What would happen if the government didn't have the money to....

[iluvmy4blessings]

I think most people view welfare etc. from the perspective of adults using it. There is another aspect to it--kids, elderly and special needs. Having done work with Child Protective Services, I can tell you that without the government I have no earthly clue what all these kids would do who are literally being abandoned by their families. I don't see every church in town standing up and taking over the issue. They may contribute and help but the problem is staggering and overwhelming. There may be individuals who step up to foster/adopt but the truth is there are so many children being abandoned, born addicted to drugs, parents on drugs, parents in prison...and then these kids often end up with numerous physical and emotional problems. Who will take care of them? The system of Child Protective Services is not perfect by a long shot either. So much that needs to change and yet what to do? It's an overwhelming problem. People who are willing to take these kids often get help from CPS like money to pay for daycare etc. Family members who are willing to take these children in (like an aunt taking her neice's kids b/c she is on drugs) Well, she wants to help and will have them placed with her but she can't afford it without food stamps etc. If they don't help her be successful with the placement then who else will take these kids? the streets? It's a broken system but I wonder where is the alternative?. Having worked in this area it has opened my eyes to how many kids are out there that need help.

[Tabrett]

I think most people view welfare etc. from the perspective of adults using it. There is another aspect to it--kids, elderly and special needs. Having done work with Child Protective Services, I can tell you that without the government I have no earthly clue what all these kids would do who are literally being abandoned by their families. I don't see every church in town standing up and taking over the issue. They may contribute and help but the problem is staggering and overwhelming. There may be individuals who step up to foster/adopt but the truth is there are so many children being abandoned, born addicted to drugs, parents on drugs, parents in prison...and then these kids often end up with numerous physical and emotional problems. Who will take care of them? The system of Child Protective Services is not perfect by a long shot either. So much that needs to change and yet what to do? It's an overwhelming problem. People who are willing to take these kids often get help from CPS like money to pay for daycare etc. Family members who are willing to take these children in (like an aunt taking her neice's kids b/c she is on drugs) Well, she wants to help and will have them placed with her but she can't afford it without food stamps etc. If they don't help her be successful with the placement then who else will take these kids? the streets? It's a broken system but I wonder where is the alternative?. Having worked in this area it has opened my eyes to how many kids are out there that need help.

It would be my dearest hope that services to help dc like this would be the very last to go!

[Renee in NC]

Since I am the previous poster, I thought I would reply. I know this happens every day in both Louisiana and Mississippi. I am sure these aren't the only states either. I can give many more examples of not only welfare fraud but also using the system as it is set up, correctly that is, and letting it become a crutch. I gave examples from my own family because I didn't want to just point the finger at everyone else's family. I know firsthand that my brother is following all the guidelines but he could better his life with another job, possibly in a new location, if he couldn't always depend on welfare. Oh, and as a cashier at the only local store in our town in MS, I KNOW people can buy steaks, shrimp (expensive here), etc. with their food card. You are nieve if you think it doesn't happen where you are as well. I honestly think if I was on food stamps, why not if it is allowed. I personally hate it that my dh works hard for our income and it is a special occasion for us to get steaks yet easily for public assistance people to do so.

 

I was saying that *we* (the mooching piglets in this house) are not buying steak and seafood. We are part of the immoral poor who receive food stamps and WE are not buying steak. I have no idea what other people do or don't do because I don't pay attention to others' grocery carts.

 

And, of course, my dh doesn't work hard. The 90 degree heat and the high humidity while he is one of 2 landscapers taking care of 40+ acres of Speedway makes the job so easy, so he doesn't have to work hard. A second job would be nice and he is hoping that he is able to find one once the season starts back up. It's hard though because his job has mandatory 70+ hour weeks starting in January through March, so most employers don't want to hire him.

 

ETA: I don't plan to stay home anymore after this school year. I have a 2 special needs kids currently adjusting to ps and one of my preschoolers will be in K next year, so THEN I can work. As to why I am not working now when dh is home? There are NO JOBS HERE. This is the new reality - it won't take 2 to stay middle class, it will take 2 incomes just to have a basic standard of living.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Renee in FL

[HRAAB]

I was saying that *we* (the mooching piglets in this house) are not buying steak and seafood. We are part of the immoral poor who receive food stamps and WE are not buying steak. I have no idea what other people do or don't do because I don't pay attention to others' grocery carts.

 

And, of course, my dh doesn't work hard. The 90 degree heat and the high humidity while he is one of 2 landscapers taking care of 40+ acres of Speedway makes the job so easy, so he doesn't have to work hard. A second job would be nice and he is hoping that he is able to find one once the season starts back up. It's hard though because his job has mandatory 70+ hour weeks starting in January through March, so most employers don't want to hire him.

 

ETA: I don't plan to stay home anymore after this school year. I have a 2 special needs kids currently adjusting to ps and one of my preschoolers will be in K next year, so THEN I can work. As to why I am not working now when dh is home? There are NO JOBS HERE. This is the new reality - it won't take 2 to stay middle class, it will take 2 incomes just to have a basic standard of living.

 

:grouphug:

[kahlanne]

I was saying that *we* (the mooching piglets in this house) are not buying steak and seafood. We are part of the immoral poor who receive food stamps and WE are not buying steak. I have no idea what other people do or don't do because I don't pay attention to others' grocery carts.

 

And, of course, my dh doesn't work hard. The 90 degree heat and the high humidity while he is one of 2 landscapers taking care of 40+ acres of Speedway makes the job so easy, so he doesn't have to work hard. A second job would be nice and he is hoping that he is able to find one once the season starts back up. It's hard though because his job has mandatory 70+ hour weeks starting in January through March, so most employers don't want to hire him.

 

ETA: I don't plan to stay home anymore after this school year. I have a 2 special needs kids currently adjusting to ps and one of my preschoolers will be in K next year, so THEN I can work. As to why I am not working now when dh is home? There are NO JOBS HERE. This is the new reality - it won't take 2 to stay middle class, it will take 2 incomes just to have a basic standard of living.

 

Renee, I am sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant we as in the the people in your area. I didn't even realize you are on welfare. I also didn't mean to imply that all people are abusing the system or are slackers however there are many that do. It is sad. That is why I said I was torn with my brother. I know there are better options out there for him, even he says so, but he doesn't want to leave the small town he has always lived in to better himself and his family. It is hard but sometimes it is necessary. Yet I also feel like he deserves welfare because he has paid into it for years before taking it and even now pays lots the 6 months that he does work out of the year. I think the system is supposed to work for people who are willing to work and try to better themselves yet I think many times it only is a crutch or abused. Surely there is some way to rework the system so it can work better for the people that need assistance for a time yet keep others from overusing/abusing it.

[Elizabeth in MN]

Since I am the previous poster, I thought I would reply. I know this happens every day in both Louisiana and Mississippi. I am sure these aren't the only states either. I can give many more examples of not only welfare fraud but also using the system as it is set up, correctly that is, and letting it become a crutch. I gave examples from my own family because I didn't want to just point the finger at everyone else's family. I know firsthand that my brother is following all the guidelines but he could better his life with another job, possibly in a new location, if he couldn't always depend on welfare. Oh, and as a cashier at the only local store in our town in MS, I KNOW people can buy steaks, shrimp (expensive here), etc. with their food card. You are naive if you think it doesn't happen where you are as well. I honestly think if I was on food stamps, why not if it is allowed. I personally hate it that my dh works hard for our income and it is a special occasion for us to get steaks yet easily for public assistance people to do so.

 

I'll also step up to the plate and talk about being on food stamps. I can't afford MEAT much less steak or shrimp. My family is mostly vegetarian because beans are inexpensive and I get $300 a month to feed three people. Seems like a large amount until you factor in the fact that I live an hour from Wal-Mart where I *have* to buy my groceries from. Fresh produce is also often out of the question (just today I saw that avocados were "down" to $1.50 each).

[Renee in NC]

Renee, I am sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant we as in the the people in your area. I didn't even realize you are on welfare. I also didn't mean to imply that all people are abusing the system or are slackers however there are many that do. It is sad. That is why I said I was torn with my brother. I know there are better options out there for him, even he says so, but he doesn't want to leave the small town he has always lived in to better himself and his family. It is hard but sometimes it is necessary. Yet I also feel like he deserves welfare because he has paid into it for years before taking it and even now pays lots the 6 months that he does work out of the year. I think the system is supposed to work for people who are willing to work and try to better themselves yet I think many times it only is a crutch or abused. Surely there is some way to rework the system so it can work better for the people that need assistance for a time yet keep others from overusing/abusing it.

 

It is *hard* to leave for better things. When we moved here from NC last year, I had to leave my now 17yo son behind - he didn't want to come and leave his life behind, so he stayed there with his dad. This has been terrible for him (his dad is not a nice person and treats my ds badly.) I am sure your brother feels the same.

 

We came here for a job that we thought had a future. After 6 months at $8 an hour, we realized it wasn't going anywhere. He left there for a $9 an hour job in a kitchen (55 hours per week.) Then he got a "good" job for here at the track for a little better money.

 

We put the dc in school this week. The 2 with special needs will get IEPs and they will adjust. As soon as the year is over, we are going to a new location so dh can go to school and I can go to work FT. We would like to go back to homeschooling eventually, but it will really depend on dh's future salary. I am fully aware that I may be working FT forever.

 

Thank the Lord I have a degree and skills that can get me a job. I will take the CPA exam next spring. Others aren't so blessed - even 2 fulltime incomes around here puts a lot of families at $30K per year. Wages are so low, full-time jobs are scarce, and rents are not affordable.

 

ETA: I was rambling and didn't make a point (normal for me;)) I am a firm believer that on the internet life is so easy. I am not upset by your post or the mooching pigs posts - I have more of a "whatever" attitude. When it comes down to it, I care WAY MORE about feeding my dc than I do about how some segments of the population view those who get assistance.

 

And a funny - my dc are Medicaid-qualified as well. When dh got insurance at his job, we added the dc as we felt it was the right thing to do. My special needs kiddoes then lost their therapies because their insurance wouldn't cover them but since they had insurance Medicaid wouldn't either.

 

So, now they are in ps at a much higher cost to taxpayers than the original therapies were to start with.;)

Edited September 17, 2010 by Renee in FL

[CLHCO]

It would be my dearest hope that services to help dc like this would be the very last to go!

 

They won't, because I don't see many people willing to suffer themselves to avoid it, instead holding out to the bitter end to whatever their pet program happens to be, and the young will be the ones who suffer first when they all fail, because we won't choose between them, really reform them, or do the hard things society needs to do in order to remove the need for them. Our current systems are not sustainable, and that (the issue of children) is the type of thing that breaks my heart. That doesn't mean next week. Perhaps the grim debt reaper will hold off a generation, (doubt it), but sooner or later he'll show up. Or not. Maybe we're on our way to some new enlightenment where we'll live in a cashless society like Star Trek, but I happen to think that's fiction, charming as it sounds.

 

In other words, we can argue until we're blue in the face whether or not the government should or shouldn't do anything, whether or not people are committing fraud, etc. The bottom line is that this debt and these programs of which so many rely upon are not sustainable, regardless of how we feel about the issue, or even what some families honestly do need to survive at the moment. Need it all they want, but it may not be there someday soon. Again, historically that is probably more the rule than the exception where need, (and I mean real need, like food), for certain things is concerned. Spiritually, we must face that.

 

Tough times have happened in history and will happen again. Some of them traumatic. Sometimes good comes of them, and sometimes it just stays nasty for some time. It's impossible to see the future, but it would be nice if people would at least see reality in the moment, that you can't save us from this road by voting on the politician who supports a personal preferred program, (and that means everything from welfare to wars), while ignoring the long term debt consequences, which are often far worse. This road to hell has been paved with a bunch of good intentions.

 

Now, back to the regularly schedule program of putting fingers in ears and giving a "lalalalalala". :sleep:

[Renee in NC]

They won't, because I don't see many people willing to suffer themselves to avoid it, instead holding out to the bitter end to whatever their pet program happens to be, and the young will be the ones who suffer first when they all fail, because we won't choose between them, really reform them, or do the hard things society needs to do in order to remove the need for them. Our current systems are not sustainable, and that (the issue of children) is the type of thing that breaks my heart. That doesn't mean next week. Perhaps the grim debt reaper will hold off a generation, (doubt it), but sooner or later he'll show up. Or not. Maybe we're on our way to some new enlightenment where we'll live in a cashless society like Star Trek, but I happen to think that's fiction, charming as it sounds.

 

In other words, we can argue until we're blue in the face whether or not the government should or shouldn't do anything, whether or not people are committing fraud, etc. The bottom line is that this debt and these programs of which so many rely upon are not sustainable, regardless of how we feel about the issue, or even what some families honestly do need to survive at the moment. Need it all they want, but it may not be there someday soon. Again, historically that is probably more the rule than the exception where need, (and I mean real need, like food), for certain things is concerned. Spiritually, we must face that.

 

Tough times have happened in history and will happen again. Some of them traumatic. Sometimes good comes of them, and sometimes it just stays nasty for some time. It's impossible to see the future, but it would be nice if people would at least see reality in the moment, that you can't save us from this road by voting on the politician who supports a personal preferred program, (and that means everything from welfare to wars), while ignoring the long term debt consequences, which are often far worse. This road to hell has been paved with a bunch of good intentions.

 

Now, back to the regularly schedule program of putting fingers in ears and giving a "lalalalalala". :sleep:

 

I agree - none of this is sustainable. Poverty-related programs are just an easy target.;)

 

I expect to see a day where there isn't any help available. I hope by then *we* are in a position to help others. If nothing else, hopefully we'll have a little land again where we can garden and teach others how to garden. My 12yo can teach people to fish and how to clean and cook them. I can teach people how to raise chickens for meat (and slaughter them.)

 

I don't necessarily agree with your last sentence, though. Most of what has gotten us here had nothing to do with good intentions!

[elizabeth]

I don't understand why everyone continually blames the goverment for not taking care of the poor.

 

It goes back to the industrial revolution. People used to be able to work to eat and live. But corporations took over and screwed that all up. So it's up to people to take care of people. The goverment, at some point, may not. Despite the taxes that we pay - people will be in need. Churches will take money to fund their own institution - just like the govement. It's about people, not government.

 

Seriously???? Please read some history books about the Industrial Revolution and the poorhouses, orphanages, death from being 8 years old and working at a sewing machine for 14 hours a day. Photo essays by Russel Freedman, Jacob Riis and a great little film called Harvest of Shame by Edward R Murrow will disabuse you of any notion that corporations destroyed some idyllic past wherein the poor and uneducated could earn a living. This is a prime example of historical ignorance that cannot continue unabated and unaddressed .

[Karenciavo]

(I'm probably going to get banned)

 

 

Somehow I doubt that. :lol:

[Mergath]

Doesn't fly, general services like the ones you mentioned are used by the general public, not a handful of mooching piglets. I don't mind paying for roads, fire fighters, posts offices.

 

I sure do mind paying for the PS in our state. As landowners the taxes we pay that go to our local ps are astonishing, and I can say now that my kids will never attend. (They're too old.)

 

Mooching piglets, huh? That's how you think of the working poor in this country? You have my pity.

 

Also, your obvious glee at the possible starvation of millions of people- including babies and children- is quite sickening. Have you ever seen the pictures of the years of famine in North Korea? If not, I recommend a quick trip to Google. No one should be praying that things like that happen here just so that those with more don't have to be "bothered" by the poor any longer. It's that mindset that caused many of our problems in the workplace. The US has a record number of people living in poverty because of those at the top, not because of those at the bottom.

 

What I don't understand is why those complaining about the poor using so much government money don't look first to our unnecessary wars. We really do have a lot in common with North Korea, after all. Both countries spend obscene amounts of money on bloated militaries at the expense of the people. And if it continues, we're going to end up just like them, with dead babies lying in the streets.

 

Of course, that's what some of you are hoping for.

[elizabeth]

I am glad to pay taxes for public schools as pure self interest dictates that our lovely city would suffer from exponential crime rates, all manner of social ills including unvaccinated children spreading diseases that have been abolished except in third world countries, theft from hunger as the hot lunch they eat might well be the only food the students eat that day, widespread ignorance, the list is endless. Of course it is the right thing to do as well as the fact that many, many people have pulled their families out of poverty through the public school system which serves as the floor beneath which we will let no person fall. Look at third world countries where they have no public school system those poor souls stand not a chance of making it past 30. Just my .02.

[pqr]

Originally Posted by Remudamom

Doesn't fly, general services like the ones you mentioned are used by the general public, not a handful of mooching piglets. I don't mind paying for roads, fire fighters, posts offices.

 

I sure do mind paying for the PS in our state. As landowners the taxes we pay that go to our local ps are astonishing, and I can say now that my kids will never attend. (They're too old.)

 

Mooching piglets, huh? That's how you think of the working poor in this country? You have my pity.

 

Also, your obvious glee at the possible starvation of millions of people- including babies and children- is quite sickening. Have you ever seen the pictures of the years of famine in North Korea? If not, I recommend a quick trip to Google. No one should be praying that things like that happen here just so that those with more don't have to be "bothered" by the poor any longer. It's that mindset that caused many of our problems in the workplace. The US has a record number of people living in poverty because of those at the top, not because of those at the bottom.

 

What I don't understand is why those complaining about the poor using so much government money don't look first to our unnecessary wars. We really do have a lot in common with North Korea, after all. Both countries spend obscene amounts of money on bloated militaries at the expense of the people. And if it continues, we're going to end up just like them, with dead babies lying in the streets.

 

Of course, that's what some of you are hoping for.

 

I think you are reading too much into Remundamom's post. Nowhere do I see her gleefully supporting famine or children starving in the streets. Instead she seems to exhibit a frustration that many feel about fraud in the system and the fact that money is being taken from the taxpayer to provide services to some who choose not to work or cheat the system. This anger is widespread and real.

 

Of course we should try to help those who are struggling and society should help children and the working poor, but those who comit fraud should be sitting in prison and those who choose not to work should not see a red dime.

 

An earlier poster put it best when she said the system is UNsustainable therefore those who cheat and mooch are actually taking food from those who desperately need it. I have never understood why those on some form of welfare are not leading the charge to clean the system up, if only out of self interest.

 

Your last sentence, which I bolded, is frankly outrageous, and if we had anything in common with North Korea (other than the fact that both nations are on the same planet) there would be some secret police arriving at your door within minutes. Of course the people of North Korea are not given access to the net so the point is moot.

Edited September 18, 2010 by pqr

[Mergath]

I think you are reading too much into Remundamom's post. Nowhere do I see her gleefully supporting famine or children starving in the streets. Instead she seems to exhibit a frustration that many feel about fraud in the system and the fact that money is being taken from the taxpayer to provide services to some who choose not to work or cheat the system. This anger is widespread and real.

 

Of course we should try to help those who are struggling and society should help children and the working poor, but those who comit fraud should be sitting in prison and those who choose not to work should not see a red dime.

 

An earlier poster put it best when she said the system is UNsustainable therefore those who cheat and mooch are actually taking food from those who desperately need it. I have never understood why those on some form of welfare are not leading the charge to clean the system up, if only out of self interest.

 

Your last sentence, which I bolded, is frankly outrageous, and if we had anything in common with North Korea (other than the fact that both nations are on the same planet) there would be some secret police arriving at your door within minutes.

 

I'll let her answer for her own statements.

 

As many of the previous posters have stated, welfare fraud accounts for less than 1% of all families using it. That's an awful lot of anger for such a small number of people, and many on this board make no distinction between those committing fraud and those simply using welfare.

 

I don't know anyone "choosing" not to work. There are almost no jobs, and the few that are out there don't pay enough to cover childcare costs. My husband has been looking for months, and all he's found is twenty hours a week at around seven bucks an hour.

 

The system is unsustainable because of the wars our government chose to engage in, and because we live in a capitalist society. Period. It was inevitable that things would turn out like this once technology reached this point. Ever wonder why the more "socialistic" societies, such as all of the Nordic countries, are infinitely more successful than us in almost every area?

 

We actually have quite a lot in common with North Korea, though you have to look below the surface to see it. Do a bit of research. The Two Koreas is a great place to start.

[Mergath]

To be proud of it is even worse, and to lump "welfare" into one category shows a lack of knowledge of welfare in the US.

 

Yup. When posters talk about people who spend their entire lives on welfare and never work, I can't help wondering what decade they last researched the subject.

[pqr]

welfare fraud accounts for less than 1% of all families using it.....We actually have quite a lot in common with North Korea, though you have to look below the surface to see it. Do a bit of research. The Two Koreas is a great place to start.

 

Source, please.

 

In common with N. Korea???

 

How many camps do we have in the US where we torture US political dissidents?

How many people do we shoot who are trying to LEAVE this nation?

How many people have we shot for having a cell phone?

How many millions of US citizens have starved to death due to man made famine?

How many parties do we make illegal?

Are we forced to wear badges showing the "Great Leader"?

Are we allowed to dissent? Can you in N. Korea?

 

We have nothing in common.

 

Have you ever lived in a dictatorship/totalitarian nation? I have and you have no comprehension of how miserable existence is in one of those places, don't mock this country with a comparison like that. We have our problems, God knows, but N. Korea approaches Hell on Earth while as I said we have problems.

Edited September 18, 2010 by pqr

[astrid]

Serfs kept more of the fruits of their labor than the 'working people' of today in the US. Class envy much?

.

 

What a rude thing to say. Are you accusing me of class envy?! Seriously? Wow. I've been accused of a lot of things, but never that.

 

astrid

[astrid]

Okay, clearly you didn't get my drift.

 

You live in 2010. I was commenting on Jenny's post, which referenced medieval times. :001_huh:

 

astrid

[pqr]

Several people posted links to the statistics I mentioned.

 

We torture political dissidents all the time. Many of them are even US citizens. Ever heard of Gitmo?

 

We don't shoot people trying to get out, though there are many Americans who desperately want to be able to shoot those that try to get in.

 

If things continue to go the way they are, and if those against government programs for the poor get their way, we will end up with Americans starving to death. At this point, there are millions of people hanging by a thread, and that thread is food assistance. Cut it, and they'll tumble on down to the bottom.

 

We don't make political parties illegal, but with our two-party system, the rest of them might as well be.

 

What good is dissent if nothing ever changes? The wealthy control the country, thanks to our lovely capitalistic, free-market society. No matter what the rest of us say or do, that's very unlikely to change.

 

Mocking the country? And here I thought I was just dissenting.

 

Comparing N Korean dissidents to terrorists is a real stretch? How many people were TORTURED at Gitmo?

 

Opposing people coming in and SHOOTING people leaving are worlds apart.

 

No one is going to starve in this nation, lets be serious now. No one will starve and no one wants people to starve. Opposing welfare cheats is NOT the same as hoping people starve.

 

Of course things change....for good or bad, health care was a change.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

We actually have quite a lot in common with North Korea, though you have to look below the surface to see it. Do a bit of research. The Two Koreas is a great place to start.

 

 

I was not aware that the US is a communist totalitarian dictatorship.

 

If we were more like North Korea we might not have trouble with either welfare or illegal immigrants. Both populations would be removed from society economically or forcefully. And we certainly wouldn't be discussing the government, let alone having an open discussion on the internet or even having this board as homeschooling certainly would not only be illegal but either punishable or inconceivable (or maybe both).

Edited September 18, 2010 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[astrid]

Doesn't fly, general services like the ones you mentioned are used by the general public, not a handful of mooching piglets. I don't mind paying for roads, fire fighters, posts offices.

 

I sure do mind paying for the PS in our state. As landowners the taxes we pay that go to our local ps are astonishing, and I can say now that my kids will never attend. (They're too old.)

 

I just have to shake my head at the sheer amount of utter disdain and downright hatred so many fine, upstanding Christians have for their fellow human beings.

 

Seriously--- if this sort of attitude is all that is left in this country, if THIS is what it means to be an American, it's time to leave. This makes me so sad.

 

astrid

[pqr]

You can try to twist things around all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that many of the people tortured by our government were completely innocent. Or does just being Muslim qualify one as a terrorist now?

 

The people leaving North Korea were trying to get out so they could have a better life. The people trying to get in here are looking for a better life. Not so far apart.

 

A lot of people want to eliminate welfare programs, period. That's not just opposing welfare cheats, and it will lead to starvation.

 

Any step that takes us closer to universal health care is a good one, in my opinion.

 

What does being Moslem have to do with this thread?

 

People are being SHOT leaving N. Korea, this is policy in that nation. It is not policy to SHOOT illegals coming INTO this nation. Huge huge difference as is that for leaving a nation and illegally entering another.

 

How can you argue that eliminating welfare would lead to starvation and as I said most simply want to eliminate welfare FRAUD. This nation produces an incredible surplus of food, NO ONE WILL STARVE. To argue otherwise ignores facts.

 

1. Rice costs less than a dollar a pound.

2. Beans cost less than a dollar a pound.

3. One can eat in an all you can eat buffet for $7.99 and get an entire days food (not good food but food)

 

To starve would be nigh on impossible.

 

To miss out on some of the foods we like...yes.

To eat a poor diet...yes.

To starve....never!

 

This also ignores food kitchens sponsored by charities and churches and the innate goodness of the American people.

[pqr]

Are you claiming that North Korea removes poor people from the population?

 

They are all poor over there and starving. Slave labor is policy.

[Peela]

What I don't understand is why those complaining about the poor using so much government money don't look first to our unnecessary wars. We really do have a lot in common with North Korea, after all. Both countries spend obscene amounts of money on bloated militaries at the expense of the people. And if it continues, we're going to end up just like them, with dead babies lying in the streets.

 

Of course, that's what some of you are hoping for.

 

I don't know if it's what anyone is actually hoping for.....but as a foreigner I wasn't going to bring up the subject of all the money that goes to fighting wars...but it does rather stick out like a sore thumb. Its one thing to have a defence force to defend the homeland...and quite another to do what we western countries have been doing.

 

The thing that seems obvious to many of us is that the whole system needs restructuring from the ground up. If they keep putting bandaids on it, propping it up here and there....it is postponing the inevitable and making it worse.

 

 

No one is going to starve in this nation, lets be serious now. No one will starve and no one wants people to starve. Opposing welfare cheats is NOT the same as hoping people starve.

 

Of course things change....for good or bad, health care was a change.

 

Lets hope you are correct, but it seems to me that actually, famine is a distinct possibility right across western nations. The land is burned out, and if we insist of trucking our food all over the place, once we lose access to cheap fuel....that will be a luxury of the past.

 

Not that it HAS to be. We have the resources to change it...but until people realise the degree to which we are going to need to sacrifice our present lifestyles for the greater good.....the necessary changes wont be put into place.

 

 

 

Until we start thinking 7 generations ahead, like the Native Americans teach, instead of the small minded, short term gains our so called civilisation now considers "progress", we will simply be passing on the problems to the next generation, and each generation, they get worse.

 

However, I do think if one looks beyond the newspapers, there is a LOT of good happening on a grass roots level. Fighting "the system" is the right thing for some people to do...and thank goodness for them....for many of us, we are called to buy local food, grow our gardens, downsize, live more simply....and it is what the masses end up doing that will matter as much as any government policy. Getting upset at governments and welfare cheats is an ineffective use of our energy. Seeing how we ourselves can make a difference is what will make the difference. Carrying resentment is also a waste of energy and we dont make healthy judgements when we come from that place.

[cathmom]

Seriously???? Please read some history books about the Industrial Revolution and the poorhouses, orphanages, death from being 8 years old and working at a sewing machine for 14 hours a day. Photo essays by Russel Freedman, Jacob Riis and a great little film called Harvest of Shame by Edward R Murrow will disabuse you of any notion that corporations destroyed some idyllic past wherein the poor and uneducated could earn a living. This is a prime example of historical ignorance that cannot continue unabated and unaddressed .

 

I think you read this wrong. I think she was saying that BEFORE the industrial revolution people could grow their own food.

[MelanieM]

I just wanted to point out that churches minister to non members and non Christians too.

 

 

Yes, you are correct. I made a comment about Christian churches not being the answer for non-Christians, so I wanted to take a moment to agree that yes, some churches do help wherever help is needed regardless of the religious affiliation of the needy. I know some beautiful people involved in very generous church charities. I still don't think it's a reasonable approach for our society overall, but I want to be clear that I don't think all Christian churches/organizations are worried only about their own congregations.

 

Just to be able to use real numbers when talking about the percentage of welfare recipients committing fraud.

 

Thank you!

 

However, I do think if one looks beyond the newspapers, there is a LOT of good happening on a grass roots level. Fighting "the system" is the right thing for some people to do...and thank goodness for them....for many of us, we are called to buy local food, grow our gardens, downsize, live more simply....and it is what the masses end up doing that will matter as much as any government policy. Getting upset at governments and welfare cheats is an ineffective use of our energy. Seeing how we ourselves can make a difference is what will make the difference. Carrying resentment is also a waste of energy and we dont make healthy judgements when we come from that place.

 

:iagree: Beautiful!

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

The thing that seems obvious to many of us is that the whole system needs restructuring from the ground up. If they keep putting bandaids on it, propping it up here and there....it is postponing the inevitable and making it worse.

 

 

You are correct, the US welfare system needs a total restructuring. One that keeps pace with need, government finances, maintaining honesty in the system and one that recognizes that welfare wasn't meant to be a lifestyle but rather temporary aid. Problem is that the current system is too tied to the political system for the politicians to be motivated enough to fix it. Thus-it is self-perpetuating.

[cathmom]

You are correct, the US welfare system needs a total restructuring. One that keeps pace with need, government finances, maintaining honesty in the system and one that recognizes that welfare wasn't meant to be a lifestyle but rather temporary aid. Problem is that the current system is too tied to the political system for the politicians to be motivated enough to fix it. Thus-it is self-perpetuating.

 

Yes, it needs to be set up so that there is a way to get off of it. It's extremely hard to do so in a lasting way.

[pqr]

I'll be armed and looting daily if that's what it takes to feed my child.

 

You own a gun? Well I am glad that that we agree on that freedom, even if for different reasons.

[amy g.]

I do not see some return to self-sufficiency on the horizon. As someone who wakes up early to milk the cow, it's just too much work for most people.

 

I do believe that there will be people trying to steal, kill and destroy everything my family has worked and sacrificed for.

 

I must ask for more ammo for Christmas.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Shaking in my (very substantial) boots baby!

 

Let's see, if someone shows up threatening me for food and someone honestly asks for help I wonder who I'll decide on?

 

Would those be your riding boots or the mucking out boots? :D

[mirth]

To the op's point, if it ever gets to the point that the tax base does nothing but promote welfare programs and there's still not enough $, then people/entities with means (the tax base) will leave in droves. The problem is not self-perpetuating. Abuse of the welfare system will make it self-extinguishing.

[pqr]

For someone who looks so disdainfully at those who would choose looting over begging, you sure seem eager for violence.

 

 

Looting is stealing. Yes there is a difference between stealing and asking for help.

[Daisy]

To the op's point, if it ever gets to the point that the tax base does nothing but promote welfare programs and there's still not enough $, then people/entities with means (the tax base) will leave in droves. The problem is not self-perpetuating. Abuse of the welfare system will make it self-extinguishing.

 

Which is why in some states middle & upper class families are already leaving in droves.

[pqr]

Which is why in some states middle & upper class families are already leaving in droves.

 

 

Exactly.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

And when the government crashes and everything tumbles down, do you expect those with no food for their children to just sit on their hands and wait for someone to happen on by? I'll be armed and looting daily if that's what it takes to feed my child.

 

For someone who looks so disdainfully at those who would choose looting over begging, you sure seem eager for violence.

 

Looting is stealing. Yes there is a difference between stealing and asking for help.

 

 

Looting is stealing but in reference to the 1st post on this--that would be armed robbery--which is a whole 'nother thing.

[mirth]

The world might look very different if you end up being the person who has to choose between begging or looting.

 

Would it look so different that this person could fail to consider how to grow one's own food before doing either?

[Audrey]

 

I do believe that there will be people trying to steal, kill and destroy everything my family has worked and sacrificed for.

 

 

 

 

Yes. I sometimes have nightmares that a bunch of desperate americans eventually invade and try to pull that same thing on my farm.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Despite what certain religious groups preach about the subject, morality becomes very relative when your child is starving. I would look much more favorably upon the person who would steal to keep their child alive than I would the person who would let him die in order to preserve some black and white view of morality.

 

 

So you are going to steal from my kids' mouths? How is that moral, right or just? And you would think less of me for trying to stop you?

[pqr]

It certainly could. If our whole country collapsed, things could be bad in an amazing multitude of ways.

 

So perhaps by responsible management of our finances and not spending billions that we do not have we can strengthen our nation. Perhaps by fighting fraud in wellfare we can ensure that those in genuine need are helped while criminals are prosecuted.

 

Perhaps if the CBO says we can not afforrd this "health care" reform and that instead of saving money it will cost billions we should think and not let emotion run riot.

[pqr]

I don't think very highly of a God who preordains poverty for anyone. Luck and capitalism have more to do with it, in my opinion.

 

 

It is not capitalism in North Korea. You still have not explained the commonality between the two nations but capitalism certainly is not a factor there.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Of course not. I'm going to steal from the top one percent that have ninety percent of the food stashed away for themselves.

 

And why isn't that me and why is that ok? A statement like this smacks of communism and that is an economic system that did absolutely nothing for the people of Russia and totally collapsed in under a century. Not an economic system I care to switch to.

Edited September 18, 2010 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[Audrey]

Of course not. I'm going to steal from the top one percent that have ninety percent of the food stashed away for themselves.

 

 

Just come here. You, I would share with gladly. :001_smile:

[pqr]

Of course not. I'm going to steal from the top one percent that have ninety percent of the food stashed away for themselves.

Where do you get your figures?

 

Stop with the class hatred, it makes for a poor argument.

[pqr]

Perhaps we should focus on unnecessary wars instead of welfare fraud if we really want to make a difference. Perhaps we should focus on providing health care for people instead of taking life from people on the other side of the world.

 

 

Red herring, nothing more.

[elizabeth]

Quit watching Glenn Beck and you will not all sound completely, truly, mad as hatters .The Red Scare was nothing compared to the neurotic drivel I am reading here. While you are likely being careful with your funds and lifestyle choices Beck cannot carry his loot due to all the antique gold coins he has been huckstering fools to purchase. At some point someone has to speak plain truth to the majority . Just because you believe something and all your buddies believe it does not make it so. FWIW I am so grateful to be reminded why I do not ever need to waste my time or intellect in this void .

[pqr]

Not if you compare the amount spent on people who commit welfare fraud to the amount wasted on wars. I think you'll find one is a bit higher than the other.

 

That is for another thread and an attempt to change the course of this discussion. BTW Iraq has, according to the CBO, cost less than the "stimulus" plan but that too is another thread.

[Audrey]

Are any of them old farm women?:lol:

 

 

I would hope an old farm woman would have more respect for a fellow old farm woman than to try that.

[pqr]

Quit watching Glenn Beck and you will not all sound completely, truly, mad as hatters .The Red Scare was nothing compared to the neurotic drivel I am reading here. While you are likely being careful with your funds and lifestyle choices Beck cannot carry his loot due to all the antique gold coins he has been huckstering fools to purchase. At some point someone has to speak plain truth to the majority . Just because you believe something and all your buddies believe it does not make it so. FWIW I am so grateful to be reminded why I do not ever need to waste my time or intellect in this void .

 

What does Beck have to to with anything and does he really sell ANTIQUE gold coins? Who exactly is a mad hatter? Can you quote the particular post?

 

Mergath may be be wrong in comparing the US to N Korea but I do not think she got the idea from Beck.

 

How is a discussion an "intellectual void"? Again can you quote the post?