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Would you have said something?


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This last Sunday we had our church service in a large grassy field by the YMCA as an outreach. Two college students had brightly decorated hoola hoops with them which I thought would be shared with the younger kids present. During the worship, however, the female student danced with the hoop the entire time and it was a bit...um...interesting. The way she moved her body reminded me more of something one would find in a nightclub, plus her shirt was a bit short and her jeans a bit low-riding so that made it more interesting. All eyes were on her despite attempts to look forward and focus on the worship. It was such a distraction and I found myself growing more angry with each song. Afterward we were told that the hoops were not for kids to play with but we could buy one for our kids.

 

So two questions:

 

1. Would you have said something to this girl or just let her dancing go?

 

2. Was it inappropriate for them to bring something to sell to church?

 

They are regular attendees so it isn't as though they were just visiting for the day.

 

I appreciate any input as I've not been able to let this go in my mind.

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Who hoolahoops during worship service? :001_huh:I mean, wow. Your church must be really, um, modern.??:confused: I think I would have had to say something to the pastor or someone. Gosh...how...bizarre.:001_huh::confused:

 

My pastor sells his farm fresh eggs (which we GIVE AWAY to friends) at church. We won't go into what I think of people selling things at church.:glare:

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I might not have been too bothered about this in the past, but now that I have an adolescent boy--I have a whole different take on it.

 

Yuck. And yes, I'm embarrassed for her and I realize she is young and entitled to make mistakes, but not at the expense of the innocence of the boys in the audience at CHURCH. Some other public place, maybe--church, no way.

 

Yes, I'd speak to someone. As far as the hula hoop sale goes, I don't see that as a big deal.

 

ETA- I just reread and saw that it was a church service being held in a field. I still think it is inappropriate, but I guess since it was a public place it is little less offensive than I rhought. My mistake!

 

Seriously though, is it just me--or did others become extremely offended by this kind of thing when their boys reached puberty? I am becoming so frustrated with modesty issues--I feel like we can't even go to the library without him seeing a girl's butt cheeks poking out of her shorts. Cold weather--please hurry up!!!!!!!

Edited by homeschoolally
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I have seen girls doing a similar hula hoop dance at various festivals in our region. Very sensual and suggestive. Not appropriate at all for church. I'm a bit confused, is the girl a member of your church and did the pastor invite her to hula hoop during the service? If so, then speak to him about your concerns.

 

If she was just some college girl who accidentally or intentionally set up next to a church service in the park, as long as it is public property there's not much you could do. Other than steer clear of public property for future events if you don't want to experience this kind of thing.

 

Regarding the sale of the hoops, did she bring extras for sale or did she just have those belonging to her and told the kids they could go buy some elsewhere? I can see not being willing to let a bunch of kids bend her personal property if they meant something special to her, and telling them where they could get the same type was kind.

 

However, if she had ample stock on hand and was planning to sell them to the congregants' children, that wouldn't fly with me. Besides, based on what you described and what I've seen, it was the kind of routine that would be more appropriate in the privacy of one's home/bedroom and not really geared toward the typical 6yo.

 

So regarding saying something...depends on who she was and whether she was invited or on public property. I would say something to the pastor. What I have seen would fall more into the category of causing a brother to stumble than a joyful expression of faith.

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I know there are hoops out there that are quite expensive, usually used for expressive dance, that are not hula hoops meant for kids to play with. They are weighted and wrapped as a custom order. I don't think I would have said anything despite not thinking it was the best choice for worship/church.

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This last Sunday we had our church service in a large grassy field by the YMCA as an outreach. Two college students had brightly decorated hoola hoops with them which I thought would be shared with the younger kids present. During the worship, however, the female student danced with the hoop the entire time and it was a bit...um...interesting. The way she moved her body reminded me more of something one would find in a nightclub, plus her shirt was a bit short and her jeans a bit low-riding so that made it more interesting. All eyes were on her despite attempts to look forward and focus on the worship. It was such a distraction and I found myself growing more angry with each song. Afterward we were told that the hoops were not for kids to play with but we could buy one for our kids.

 

Was her dance part of the worship service or something she was doing on her own?

 

I would not say anything to the girl, either way. Either way, I might talk to the pastor about keeping how to keep distractions to a minimum when you have services in a public place. If she was invited to dance, I don't know.

 

I agree with the other poster that those types of hula hoops are not for kids to play with and I don't blame the girl for not handing over her property.

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Was her dance part of the worship service or something she was doing on her own?

 

She was on her own, toward the back of the crowd yet still very visable. Had this been a planned part of the worship service we would have left right then and there and not gone back to the church (which is EV Free - not "modern").

 

Regarding the sale of the hoops, did she bring extras for sale or did she just have those belonging to her and told the kids they could go buy some elsewhere? I can see not being willing to let a bunch of kids bend her personal property if they meant something special to her, and telling them where they could get the same type was kind.

 

She brought about 8 hoops and told my dh that she and her boyfriend are "starving college students" (she didn't look starving, lol) who just need to make a few bucks by selling the hoops.

 

Seriously though, is it just me--or did others become extremely offended by this kind of thing when their boys reached puberty? I am becoming so frustrated with modesty issues--I feel like we can't even go to the library without him seeing a girl's butt cheeks poking out of her shorts. Cold weather--please hurry up!!!!!!!
I was embarrassed for my ds and my dh as well as every other male present. I was angry that I couldn't sit through worship without this literally in our faces.

 

You ladies are right in that we should speak to the pastor and not the girl. Hopefully he will have a heart to listen...

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She was on her own, toward the back of the crowd yet still very visable. Had this been a planned part of the worship service we would have left right then and there and not gone back to the church (which is EV Free - not "modern").

 

She brought about 8 hoops and told my dh that she and her boyfriend are "starving college students" (she didn't look starving, lol) who just need to make a few bucks by selling the hoops.

 

I was embarrassed for my ds and my dh as well as every other male present. I was angry that I couldn't sit through worship without this literally in our faces.

 

You ladies are right in that we should speak to the pastor and not the girl. Hopefully he will have a heart to listen...

 

I'm haveing a difficult part with the bolded part, as compared to your first statement of "all" eyes being on her.

 

This really sounds like your personal offence, you can talk to your pastor. My response would be something along the lines of "I'm so thankful she felt safe enough to come here. Doesn't it make you feel closer to Jesus, who sat with the prostitues and tax collectors?"

 

Okay let the stoneing begin. ;)

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I'm haveing a difficult part with the bolded part, as compared to your first statement of "all" eyes being on her.

 

 

The way the service was set up was with a stage up front but chairs set up in a huge semi-circle; it wasn't set up as typical rows with everyone facing forward. This was nice in that everyone could see pretty much everyone else yet it definitely provided the girl with an audience. Envision a huge "U" shape with the girl at the bottom of the "U" where everyone not only at the bottom but both sides of the "U" could see her. Hope that made sense.

 

My response would be something along the lines of "I'm so thankful she felt safe enough to come here. Doesn't it make you feel closer to Jesus, who sat with the prostitues and tax collectors?"

 

Okay let the stoneing begin.

I appreciate you sharing this because this is the thinking I was trying (unsuccessfully) to get to. I tried during the service to push aside my initial reaction, to view the girl in the light you do. I don't know...truly I am all mixed up as to how to feel about this. I struggle with rejoicing that she was even there and being upset at how she was there and what she was doing. I struggle with the memory of seeing my dc's eyes drawn to her no matter how hard they tried to not watch. I struggle with feeling that the worship was turned into a one-girl show and it wasn't a show I wanted the males in my family to witness.
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Okay...first, sometimes weird things (and weird people) happen at church. I remember one time a very dirty, smelly homeless lady came into our church, and at the end of the service, she came up and wanted my Dad (pastor) to pray for her. He was a *lay on hands* type of guy, BUT he said later that he could actually see the lice crawling through her short hair. He touched her head as lightly as possible, and prayed for her anyway. He was a clean freak, so I'm sure that was really hard for him. He didn't ask her to leave, and would have been upset with anyone who did. One thing my parents taught me was that church was for the broken moreso than the whole. Tolerance is key to Christianity. I'm sure Mary Magdalene made quite an impression (and caused a lot of distraction) when she cried on Jesus' feet and dried them off with her hair. The occasional "distraction" is a lesson in tolerance, and should be met with graciousness and possibly a sense of humor, for good measure.

 

That said: my pastor would politely (and privately) ask that the hula hoops stay at home next time, and probably mention that solicitation isn't allowed. I would wait and see if it happens again, and if it does, casually mention to the pastor [with a good-humored smile] that the worship service was fantastic, but that the hula hoops were a little distracting. :) I'd say that a third time wouldn't be a charm, and would probably be a deal breaker about where I attended church. :D

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\

 

My pastor sells his farm fresh eggs (which we GIVE AWAY to friends) at church. :glare:

Is your pastor a little hard up for money ? Maybe he needs a raise.

I guess it's getting to late for me to be on here, because now some of the things I am reading are striking me as being really funny, even the thought of your pastor selling his eggs at church. :lol:

Maybe you all need to have a big breakfast at church with a lot of fried eggs and bacon. :lol:

I don't think I would be offended by the pastor selling his eggs. It may be something he enjoys doing and gets some satisfaction out of. But seriously, if he needs the money, maybe his pay should be evaluated, and hopefully the church can afford to give him a raise if he is currently a underpaid.

Edited by Miss Sherry
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The girl dancing at church reminds me of something that happened at a church we went to several years ago before we moved.

There was a lady who we sometimes sat behind who would regularly move to the music in a way that looked somewhat sensual, not in an attractive way at all.

I didn't realize how much this disturbed my husband until after he told me that he had had a nightmare about her dancing. The first time I heard him say anything about it was when he told me about the nightmare. I remembered thinking her dancing was, well, a little disturbing, but I had not said anything to him about it.

If we had continued going to that church, I'm sure we would have wanted to avoid sitting behind her. :lol:

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I would have found it distracting, but I wouldn't have said anything to her, unless she were my own daughter, and then it would have been a private conversation, as in , come to the bathroom, we need to talk.

 

Unless it happens again, I think you should let it go. I'm thinking the hoola hoops were only there because you were outdoors.

If it continues to happen, maybe someone that has a good rapport with her could say something to her.

I think a certain amount of dancing is one thing,and certainly is not automatically sensual, but obviously displaying oneself in a sensual way during a worship service is out of line. For a christian anyway.

But keep in mind, not everyone who attends church is a christian. She may not have a clue about moral standards and why it would be inappropriate to behave that way during a time of worship. It can be surprising how clueless some people are ( or maybe they choose to be clueless - I don't know). I do believe that many young girls are very ignorant about how they effect the opposite sex, but college age seems to be a little old for that.

I wonder if she was so bent on selling the hoola hoops that she thought this would be a good advertisement for them. But it is so rude, I think, to hijack a worship service for that kind of thing. I hope that's not what she had in mind.

I know we like to think that everyone has good motives about everything, but the reality is, people's sin nature sticks way out sometimes.

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I'm going to go against the crowd here, please do not go straight to your pastor on this.

 

Matthew 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

It's not your pastor's job to police services, especially in non typical settings. What could he do about it now, except confront her on your behalf? You need to talk to her first, then if that is not received go back to her with 1 or 2 other church members. Only if that fails should you bring it to your pastor. If you aren't willing to do the first 2 steps, then you shouldn't do the third.

 

Back to your original question- both things were weird. I probably wouldn't say anything this time, but if either issues came up again, I would definitely confront her.

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1.) I wouldn't have said anything, but I would have been suprised that church leadership didn't.

 

2.) It is wrong to sell things in church. As Rosie said, Jesus was pretty explicit on this issue. Personally, I don't even go in for the churches that set up Starbucks in the hall.

 

Anyway, it sounds like she is young and foolish. She needs to be loved, and it is not loving to let her continue to think that this is acceptable. Sometimes the more loving thing to do is to face an issue rather than to just be glad that someone is in church at all, imho. I think Paul's letters are pretty clear that we aren't supposed to "live and let live" with other believers. If you feel like you can keep your own concerns for your family out of the discussion, you could talk to her. If not, I would ask someone in church leadership what the best thing to do was. They obviously saw it, too, so they don't have to say that you complained about it.

 

The problem isn't the display in church. The problem is the girl who doesn't know better and needs guidance.

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My pastor sells his farm fresh eggs (which we GIVE AWAY to friends) at church. We won't go into what I think of people selling things at church.:glare:

 

Hmm. We sell eggs, and people at church kept asking for them. For a while we left coffee hour four times every week to walk out to our car and get eggs out of the cooler for people, which made supervising the kids very difficult when only one of us was there. Finally, we asked the minister if we could just leave the cooler under the coat rack. We don't advertise, but people can collect their eggs themselves. We regularly donate eggs for raffles and other things.

 

I can't afford to give mine away. Organic feed is $25 for a 50# bag. Even with the purchases, we still take a loss. The main reason it works is b/c sustainability of food supply/locavorism both fit within the principles of our church.

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I wouldn't have said anything to the young woman. I can't even imagine how that conversation would go? Your dancing is turning my son, husband, uncle, grandfather on and I want you to stop? I can't think of any way for that to go well.

 

I understand the concept of modesty, lust and lure. But I think the ultimate responsibility is with the person. If your male family members were not paying attention to the services then I would speak to them about the lust in their hearts and the role of women in their lives. There will always be temptation, even at church. One of my older son's found the most desirable, beautiful part of a woman to him, was the curve of her neck when her hair was up. There are some men who find feet to be a sensual object. Women can be a temptation even if they wear a sack and walk in bound feet with tiny steps. It is possible, even probable that this young woman was feeling the Holy Spirit in her dance and just looking like she looks it came across as sensual when she was just being herself. Why should she be shamed? I remember being admonished for the way I walked as a young woman. I was also akin to evil because I had breasts at a young age, and you know those things mean that a girl is f-a-s-t. (whispered among some of the other women)

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One of the significant tenants of the Christian faith is that we are to be concerned about the welfare of our Christian brothers and sisters. For that reason, it is inappropriate for a girl to display herself in a manner that would obviously be enticing for a man and would cause him to lust after her.

 

Certainly it is the man's responsibility to keep himself under control and not lose it if he sees a particularly attractive neck or ankle or whatever. However, women have to take some responsibility for our actions also. And although gyrating in a slow, circular motion repeatedly may have been an expression of religious fervor, there is no way to deny that it also has sexual connotation in our society. This girl may have been ignorant of why her behavior was wrong in a church setting, but I doubt she was unaware of the impact on men. If she had been doing these hoola hoop dances long enough to be proficient at them, I'm sure some guy somewhere would have commented and tipped her off to the thoughts it evoked.

 

But the fact is that regardless of the circumstances and reasons, such behavior does not belong in a church setting. Mary Magdalene probably didn't perform the dance of the 7 veils shortly after tending to Jesus' feet. This is not about rights, this is about worshipping God and not providing distraction during the service.

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The way the service was set up was with a stage up front but chairs set up in a huge semi-circle; it wasn't set up as typical rows with everyone facing forward. This was nice in that everyone could see pretty much everyone else yet it definitely provided the girl with an audience. Envision a huge "U" shape with the girl at the bottom of the "U" where everyone not only at the bottom but both sides of the "U" could see her. Hope that made sense.

 

I appreciate you sharing this because this is the thinking I was trying (unsuccessfully) to get to. I tried during the service to push aside my initial reaction, to view the girl in the light you do. I don't know...truly I am all mixed up as to how to feel about this. I struggle with rejoicing that she was even there and being upset at how she was there and what she was doing. I struggle with the memory of seeing my dc's eyes drawn to her no matter how hard they tried to not watch. I struggle with feeling that the worship was turned into a one-girl show and it wasn't a show I wanted the males in my family to witness.

 

 

Your response was very gracious and I really appreciate that. Our Sr. Pastor has a saying at our church..."It doesn't take a genius to look on the outside of a person and see their faults, but it does take real love to see whats inside and call it out."

 

I can imagine it was frustrateing for you. I had a similar situation at our church awhile back with 2 women who sang on the worship team. One thought the other dressed to sensually to be on the team. She made comments to me like "It's not right for my dh to have to look @ that when he's trying to worship." She flat out said I needed to do something about it, because this woman was embarressing herself. My response was manifold. No, I wouldn't, because we are a church that embraces both diversity in tastes and people can serve even if they are at very different places of "spiritual maturity" (a phrase I really dislike since were all supposed to be like kids ;)) Also, she was more than welcome to sit in another part of the sanctuary. And most importantly, she was the one who felt strongly about it, noticed it, and was concerned with her embarressing herself...so I suggested she should be the one to go to her about this, but only if she could with love, grace and the ultimate goal of building her up more, than tearing her down. Hope that made sense :001_smile:.

 

Just thought I would add that I have a boy who's eye is drawn to beautiful women. This used to concern me more, but now I'm kinda thankful for it. He has good taste, he's artisitic in nature, appreciates beauty...yes even sensual beauty. I refuse to make a big deal about it, because It's not something I want him to hide from me or his dad, yes it has it's potential dangers..but we are working on being open and non-shaming now, so we will be in a place to bring wisdom alongside.

 

Again, hope that helps! and sorry if last nights post was a bit snarky! As a pw this issues can be very difficult. This hula girl is exactly the kind of person I want to love on, I also want to give God the space and time to work on her heart and convictions. It is difficult when other members, that you love, maybe loose sight of that and what the ultimate goal is.

 

If I were you, this young woman would become very dear to me, not to get her to change right away (that's Gods job) but just to get to know her, understand her...and then should the oppertunity present itself...gently guide her.

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To me, the key words in the OP are that they are "regular attenders."

 

Sounds like some shepherding is in order. Do you know the family well? Well enough to know whether the parent has any concern about the dd's behavior?

 

From the way you describe the set-up, I don't think there's any need to notify the pastor. Sounds like she was directly in his sightline!

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One of the significant tenants of the Christian faith is that we are to be concerned about the welfare of our Christian brothers and sisters. For that reason, it is inappropriate for a girl to display herself in a manner that would obviously be enticing for a man and would cause him to lust after her.

 

Certainly it is the man's responsibility to keep himself under control and not lose it if he sees a particularly attractive neck or ankle or whatever. However, women have to take some responsibility for our actions also. And although gyrating in a slow, circular motion repeatedly may have been an expression of religious fervor, there is no way to deny that it also has sexual connotation in our society. This girl may have been ignorant of why her behavior was wrong in a church setting, but I doubt she was unaware of the impact on men. If she had been doing these hoola hoop dances long enough to be proficient at them, I'm sure some guy somewhere would have commented and tipped her off to the thoughts it evoked.

 

But the fact is that regardless of the circumstances and reasons, such behavior does not belong in a church setting. Mary Magdalene probably didn't perform the dance of the 7 veils shortly after tending to Jesus' feet. This is not about rights, this is about worshipping God and not providing distraction during the service.

 

 

But the concern is there for Brothers and Sisters. Not just the brothers. Why not just censor all hoola hoops for everyone and just be done with it. Because seriously it requires circular motion whether it is performed by a boy or girl, young or old, thick or thin. The problem is that she was young and has an attractive body. That is what made it eye catching. How is shaming this young woman for her youth and attractiveness going to bring her closer to God? I also question what the woman could possibly say to her. If you would say something to her, what would you say, that wouldn't just make you seem jealous and petty? If God put it on your heart to counsel this young woman and you were positive it wasn't out of your own insecurities, would you really need to check in here to see if your feelings were valid? Is there any way to approach her without her feeling shamed and unacceptable to her church family?

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But the concern is there for Brothers and Sisters. Not just the brothers. Why not just censor all hoola hoops for everyone and just be done with it.

 

 

How did you know what I really wanted to write!:D I guess all churches are different but I'm all for censoring hula hoops, frisbees, beach balls, or any other distracting items of entertainment during services. Call me an old stick in the mud, if you must... It's one thing to have these items at the church picnic or during an outside youth group gathering, but seriously, during a main service, really???? Even one outside????

 

I don't want to see a young girl, old girl, grey-headed granny, little boy, muscle bound twentysomething, or old geezer hopping up during the middle of the service and distracting me or the preacher. That's one of the reasons why we chose a fairly conservative church, because I know I have difficulty centering my mind for worship and I do best with fewer distractions.

 

And if you think I'm bad, some of our friends are Quakers (no pun intended), and they have completely silent worship services to facilitate focus on worship. No hula hoops on young or old there either.;)

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Darling Simka. If I were to ever consider a church, I would high-tail it to your dh's. Your are light, my dear. Whenever I get discouraged about the petty/shaming/judging/nasty world that is supposedly God's, i think about my loving mother (who quite often disagrees with what she gently terms 'legalism' in her fellow church members), and you. I don't say that lightly.

 

thought the other dressed to sensually to be on the team. She made comments to me like "It's not right for my dh to have to look @ that when he's trying to worship." She flat out said I needed to do something about it, because this woman was embarressing herself. My response was manifold. No, I wouldn't, because we are a church that embraces both diversity in tastes and people can serve even if they are at very different places of "spiritual maturity" (a phrase I really dislike since were all supposed to be like kids ;)) Also, she was more than welcome to sit in another part of the sanctuary. And most importantly, she was the one who felt strongly about it, noticed it, and was concerned with her embarressing herself...so I suggested she should be the one to go to her about this, but only if she could with love, grace and the ultimate goal of building her up more, than tearing her down. Hope that made sense :001_smile:.

 

Just thought I would add that I have a boy who's eye is drawn to beautiful women. This used to concern me more, but now I'm kinda thankful for it. He has good taste, he's artisitic in nature, appreciates beauty...yes even sensual beauty. I refuse to make a big deal about it, because It's not something I want him to hide from me or his dad, yes it has it's potential dangers..but we are working on being open and non-shaming now, so we will be in a place to bring wisdom alongside.

 

.

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I'm going to go against the crowd here, please do not go straight to your pastor on this.

 

Matthew 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

It's not your pastor's job to police services, especially in non typical settings. What could he do about it now, except confront her on your behalf? You need to talk to her first, then if that is not received go back to her with 1 or 2 other church members. Only if that fails should you bring it to your pastor. If you aren't willing to do the first 2 steps, then you shouldn't do the third.

 

Back to your original question- both things were weird. I probably wouldn't say anything this time, but if either issues came up again, I would definitely confront her.

Yes, this is true. We do need to remember this scripture passage. If we do things out of order, in light of this scripture, than we are not responding correctly,in a scriptural sense. I think it would be much kinder for a lady in the church to speak to the young women than for someone to speak to the pastor. But it may never happen again, considering it was something that happened outdoors.

 

I don't think the only issue here is about the sensual dancing and selling hoola hoops at church.

I think the lack of reverence and lack of respect for worship is also an issue. I'm thinking that since this young women attends the church regularly and is an adult it seems reasonable to expect her behavior to be reverent and respectful, as a christian.

I think she needs some mentoring from a woman in the church who is much more mature than her, not just a reprimand about the one incident.

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1. Probably not, because the preacher should have.

 

I agree completely.

 

2. I don't think Jesus was big on setting up shop in church, from memory.

 

This made me LOL.

 

That's about as inappropriate as you can get without going R rated, isn't it?

Rosie

 

Again, I 100% agree! It was wholly inappropriate and someone should have stopped her.

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Well, thinking again about this particular passage, I am not so sure that the incident with the young women is a sin specifically "against" the OP. So, as far as this particular passage is concerned, I am not sure that the OP needs to approach the young women personally, as she should in a personal offense purposely directed against her. I think it would be OK for someone else to approach the girl ( if it is even necessary -if she continues to be this type of distraction in services ). It seems to me that someone with a rapport with the girl should approach her, if anyone does at this time. I don't think it has to be the Pastor. I think it's preferable that it be a woman who is gifted in communicating graciously. I do agree that we need to follow scripture, I am just not convinced that this passage is requiring the OP to personally approach the young women because I don't think the young women was doing anything purposely directed against the OP. Whether or not what the young women did could be called a sin or offense or not in general and how to handle that is another issue and other scriptures would apply.

I am just not convinced that the OP is being required by this scripture to be the one from the church (many were present when this happened) to approach the girl.

 

 

I'm going to go against the crowd here, please do not go straight to your pastor on this.

 

Matthew 18:15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[c] 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

It's not your pastor's job to police services, especially in non typical settings. What could he do about it now, except confront her on your behalf? You need to talk to her first, then if that is not received go back to her with 1 or 2 other church members. Only if that fails should you bring it to your pastor. If you aren't willing to do the first 2 steps, then you shouldn't do the third.

 

Back to your original question- both things were weird. I probably wouldn't say anything this time, but if either issues came up again, I would definitely confront her.

Edited by Miss Sherry
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Well, thinking again about this particular passage, I am not so sure that the incident with the young women is a sin specifically "against" the OP. So, as far as this particular passage is concerned, I am not sure that the OP needs to approach the young women personally, as she should in a personal offense purposely directed against her.

 

This is why I think someone on the church staff (not necessarily the head pastor) should approach her. This was something that had to do with having an orderly service. You can't have an orderly service when someone is having a side show.

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This is why I think someone on the church staff (not necessarily the head pastor) should approach her. This was something that had to do with having an orderly service. You can't have an orderly service when someone is having a side show.

No, you can't, can you. This shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps it won't happen again though, when they have their services indoors.

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Your response was very gracious and I really appreciate that. Our Sr. Pastor has a saying at our church..."It doesn't take a genius to look on the outside of a person and see their faults, but it does take real love to see whats inside and call it out."

 

I can imagine it was frustrateing for you. I had a similar situation at our church awhile back with 2 women who sang on the worship team. One thought the other dressed to sensually to be on the team. She made comments to me like "It's not right for my dh to have to look @ that when he's trying to worship." She flat out said I needed to do something about it, because this woman was embarressing herself. My response was manifold. No, I wouldn't, because we are a church that embraces both diversity in tastes and people can serve even if they are at very different places of "spiritual maturity" (a phrase I really dislike since were all supposed to be like kids ;)) Also, she was more than welcome to sit in another part of the sanctuary. And most importantly, she was the one who felt strongly about it, noticed it, and was concerned with her embarressing herself...so I suggested she should be the one to go to her about this, but only if she could with love, grace and the ultimate goal of building her up more, than tearing her down. Hope that made sense :001_smile:.

 

Just thought I would add that I have a boy who's eye is drawn to beautiful women. This used to concern me more, but now I'm kinda thankful for it. He has good taste, he's artisitic in nature, appreciates beauty...yes even sensual beauty. I refuse to make a big deal about it, because It's not something I want him to hide from me or his dad, yes it has it's potential dangers..but we are working on being open and non-shaming now, so we will be in a place to bring wisdom alongside.

 

Again, hope that helps! and sorry if last nights post was a bit snarky! As a pw this issues can be very difficult. This hula girl is exactly the kind of person I want to love on, I also want to give God the space and time to work on her heart and convictions. It is difficult when other members, that you love, maybe loose sight of that and what the ultimate goal is.

 

If I were you, this young woman would become very dear to me, not to get her to change right away (that's Gods job) but just to get to know her, understand her...and then should the oppertunity present itself...gently guide her.

 

Romans 14:21-22

21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

 

1 Corinthians 8:13

13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

 

 

Sounds like something should be said in both situations (the OP's and yours). I agree with the earlier poster who said women should have to take responsibility, and not just blame the men. Women should not go to church wearing revealing clothes, or hula hoop in revealing clothes in front of a bunch of men. I just can't imagine doing that, and if I did, I would know I was turning the men on. The women there shouldn't have had to worry about their sons looking at/being distracted by this.

 

Jesus told people when they were sinning... He wasn't worried about offending them. He loved them, but still pointed out their sin so they would be saved. He wasn't mean about it, but again, He still told them!

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My response would be something along the lines of "I'm so thankful she felt safe enough to come here. Doesn't it make you feel closer to Jesus, who sat with the prostitues and tax collectors?"

 

Okay let the stoneing begin. ;)

 

You are correct but there is a difference in having the prostitute in church and having her sell herself during the service. I'm guessing Jesus would have put a stop to that.

 

I'm not saying the hula girl is a prostitute but it sounds inappropriate just the same.

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My teenage dd was glared at during our worship service recently--as in, persons in the pew in front of her turning around and giving her the hairy eyeball repeatedly--for whispering the Our Father in Latin. While dressed modestly, with head covered, and kneeling.

 

I think she should show up in low-rise jeans with a hula hoop and see what happens. Might give some people a sense of perspective.

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The problem is that she was young and has an attractive body. That is what made it eye catching. How is shaming this young woman for her youth and attractiveness going to bring her closer to God? I also question what the woman could possibly say to her. If you would say something to her, what would you say, that wouldn't just make you seem jealous and petty?

 

The hula hoop was only part of it. The fact that she was wearing a short shirt and low jeans was the other part. In my opinion, ANY female, old, young, skinny, fat, pretty or ugly, should NOT be baring their belly in church. Even if it's pierced :D (sorry, just had to add that). Yes the hula hoop was distracting, but if she were covered, it probably would have been less of a distraction.

 

just the humble opinion of a mom TRYING to raise 2 girls and walking the thin line between modesty and NOT being ashamed of your body. There are EASIER things to do. Like bake a quiche without it falling.

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Wow! I can't believe it. And to think I still can't get use to the liturgical dancers who are middle aged women, covered from head to toe and definitely not making any moved that could be considered 'interesting'. How in the world could that be considered appropriate for any church service?

 

I don't think there's anyway I could have kept my mouth shut, but I would probably have approached the pastor first. I sort of figure he's in charge.

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Romans 14:21-22

21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak.

 

 

It is GOOD...it's just not MANDATORY! Also, Jesus was constantly offending the religious conservatives of his day (yes they are as much his brothers as fellow christians with differing belife sets) so this verse cannot soley be interpreted the way you are thinking. :)

 

 

1 Corinthians 8:13

13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

 

 

Sounds like something should be said in both situations (the OP's and yours). I agree with the earlier poster who said women should have to take responsibility, and not just blame the men. Women should not go to church wearing revealing clothes, or hula hoop in revealing clothes in front of a bunch of men. I just can't imagine doing that, and if I did, I would know I was turning the men on. The women there shouldn't have had to worry about their sons looking at/being distracted by this.

 

Jesus told people when they were sinning

 

No he only publicly told the religious leaders of their sins, unless you count group encounters) When it came to "sinners" he only addressed them after they welcomed him to in some way ( the woman at the well) Also, this is Jesus we are talking about! Who is more gentle and kind when dealing with us and our sins? I don't know any human who can do his job better than him! :)

 

... He wasn't worried about offending them. He loved them, but still pointed out their sin so they would be saved. He wasn't mean about it, but again, He still told them!

 

Sometimes I sit and think about Mary Magdelene (or the prostitute) annointing his feet with her precious oil. I cannot imagine that Jesus did not know about her sinful lifestyle...and yet he did not address it. But he did address the sins of the others present who wanted him to address hers.

 

I understand that bringing something into the light, BEFORE God's timing, can be as damageing as not dealing with it all. What's worse is that when we focus on the externals, we often lose the oppurtunity to come alongside and be there for the difficult internals.

 

Here is an illustration I like about Grace. Imagine Grace is like the ultimate fertilizer, on the fieled of who we are. When you liberally apply Grace to that field...everything grows, and grows BIG!!!! Yes, sinful things will grow and be visable...but so will good things. Now here's where WISDOM comes in, in knowing when to deal with the sinful issues. You know what the ultimate win is though...nothing is hidden!!!

 

Contrast that with a religious enviroment that smacks your hand everytime you show something deemed sinful (or a stumbling block.) If you stay in church (many don't) you learn how to shove those things down deep where no one can see them. That is the true sadness...white washed tombs. We work hard here to cultivate a church atmosphere where it is safe to be imperfect. Safe to be at different places on the journey. In my book there are only a few times where on addresses someone's sin...and this would not qualify. That doesn't mean that people should do nothing...quite the contrary. As I said, befriend the girl...get to know her, but until you have invested in her...don't judge, because you don't know.

 

Hpe that made sense...and it wasn't meant to be snarky at all.

 

Also, as to the situation I dealt with awhile ago, it worked itself out :) There are always deeper and bigger issues...than the extrenal ones.

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Sometimes I sit and think about Mary Magdelene (or the prostitute) annointing his feet with her precious oil. I cannot imagine that Jesus did not know about her sinful lifestyle...and yet he did not address it. But he did address the sins of the others present who wanted him to address hers.

 

I understand that bringing something into the light, BEFORE God's timing, can be as damageing as not dealing with it all. What's worse is that when we focus on the externals, we often lose the oppurtunity to come alongside and be there for the difficult internals.

 

Here is an illustration I like about Grace. Imagine Grace is like the ultimate fertilizer, on the fieled of who we are. When you liberally apply Grace to that field...everything grows, and grows BIG!!!! Yes, sinful things will grow and be visable...but so will good things. Now here's where WISDOM comes in, in knowing when to deal with the sinful issues. You know what the ultimate win is though...nothing is hidden!!!

 

Contrast that with a religious enviroment that smacks your hand everytime you show something deemed sinful (or a stumbling block.) If you stay in church (many don't) you learn how to shove those things down deep where no one can see them. That is the true sadness...white washed tombs. We work hard here to cultivate a church atmosphere where it is safe to be imperfect. Safe to be at different places on the journey. In my book there are only a few times where on addresses someone's sin...and this would not qualify. That doesn't mean that people should do nothing...quite the contrary. As I said, befriend the girl...get to know her, but until you have invested in her...don't judge, because you don't know.

 

Hpe that made sense...and it wasn't meant to be snarky at all.

 

Also, as to the situation I dealt with awhile ago, it worked itself out :) There are always deeper and bigger issues...than the extrenal ones.

 

Simka, I definitely don't think it should be done publicly, or without welcoming first. Of course not!

 

As far as the prostitute, that's definitely something Jesus would have addressed, unless she had already made up her mind to leave that behind. We don't know the entire conversation, we know a part of it.

 

I think a problem is that sin is accepted in order to be "tolerant". I know we are to love one another, and not judge, but at the same time we are not to tolerate sin. That's all I'm saying. It's okay if we do not agree; I don't mind. :)

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