advanced ESL

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Hi ladies (and gents?)

 

I'm lost again. I don't know what to do for my son's English. He's fluent in every day life. He writes mostly correctly in English, but has had no formal grammar. We are approaching high school, and we will closely match the American high school to make it easier on university admission officers. (they know how to deal with American homeschoolers, not Canadian ones, especially not French Canadians.)

 

So I have to get him ready for SAT and AP exams. Right now, he's getting no formal English instructions. His Language Arts are in French, so is his grammar (and Latin, and Spanish). He's studying math and sciences in English, using English resources, writing the homeschool exams in English, but discussing in French with me. He's also tackling Sonlight 7 for the novels, English vocabulary and history. So there's loads of English in his day, just nothing formal.

 

Will that be enough? Do I need to add some English grammar? He does make mistakes here and there (than/then being the latest one I caught). Is English Lit something we would need to tackle?

[Ohdanigirl]

Does he do essays in English? You can throw grammar in with that. It would be helpful, even after he gets in to college. Many Colleges give essay tests instead of scantron, so it would be great practice. YOu mentioned English lit, but if you could do it across subjects I think it would be great. Then you can use any mistakes you see to discuss with him in English.

 

That said, I am sure he will do well. You would be surprised how many foreign students colleges see during the App process. That reminds me, it may also help to get examples of college admission essay questions and practice with those later on as well. Some people do really well on one type/subject for essays and struggle with others.

 

HTH

 

Danielle

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Thanks USDGal for answering my oost.

However it's not quite what I need.

 

Writing an essay is the same in every European languages, and he does learn it in French. The mechanics of an essay are just too similar between languages to warrant learning them in each language.

 

Here's an example of an email he wrote today:

I like the class very much, Ashley, however, I seemingly uploaded my challenge set, but the upload didn't work some. I send it to you here. I finished the challenge set to date, but there was a technic problem that I only noticed today. Thanks for the help!

 

It's not bad, but it's also not proper written English. It's more like spoken English with a few syllables eaten up. "technic problem" instead of "technical problem", " I like the class" instead of " I liked the class" (class is indeed over).

I'm not too sure what " the upload didn't work some" is supposed to come from. It's not a translation from French. It's just a weird sentence.

 

Basically it's time for him to go from spoken English to proper, formal/semi-formal written English. And I don't know how to approach that.

 

Nan in Mass had a similar problem with her son's French a few months ago.

[Laura Corin]

Apart from the tense problem, his writing just feels very casual. Is his tone the same when he writes essays in English? If so, it seems more like a problem of register, rather than grammar. He probably uses different registers in French (casual, formal, etc.) without thinking about it. He may be able to transfer that idea/skill to English, but perhaps hasn't thought about the need up to now.

 

I would probably start by talking about register and taking him back over some of his work, helping him to edit for appropriateness.

 

For the SAT: it's worth looking at what is required by checking the College Board site. There is a grammar section, but - I seem to remember - it's more about correct usage than it is about being able to label and explain that usage.

 

Laura

[Ester Maria]

Do I need to add some English grammar? He does make mistakes here and there (than/then being the latest one I caught). Is English Lit something we would need to tackle?

I would do a sort of yearly review (or, if not a review, then a crash course) of the English grammar, though I would continue to address the mistakes as they happen. Just like you study French grammar every year, do the same for English, though with lesser intensity and speeding though it a bit.

 

Laura definitely has a point: what you're looking for, essentially, is a higher level skill of swithing registers within the same language. In order to be able to tackle it, he needs to read a lot and come in contact with a lot of different written English (the English of formal letters and documents, for example).

 

Literature is almost a necessary aid, in my opinion; I would certainly have him read a handful of classics written in English yearly - you don't have to put as much emphasis on it as on French literature, but having him read regularly, and read good works (from the point of view of style, language use, etc.), in addition to the common, everyday language he uses, can help to uplift his literacy to a whole new level. My eldest learns very few areas with the resources and supplements in English, and this was the way for me to ensure she becomes literate in spite of that (I also don't have to worry about the colloquial component since there's a lot of everyday English around, but I want her literate - and if you can see your son studying in the anglophone setting at university, you want it even more than me, and you certainly want to emulate a sort of "common educational experience" of the anglophone children, which therefore includes literature of a certain level).

 

I wouldn't insist so much on the output in the next few years (occasional essays), but I would make sure he gets a lot of input, and a modest dose of explicitly taught grammar. I'd switch to a more output-oriented English in his junior and senior years, and have him write a lot then.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Thanks Laura and Esther Maria,

you're right in pointing out it's more of a register problem, than a grammar problem, apart from little details here and there.

 

DS has been following Sonlight cores for 2 years (we're entering year 3). So he reads a lot in English already. In addition, most of his for-pleasure reading is also in English. I have to push French a lot. However I do not see him progress in his written work (neither French nor English, btw). He's having a better time in French because he's getting more work to do. He is following a French Language Arts program whereas he's not for English.

 

If I look back on my own education, I did read lots of English, but was never really able to achieve an appropriate level of English writing. Not even to this day. Because it requires a different level of vocabulary, and even though I know the words when I read them, I can't recall those words when I write. I tried NaNoWriMo a couple of years ago, and I *could* *not* write what I wanted in English.

 

Sure, I can write a lab report, a contract submission, and participate on message boards. But I have never reached the level where I could write a short story. (well, I did write a few fanfics a few years ago but it was *hard*!)

 

 

Writing is, AFAIK, the hardest part of bilingualism. And I'm not entirely sure how to go about it.

[cathmom]

What about getting an English high school level textbook that covers both grammar and writing? Something like this Warriner's text?

 

http://www.setonbooks.com/search.php?subject=&grade=&userSearchString=warriner%27s

[jld]

Well, I thought it looked really good. I would have loved to have had kids in ESL who wrote that well. And Cleo, I think your English is great. If I didn't know you were quebecoise, I would have thought you were a native English speaker, although probably not American. Your written English really is that good. Likely your son's will be someday, too.

 

My dh writes somewhat like your son, and I think it's just because English is not their first language. Unless you have a living context for a language (like Ester Maria's children growing up in America, but with Italian parents), you're probably stronger in your native language than any other. Some immersion experiences should help your son. But really, I think he's already doing really well.

[stripe]

Cleo, I also think it's worth noting that even native English speakers mess this stuff up sometimes. For me, it comes when I haven't been writing as much. I feel my "muscles" are less developed due to atrophy. And as high school students I think it's usual to address common mistakes such as than/then. Especially hard when it's mistakes that one sees made everyday (like the pluralizing with commas, misuse of their/there/they're and it's/its, and so on). Some of these mistakes I think are LESS common among those who learned English as a second language. (By the way, many English dictionaries have this sort of thing in them; if you have an all English dictionary, check.)

 

I complimented my husband on his correct use of apostrophes the other day, and he looked at me as if I were insane.

[Tress]

Especially hard when it's mistakes that one sees made everyday (like the pluralizing with commas, misuse of their/there/they're and it's/its, and so on). Some of these mistakes I think are LESS common among those who learned English as a second.

 

Definitely! It took me sooooo long to even understand why people would make mistakes with their/there/they're. For me there is in the list of where/here/this/that and their belongs to mine/our/his/etc. And with a bad accent (mine) the words don't even sound alike :-)

The same with the popular 'I would of'......of? Of??? :-)

[cathmom]

Definitely! It took me sooooo long to even understand why people would make mistakes with their/there/they're. For me there is in the list of where/here/this/that and their belongs to mine/our/his/etc. And with a bad accent (mine) the words don't even sound alike :-)

The same with the popular 'I would of'......of? Of??? :-)

 

LOL that's what it sounds like! "would of" "would've"

 

Now I'm curious to hear how you pronounce their/there/they're.

[In The Great White North]

For the SAT: it's worth looking at what is required by checking the College Board site. There is a grammar section, but - I seem to remember - it's more about correct usage than it is about being able to label and explain that usage.

 

It is worth looking at. And while he's there, have him sign up for the SAT Question of the Day. They send his email a (math or verbal) question every day. Although the question asks for correct usage, you can click through to get the explanation of why each one was right or wrong.

 

For the common issues, he could use Strunk & Whites, which is frequently used in college English classes, as a style resource. I found a few pages of these in the back of the Voyage books too.

[Ester Maria]

Definitely! It took me sooooo long to even understand why people would make mistakes with their/there/they're. For me there is in the list of where/here/this/that and their belongs to mine/our/his/etc. And with a bad accent (mine) the words don't even sound alike :-)

The same with the popular 'I would of'......of? Of??? :-)

That's our everyday illiteracy, yes. :D

 

I somewhat agree with you about how essentially "illogical" those mistakes are, from the point of view of somebody who learned the language analytically, via grammar... but then you catch yourself writing something like that and then you're :banghead:, not knowing whether you should congratulate to yourself for finally reaching the point of making such mistakes (it is one of the signs that you're getting close to native speakers, y'know - when you start making their mistakes :tongue_smilie:), or you should be deeply troubled by your illiteracy.

 

That being said, I catch myself misspelling things here all the time, but I have this rationalization that it's because of speed (I'm an extremely quick typer), not sound.

I also often find that non-native speakers of English tend to write more correctly, regarding spelling at least.

[Tress]

Part of the reason it took me so long to understand these mistakes, is that I rarely if ever speak English. The only English I encounter is written English, and I do not vocalise when I read. If I did, I 'would of' figured it out much sooner :D.

 

Regarding spelling: I think I'm a decent speller and I have never had any type of phonics instruction. I have never really understood why native English speakers need that so much, I can't possibly have learned the spelling of every word apart, or have I? :confused:

 

(Sorry for the hijack.)

[cathmom]

Regarding spelling: I think I'm a decent speller and I have never had any type of phonics instruction. I have never really understood why native English speakers need that so much, I can't possibly have learned the spelling of every word apart, or have I? :confused:

 

(Sorry for the hijack.)

 

That goes along with my theory that you either can spell or you can't spell. Period. I hardly ever spell things wrong; I've won and placed in spelling bees, but it's not because I studied spelling. It's because somehow I can tell if the word looks right.

[Laura Corin]

That goes along with my theory that you either can spell or you can't spell. Period. I hardly ever spell things wrong; I've won and placed in spelling bees, but it's not because I studied spelling. It's because somehow I can tell if the word looks right.

 

There are some people who don't need to work at spelling and others who do. I've never needed to work hard at it and neither have my boys. They make the odd mistake, but learn very fast when it is pointed out. They read a lot, which helps, but I know that it's possible to read a lot and still spell badly.

 

When Calvin was small he was tested for LDs. He came out as four years ahead in his ability to distinguish an item from its background. He was an early and avid reader. I've often wondered if his early ability came from a natural trick of being able to pick out words - and maybe their spelling - from the text.

 

Laura

[cathmom]

Well, not to completely hijack the thread, I would say that, in my experience, for people who just can't spell, studying doesn't seem to help. I once had a woman tell me that my theory was completely and totally wrong - her dh couldn't spell at all but now 20-30 years later, he's learned a few words he always got wrong. I posted back and told her that she had just proved my theory LOL. If you can learn one word a year, that's great, but the average lifespan is only about 75!

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

In my son's case, spelling isn't a problem. Neither of us ever had phonics, and we're pretty good English spellers. To a French ear, English can only be spelled one way, except for a few tricky words.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I think I may have found something!

 

The Curious Case of the Misplaced Modifier: How to Solve the Mysteries of Weak Writing

 

Is anyone familiar with this?

[cathmom]

I have that book but haven't read it yet. I should.