WWYD? Good grades on daily work, but failed test

[charlotteb]

DS is in 8th grade. To prepare him for high school, I told him that we are no longer going to be re-doing his work if he gets a bad grade. In the past, if he got below a C grade, I would give him a chance to improve it. Well, this week on Math, he was learning about positive and negative terms with regards to multiplying and dividing. He got 100% on his daily work twice, 95% the other two days. Today was his test. Guess what he got- 60% :blink:. He couldn't remember the rules and got several of them wrong. I got very frustrated at him (and even yelled at him) and now I regret it. There are some things going on with friends of ours, so I wonder if this has him distracted today. Part of me really feels bad and wants to let him re-do the test. But part of me thinks that he needs to learn his lesson and stick with the grade. What would you do?

[coffeegal]

For now, let him retake the test, but average the scores. Often in high school my teachers would allow a test to be retaken if the class/student scored poorly, but would average the scores.

[Murphy101]

:bigear:

 

My son is doing great, mid-90s, on his daily math, but rarely getting better than a 75 on the tests, which we consider failing.:confused:

[Belacqua]

Some teachers and professors allow students to drop their lowest test score; maybe that would make him feel better about a rough day but still allow you to maintain your no-retakes policy?

[Teachin'Mine]

I'm not saying that this is what's going on in your situation, but I have heard of kids getting almost consistently correct answers on their daily work, and failing tests. They were using the answer key to assist in their daily work and had learned nothing. My dd does very well on tests, but gets several problems wrong in her lesson work. I don't grade her daily work, and I don't by any means expect her to get them all right. I know there are cases of legitimate test anxiety, but if you can, rule out the possibility of other things too. It may simply be that in his daily work he's relying on being able to reference the rules in the lesson and hasn't taken the time to memorize them.

 

Maybe you can tell him that if he does well on his next text - in other words takes the time to memorize what he needs to know - that then you'll allow him this one chance to re-take the first test. If he doesn't do well on the next test, then it would probably be time to re-evaluate his math work.

 

I just realized that this is 8th grade. If it's not a high school level class, and won't be on his high school transcript, I'd be inclined to leave it alone and stick to what I said. This grade is just for you and him, it won't be seen by anyone and you have a wonderful learning opportunity. It's not the worst thing in the world to fail once in a while, especially if you learn from it, and there are no permanent negative consequences. I'd venture to guess that he'll take what you say seriously and be better prepared for his next test.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Teachin'Mine

[Barb_]

Did he fail because he wasn't trying or because he's hazy on the material? Isn't it more important to ensure he really has the material? Does he know how to study? A firm mathematical foundation and good study habits are more important than preparing a student for high school by allowing a failing grade to stand. If he cares about his grades, a failing grade could overwhelm him and cause him to shut down and stop trying (I'll never pull this out, so forget it). And if he doesn't care about grades, he really isn't learning anything from the failing grade. Grades are a means to an end. They exist to communicate with parents, students, and outside entities how hard the student is trying and how well he grasps the material. They really shouldn't be an end in themselves. Right now, the purpose of grades is to communicate within your homeschool. Letting them stand sort of defeats the purpose, IMO.

 

Barb

[KarenC]

If dd takes a test and scores below a certain amount, then she has to take a daily quiz on the sections she had trouble with until she scores at least 90% 2 days in a row.

 

Karen

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I require my kids to correct their mistakes so that I know they understand the material and get more practice doing the things that are the most difficult for them. I do this on classwork and tests. I would require that he fix the errors, making sure he really understands the material, but wouldn't change his grade.

[Tullia]

This might not be question of whether or not you are being too hard or too easy on your son. Young men of that age seem to go into a foggy brain mode for awhile, and it can be a hugely irritating time for you (and him). There's a cognitive jump required for moving from arithmetic to algebra that also applies between middle and high school level work in other subjects. It's a gradual maturation process that starts slowly...sometimes excruciatingly so. Teaching study skills at that age can be a lot like teaching pre-school skills of brushing teeth, tying shoes, etc.; it's important to be very specific, break things down in small steps, and work alongside him till he's mastered each new task. Sounds, too, like he's learning to juggle outside situations and studying which is another important skill he will need.

 

In college, he will find that some instructors allow the use of notes containing formulas or equations on exams, but others do not. My son has found that either way, it's a good idea to memorize because he can work more quickly on exams when he doesn't have to search his notes or risk having his brain go blank when notes aren't allowed. He usually keeps a sheet of important facts, adds to it, and reviews it often--not just the night before an exam.

 

I'd suggest you allow him to drop his lowest exam grade in this term, which will allow him a decent chance to recover without relaxing your no do-overs policy. However, while many college instructors will drop the lowest exam grade others do not. I'd suggest if you routinely allow him to drop the lowest score that you eventually phase out. Ds says that many of his peers who have become used to having the "crutch" of knowing they can slack off for one exam end up in a panic when they encounter an instructor who counts every exam.

 

I can just about guarantee that your son will be ready for college at the end of the high school process no matter how frustrated you are about this one exam. The thing I tried to remember (sometimes I failed miserably) was that one important goal of high school is to prepare a child to eventually be ready for the realities of college work, but at the same time it's important to look at a disappointing grade not as a failure, but an opportunity to do better next time. Diagnosing problems and finding a strategy for improvement is an art that goes beyond just using an answer key or solutions manual.

 

HTH,

Martha

[Murphy101]

Don't allow use of answer key to check work and I have him correct the tests. We've discussed the importance of paying attention to details in math.

[Moni]

. What would you do?

 

I would repeat the chapter. Or at least the last two weeks of math.

Every day he needs to eventually score 100% on the math assignment. He would re-do the problems until they are correct, all of them, for the Math Day.

 

And then re-test when you get to the test again.

 

Lather Rinse Repeat ;)

 

 

:seeya:

[Nan in Mass]

I would apologize and explain that it is a scary thing to be homeschooling an older child, and that you have been doing a little research and have discovered that many parents panic at the beginning of 8th grade, but that you shouldn't have yelled at him and you are sorry, could you both please overlook it. Then I would tell him that there are many little rules that have to be memorized at the beginning of algebra, and that you think he probably didn't realize that he had to thoroughily memorize them before taking a test without the book to refer to. He might not be used to thinking of math as something that involves memorization and study. Then I would tell him that next test, you will help him pick out what needs to be memorized and help him to figure out how to memorize it and that this is why you started keeping grades now, before it "counts" - you knew it takes some time to learn how to study. If he is seived-brained, like we are in my family, I would show him how to cram right before a test. I can memorize until the cows come home but unless it is something that I have used daily for years, I will not be able to produce it for a test unless I have at least glanced at it within an hour of taking the test. I have a feeling that many teenage brains work like this, even if the teenager later has a much better memory than I and mine are stuck with permanantly. I would give him a chance to look over his crib sheet (his study sheet of bits that need to be memorized) right before the test. Yes, it is sort of defeats the purpose of education, but the whole cumulative grading scenario itself rather does that so I don't feel guilty. I remember my high school math teachers giving us a chance to look over our notes before they passed out the test. I remember them even occasionally asking, "Is everyone ready?" and giving us a few more minutes if we hadn't had a chance to finish our review. I also remember many profs in college letting us make a crib sheet on an index card or one sheet of paper (it had to fit on one side if it was a sheet of paper).

 

If it is any comfort, I got a C- the first term of 8th grade. The teacher told my parents that he had been kind, that I had really gotten a D. After that, when I had "all those little rules", as my son called them, thoroughily memorized, I got A's in math all the way through college. With my sons, we paused after the rules were introduced in the first chapter or so and worked our way through Keys to Algebra 1-3 in order to cement them, and then picked up and finished our regular text book. It might just be that he needs more practice on them to get them to come automatically.

 

This is about where the difference between recognizing something when you see it (familiarity) and being able to produce it cold (really, truly memorized) becomes important. You probably will have to work on that distinction with him. Does he have a method of memorization that works for him? For example, I know that I have to be on my feet walking and I need to use flashcards so I can go both ways and in any order, and I do best if someone else holds the flashcards so it is all oral. My friend memorizes by writing something over and over again. If he hasn't figured out the way he memorizes best, this is a good time to work on that. It is also a good time to work on how to study. I found I had to specifically teach this. I try to get mine (try - sigh) to use the SQ3R method: survey, questions, read, write, review. It takes practice to learn which things in a lesson need to be memorized, how to memorize them, and how to review them so they stay memorized.

 

I panicked a lot in 8th and 9th grade and said all sorts of things I wished I hadn't and wound up apologizing quite a bit. It doesn't seem to have done any lasting damage to our relationship. It will probably be ok.

 

Nan

Edited September 17, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[Molly]

I wasn't going to reply as I'm not at that stage yet, but just had a thought. Feel free to ignore it.

 

Perhaps for this year, before each test go over the rules with him just to clarify in his mind what it is he is doing. Just that wee reminder may help him with the actual test.

 

Then maybe next year, just encourage him before the test to think about what the rules are. Then by the following year you would hope that he would have learnt to do that without reminding.

[LoriM]

I just wanted to say I agree entirely with Nan. :) She's a genius, and you should listen to her.

 

LoriM

 

PS As far as the "grade" bit goes, I teach in a school. I allow corrections on daily homework to bring homework back up to 100%, but on tests only "halfway" to 100%. So, I'd let him fix it, and give him an 80%. And I'd probably include at least 5 problems from this test on the next one.

[AnitaMcC]

DS is in 8th grade. To prepare him for high school, I told him that we are no longer going to be re-doing his work if he gets a bad grade. In the past, if he got below a C grade, I would give him a chance to improve it. Well, this week on Math, he was learning about positive and negative terms with regards to multiplying and dividing. He got 100% on his daily work twice, 95% the other two days. Today was his test. Guess what he got- 60% :blink:. He couldn't remember the rules and got several of them wrong. I got very frustrated at him (and even yelled at him) and now I regret it. There are some things going on with friends of ours, so I wonder if this has him distracted today. Part of me really feels bad and wants to let him re-do the test. But part of me thinks that he needs to learn his lesson and stick with the grade. What would you do?

 

 

There are many procedures that are often done in high school and college classes...

 

Some professors allow students to redo poor grade work and then average the original with the re-do for a grade.

 

Some professors drop lowest scores for one or two quizzes and/or exam per semester/course.

 

Others professors offer extra credit opportunities.

 

Some professors offer many points throughout the course that a low grade on one exam won't have a huge impact. So if you are offering 8 exams over the course... and one exam is a 60 but the rest are 95's... the overall exam grades would be 91%. Then add in other points possible to earn and the one low exam score won't really matter.

 

But IMO, regardless keeping grades... I would have him redo the lessons and test just to make sure he understands the material.

 

One rule of thumb here for us... especially in writing, math, and science.... my kids must redo lessons for quiz/test scores below 85%. The re-do won't count in their overall grades... but I do want them to master the material.

[Brindee]

I just wanted to say I agree entirely with Nan. :) She's a genius, and you should listen to her.

 

LoriM

 

PS As far as the "grade" bit goes, I teach in a school. I allow corrections on daily homework to bring homework back up to 100%, but on tests only "halfway" to 100%. So, I'd let him fix it, and give him an 80%. And I'd probably include at least 5 problems from this test on the next one.

:iagree: with what Lori said about Nan! :001_smile:

 

I also agree with what she said in her ps! :001_smile:

[Corraleno]

:iagree: with what Lori said about Nan! :001_smile:

:iagree: with Brindee agreeing with Lori D who agreed with what Nan said. I agree with everything Nan said, and I agree with Lori that Nan is a genius and you should listen to her. :D

 

Jackie

[Janice in NJ]

deleted

[mooooom]

reviewing/studying for a test. It's really easy to review a bit from the day before when you are sitting down to start a new lesson. Maybe you need to remind him that a test is coming and give him a little time to sit down and review the material before handing him the test.

[TravelingChris]

A way I do retests and it is a policy in my house, is something I picked up from my geometry teacher a long time ago= I allow correction (depending on the material) but maximum half points on the corrected problems. That means that if a student got 70 originally, they can get a maximum of 85 with correction.

 

HO\owever, I agree with pps about making sure he isn't cheating. I also agree with others that the important thing is that he learns the lesson. Nan had a very good way of putting it.

[Stacy in NJ]

test taking ability. He's taking a math and science class online with Potter's School, and there will be no re-taking or second chances on tests. I intend on helping him study and creating memory cards for terms and definitions he needs to memorize.

 

But, basically, I'm in the same boat. :confused:

[Yolanda in Mass]

Did he fail because he wasn't trying or because he's hazy on the material? Isn't it more important to ensure he really has the material? Does he know how to study? A firm mathematical foundation and good study habits are more important than preparing a student for high school by allowing a failing grade to stand. If he cares about his grades, a failing grade could overwhelm him and cause him to shut down and stop trying (I'll never pull this out, so forget it). And if he doesn't care about grades, he really isn't learning anything from the failing grade. Grades are a means to an end. They exist to communicate with parents, students, and outside entities how hard the student is trying and how well he grasps the material. They really shouldn't be an end in themselves. Right now, the purpose of grades is to communicate within your homeschool. Letting them stand sort of defeats the purpose, IMO.

 

Barb

 

:iagree: Use them as a diagnostic tool, not as a weapon.

 

Yolanda

[Storm Bay]

Before high school, we work on mastery and I don't record grades. Anty tests are merely diagnostic. What I would do would be to have my dc go back and really learn the concepts before moving on. I have only used grades as a weapon for my eldest once she was in high school and the problem wasn't her understanding but her work habits. That had to do with drawing all over the page, taking far too long, missing deadlines, etc (not tests, but work in general.)

 

One of the reasons my dc are homeschooled is so that they can learn from their mistakes and master the material (mainly math, grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc have to be mastered here before high school.)

 

However, my eldest, who is a sophomore wanting to return to ps for her junior year, we are handling tests as they do in the ps. The only exception is that she has to have a 90 percent average just to pass at home (she's capable of doing better and I don't want her sliding through without working the way I did).

[Teachin'Mine]

Wow - talk about being outnumbered! :lol:

 

We didn't do any grading throughout elementary, except for high school level courses, until 8th grade. I looked at 8th grade as a wonderful opportunity for her to experience what high school would be like, and to use it as a learning opportunity.

 

When we correct any work, all I do is tell her it's wrong and to try again. It's up to her to find out where she went wrong and to get the answer right and understand before that lesson, or test, is done. I'm happy to help her if she's not understanding something, but more often than not it's just a simple error.

 

The only reason I suggested leaving the score stand is because that's what she told her son would happen. To me, it's important to have what you say mean something. By the same token, I agree that she should apologize for having gotten mad about the situation. Both of those are learning experiences.

 

Except for the one time I've read on here of grades used for admission to a school in Mexico, 8th grade scores don't count. (except for high school level classes) To me, it's an opportunity to let them experience the consequences of a poor grade. If it's because of not understanding something, then we use that to talk about how test shouldn't be taken until she understands the material. I have heard of it being because the student cheated on their lessons and had no idea how to do the work. Rather than it being demoralizing to get a poor grade, the student can see their progress. One test out of a whole year isn't going to affect the grade much one way or the other. But the lesson learned can last forever.

 

Just wanted to explain where my thinking was coming from. :) But there's no one right or wrong way to deal with it. That's the beauty of home schooling. Do what works best for your student and your family. :)

[Laurie4b]

I would apologize and explain that it is a scary thing to be homeschooling an older child, and that you have been doing a little research and have discovered that many parents panic at the beginning of 8th grade, but that you shouldn't have yelled at him and you are sorry, could you both please overlook it. Then I would tell him that there are many little rules that have to be memorized at the beginning of algebra, and that you think he probably didn't realize that he had to thoroughily memorize them before taking a test without the book to refer to. He might not be used to thinking of math as something that involves memorization and study. Then I would tell him that next test, you will help him pick out what needs to be memorized and help him to figure out how to memorize it and that this is why you started keeping grades now, before it "counts" - you knew it takes some time to learn how to study. If he is seived-brained, like we are in my family, I would show him how to cram right before a test. I can memorize until the cows come home but unless it is something that I have used daily for years, I will not be able to produce it for a test unless I have at least glanced at it within an hour of taking the test. I have a feeling that many teenage brains work like this, even if the teenager later has a much better memory than I and mine are stuck with permanantly. I would give him a chance to look over his crib sheet (his study sheet of bits that need to be memorized) right before the test. Yes, it is sort of defeats the purpose of education, but the whole cumulative grading scenario itself rather does that so I don't feel guilty. I remember my high school math teachers giving us a chance to look over our notes before they passed out the test. I remember them even occasionally asking, "Is everyone ready?" and giving us a few more minutes if we hadn't had a chance to finish our review. I also remember many profs in college letting us make a crib sheet on an index card or one sheet of paper (it had to fit on one side if it was a sheet of paper).

 

If it is any comfort, I got a C- the first term of 8th grade. The teacher told my parents that he had been kind, that I had really gotten a D. After that, when I had "all those little rules", as my son called them, thoroughily memorized, I got A's in math all the way through college. With my sons, we paused after the rules were introduced in the first chapter or so and worked our way through Keys to Algebra 1-3 in order to cement them, and then picked up and finished our regular text book. It might just be that he needs more practice on them to get them to come automatically.

 

This is about where the difference between recognizing something when you see it (familiarity) and being able to produce it cold (really, truly memorized) becomes important. You probably will have to work on that distinction with him. Does he have a method of memorization that works for him? For example, I know that I have to be on my feet walking and I need to use flashcards so I can go both ways and in any order, and I do best if someone else holds the flashcards so it is all oral. My friend memorizes by writing something over and over again. If he hasn't figured out the way he memorizes best, this is a good time to work on that. It is also a good time to work on how to study. I found I had to specifically teach this. I try to get mine (try - sigh) to use the SQ3R method: survey, questions, read, write, review. It takes practice to learn which things in a lesson need to be memorized, how to memorize them, and how to review them so they stay memorized.

 

I panicked a lot in 8th and 9th grade and said all sorts of things I wished I hadn't and wound up apologizing quite a bit. It doesn't seem to have done any lasting damage to our relationship. It will probably be ok.

 

Nan

 

Grand advice; both parts.

[Brindee]

:iagree: with Brindee agreeing with Lori D who agreed with what Nan said. I agree with everything Nan said, and I agree with Lori that Nan is a genius and you should listen to her. :D

 

Jackie

:lol: :lol: :lol: