or stuffed animals or books. Graph them in a simple bar graph so she can compare quantities visually.

--how many days until her birthday, or Christmas, or whatever holiday she loves best

--how many years old she is; how many months old; how many days old

--if you have her baby records, chart her changes in height and weight as she grew, with pictures or drawings she makes alongside

--anything else you can possibly think of to make numbers concrete and meaningful, and visual

[oraetstudia]

Have your child try the sample lesson for the lowest level of Teaching Textbooks. My just-turned eight year old has hated math and done very poorly with it from the beginning. What has worked for her siblings did not work for her, but I got TT Level 3 for her this year and she's doing great. Although she still is slow to catch on, she's catching on much better than with anything else we've ever tried and she told someone the other day that math is her favorite subject.

[Dolphin]

I got our base 10 set at Lakeshore as it also came with a place value chart

 

http://www.lakeshorelearning.com/seo/ca|searchResults~~p|2534374302101183~~.jsp

 

We play with that a lot. Even at third grade it really helps.

 

The other thing we have are the teddy bear counters and we sorted them by color and made patterns when ds was younger. I would try doing some games. One thing I read somewhere is that it is easier to remember when doing an activity. Get a bean bag say 1+1 and throw it to your daughter, she will say 2 and throw it back. I also read that you can do a cake walk. put math problems on index cards and put them in a circle. Turn on music and have her walk. When she stops she answers the question and then picks up the card if it is right. If she gets it wrong you tell her the answer. When she has all the cards she can get a reward.

 

I hope that helps. Good luck. She will get it. Oh, and with the money. Just start telling her what you are doing when you are buying things, try to use cash a little more. Then start letting her buy her own thing. We used to go to Starbucks once a week and my son could get a kids steamer or hot chocolate. I would give him the $2bucks. He would buy it himself. If he could tell me the value of every coin returned to him, and answer 1 amount I would make the coins into, he got to keep the change. He learnt the values pretty quick

[MerryAtHope]

I think your idea to slow down and play lots of games, do more activities with the concepts etc... is a great idea. I use Horizons, but a level below grade level (and my kids still test well in math). It really is ahead.

 

I had my daughter do Horizons 1 over 2 years (1st and 2nd grade) and let her just play with manipulatives every other day. Any time she didn't get something, we would build it with base 10 blocks or cuisenaire rods or counting bears or something.

 

Hang in there! Merry :-)

[nova mama]

:grouphug:

 

I feel your pain. Sometimes DD6 goes from 0 to tears in 2 seconds, and sometimes we're high-fiving because she's figuring it out. I'll tell you as I'm telling myself, take a deep breath. Try manipulatives (maybe an abacus?) and fun worksheets. Point out numbers while riding around. I taped pictures of the coins and their values in her supply box. I don't know much about the various math curricula, but I would not recommend adding one. That doesn't really seem to be the issue, and it might be too stressful at this point.

 

Now I'm going back through this thread to visit all the helpful-looking links!

 

Again, :grouphug:

[Mommy22alyns]

I really highly recommend Right Start math. We ran into some major math problems when Becca was 5 and backed up to RS A. She has gotten so much better at math, it's just amazing. RS also has plenty of games.

[Devotional Soul]

Check out Gnomes and Gnumbers. It's Waldorf style math gnomes stories for free online. There's even printable base ten cards. My boys love to hear these stories again and again.

 

Active Arithmetic is another book to consider.

 

If Rightstart is too expensive, you can get Activities For The AlAbacus for $20 and the RS abacus for $10 at Rainbow Resource. I've found the abacus to be very helpful for math.

 

CLE is spiral and has tons of review, but the flashcards and speed drills might be not a good fit.

 

Math Mammoth has cheap downloads, you could try out the place value one for under $5.

 

There's also McRuffy math, which may be more fun for her, but maybe not enough review.

 

Best wishes!

[woolybear]

I'm having wonderful success with Math Made Meaningful (not the same as Making Math Meaningful) with my 7 yo. Right now we are just working through very simple concepts--but he immediately "got it". It uses cuisenaire rods and will transition nicely to something like Miquon, but I'm not sure about other programs.