Q's about Emotional Abuse

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

Do you think this is real? What kind of things qualify for the abuse part and not just comments that are mean spirited? How would you help a friend who asked you for thoughts? She has never had a job, they have 2 kids (one a toddler who won't even stay in the church nursery for 1 hour without screaming), and she doesn't have parents.

 

Is it more damaging to stay and have a husband make snide remarks or leave and have to send 2 young kids to daycare all day? The youngest one would definitely scream for hours and weeks.

[Daisy]

 

Is it more damaging to stay and have a husband make snide remarks or leave and have to send 2 young kids to daycare all day? The youngest one would definitely scream for hours and weeks.

 

Just answering the second part. I think a better question is this, especially if we are really dealing with an abusive situation.

 

Is is more damaging to stay and have your children grow up and marry someone just like their Dad, or leave and have to send two young kids to daycare all day?

 

This was a graph that was linked on my FB this week (Thanks, Smrt Mama). http://www.dayahouston.org/images/ch1-graph.gif

Edited September 22, 2010 by Daisy

[OnTheBrink]

Is it REAL? For the love of cake, of course it's real!

 

http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm

[lionfamily1999]

Before calling abuse, perhaps she should speak to her husband about how he speaks to her. I'm from the 'not all meanness is abuse' camp.

[The Girls' Mom]

Yes it's real. Yes it has lasting, negative effects on children. Yes, it's better to get out if possible, if it's severe and the abuser will not stop.

 

I am 34 years old and still deal with damage done from emotional abuse as a child.

[Unicorn.]

Yes it's real. Yes it has lasting, negative effects on children. Yes, it's better to get out if possible, if it's severe and the abuser will not stop.

 

.

 

:iagree: And, IMHO- it is almost worse than physical abuse- because people can't "see" it, making it harder to prove, and harder to seek help for.

She should get out for her sake, and the kids. And as far as the toddler screaming for weeks, no he wouldn't. It might take a couple of days to adjust, but he won't scream for weeks.

[Mejane]

Agree with pps about first seeing if the relationship can be saved. Has she communicated her feelings to him? Has he promised/tried to change yet the abuse continues? Are the comments such that they are causing her emotional trauma? If yes to these questions, then leaving sounds like the best recourse. The kids will survive daycare; they may not "survive" their father's emotional abuse.

[The Girls' Mom]

I forgot to add...

 

What makes emotional abuse? When you are repeatedly demeaned, put down and threatened.

[BMW]

Agreeing with many comments so far... yes, it is many times more difficult than the physical abuse. It's very real. It's degrading. It's controlling and manipulating and it's very unhealthy. One of my biggest regrets is not leaving until my children were saturated with it... now I have to watch as they repeat and hold to some ideas that are not healthy. It's very hard for my children to discern why manipulation and fear are not wrong, because it was how they were raised. It's my life battle.

 

Now, for this friend... it's her story. How bad is it? What exactly is involved? Who is her husband? What's he like? Does he justify it? Does he believe he is right? Is he willing to get help/counseling?

 

Looking at my story and these questions, I also have to add... because this type of abuse is hard to identify and fight, if she leaves, her husband still has parental rights to the children. So, becoming a single parent doesn't always mean her children are out of their dad's influence.

 

I am learning with my therapist to teach my children by my own statements about me and what I believe and leave their dad out of it.... So, when their dad makes a decision that is hurtful or manipulative, instead of bring that up, I find an opportunity where I have a similar decision to make and I share with my children why that is a good decision and what is right about it.

 

Just know... whatever the decisions are this week, this month, when it comes to dealing with abusive people, you are in it for life...

[TXMomof4]

There are new studies out about how brain chemistry changes as a result of emotional abuse. Constantly living in fear of someones response - even if it is never physical has a profound effect on a person. It effects their responses to everything and their children"s responses. I've witnessed this in my sister's marriage and it is terrible.

[Guest mrsjamiesouth]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. We talk almost everyday and she in the last month has shared things her husband does to ask me if I think it's normal. She stays at home so he expects her to cook 3 meals a day and keep the house clean. I asked what happens if it is not, and she said that he will lecture her and tell her to start cleaning. I asked what if she doesn't, then she said he says nasty stuff, but hasn't ever threatened or touched her. Nasty as in calling her a lazy fat-a**. Once we were on the phone and I heard him yell from another room that she needed to get off the computer and go sweep the floor because there were crumbs. She had just called me telling me she was glad to have a moment to rest. I have heard him "joke" in social situations that her cooking is terrible and she can't clean anything. I find her cooking delicious so I didn't know what to think about that. He is a super nice guy, goes out of his way to help anybody. But she says that when he is off he spends about 10 hours a day sitting in a lazy boy watching shows about teenage girls. She told me a few weeks ago that he asked her if she would get a tummy tuck and a boob job after Christmas. He was embarrassed that one of his friends thought she looked pregnant. She doesn't ever get to go to girls night out because she says he won't watch the kids.

 

I asked her about counseling and she said that he will only go to a non-christian and she refuses to go to a non-christian because she thinks it would do more damage. Obviously she goes to church and he doesn't. He never complains about her going. She has control of the finances, pays all the bill, and he even calls her to ask if he can buy things. But she told me if she ever tells him that they cannot afford something he throws a fit about working so hard, telling her to get a job. When she actually looks at jobs, he tells her not to get one because it would barely pay for daycare. I think he just likes to hold her not bringing in money over her head.

 

Do you think this is abuse, are these comments reason to leave?

[Wheres Toto]

:iagree: And, IMHO- it is almost worse than physical abuse- because people can't "see" it, making it harder to prove, and harder to seek help for.

She should get out for her sake, and the kids. And as far as the toddler screaming for weeks, no he wouldn't. It might take a couple of days to adjust, but he won't scream for weeks.

 

:iagree:

My first husband was emotionally/verbally abusive. It can be very hard to prove, even to yourself. If he had ever hit me, I would have left immediately, never thought twice about it and most people would agree with the decision. Instead it was years and years of browbeating, put-downs, cursing, threats, etc. Much harder to explain/prove, many people will think you just decided to tear your family apart on a whim and he continues to think he did absolutely nothing wrong. It took me a long time to recover from it.

 

My daughter was 8 when we left and she has told me often since then that she was glad when it all ended. Unfortunately she does see him frequently but he was never abusive to her. As she gets older, he is getting worse to her but she now has something to compare him to (my dh is very, very different) and knows she can decide not to stay with him any time she wants. Right now she's not ready to have that conversation with him (it would be brutal) but is counting down until she's 18 and graduates high school.

[Kim in Appalachia]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts. We talk almost everyday and she in the last month has shared things her husband does to ask me if I think it's normal. She stays at home so he expects her to cook 3 meals a day and keep the house clean. I asked what happens if it is not, and she said that he will lecture her and tell her to start cleaning. I asked what if she doesn't, then she said he says nasty stuff, but hasn't ever threatened or touched her. Nasty as in calling her a lazy fat-a**. Once we were on the phone and I heard him yell from another room that she needed to get off the computer and go sweep the floor because there were crumbs. She had just called me telling me she was glad to have a moment to rest. I have heard him "joke" in social situations that her cooking is terrible and she can't clean anything. I find her cooking delicious so I didn't know what to think about that. He is a super nice guy, goes out of his way to help anybody. But she says that when he is off he spends about 10 hours a day sitting in a lazy boy watching shows about teenage girls. She told me a few weeks ago that he asked her if she would get a tummy tuck and a boob job after Christmas. He was embarrassed that one of his friends thought she looked pregnant. She doesn't ever get to go to girls night out because she says he won't watch the kids.

 

I asked her about counseling and she said that he will only go to a non-Christian and she refuses to go to a non-Christian because she thinks it would do more damage. Obviously she goes to church and he doesn't. He never complains about her going. She has control of the finances, pays all the bill, and he even calls her to ask if he can buy things. But she told me if she ever tells him that they cannot afford something he throws a fit about working so hard, telling her to get a job. When she actually looks at jobs, he tells her not to get one because it would barely pay for daycare. I think he just likes to hold her not bringing in money over her head.

 

Do you think this is abuse, are these comments reason to leave?

 

This hits a bit close to home for me. I had an aunt who lived like this for years. Her husband was awful. Nothing she did was good enough, she never looked good enough, and he had countless affairs to boot. I will say it did horrible damage to the kids. It was a rough house to live in, and they all bear the scars of it.

 

But before I would ever suggest that she leave, I would say to get counseling. There is nothing wrong with a non-Christian counselor. You can still get good help from one, and if her husband is willing to go it may be helpful. I would also suggest she learn to speak up for herself. When he calls her a name she should calmly tell him that when he says such things it hurts and ask him to stop. Then every time he calls her a name, say, "I asked you to stop, I will not listen when you speak that way", and walk away. There are not only 2 options, stay and put up with it, or leave. She needs to try and change things. She may not be able to change the fact that he does nothing around the house, or that he has high (unrealistic) expectations, but she needs to work on how he communicates, especially in front of the kids.

 

If he ever starts physically hurting her, then she needs to get out for her safety and deal with the marriage from a distance.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Yes, this is abuse!!! As far as a non-Christian counselor causing more problems ... I have no idea where she would get that idea. I think a counselor who is not coming from a singular religious viewpoint could be a very good thing. This person is more likely to hold the husband accountable for his behavior and encourage her to stand up for herself. I would definitely seek that out before splitting - if only to get documentation from a 3rd party about how damaging the emotional abuse can be. This may be helpful in the long run if she does decide to leave and wants to have custody.

[shannatheshedevil]

I don't get why a non-Christian counselor would make things worse, but I would strongly suggest she try counseling and get over the religious aspect.

[Rebel]

Oh dear. This sounds almost exactly like my ex-husband in soooo many ways. This is the same ex who was arrested and convicted for online solicitation of a minor. There was definitely emotional abuse in our relationship. I just didn't recognize it until after I left and got counseling.

 

It will be extremely difficult as men like this are expert manipulators, but she should get the heck out of there.

[melissel]

Frankly, given all that you described, if I were her, I would walk, immediately. I don't see that kind of person changing, and I see red flags for much larger things down the road. My mom is dealing with the repercussions of 40 years of life with this kind of man. No one should have to live that way. It breaks my heart :(

[melissel]

I would definitely seek that out before splitting - if only to get documentation from a 3rd party about how damaging the emotional abuse can be. This may be helpful in the long run if she does decide to leave and wants to have custody.

 

And I wanted to add that, actually, I agree with this, simply because small children are involved. These kinds of men are outwardly wonderful and charming, and often, the people around them think of them as heroes and upstanding men. My parents' counselor initially gave my father's side of the story much more credence when they began seeing her. Now that they've been going for months, the counselor can see what's really going on and her guidance has changed drastically.

 

A credentialed third party can help your friend greatly in this.

[EJCMom]

Speaking as someone who has been in an emotionally abusive relationship, I can tell you if she's sharing this much, it's likely even worse. Yes, this is abuse.

[ourjourneys]

There are always 2 sides to every story. It would be good if there was someone who will listen to both of them without judging. They may both be at fault and not realize it. There may be ways for him to see he is hurtful, then he may never and it may get worse. The children will always be their fathers too and there is no way to completely break the ties. I'm for working it out if there is any hope :)

[Susan in TX]

Any counselor can make things worse, especially a marriage counselor. Many are not trained in dealing with emotional abuse and don't recognize it. many emotional abusers are very good at making themselves look good to other people.

 

This is a really good website http://www.verbalabuse.com/

 

I would seriously consider leaving, but she shouldn't rush into it. She really should consult a lawyer and get help from a domestic violence agency, if possible. It is not uncommon for verbal abuse to escalate into physical abuse.

 

Susan in TX

[Laurie4b]

I don't think that we're really in a position to decide whether what he does is worth leaving. We're getting this third hand on the internet. However, given what you've stated here, it is very possible that he might respond to counseling. If he doesn't want to go to Christian counseling, then I think that is something she could compromise on. She probably has a distorted view of what secular counseling would be anyway.If he were to change, would the marriage be worth staying in? If so, it's worth getting the counseling.

[lionfamily1999]

There are always 2 sides to every story. It would be good if there was someone who will listen to both of them without judging. They may both be at fault and not realize it. There may be ways for him to see he is hurtful, then he may never and it may get worse. The children will always be their fathers too and there is no way to completely break the ties. I'm for working it out if there is any hope :)

:iagree: I have friends that can make their own lives sound truly miserable... until they're in a better mood.

 

Him asking about purchasing things, imo, makes it sound like there may be more to this than she's mentioning. I also know that it's possible to see your life as much bleaker than it is when it's convenient to do so. I've done it, myself.

I don't think that we're really in a position to decide whether what he does is worth leaving. We're getting this third hand on the internet. However, given what you've stated here, it is very possible that he might respond to counseling. If he doesn't want to go to Christian counseling, then I think that is something she could compromise on. She probably has a distorted view of what secular counseling would be anyway.If he were to change, would the marriage be worth staying in? If so, it's worth getting the counseling.

:iagree: While I know Christians are supposed to seek Christian advice, I think she needs to consider which would be worse, tossing the promise she made before God or going to see a secular couselor.

[Remudamom]

I'll just add I have two nieces who will always be dysfunctional because of their dad's emotional abuse of them.

[Renee in NC]

Without reading the rest of the thread yet - yes, emotional abuse is real. Someone very close to me is subjected to emotional abuse on a daily basis - even if that abuse is sometimes that the person abusing him simply refuses to talk to him for days (weeks) at a time as punishment for some wrongdoing. He plans to leave the situation at 12:01am on his 18th birthday.

 

The emotionally abused person can get worked down so that they begin to believe the things the abuser is saying to them. I was subjected to this person's abuse for many years as well and I can say that it can be hard to break free. It was YEARS later (about 12 years after I split) before I quit taking his abuse.

 

It finally dawned on me one day (and I told him) that he had no power over me. I didn't have to listen to his latest tirade. I didn't have to listen to him twist everything I said around so that he made me feel as if I was the only one who had the problem (typical emptionally abusive narcissist!)

 

It is real and it really hurts. Just because you can't see the scars doesn't mean they aren't there.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Renee in FL

[RegGuheert]

Q's about Emotional Abuse

Do you think this is real?

I do.

What kind of things qualify for the abuse part and not just comments that are mean spirited?

I don't think it is particular comments, but is more a controlling, belittling atmosphere that is created.

How would you help a friend who asked you for thoughts? She has never had a job, they have 2 kids (one a toddler who won't even stay in the church nursery for 1 hour without screaming), and she doesn't have parents.

 

Is it more damaging to stay and have a husband make snide remarks or leave and have to send 2 young kids to daycare all day? The youngest one would definitely scream for hours and weeks.

I don't know the answers to these questions. I will say that we used to be friends with a couple in which the wife was eventually treated for mental illness and later committed suicide. While her condition was attributed to a family history of mental illness, we have always felt that emotional abuse *may* have been a contributing factor. (It's always hard to know for sure what may have gone on behind closed doors.) In any case, it was tragic, so I believe the outcome *can* be quite bad.

[smrtmama]

Yes, it is real, and it's incredibly insulting to the victims of emotional abuse to imply they're just being oversensitive or should have "put up with it." Emotional abuse is not only dangerous and damaging in its own right, but often a warning sign for escalating future abuse.

[Lovedtodeath]

Before calling abuse, perhaps she should speak to her husband about how he speaks to her. I'm from the 'not all meanness is abuse' camp.

:iagree:Dr. Phil's relationship rescue got my marriage to the other side. This was after I had packed my things. Now we are like perpetual newlyweds. You would never believe that we had this problem or that I was afraid of my husband at one point. Yes it is real, but we were both contributing to it.

[Beth in OH]

An important book about abuse is Why Does He Do That, by Lundy Bancroft. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1285204357&sr=8-1 I have heard a counselor suggest that a woman read this book (if she can do so safely) to give her an objective standard by which to measure her husband's (or other's) behavior. Many of the examples are extremely abusive, but the underlying control and anger issues can also be present in less serious situations.

 

This book says that when seeking counseling, it is important to work with a counselor who is very experienced in working with abusive men. Such men are very able to manipulate a person and situation, and marriage counseling with someone not specially trained can result in great emotional damage to the non-abusive spouse. If such a person isn't available, your friend might do better to seek counseling on her own first. She needs to gain some perspective, first.

 

Beth

[Joanne]

An important book about abuse is Why Does He Do That, by Lundy Bancroft. http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does-He-That-Controlling/dp/0425191656/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1285204357&sr=8-1 I have heard a counselor suggest that a woman read this book (if she can do so safely) to give her an objective standard by which to measure her husband's (or other's) behavior. Many of the examples are extremely abusive, but the underlying control and anger issues can also be present in less serious situations.

 

This book says that when seeking counseling, it is important to work with a counselor who is very experienced in working with abusive men. Such men are very able to manipulate a person and situation, and marriage counseling with someone not specially trained can result in great emotional damage to the non-abusive spouse. If such a person isn't available, your friend might do better to seek counseling on her own first. She needs to gain some perspective, first.

 

Beth

 

I was going to recommend this book.

 

I'll add this:

 

Power and Control wheel

 

Another resource are any books authored by Patricia Evans, particularly The Verbally Abusive Relationship (I have spoken with her personally).

 

As far as counseling, from a clinical and experiential standpoint, I'm more inclined to be comfortable in a non-explicitly Christian setting than a Christian one for issues of non physical abuse. Explicitly "Christian" counseling in areas of emotional/verbal abuse often serve to perpetuate the cycle.

 

There are millions of counselors who happen to be Christian but practice as secular counselors, not advertising as "Christian" counselors.

[Lovedtodeath]

As far as counseling, from a clinical and experiential standpoint, I'm more inclined to be comfortable in a non-explicitly Christian setting than a Christian one for issues of non physical abuse. Explicitly "Christian" counseling in areas of emotional/verbal abuse often serve to perpetuate the cycle.

 

There are millions of counselors who happen to be Christian but practice as secular counselors, not advertising as "Christian" counselors.

:iagree:

[TXMomof4]

The fact that she recognizes that things aren't right is huge to me. My sister is just now beginning to see that her ex *might* be a little manipulative and that everything in the world is not her fault. The lengths she went to to protect him during their divorce defy human understanding. The fear of what he *might* do was overwhelming to her, but she didn't see that as something unusual.

 

I would recommend counseling for her if nothing else. It was a revelation to her that her husband having an affair was not her fault. He had her convinced that his lack of morals/character were because of her. It's taken months to get to this point. If your friend is acknowledging that maybe everything isn't hunky-dory, she's at least got a foot in the door to correct/escape the situation.

 

(The above is my completely unprofessional opinion)

[simka2]

I was going to recommend this book.

 

I'll add this:

 

Power and Control wheel

 

Another resource are any books authored by Patricia Evans, particularly The Verbally Abusive Relationship (I have spoken with her personally).

 

As far as counseling, from a clinical and experiential standpoint, I'm more inclined to be comfortable in a non-explicitly Christian setting than a Christian one for issues of non physical abuse. Explicitly "Christian" counseling in areas of emotional/verbal abuse often serve to perpetuate the cycle.

 

There are millions of counselors who happen to be Christian but practice as secular counselors, not advertising as "Christian" counselors.

 

:iagree:I will also, tell you that some of the best counseling I got was from a secualr couselor I did not know was christian.

[LaissezFaire]

This is a strange question! Of course emotional abuse is real? How could it not be real?

 

To me that is like asking if tears from emotional pain are real as compared to tears from stubbing your toe.

Edited September 23, 2010 by LaissezFaire

[Lovedtodeath]

I do.I don't think it is particular comments, but is more a controlling, belittling atmosphere that is created.I don't know the answers to these questions. I will say that we used to be friends with a couple in which the wife was eventually treated for mental illness and later committed suicide. While her condition was attributed to a family history of mental illness, we have always felt that emotional abuse *may* have been a contributing factor. (It's always hard to know for sure what may have gone on behind closed doors.) In any case, it was tragic, so I believe the outcome *can* be quite bad.

While I was seeking advice for my situation I talked to an elder who said that he later realized that he may have contributed to his first wife's suicide. :( He said that some men have to be taught how to handle things and that he has since learned better.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree:Dr. Phil's relationship rescue got my marriage to the other side. This was after I had packed my things. Now we are like perpetual newlyweds. You would never believe that we had this problem or that I was afraid of my husband at one point. Yes it is real, but we were both contributing to it...

 

While I was seeking advice for my situation I talked to an elder who said that he later realized that he may have contributed to his first wife's suicide. :( He said that some men have to be taught how to handle things and that he has since learned better.

We've had the same sort of issues here. A lot of it was that dh just didn't know. He doesn't work the same way I do, he doesn't feel the same things in the same ways. For him, it was constructive criticism. My sense of humor is different from his too and for a long time he took comments seriously that were meant in fun.

 

In other words, we were speaking two different languages.