Conservative Christian values vs. American Literature reading list...(obvious CC)

[Julie in CA]

In comparing American literature reading lists for the high school level, there are a lot of books that contain very "mature themes". If you are a conservative Christian, what's your perspective regarding what books should be included in or excluded from a rigorous high school literature course, keeping in mind Philippians 4:8?

 

I'm looking for a considered statement of your thoughts, and I'm purposely *not* stating my own thoughts on this, so that no one feels they need to spend time convincing me my perspective is wrong. Irl, discussions from those on both sides of this issue become heated rather quickly. I'd find reading a variety of well thought out opinions valuable. :001_smile:

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that the Bible references many sinful realities. I have no problem reading classics that reference those same sinful realities even if they are in a context which does not condemn them. I would have a problem with something that was soft porn but most classics tend to mention things without being explicit - at least the ones that I remember reading. I would want to discuss any classic with my child at that level whether it had mature topics or not.

[Carol in Cal.]

I favor reading and discussing sinful issues as well as virtuous ones. I do have a preference for classics that end in a morally upright way, but don't insist on that across the board.

 

I avoid graphic descriptions of violence or s*x as much as possible. I think that the feeding of the imagination by those is more contradictory to the Phil. passage than the inclusion of sinful themes in literature.

 

I'm really glad to have 'gotten there first' with my views so much. I studied "Romeo and Juliet" in 9th grade and thought that it was wonderfully romantic and idealistic in many ways. But when DD studied it in 7th grade, I taught it as these kids being trapped in some ways unjustly, but not dealing with that very well either. I pointed out how Romeo had jumped from one woman to another, and asked how likely it was that he would stay true to Juliet? I pointed out that once they were married and spent the night together they really could not legally be kept apart, so they really just had to wait things out at that point until they could disclose their marriage and let the chips fall where they may. DD bought this line of thinking entirely, and I'm really glad that we had those talks. I knew that the real risk in that play would be to tend to romanticize suicide, and didn't study until I was sure that it would play out that way.

 

Discussion is the key, I think.

[Lolly]

I do not let topics keep my high school aged girls from reading books. Explicit material would be different. :glare: I have found that irl they are encountering adult situations. In my experience, it isn't something that they can be sheltered from. Having experienced and discussed adult topics with me before encountering them seems to have helped. Just yesterday, my twins found out that one of their best friends (who had had some major changes in personality last year and become a different person) had been r@ped by a male friend (her own age) and spent 3 months thinking she was pg. Sheltering them from these things just isn't possible.

[Chris in VA]

I had ds read extensively in high school, but I did nix a couple of classics others would have allowed in--Brave New World comes to mind. Other ds read it in public school (no surprise there, really), but I couldn't stomach it and so substituted a couple of other books. Not saying it isn't ok for a Christian to read, just saying I didn't want my family to--

And that is key, I think. I am not afraid to say no to something that makes me uncomfortable. I realize being made uncomfortable is the point in a lot of the literature; I mean reading something that is so graphic when the point could be made equally well with something else. There are some books I allowed that are incredibly graphic, so I'm a bit of a hypocrite, I guess. I wanted ds to be aware of the Holocaust, for example--so I not only assigned several books and films, but also had him "visit" the camps online. We were going to go to the museum, but he had had enough--so sometimes, they draw the line, too, and I think that showed maturity on his part.

 

I agree that discussion is key, also. By mid-late high school, I want my kids' eyes to be opened to the evils of the world. I just don't want those evils glorified--so, if a book does that (most don't, but some seem to, from the POV of a major character), then we talk and talk about it. One son has done and seen enough evil of his own to be able to talk with familiarity about book situations--and I don't want him steeping in that world again. I actually want to protect him (who has already been exposed) more than protecting my other one who doesn't have first-hand knowledge.

[WishboneDawn]

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.

 

I can see how a reading of this might seem to exclude books with mature, violent or ugly content but I think it's perfectly reasonable to sit with the verse a little longer and conclude that that's not what it's saying at all.

 

Sometimes the path that leads to those thoughts is one that also has you confront horrors. Some of my favourite books that led to the most uplifting thoughts I've had were books like Blindness, The Kite Runner and A Fine Balance that contained very mature themes and absolutely terrible scenes. Heck, look at the Bible itself as Jean mentioned. Look at Jesus. He was nailed to a cross. And yet so many find His story to be uplifting and inspiring.

 

I think the trick is not to ignore those themes and I don't think Paul suggests that at all. The thing is to confront them and find the good, the pure, the lovely in them. Don't give in to despair, reach past that and see the excellence. Imagine if all we saw when we looked at Jesus on the cross was the horror, pain and suffering and nothing else. It gives wonderful insight when reading books and is great practice for life itself which is absolutely chalk-full of mature themes. :)

[homeschoolally]

:bigear: Researching this myself so looking forward to following this conversation.

[catalinakel]

I think that the Bible references many sinful realities. I have no problem reading classics that reference those same sinful realities even if they are in a context which does not condemn them. I would have a problem with something that was soft porn but most classics tend to mention things without being explicit - at least the ones that I remember reading. I would want to discuss any classic with my child at that level whether it had mature topics or not.

 

:iagree: Well said, Jean. As a former English major, it was the reading of seriously themed literature that helped me to cement my beliefs and convictions as a conservative Christian. I hope for my children to be able to view all artistic expression through the grid of a Biblical worldview.

[catalinakel]

Additionally, I believe that classic lit is classic because it generally paints an accurate picture of the depravity of man, and God's redeeming power, although, obviously, not always in an explicit manner.

[Laurie4b]

I think that the Bible references many sinful realities. I have no problem reading classics that reference those same sinful realities even if they are in a context which does not condemn them. I would have a problem with something that was soft porn but most classics tend to mention things without being explicit - at least the ones that I remember reading. I would want to discuss any classic with my child at that level whether it had mature topics or not.

 

:iagree:

[Laurie4b]

I can see how a reading of this might seem to exclude books with mature, violent or ugly content but I think it's perfectly reasonable to sit with the verse a little longer and conclude that that's not what it's saying at all.

 

Sometimes the path that leads to those thoughts is one that also has you confront horrors. Some of my favourite books that led to the most uplifting thoughts I've had were books like Blindness, The Kite Runner and A Fine Balance that contained very mature themes and absolutely terrible scenes. Heck, look at the Bible itself as Jean mentioned. Look at Jesus. He was nailed to a cross. And yet so many find His story to be uplifting and inspiring.

 

I think the trick is not to ignore those themes and I don't think Paul suggests that at all. The thing is to confront them and find the good, the pure, the lovely in them. Don't give in to despair, reach past that and see the excellence. Imagine if all we saw when we looked at Jesus on the cross was the horror, pain and suffering and nothing else. It gives wonderful insight when reading books and is great practice for life itself which is absolutely chalk-full of mature themes. :)

 

Very well said.

[Kates]

I let my 8th/9th grader read books with mature themes...the one area I stay away from (at the moment) is glorification of sexual immorality or other obvious sin. I would let him read something in which pre/extra-marital sex occurred (not graphically, of course) and there was an honest dealing with the subject, but it would need to be...honest. Real.

 

Most classics do this, though. They offer a realistic look at the ups and downs of life, at sin and purity, at greed and selflessness. They give food for thought and discussion. And my main rule - other than glorification of sin - is that we discuss everything.

 

Great lit isn't meant to be read and discarded; it's meant to be read, over and over, mulled over, thought about, and discussed. It's meant to make you look at life in a new light. If you skip those steps...well, it's pretty meaningless. You might as well stick with fill in the blank worksheets and call it a day. ;)

 

IMO, sin is out there. You can't live in the world (whether you're of it or not) without being confronted with sin and mature themes on a daily basis. We have two choices - shelter our kids from this completely and hope they can figure out how to deal with it on their own...or present it in a realistic manner that's a step removed from "reality" - one where they can see the truth and consequences of these things without having to deal with the outcome themselves, where they can discuss, analyze, and decide their actions for themselves with some hindsight - and prepare them to be who God meant for them to be. I choose the latter. :001_smile:

[TXMary2]

I am not in favor of "banning" of any sort, but I would stay away from gratuitious violence or s**ual themes when it comes to high school reading. The Bible mentions many unsavory things and I think they are important to talk about in christian contexts. Keeping in mind Phillipians says to think on what is noble, right and true, and nothing about "don't talk about _________." That's my .02

[Murmer]

I am in agreement with most of what is said. Following Paul's admonition means (for me) that I am seeking what is of worth. Classic literature (and some contemporary) usually of worth. It has a redeeming quality to it that overcomes what may be objectionable. For me, I consider the context...s@x for the sake of s@x is not worthy no matter what, the story of rape and redemption may be of worth but it would strongly depend on what happens and how it is portrayed. So it is a consideration of the parts of the story and the whole of the story.

[LibraryLover]

Part of becoming a good and thoughtful reader is developing the ability to agree or disagree with a narrative's point of view. If my values had me reading only those things with which I agreed or found true, and knew the ending (the good guys always win, and nothing really bad or thought-provoking ever happens), what sort of reader would I be? I need to understand whether I am being offered a plate of garbage, or a free and clear estate in Provence.

 

One of the reasons so many people fall for bunk on the Internet is because they do not know how to read for meaning; they do not know how to discern or judge ideas or information, "Hey, Joe Schmuck has a blog about this (or made a whole movie about). It must be valid."

[6packofun]

I agree with this and it's how we make distinctions as well. Usually what *makes* a story redemptive is the inclusion of some pretty serious sins, but the detail with which it's told is a key factor for us. Many, many modern novels being used in high school classrooms have scenes of s*xuality just for the sake of having it or describe a character's temptations way too vividly to be necessary. Then we have to weigh the worth of the whole piece against the author's choices to do that.

 

There are many things that our children are going to have to face out in the world, but I don't think that reading about them in sub-par or even good (not great) literature is necessary for their maturation. It also doesn't mean that we need to *introduce* depravity that might frighten or disgust them in the name of literature analysis and having a good dialogue, practicing their reasoning skills, etc. I don't fall for that rationale and I'm teaching my children not to, either. As an adult, if I read a book that crosses a line that I personally have on content and presentation, then I put it down and don't bother. My kids do the same.

[6packofun]

And at the same time, this verse comes to mind when I think of some "classics" and modern "great" novels that I've read where the theme or message the author was trying to get across were stymied (for me) by a scene or two that distracted my mind because they were so violent/s*xual/whatever. When we read a book, some things, some visuals created by the author stay with us in our minds--perhaps not the things intended to stay with us. And then, we face the reality of "thinking on such things"... It's different for every person, of course, particularly for children and teens. This isn't to place blame or say that there should be a uniform reading list for everyone at ALL; just making a point. :)

 

In The Kite Runner, for example, some people may be able to read right past the description--short, but still descriptive--of the boy being r*ped and some people may have the horror of that stuck in their minds, even crowding out the good. We can't say which one of those reactions we might have sometimes, but we should all have the *choice* to put that book down, assigned reading or not.

 

Water for Elephants is another adult novel being assigned in schools today, and, which contains s*xual content that is gratuitous and has no redemptive reason for being, IMO. I assume that it's to create an "accurate" atmosphere of the carnival lifestyle and/or develop the characters, give them depth or some such. I think that the low standards for teens concerning self-control and s*xuality is the reason that more of these books are being assigned. The old "they're doing it anyway" mentality, so why not allow it in their literature...and hey, the teacher read it in her girlfriend's book club and it was, like, so awesome, so why not? lol Or the teacher saw that it was on a list that some other teacher assigned? I cringe at the coverage some of these books are getting in schools in the hands of teachers who may not have read ahead or can't direct the discussion or assignments appropriately. That's all subject to opinion, though. :D

[Mrs Mungo]

Part of becoming a good and thoughtful reader is developing the ability to agree or disagree with a narrative's point of view. If my values had me reading only those things with which I agreed or found true, and knew the ending (the good guys always win, and nothing really bad or thought-provoking ever happens), what sort of reader would I be? I need to understand whether I am being offered a plate of garbage, or a free and clear estate in Provence.

 

One of the reasons so many people fall for bunk on the Internet is because they do not know how to read for meaning; they do not know how to discern or judge ideas or information, "Hey, Joe Schmuck has a blog about this (or made a whole movie about). It must be valid."

 

I could not agree more.

 

Just to add to that, there are times when you have to ask yourself, "if there is a redeeming quality of this book, what is it?"

 

You can see this in the thread where I talked about Catcher in the Rye. It will never be one of my favorite books. I really had to think about what a redeeming value of this book would be. For me? The answer is that Holden is telling the story. That means he was able to come out of that and see what a stupid, hateful, rebellious, shallow boy he was. He grew from that situation as evidenced by his telling of the story.

 

How about Lolita? I think the redeeming value is that bad guys don't always look or sound like bad guys. They don't always even think or believe what they are doing is wrong. That makes some manipulators particularly dangerous. Better you learn it through a book than in real life.

[Mrs Mungo]

In The Kite Runner, for example, some people may be able to read right past the description--short, but still descriptive--of the boy being r*ped and some people may have the horror of that stuck in their minds, even crowding out the good. We can't say which one of those reactions we might have sometimes, but we should all have the *choice* to put that book down, assigned reading or not.

 

But that is SO incredibly common in Afghanistan, how could you NOT include it? It is extremely pervasive. I think people SHOULD know how children are being treated. In my experience, children being treated as commodities is one of the biggest problems for American soldiers serving there.

[MSNative]

But that is SO incredibly common in Afghanistan, how could you NOT include it? It is extremely pervasive. I think people SHOULD know how children are being treated. In my experience, children being treated as commodities is one of the biggest problems for American soldiers serving there.

:iagree:

 

I guess my question back to OP would be - who decides which books make it into the required reading? Some of the req'd reading books are not required to be well educated. Some are amazing and ought to be read, but perhaps by a senior, not a freshman. So, would I ban books for my family? No. But I would take the time to decide which books I want my kids to read. Then I would take a lot of time to decide when I want them to read them.

 

Kudos to you, Mrs. Mungo, for finding a redeeming quality in Catcher in the Rye. I have yet to force myself to reread that book since high school. Perhaps I will now...............ok, no really, probably not. I really disliked that book.

Edited September 27, 2010 by MSNative

[HRAAB]

There are different ways in which to describe those sinful realities of human nature. An author can use vulgar and profane language and vivid descriptions of sexual scenes and violence; or an author can still portray the reality accurately without using copious amounts of vulgar language or extremely descriptive accounts of sexual scenes or violence. I don't mind at all my high school students reading about the sinful actions and consequences of those actions, but I would prefer it be accomplished without too much graphic description/language. There are times it adds reality and understanding, and there are times it seems to be more for shock value than anything.

 

I also have two dds who tend to carry those graphic images around in their heads forever.

 

eta: my dd read The Kite Runner when she was 20. She says she is still haunted by the rape scene a year later and can't get the picture she imagined out of her mind. It seriously bothers her. Absolutely we need to be aware, but for me it's in the delivery. I have not read The Kite Runner yet; mainly because I've been feeling rather fragile and don't think I could handle it right now. I do plan on reading it sometime.

Edited September 27, 2010 by Ishki

[6packofun]

I would agree with you, but the descriptive language of the actual act IS disturbing to some people. Again, it depends on the sensitivities of the person and I think the book is excellent, just not right for every teen.

[Carol in Cal.]

But that is SO incredibly common in Afghanistan, how could you NOT include it? It is extremely pervasive. I think people SHOULD know how children are being treated. In my experience, children being treated as commodities is one of the biggest problems for American soldiers serving there.

 

I feel that you can and should include the FACT of it, but not the details. Detailed, evocative descriptions of s*x, violence, and s*xual violence are not necessary to the telling of a story. My DD has to read the sequel to that book for her high school classes next spring, and I am not enthusiastic. Graphic descriptions of this kind of thing could be replaced by allusions and by something more factual. As long as it's still in there (and I am a BIG advocate of honesty in this regard, not euphemism or soft-peddling), it's conveyed the point. A skillful author can explain these things without forcing you to imagine them in all their gory detail, and IMO that is more consistent with the guidance in Philippians.

 

(Personally, the image that haunts me even more from that book is the ball going into the eye socket. Wish I had some mental floss for that one. Even though he totally deserved it.)