What would happen if the government didn't have the money to....

[Audrey]

Thank you Audrey. You are right. I do have baggage. I had two miscarriages while I was the youth leader at a previous church. Two of the teen girls got pregnant, had all the ultrasounds they needed and free health care. Eventhough I had insurance, we were stuck with big bills from my emergency dnc after I hemaraged with my second miscarriage.

It wasn't an "oops" we had sex once with the teen girls. They were sleeping with their boyfriends regulary. One moved in with the boyfriend.

It pained me to know that I could provide a good loving home for a baby while silly teens, who wern't emotionally capiable of taking care of themselves, were having babies. I know I shouldn't have felt this way, but I was grieving and feeling like I was being punish for being a responsiable adult and they were rewarded with beautiful babies. I still do sometimes.

 

Thank you for seeing through my words and reminding me why I am so bothered by this. My reason for starting this post was not to bash public assistance, rather it was a desire to see what the future could possiably look like in hopes to prepare.

 

It has become very turned around. I am really worried about the economy and what we need to do to prepare.

 

 

I can certainly understand a need to feel prepared. The best advice I can offer there is to keep being frugal even when you seem to have extra money. Owing less never hurts. Having money on hand always helps. Be cautious in purchasing and in investing. Don't stress and worry about what others are doing or what others have. They are not you and cannot live your life for you, nor can you live their lives for them. Embrace simplicity in your life. Some of the finest things in life are the simplest. Embrace those you love in your life. They will get you through the darkest of times.

[Parrothead]

Several years back I read an article that said (if I recall correctly) that less than 1% of people receiving assistance were committing welfare fraud. I'll try a little Google magic later to see if I can turn up a source for that, or something similar.

 

 

I think part of the problem is that what your average person will see more than anything else is the person(s) milking the system. Unfortunately this 1% brags about how they are milking the system.

 

Back when I was working I worked with a guy who divorced his wife so his wife could receive benefits. They had made some bad decisions and instead of filing bankrupcy, they decided to make it look like she was alone with the children. They got WIC, Medicaid, what ever else they could.

 

So people like that give the system and those that need it a bad reputation. Honestly each one of us here that is home with the kids could do the exact same thing. The only thing stopping us is our integrity.

[pqr]

The only thing stopping us is our integrity.

 

...and that is becoming an increasingly rare commodity.

[Tabrett]

I can certainly understand a need to feel prepared. The best advice I can offer there is to keep being frugal even when you seem to have extra money. Owing less never hurts. Having money on hand always helps. Be cautious in purchasing and in investing. Don't stress and worry about what others are doing or what others have. They are not you and cannot live your life for you, nor can you live their lives for them. Embrace simplicity in your life. Some of the finest things in life are the simplest. Embrace those you love in your life. They will get you through the darkest of times.

 

I hope you take this in a positive way. Sometimes I feel that you and I are like the "Fox and the Hound Dog". We are soooo different in our beliefs and should be enemies, but so much a like! I enjoy being on the post with you.:D

[sarahf.]

The thing about church is that not everyone is associated with one. But of course, if you feel that unwed mothers should suffer the consequences without help so they aren't rewarded for poor behaviour, then it's not a stretch for me to conclude that you don't care much about what happens to the non-Christians out there, either. I imagine we shouldn't be rewarded for our failure to accept Jesus as our personal saviour. ;)

 

I do think it's interesting that everyone always talks about those poor people out there abusing the system and soaking up all the cash, when the reality is that there are far bigger fish eating up the tax payer's money than the small percentage of the population committing welfare fraud. I would hope that if things were really getting that bad that government (which is supposed to be representative of the people) would make feeding citizens a priority over corporate welfare, funding wars, etc.

Thank You! I could not have said it better...I was very flummoxed by the tone of this thread and was having a hard time articulating myself. I glad you could step in for me:)

[amy g.]

I just wanted to point out that churches minister to non members and non Christians too.

 

This is just one example of the outreach at my former church.

 

http://www.palmerchurch.org/ministries/view/17/way_station

 

On the website, you can see some of their other programs as well.

[Ravin]

Tabrett, out of curiosity, did you try to apply for public assistance at those times you mentioned?

 

I have insurance through work--not very good insurance, mind, and I can't afford to insure DD and don't qualify to insure DH because I'm not full time. I DO have medicaid as secondary insurance--which I only qualify for because I'm pregnant and the income levels for pg women are higher than for others. DH and DD didn't qualify even though they're completely uninsured--DD is on the waitlist for the state's CHiP program because they cut funds to the point that it doesn't cover all who need/qualify for it.

 

Oh, and we also applied for food stamps, and qualified--and our monthly allotment is $0. Which is OT but illustrates the absurdities that have resulted from the budget cuts in our state.

 

I say again, read Parable of the Sower. The premise of the book is that it's later this century, and the country has gone down the toilet. The protagonist's parents are college educated, fortunate enough to own their own home, but have no way to provide the same to their children. It's about how a young woman strikes her own path and refuses to give up hope amid the chaos. Great story. The sequel (Parable of the Talents) is good, too, but kind of depressing in a lot of ways.

[Peela]

fund any type of welfare program? If the economy became so bad that there wasn't enough tax revenue to keep social programs going?

 

Do you think this might ever happen?

 

Sure, and I can't see why focusing on the small percentage of people who commit welfare fraud or even milk the system legally, is productive. They are not sending the system broke, at all...as Melanie below says....there are far bigger leaks than welfare fraud.

 

 

 

I do think it's interesting that everyone always talks about those poor people out there abusing the system and soaking up all the cash, when the reality is that there are far bigger fish eating up the tax payer's money than the small percentage of the population committing welfare fraud. I would hope that if things were really getting that bad that government (which is supposed to be representative of the people) would make feeding citizens a priority over corporate welfare, funding wars, etc.

 

:iagree:

 

All in all...on a personal level....the best we can do is get out of debt, stop overspending, learn to live simply including grow our own food in our own yard, and build healthy communities. I know there are many, many people who have stockpiled food and supplies, many who are living off the grid on their acres of homestead etc

It could happen. It has happened in other countries.

I just think its futile to direct negativity toward a small subclass of desperate people who are only a small part of the bigger picture.

[amey311]

I found this site a bit interesting: http://www.anitra.net/homelessness/columns/anitra/eightmyths.html

 

I don't know how credible it is, but it says that the bulk of welfare fraud is committed by the VENDORS, not the people receiving services.

 

http://www.mejp.org/PDF/tanf_facts.pdf - this is only from Maine, but I can't imagine that it's hugely different in all the other states

"Actual fraud is found in only about 2/10th of 1% of all TANF cases—that means that 99.8% of families do not commit fraud."

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24708.htm - according to this it's 0.4% of welfare recipients in Philadelphia (I did the math, using the higher number of cases - they said 200-400 cases out of 95,456 recipients).

 

Just to be able to use real numbers when talking about the percentage of welfare recipients committing fraud.

[Renee in NC]

I found this site a bit interesting: http://www.anitra.net/homelessness/columns/anitra/eightmyths.html

 

I don't know how credible it is, but it says that the bulk of welfare fraud is committed by the VENDORS, not the people receiving services.

 

http://www.mejp.org/PDF/tanf_facts.pdf - this is only from Maine, but I can't imagine that it's hugely different in all the other states

"Actual fraud is found in only about 2/10th of 1% of all TANF cases—that means that 99.8% of families do not commit fraud."

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article24708.htm - according to this it's 0.4% of welfare recipients in Philadelphia (I did the math, using the higher number of cases - they said 200-400 cases out of 95,456 recipients).

 

Just to be able to use real numbers when talking about the percentage of welfare recipients committing fraud.

 

What is the definition of fraud? Is babysitting under the table fraud if you don't report the income? (If you are required to - here in FL we don't have to unless our income gets *really* high.) Or do they mean people using multiple identities? People living in the home that they don't report? Or people receiving cash help from boyfriends/relatives that isn't reported?

[....]

I am really worried about the economy and what we need to do to prepare.

 

Tabrett, the only thing you can really control is your own household. The best thing you can spend your energy on right now is building an emergency fund (in a savings account, so you can get to it when your transmission goes out, etc) and pay off any debts that you have as quickly as possible. You - yourself - can not control the World Economy. Even though some of us women think we can...:tongue_smilie:

 

If you need to listen to a non-gloom-and-doom financial expert, Dave Ramsey has a radio show and it's very positive. He talks a lot about how to fix your own personal situation and it's very motivating.

 

And listen to Bob Marley...lots and lot of Bob Marley...:D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

"I, who had babies while married, could not afford the type of health care given to unwed teens. I had my babies at a birthing center, and dared not ask for anesthesia, because I only had enough money to pay for the basic package. I refused suggested ultrasound because I didn't have the money."

 

:grouphug:

 

That must have been horribly traumatic for you. This is why I cast my vote for politicians who believe that adequate health care is the right of EVERY American citizen. You. Me. The pregnant teenager. I'm not interested in whatever moral distinctions some may see between us - a healer's job is to heal, and it would be my pleasure and my privilege as a taxpayer to stop funding wars and start funding a functional public health system.

 

:iagree::hurray:

[pqr]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"I, who had babies while married, could not afford the type of health care given to unwed teens. I had my babies at a birthing center, and dared not ask for anesthesia, because I only had enough money to pay for the basic package. I refused suggested ultrasound because I didn't have the money."

 

:grouphug:

 

That must have been horribly traumatic for you. This is why I cast my vote for politicians who believe that adequate health care is the right of EVERY American citizen. You. Me. The pregnant teenager. I'm not interested in whatever moral distinctions some may see between us - a healer's job is to heal, and it would be my pleasure and my privilege as a taxpayer to stop funding wars and start funding a functional public health system.

 

:iagree::hurray:

 

I agree, on first blush the sentiment sounds wonderful, but who is going to pay for this? Why are we limiting it to only? Americans? How about illegals? How about the taxpayers right to property being infringed upon in order to pay for services for someone else? The CBO has already come out and said that the plan we now have is going to raise budgetary costs not lower them The government is spending far more than it should which will eventually result in fiscal collapse. Wonderful sentiments do nothing but speed this process.

 

 

The OP asked what will happen if the government runs out of money, we may soon find out.

 

As for me I am perfectly happy to fund our Defense as that trully is a role of government whereas I find no reference to the role of government being the provision of universal and free healthcare.

Edited September 17, 2010 by pqr

[LizzyBee]

As for the Church providing social services... what about those who are not religious? Do they not deserve help also?

 

I don't know what other churches do, but our church has no requirement that one has to be a Christian to use our food pantry or clothing exchange. I would hope that any church that has such programs would welcome anyone in the community to use them.

[pqr]

I don't know what other churches do, but our church has no requirement that one has to be a Christian to use our food pantry or clothing exchange. I would hope that any church that has such programs would welcome anyone in the community to use them.

 

I have never heard of a church conducting a religious litmus test before giving out food.

[Ray]

"What would happen if the government didn't have the money to...."

It would be 13 Trillion dollars in debt:tongue_smilie:

[pqr]

"What would happen if the government didn't have the money to...."

It would be 13 Trillion dollars in debt:tongue_smilie:

 

 

Sometimes that needs to be written out.

 

$13,000,000,000,000

[Tabrett]

Tabrett, out of curiosity, did you try to apply for public assistance at those times you mentioned?

 

I have insurance through work--not very good insurance, mind, and I can't afford to insure DD and don't qualify to insure DH because I'm not full time. I DO have medicaid as secondary insurance--which I only qualify for because I'm pregnant and the income levels for pg women are higher than for others. DH and DD didn't qualify even though they're completely uninsured--DD is on the waitlist for the state's CHiP program because they cut funds to the point that it doesn't cover all who need/qualify for it.

 

Oh, and we also applied for food stamps, and qualified--and our monthly allotment is $0. Which is OT but illustrates the absurdities that have resulted from the budget cuts in our state.

 

This is not off topic at all. It was my original question. My post has taken a very nasty turn to look like I was trying to ask about people milking the system. Although that does bother me, it had nothing to do with the reason I posted the question.

 

This is what I was trying to ask about in my original post. Your dd can't get the needed medical coverage because there is a waiting list. She qualifies, but can't receive it because of cutbacks. You qualify for food stamps and can't get them. :grouphug:

 

How are you eating? What are you able to do to keep your family fed?

 

This is what is scaring me. When people who would normally never NEED help start to NEED help, what is going to happen? The country can barely fund all the people who needed help before the economy collapsed. How are they going to help the middle class when they start to need help like what has happened to you?

 

I did get public assistance after the birth of my first dc. We had insurance, but it didn't cover well baby care. The well baby care was $4000.

At the time my dh was in a master's degree program and worked part-time. I didn't have a job because I had been working at a temp service until I had the baby. As low as our income was, the only reason we qualified for help to pay the medical bill was because one of our cars was owned by my dh's mom and not us. You were only allowed to have one car per family. This took place in Louisville, KY in 1994. I was told to go the wic office and apply. The only reason I received wic was because I weighted to little BEFORE I had my baby. I was considered at risk. That was crazy. I only did one month of wic because I did not want to go back down to the office and stand in line and have them judge me. The people at both offices were not nice to me at all and made me feel like I was trying to steel from them! I know that that is not a normal experience,but it really made an impression on me.

 

At the beginning of this year, dh had a 50% wage cut. We went from $60k to $30k over night. Dh also works a part-time (10 hour week) teaching position at a local college. In March dh's job was completely terminated.

BUT because he had a part-time job we did not qualify for unemployment. Unemployment compensation has a very low cap where I live. It was the same amount as dh made at his part-time job. So dh choose to work instead of quitting his PT job and taking unemployment.

He has been taking small jobs here and there to keep paying the bills. We have also emptied out our measly retirement. We really need to sell out house to get out of the mortgage, but we owe more than it is worth. We bought the house, at a price we could afford, at a good value, put 20% down, have a good interest rate and don't have any second mortgages. We did everything correctly.

 

How much longer can we hang on?

 

This is why I am asking the questions. Many people who have followed all the rules and have done everything correctly are loosing it all. We are normally the ones who pay taxes to help the needy (which I have NO problem with). But so MANY of the people in the middle income bracket are loosing everything.

 

If the middle income doesn't exist anymore.......will we turn into a 3rd world nation? If the middle income doesn't exist anymore will there be any money to fund programs to help people?

 

PS I forgot to mention I do use a form of public assistance right now! We are on cobra insurance and there is a subsidy that pays for about maybe 75% of the monthly payment. With my assistance, I am paying about $380 a month and am very thankful. I tried to get Christian med-share, but my dd broke her arm 2 weeks before we were qualified. After our subsidy ends, we will go onto Christian Medi-share. Again, I am not against public assistance.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Tabrett

[kahlanne]

I grew up in a very small rural town in MS and now live outside Baton Rouge, LA. I know firsthand how many people "fraud" the system. Growing up, we were always on one gov. welfare program or another because my dad would work long enough to "get hurt" and file disability. He would also choose jobs based on the fact that they were regular layoffs so he could get unemployment regularly. Sometimes he just chose to not work.

 

As an adult, I worked with a woman that was paid cash at a local restaraunt so she could be on gov. assistance. It was fairly easy. She had 8 kids all by different men. She was quick to point out to "newbies" how to work the system to get "free" stuff. Yet every Friday she was at the local Piggly Wiggly buying the best steaks and shrimp with her foodstamps. Oh, and did I mention she also bought and sold food stamps. (this can't be done now with the card)

 

My brother's job is a great paying job six months out of the year. I mean terrific but he is layed off regularly and in spurts. Because of this, he is able to get unemployment. This last time he wasn't able to get unemployment, mistake where they overpaid before and he has to pay them back, and he applied for foodstamps. His children were born on medicaid and are still on it. They are 8 and 6. He turns down insurance at work because he can't afford it when he is layed off. On this issue, I am torn. He is doing everything by the book and while working pays lots of taxes which is why I think the program is good for him. It is the people that never pay in taxes using it for years that I have a problem with. However, I am torn because I know he has had the opportunity to move to another area in the state or even out of state for a huge pay increase that is steady. He refuses because he doesn't want to live away. I understand having done so myself. Dh graduated college, which we paid for entirely, and due to the offers in state being low, we moved to Louisiana. It is a difficult thing to do but when it came down to it, it was necessary to support our family without assistance.

 

My other brother is now married. His girlfriend was pregnant before they married and their child is on assistance. She was working but her job was terminated and she decided to go back to college. Of course she gets gov assistance. The thing is she is quick to say that while she likes college, she has no intention of becoming a teacher in the end. She will go as long as it is free and she is allowed to collect assistance though. My brother makes minimum wage with no insurance. There are not that many jobs in the area and he has looked but again they don't want to move to better themselves. He also didn't want to "waste time" in school to get a better job when he was younger. Now he regrets it and unless some terrific job comes around, he is bound to live on welfare. However, it isn't so bad, he gets plenty of foodstamps and wic. He can run their daughter to the emergency room over a sniffle. Part of their rent is paid for. Each year he gets a large tax refund even though he doesn't pay in near the amount that he gets.

 

I could go on and on with stories like this. I feel bad somewhat discussing my brothers but it is what it is. The thing is, they are not frauding the system but using it just as it is set up. Many other stories I personally know are frauding the system.

 

Oh, and for Louisiana, when Katrina hit, you should have seen the lines of people getting free money in this area even though most didn't have damages.

[Tabrett]

Sure, and I can't see why focusing on the small percentage of people who commit welfare fraud or even milk the system legally, is productive. They are not sending the system broke, at all...as Melanie below says....there are far bigger leaks than welfare fraud.

 

Peela, the quote you posted didn't didn't say anything at all about people who committed welfare fraud. My original question had nothing to do about welfare fraud. Unfortunately, the post has taken an ugly turn.:glare: I don't have a problem with people receiving public assistance.

 

My concern is what is going to happen when the middle income people loose all their jobs and end up taking $10-$15/hr jobs to try to pay their bills, many middle income families will NEED public assistance and there will be no more revenue to fund programs for anyone because there will be no more job that pay a living wage.

 

Low income jobs=a need for public assistance. Public assistance needs high paying jobs to fund the program. No high paying jobs=no public assistance.

 

What happens to a country when this happens? I know you live in Australia and I don't know what the economy is like there. Is it as bad as it is here in the states? Are you worried where you live?

[ciyates]

I volunteer to work with the Pregnancy care center, a woman's shelter and I teach finance class for different programs. I often hear it is better for me financial to stay on this program than it is to get a job. I have a friend who has been unemployed for 2 years but isn't interested in getting off of unemployment because she will receive it for another year and this allows her to stay home and take care of family needs. I don't think we are helping anyone by saying it is okay if you make a mistake we will take care of you in a relatively comfortable lifestyle. There is a big difference between enabling someone and offering a helping hand. Unfortunately our welfare system has turned to enabling someone instead of helping them.

 

But back to the originally topic at hand. The US doesn't not currently have the money to support the programs we offer. As a matter of fact this is the first year the Social Security has started to call all of the IOUs from the government.

 

Lets just say that our taxes were cut the amount that is currently being paid into welfare programs. I am going to pick on Social Security because I have those numbers easily available. My family alone would have more than 600 dollars of disposable income per month. This would be able to invest, save or spend. Now lets say that 25% of the US population is in the same boat. If we agree that the US population is right around 300 million that would equal 750,000. Multiply that by 600 and you get 450 million extra into the economy each month. That would mean more jobs for people. More jobs less need for welfare. It is a cycle. If you tax me to pay for someone else I can't spend so there are less jobs. Less jobs equal more welfare equals more taxes. We are in a hole and keep digging.

[Peela]

Peela, the quote you posted didn't didn't say anything at all about people who committed welfare fraud. My original question had nothing to do about welfare fraud. Unfortunately, the post has taken an ugly turn.:glare: I don't have a problem with people receiving public assistance.

 

My concern is what is going to happen when the middle income people loose all their jobs and end up taking $10-$15/hr jobs to try to pay their bills, many middle income families will NEED public assistance and there will be no more revenue to fund programs for anyone because there will be no more job that pay a living wage.

 

Low income jobs=a need for public assistance. Public assistance needs high paying jobs to fund the program. No high paying jobs=no public assistance.

 

What happens to a country when this happens? I know you live in Australia and I don't know what the economy is like there. Is it as bad as it is here in the states? Are you worried where you live?

 

I think it is hitting the States harder than here...in fact I think our economy is still doing well. However the cost of living is rising steeply and basics are getting more expensive. It is affecting us (our own income has dropped and costs have risen- we are not as well off as we were a year ago and I have taken on extra work)...but nothing like what it seems to be getting like over there. Our economy is in better shape.

 

The way I see it is that it is inevitable that there be a rebalancing because the middle class generally live unsustainable lifestyles anyway. Unsustainable personally, and unsustainable for the planet. Reading Dave Ramsey these last months has put some things in perspective for me....many, perhaps most, "middle class" people are living middle class lifestyles because of the amount of debt they are in ...not because they are actually wealthy. (It has given me a different perspective on the people in the mansions in my street). If one is actually wealthy, one can sell up or cut back and live more sensibly for the times...if one is in debt to the eyeballs, I am not sure that a struggling economy can afford to feed us while we pay our extravagent mortgages etc.

I think we have unrealistic expectations- those of us who identify with being middle class. Dh and I live in a wealthy area, rent, live well...but no debt apart from 2 investment properties that we would sell if we could, but at this stage, its not worth trying. We are in a situation where we could sell our possessions and move to the bush if it came to that. We are in touch with the fact that things might get bad, and we discuss it and our options.

I think we (as Westerners) have built our lifestyles too out of touch with a very grounded reality- too much debt, too much sense of entitlement, way too much consumerism. Yes, I do think there will be a rebalancing and it will be difficult for many. No one deserves it, but that won't stop it from happening.

I know many people who are building food gardens where there used to be lawn, planting fruit trees, and trying to live more sustainably. It just seems to be the way things are heading and it seems wise to get in there before it gets to the point where we need them for our very survival, and there are people roaming the streets hungry and willing to commit crimes just to eat. It seems sensible to plan for a future than involves food shortages and basically, difficult times. At the very least, if it doesnt occur, we will be better off anyway.

If welfare dries up? It could happen. But if the sun is shining and there is water and fertile earth (a big if in many places), we can grow food. We can grow food now. Why are we so dependent on food being grown by huge farms anyway?

Dh and I discuss it quite often. How we could go bush and hunt and survive - if it really came to that. I think it is highly likely that there will be famine in the future. It already exists in many parts of the planet- why would be in the western countries be immune? We havent shown a lot of common sense in so many areas. We put a lot of things before taking good care of ourselves and making sure our food is healthy and our water is clean. We poison our water and put poisons on the food and treat the animals badly.

If there is such a thing as karma...we in the west have a bit coming our way.

So yes...it could happen. Its worth considering, for all of us.

[Renee in NC]

Peela, the quote you posted didn't didn't say anything at all about people who committed welfare fraud. My original question had nothing to do about welfare fraud. Unfortunately, the post has taken an ugly turn.:glare: I don't have a problem with people receiving public assistance.

 

My concern is what is going to happen when the middle income people loose all their jobs and end up taking $10-$15/hr jobs to try to pay their bills, many middle income families will NEED public assistance and there will be no more revenue to fund programs for anyone because there will be no more job that pay a living wage.

 

Low income jobs=a need for public assistance. Public assistance needs high paying jobs to fund the program. No high paying jobs=no public assistance.

 

What happens to a country when this happens? I know you live in Australia and I don't know what the economy is like there. Is it as bad as it is here in the states? Are you worried where you live?

 

You realize that unless you have multiple children that $10-15 an hour won't qualify you for any assistance? While the *gross* amount of income for food stamp eligibility has risen to 200% of the poverty level, the *net* has not.

 

And trust me, to the previous poster talking about steaks and seafood - that isn't happening here.

[cathmom]

The way I see it is that it is inevitable that there be a rebalancing because the middle class generally live unsustainable lifestyles anyway. Unsustainable personally, and unsustainable for the planet. Reading Dave Ramsey these last months has put some things in perspective for me....many, perhaps most, "middle class" people are living middle class lifestyles because of the amount of debt they are in ...not because they are actually wealthy. (It has given me a different perspective on the people in the mansions in my street). If one is actually wealthy, one can sell up or cut back and live more sensibly for the times...if one is in debt to the eyeballs, I am not sure that a struggling economy can afford to feed us while we pay our extravagent mortgages etc.

I think we have unrealistic expectations- those of us who identify with being middle class. Dh and I live in a wealthy area, rent, live well...but no debt apart from 2 investment properties that we would sell if we could, but at this stage, its not worth trying. We are in a situation where we could sell our possessions and move to the bush if it came to that. We are in touch with the fact that things might get bad, and we discuss it and our options.

I think we (as Westerners) have built our lifestyles too out of touch with a very grounded reality- too much debt, too much sense of entitlement, way too much consumerism. Yes, I do think there will be a rebalancing and it will be difficult for many. No one deserves it, but that won't stop it from happening.

I know many people who are building food gardens where there used to be lawn, planting fruit trees, and trying to live more sustainably. It just seems to be the way things are heading and it seems wise to get in there before it gets to the point where we need them for our very survival, and there are people roaming the streets hungry and willing to commit crimes just to eat. It seems sensible to plan for a future than involves food shortages and basically, difficult times. At the very least, if it doesnt occur, we will be better off anyway.

If welfare dries up? It could happen. But if the sun is shining and there is water and fertile earth (a big if in many places), we can grow food. We can grow food now. Why are we so dependent on food being grown by huge farms anyway?

Dh and I discuss it quite often. How we could go bush and hunt and survive - if it really came to that. I think it is highly likely that there will be famine in the future. It already exists in many parts of the planet- why would be in the western countries be immune? We havent shown a lot of common sense in so many areas. We put a lot of things before taking good care of ourselves and making sure our food is healthy and our water is clean. We poison our water and put poisons on the food and treat the animals badly.

If there is such a thing as karma...we in the west have a bit coming our way.

So yes...it could happen. Its worth considering, for all of us.

 

Great post!

[Robin's Song]

nm

Edited September 17, 2010 by Robin's Song
broke my rule about posting on controversial threads!

[FaithManor]

I agree with Peela. Debt creates the illusion of a middle class but it is just that and so like smoke and mirrors, doesn't take much before the truth shines through and that's where America is at now.

 

Yes, I do believe the government will run out of money....printing money that is not backed by gold or silver or some sort of stable product only ends in run-a-way inflation and a dollar that isn't worth a cent anywhere else.

 

I think Greece's situation is very telling......they are eliminating universal healthcare, people are rioting in the streets because the lifestyle they have lived is not sustainable in reality, and the Euro is faltering with a number of other European nations, Spain for one, feeling the pinch. This is a country that can't go around their problems, they are now going to have to go through....so far the U.S. has skirted around the issues but we are fast approaching, just like the Great Depression, a time of having to go through it.

 

The single biggest issue now is that in the 1930's, the government had money. Real money backed by something and it meant something....it had global value. Such is now not the case. Debt is not an asset! It's a noble thing to want to bail out banks and manufacturing industries so people do not lose their jobs, to not cut back on social security and medicare/medicaid, to give out risky business loans, fund questionable grant studies, build 100 million dollar naval destroyers that the navy doesn't want so that someone doesn't lose his/her job, etc. but at some point, if all of that is funded by debt and not by a valuable, real dollar then it will eventually be unsustainable. The 1930's government had real money for putting men to work....the Hoover Dam, roads, etc. Our government doesn't have this and can't keep this up so people are going to be VERY angry when they discover that the illusion can't be maintained.

 

My big concern is that we will have a HUGE crime rate, rioting, looting, pillaging, etc. The crime rate did not go up during the 1930's but I think it is now inevitable. Many people in our culture have an entitlement mentality.....I have a right to ______ even if I have to take it from someone else. There will be a much greater number of individuals willing to kill for food, gasoline, medicine, etc. I think this is what scares me the most. We've got nine individuals in our tiny town right now that have been on public assistance for years and no longer have any working skills. These same people routinely vandalize and steal what they want...constantly spending a few days here, a few days there in jail for their petty crimes and I have absolutely no doubt that they will be VERY desperate when their assistance checks no longer come and they do not possess the moral drive to reign in their baser instincts.

 

I hate to say that I do believe it is going to get a whole lot worse before it will get better. As a general rule, major financial decisions at the federal level take 8-10 years to be felt nationally, across the entire economy. That means that even if our government suddenly woke up and decided to be responsible and that equated to real, substantitive financial change, it would take until 2018-2020 for the people to feel a recovery in any significant way. There are a lot of people in America that aren't going to make it that long!

 

This is why DH is slaving away at a job he hates because the income is good and we can get out of debt. If we can hold on 40 months, we will not have any debt of any kind. We are gardening and buying produce from organic farmer's markets in order to can, dehydrate, and freeze large amounts of food. I trade chores at a farm for the privilege of raising two pigs there for butchering.....they have a great life and are treated EXTREMELY well....the way any animal should be treated and especially those headed for our family's plates. We've converted to burning wood for heat and will have a flock of chickens by next summer. Mabel, the milk cow, is being boarded at a local farm because we don't have the acreage to keep her here, and if we can manage it financially, we'll have enough solar panels on the roof next summer to provide sustainable electricity for the electrical components of the wood boiler, the well pump, and the freezer. We have considered what the absolute bare minimum basics are for clothing and have put away warm boots, coats, mittens, hats, work clothing, etc. for the boys and have significant extras of first aid and both allopathic and naturopathic medicines stocked away and extra toothpaste and toilet paper.....I CAN NOT GO THROUGH ANYTHING LIKE THIS WITHOUT TOILET PAPER AND A CURE FOR DS 13's MORNING BREATH! LOL

 

That said, it is much easier for those of us in rural areas to become more self-sustaining because the agricultural and many times, alternative energy resources (land, water, wood, etc.) is readily available. But, I do think there are some things that could be done in urban environments. One of which is to demolish a lot of these dangerous, empty buildings, (DETROIT!!!!!!!!!) clean up the mess, haul in compost from the rural areas, and start community gardens. It wouldn't kill the local bureaucrats to let up on the city utility and farm animal issues and allow shallow wells to be sunk in these areas just for watering the gardens and even flocks of chickens. Chlorinated water isn't good for plants and animals anyway. But, it would take a change of heart in the government and amongst urban dwellers. Yes, some will steal.....and that should have the same consquences as shop lifting, auto theft, etc....but those that would steal should also be offered the possibility of volunteering their time to work and receive food from these community plots.

 

For those people who still function under some sort of crazy delusion that the "look" of the community is more important than the sustainability of the community (I'm talking Homeowners's association people here), a day of reckoning is coming....better to have a garden, two apple trees, some strawberries, raspberries, and a pear tree plus four laying hens, then be VERY HUNGRY later! Besides, gardens can be very pretty and a cherry tree in blossom is a gorgeous sight!

 

It's going to take a much greater sense of community to survive than what Americans, as a general rule, currently exude.

 

Faith (now waiting to be flamed as my opinion is probably controversial)

[Remudamom]

I'm lots older that Astrid and I'm going to say what I want too.

 

I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's mistakes and choices. The sooner we crash the better. Then we'll take care of ourselves here on the ranch, and anyone who pulls their own weight can join us.

 

RM, who is still lamenting the Y2K no show.

[My3Boys]

Originally Posted by Smithie

"I, who had babies while married, could not afford the type of health care given to unwed teens. I had my babies at a birthing center, and dared not ask for anesthesia, because I only had enough money to pay for the basic package. I refused suggested ultrasound because I didn't have the money."

 

:grouphug:

 

That must have been horribly traumatic for you. This is why I cast my vote for politicians who believe that adequate health care is the right of EVERY American citizen. You. Me. The pregnant teenager. I'm not interested in whatever moral distinctions some may see between us - a healer's job is to heal, and it would be my pleasure and my privilege as a taxpayer to stop funding wars and start funding a functional public health system.

 

 

 

I agree, on first blush the sentiment sounds wonderful, but who is going to pay for this? Why are we limiting it to only? Americans? How about illegals? How about the taxpayers right to property being infringed upon in order to pay for services for someone else? The CBO has already come out and said that the plan we now have is going to raise budgetary costs not lower them The government is spending far more than it should which will eventually result in fiscal collapse. Wonderful sentiments do nothing but speed this process.

 

 

The OP asked what will happen if the government runs out of money, we may soon find out.

 

As for me I am perfectly happy to fund our Defense as that trully is a role of government whereas I find no reference to the role of government being the provision of universal and free healthcare.

 

Agreeing with you and thank you for being willing to take an unpopular stand.

[My3Boys]

I'm lots older that Astrid and I'm going to say what I want too.

 

I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's mistakes and choices. The sooner we crash the better. Then we'll take care of ourselves here on the ranch, and anyone who pulls their own weight can join us.

 

RM, who is still lamenting the Y2K no show.

 

:iagree:

 

We are tired of it as well, and know many, many others who feel the same way.

[Tabrett]

I agree with Peela. Debt creates the illusion of a middle class but it is just that and so like smoke and mirrors, doesn't take much before the truth shines through and that's where America is at now.

 

Yes, I do believe the government will run out of money....printing money that is not backed by gold or silver or some sort of stable product only ends in run-a-way inflation and a dollar that isn't worth a cent anywhere else.

 

I think Greece's situation is very telling......they are eliminating universal healthcare, people are rioting in the streets because the lifestyle they have lived is not sustainable in reality, and the Euro is faltering with a number of other European nations, Spain for one, feeling the pinch. This is a country that can't go around their problems, they are now going to have to go through....so far the U.S. has skirted around the issues but we are fast approaching, just like the Great Depression, a time of having to go through it.

 

The single biggest issue now is that in the 1930's, the government had money. Real money backed by something and it meant something....it had global value. Such is now not the case. Debt is not an asset! It's a noble thing to want to bail out banks and manufacturing industries so people do not lose their jobs, to not cut back on social security and medicare/medicaid, to give out risky business loans, fund questionable grant studies, build 100 million dollar naval destroyers that the navy doesn't want so that someone doesn't lose his/her job, etc. but at some point, if all of that is funded by debt and not by a valuable, real dollar then it will eventually be unsustainable. The 1930's government had real money for putting men to work....the Hoover Dam, roads, etc. Our government doesn't have this and can't keep this up so people are going to be VERY angry when they discover that the illusion can't be maintained.

 

My big concern is that we will have a HUGE crime rate, rioting, looting, pillaging, etc. The crime rate did not go up during the 1930's but I think it is now inevitable. Many people in our culture have an entitlement mentality.....I have a right to ______ even if I have to take it from someone else. There will be a much greater number of individuals willing to kill for food, gasoline, medicine, etc. I think this is what scares me the most. We've got nine individuals in our tiny town right now that have been on public assistance for years and no longer have any working skills. These same people routinely vandalize and steal what they want...constantly spending a few days here, a few days there in jail for their petty crimes and I have absolutely no doubt that they will be VERY desperate when their assistance checks no longer come and they do not possess the moral drive to reign in their baser instincts.

 

I hate to say that I do believe it is going to get a whole lot worse before it will get better. As a general rule, major financial decisions at the federal level take 8-10 years to be felt nationally, across the entire economy. That means that even if our government suddenly woke up and decided to be responsible and that equated to real, substantitive financial change, it would take until 2018-2020 for the people to feel a recovery in any significant way. There are a lot of people in America that aren't going to make it that long!

 

This is why DH is slaving away at a job he hates because the income is good and we can get out of debt. If we can hold on 40 months, we will not have any debt of any kind. We are gardening and buying produce from organic farmer's markets in order to can, dehydrate, and freeze large amounts of food. I trade chores at a farm for the privilege of raising two pigs there for butchering.....they have a great life and are treated EXTREMELY well....the way any animal should be treated and especially those headed for our family's plates. We've converted to burning wood for heat and will have a flock of chickens by next summer. Mabel, the milk cow, is being boarded at a local farm because we don't have the acreage to keep her here, and if we can manage it financially, we'll have enough solar panels on the roof next summer to provide sustainable electricity for the electrical components of the wood boiler, the well pump, and the freezer. We have considered what the absolute bare minimum basics are for clothing and have put away warm boots, coats, mittens, hats, work clothing, etc. for the boys and have significant extras of first aid and both allopathic and naturopathic medicines stocked away and extra toothpaste and toilet paper.....I CAN NOT GO THROUGH ANYTHING LIKE THIS WITHOUT TOILET PAPER AND A CURE FOR DS 13's MORNING BREATH! LOL

 

That said, it is much easier for those of us in rural areas to become more self-sustaining because the agricultural and many times, alternative energy resources (land, water, wood, etc.) is readily available. But, I do think there are some things that could be done in urban environments. One of which is to demolish a lot of these dangerous, empty buildings, (DETROIT!!!!!!!!!) clean up the mess, haul in compost from the rural areas, and start community gardens. It wouldn't kill the local bureaucrats to let up on the city utility and farm animal issues and allow shallow wells to be sunk in these areas just for watering the gardens and even flocks of chickens. Chlorinated water isn't good for plants and animals anyway. But, it would take a change of heart in the government and amongst urban dwellers. Yes, some will steal.....and that should have the same consquences as shop lifting, auto theft, etc....but those that would steal should also be offered the possibility of volunteering their time to work and receive food from these community plots.

 

For those people who still function under some sort of crazy delusion that the "look" of the community is more important than the sustainability of the community (I'm talking Homeowners's association people here), a day of reckoning is coming....better to have a garden, two apple trees, some strawberries, raspberries, and a pear tree plus four laying hens, then be VERY HUNGRY later! Besides, gardens can be very pretty and a cherry tree in blossom is a gorgeous sight!

 

It's going to take a much greater sense of community to survive than what Americans, as a general rule, currently exude.

 

Faith (now waiting to be flamed as my opinion is probably controversial)

 

Wow that is an awesome post! It is what I would like to do, but I don't know quite how to do. It is what my dh dreams of doing. He says he wants to become a "gentleman farmer", not quite sure what that means:lol:.

 

We are trying to get to that point, but there are many obstacles that are coming our way. We are almost to the point of apathy. It is almost like standing in front of a new, paid for, car with the keys in hand, but the door is broken and we can't get in, to drive away. It is very frustrating!

Edited September 17, 2010 by Tabrett

[Jenny in Atl]

I'm lots older that Astrid and I'm going to say what I want too.

 

I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's mistakes and choices. The sooner we crash the better. Then we'll take care of ourselves here on the ranch, and anyone who pulls their own weight can join us.

 

RM, who is still lamenting the Y2K no show.

 

Ahh, yes... the dark ages were good times, good times.

[astrid]

Ahh, yes... the dark ages were good times, good times.

 

More so if you were a Lord. Not so much for the serfs who farmed the land. They pretty much toiled in poverty and filth, hoping they could repent for their mistakes and poor choices before their early and no doubt painful death.

 

Good times.

 

astrid

[Tabrett]

You realize that unless you have multiple children that $10-15 an hour won't qualify you for any assistance? While the *gross* amount of income for food stamp eligibility has risen to 200% of the poverty level, the *net* has not.

 

 

Yes, I am talking about people with multiple children. I'm talking about families that mirror the types of families we have on the post. Most of which, if our dh lost his income and was working for $10-$15/hr, would put us in need of assistance.

I do realize that not all families on the post have multiple children or are married, but I think the majority do and are.

 

I am assuming that $10-$15/hr is to support an entire family.

[Remudamom]

More so if you were a Lord. Not so much for the serfs who farmed the land. They pretty much toiled in poverty and filth, hoping they could repent for their mistakes and poor choices before their early and no doubt painful death.

 

Good times.

 

astrid

 

We don't consider ourselves Lords, but you know what? We pay our own way, and don't mooch money that has been taken from others. We refuse to participate in the countless government programs available for farmers and ranchers. That's stolen money, and we want no part of it.

 

We're easy enough to get along with, an old person that can't work can pull his own weight around here by simply sharing his/her knowledge. Little ones contribute by being a joy to watch.

 

Poverty and filth? Let's see, no poverty here, but plenty of filth. It washes off at the end of everyday, and as far as I'm concerned is proof that I'm not sitting on my ass doing nothing.

 

I've made plenty of mistakes, but I've been forgiven. My death could very well be painful, but I'm too old already for it to be early.

 

Anytime can be the good time if you don't have a pitiful little me attitude.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Remudamom

[Remudamom]

Wow. I guess I must be reading this differently because I don't immediately think about a couple sucking on the teat of public assistance here. Rather, it just reinforces my belief that this country desperately needs affordable, safe, reliable childcare accessible to all who need it. It's tough to work when your income is less than your daycare bill.

 

astrid

 

[vonfirmath]

And trust me, to the previous poster talking about steaks and seafood - that isn't happening here.

 

I've got friends in small town Kentucky and large city Washington that work/manage a grocery store and sees it everyday.

[stripe]

There is an awful lot of resentment on this board.

 

What would happen if people on here didn't have the time to .... oh, never mind.

[FaithManor]

Hi Tabrett,

 

I know what you mean.....making it happen, spinning wheels, feeling like you'll never get there.

 

Dh would be BEYOND HAPPY if he could be a gentleman farmer....in our area, a gentleman farmer is one who has educated himself so that he minimizes his harm to the land, farms sustainably, is well read, kind and polite to all, and wise in his business dealings. We have a few and they are really neat people to get to know! We pick their brains regularly.

 

For us it took a lot of baby steps to get where we are now and we had to NOT focus on how much we wanted to accomplish but on each tiny little goal and opportunity as it presented itself. It could be anything from having peppers and tomatoes in containers in our old home, to planting that first bush or tree. None of them, in and of themselves, would make a dent in sustainability, but all put together, they were huge.

 

We were very fortunate, we saw the wave of real estate crashes on the horizon, and decided to get out while the going was good. As it was, because of needing to live in one place while renovating another, we couldn't get out at the height of the market so we did take a bath on the old place but we managed to get out in time to break even and nothing more....but that's okay.

 

I think the key is creativity, like my farm sitting so we can raise pigs. There are a lot of farmers in our area that would love to have a farm sitter. Farming and a sustainable live style are time intensive and many professional farmers and serious homesteaders never get any down time because they don't have anyone to train and barter with. So, if you live anywhere near an area of heavy agriculture, you might try asking, "If I come and learn to take care of your animals, or cut and stack your wood, or hoe your corn, or whatever, will you make a reasonable exchange of produce, eggs, animal feed for my flock at home, space to raise a pig, a cow, a goat....whatever your goal?" The worst a person can say is no....many will say yes if they sense you are sincere and willing to work hard.

 

Also, once you become good at animal husbandry, weeding a garden, hoeing, harvesting, tossing hay bales, etc. you can then offer your services as a farm sitter or temporary hand. I could make good money taking care of show horses as an excellent stable hand is nigh on to unexistent!

 

Another way we saved money on the food bill was to begin purchasing at a Mennonite grocery store. You will need to ask around to see if there is one within a reasonable driving distance of you. They don't usually advertise. Ours sells organic wheat, flours, beans of every kind, other baking supplies, cheese, butter, and other dairy, nuts, and produce for probably half the cost of anywhere else. Their stores are NO frills and that's fine by me.

 

I think the key to getting from point A to point B is bargain hunting, not getting hung up on that HUGE distance goal, and bartering/creative approaches to accomplishing a smaller goal. Taken in total over a few years all of those little accomplishments suddenly begin adding up.

 

Oh, and if you want to try your hand at an easy farming adventure, buy some tomato, pepper, and broccoli seeds and a plant light and try having some vegetable container gardens all year round. I have a friend with terrible food allergies that lives in an apartment and does this. She literally always has a salad growing in her home. Two kinds of lettuce, two kinds of peppers, tomatoes, herbs.

 

Also, this time of year, any nurseries and greenhouses still open will sell their fruit trees and bushes at 50-60% off.....fall is just fine for planting them because they will still begin putting down roots before going dormant. Just be sure to give them a BIG hole with lots of good soil, water, and lots of mulching. Then let them go dormant with the rest of the trees and bushes on your property. As long as they didn't have fried roots to begin with or some sort of fungus/parasite, they will begin growing again in the spring.

 

Faith

[....]

Tabrett, your thread has turned a interesting corner.

 

:smilielol5:

 

And that Teat of Public Assistance ROCKS! (I'm probably going to get banned)

 

:cheers2: Cheers, Ya'all!

[Mrs Mungo]

Everyone in the US is relying on government programs in one way or another. Roads, the post office, hospitals, national security, the military, fire fighters, local and federal police forces, farm subsidies that lower the cost of food-these are just a FEW of the things are paid for with taxes (both local anf federal taxes, the federal government pays for a LOT more than most people realize). Not only that, but federal trade agreements lower the cost of import goods and help us export goods. The Internet? Funded, researched, implemented and partially managed by US government. That is how I *know* that everyone here is accepting government aid, whether or not they realize it. None of us is autonomous, that might be a cozy illusion, but it is not reality.

[kristavws]

I know many people who are building food gardens where there used to be lawn, planting fruit trees, and trying to live more sustainably. It just seems to be the way things are heading and it seems wise to get in there before it gets to the point where we need them for our very survival, and there are people roaming the streets hungry and willing to commit crimes just to eat. It seems sensible to plan for a future than involves food shortages and basically, difficult times. At the very least, if it doesnt occur, we will be better off anyway.

If welfare dries up? It could happen. But if the sun is shining and there is water and fertile earth (a big if in many places), we can grow food. We can grow food now. Why are we so dependent on food being grown by huge farms anyway?

Dh and I discuss it quite often. How we could go bush and hunt and survive - if it really came to that. I think it is highly likely that there will be famine in the future. It already exists in many parts of the planet- why would be in the western countries be immune? We havent shown a lot of common sense in so many areas. We put a lot of things before taking good care of ourselves and making sure our food is healthy and our water is clean. We poison our water and put poisons on the food and treat the animals badly.

If there is such a thing as karma...we in the west have a bit coming our way.

So yes...it could happen. Its worth considering, for all of us.

 

The fact is, I don't think there are a lot of people that are willing to do the things Peela mentions above. My husband and I both believe that everything is going to come crashing down, and probably in the not too distant future. Several years ago, we decided we wanted to have a more self-sustaining life. The fact of the matter is that having this lifestyle takes a lot of work, and many people are not willing to put in the work required. For example, we raise pigs and chickens, have a milk cow, and try to grow and can most of our own food. We heat our house entire with a wood stove. All of this requires work - animals have to be fed and cared for, the cow has to milked, fences have to mended, in rain or shine, sleet or snow. The garden has to be planted, weeded, picked, and the produce put up for the winter. I know people that have the land and could do this, but frankly they are just not willing to do the work required. They will gripe about food cost and electric bills, when it could be eliminated, if they were just willing to get their a$$ out of their deck chair. Let's face it, a decent size garden can even be grown in in one's suburban backyard, if one is willing to put in the TIME and EFFORT.

 

My husband works a full-time job M-F, and spends nearly every weekend on farm projects. Granted, we have only had the farm 2 1/2 years, and are still trying to get it to where we want it to be (for example, most of our fencing needs to be completely replaced.) We spent our entire Labor Day weekend cutting, splitting, and stacking wood, so that we would not have to turn on the heater this winter. We did this with another like-minded family, and had fun with it, but that didn't change the fact that I could barely move on Tuesday morning:tongue_smilie: Despite the hard work aspect of it, we love our current lifestyle, and would not change it for anything. I would be lying if I did not say that we also have a lot of fun. It is not uncommon for us to spend all day Saturday working, and all evening riding horses. It frankly irritates me though when people gripe about this or that, but are not willing to do what it takes to resolve the situation, especially if they are in a position to do so.

 

Krista

[HRAAB]

 

My concern is what is going to happen when the middle income people loose all their jobs and end up taking $10-$15/hr jobs to try to pay their bills, many middle income families will NEED public assistance and there will be no more revenue to fund programs for anyone because there will be no more job that pay a living wage.

 

 

I haven't read all the replies, but thought I would respond to this.

 

The last job my dh had paid $26./hr. That is not a bad income for the area we live in. He really wasn't making that much money over our entire married life; for most of the years he was employed (28 yrs) with the same company, he made less and was on a lower pay range. We have always lived very frugally. We don't spend any extra money, pay up front for everything, put money into our retirement account and focused on being debt free. We were able to accomplish that with a lot of hard work - hard work meaning giving up extras. When dh lost his job in May 2009 we were totally debt free.

 

Fast forward to the present. The best jobs he is finding are paying around $16. to $17. an hour. This is with a degree and 28+ yrs. experience. So we're looking at about a $10.00 an hour cut in pay. There is nothing in his field that is paying close to what he was making. The last contract job he had paid between $18. to $20. an hour, and in the past nine months, the same job is paying $17.00. The pay is continually dropping. For someone without a degree, most jobs I see are paying between $7.25 and $10./$11. an hour.

 

We would be able to get by on $15.00 an hour, but the only reason we are able to is the fact we are debt free. Getting by means paying utilities, maintenance and repair on our house and cars, paying taxes and insurance, curriculum purchases, and occasional doctor bills. It does not include continuing to fund our retirement, and if dh does not have access to group health plan, it will not include health insurance. Right now the cheapest we can get health insurance for our family is $750. a month, and that is major medical with a $10,000. ded. We would try to save anything left over.

 

If we had a mortgage or perhaps a car payment or credit card balance, or medical bills, etc. like many people do - and not due to excessive living - we could not support our family on $15.00 an hour. It would be impossible. Both my dh and I would have to be working, and I sincerely doubt I could find a job paying more than $10.00 an hour since I haven't worked in 16 years.

 

As it is right now, my children qualify for CHiP. My dh and I do not qualify because of our savings. However, with what we're paying for health insurance plus taxes and property insurance, our savings is getting depleted. We are thinking about dropping our health insurance. Scary thought.

 

Dh has not been able to find permanent work even at $15. an hour or so. He has only found contract work with no benefits, and it appears that's the way the future is going to be. No job stability. I have been looking around, had a couple interviews, but haven't got anything. Then there's the homeschooling to think about.

 

I'm very worried about our retirement since we are no longer able to save for it, and these are the years where you should be making your highest income and saving the most. Yet I'm very, very thankful we are debt free. We have friends who lost their house and are living with family. I wouldn't say they lived extravagantly but they had a mortgage and some credit card debt. Everything just snowballed when he lost his job. I know several people who are getting food stamps for the first time in their lives; they're not happy about it, but they can't make it on jobs paying $10. to $12. an hour with a family to support. These are not people who ever abused the system. They are part of the underemployed.

 

Probably more than you wanted to know.

[TXMary2]

You realize that unless you have multiple children that $10-15 an hour won't qualify you for any assistance? While the *gross* amount of income for food stamp eligibility has risen to 200% of the poverty level, the *net* has not.

 

And trust me, to the previous poster talking about steaks and seafood - that isn't happening here.

 

 

Two years ago I worked as a temporary (seasonal) cashier at a "super" center that regularly gets bashed by people who hate big busines......but anyway....while working there my eyes were opened to what is happening with the food stamps. EVERY DAY I worked I checked out people using their Lonestar Card and many of them bought tons of meat and/or tons of junk food, sodas etc. Oftentimes there was a male accompanying the women purchasing food who had lots of cash and on a separate transaction these same people would buy many $5 DVD's, clothing, handbags, jewelry, beer, cigarettes, chewing tobacco, electronics equipment including big screen tv's. I saw the same people week after week as they were regulars......two women must have had LOTS of children or "dependents" because both of them had huge balances on their LS Card. At the bottom of the receipt it would print out their balance and one of the women regularly had over $1600 balance and the other one $700. I asked one of the managers how that was possible and I was told she either has tons of kids or has a relative working for the right department and obtains the money fraudulently. Nice.

 

Many of these same people had cell phones, fake nails, nice jewelry etc. I know, I know, they may have hit hard times and already had those things - except the fake nails require every two week upkeep which is $$ out and if you hit hard times the fake nails have to go! I used to have the fake nails, but now that we are a one income family for the most part I do not do that as it would be $40 a month I can spend elsewhere.

 

I know it is all purely anecdotal, but I know what I saw.

[Remudamom]

Everyone in the US is relying on government programs in one way or another. Roads, the post office, hospitals, national security, the military, fire fighters, local and federal police forces, farm subsidies that lower the cost of food-these are just a FEW of the things are paid for with taxes (both local anf federal taxes, the federal government pays for a LOT more than most people realize). Not only that, but federal trade agreements lower the cost of import goods and help us export goods. The Internet? Funded, researched, implemented and partially managed by US government. That is how I *know* that everyone here is accepting government aid, whether or not they realize it. None of us is autonomous, that might be a cozy illusion, but it is not reality.

 

Doesn't fly, general services like the ones you mentioned are used by the general public, not a handful of mooching piglets. I don't mind paying for roads, fire fighters, posts offices.

 

I sure do mind paying for the PS in our state. As landowners the taxes we pay that go to our local ps are astonishing, and I can say now that my kids will never attend. (They're too old.)

Edited September 17, 2010 by Remudamom

[Barry Goldwater]

Originally Posted by Smithie

 

As for me I am perfectly happy to fund our Defense as that trully is a role of government whereas I find no reference to the role of government being the provision of universal and free healthcare.

 

:iagree: and your statement is factually correct...besides, 'universal and free' anything is guaranteed to be more expensive, of lower quality and less advanced...that's not politics, it's just math.

[Barry Goldwater]

I'm sick and tired of paying for other people's mistakes and choices. The sooner we crash the better. Then we'll take care of ourselves here on the ranch, and anyone who pulls their own weight can join us.

 

RM, who is still lamenting the Y2K no show.

 

Agreed...it will happen sooner or later...sooner is better so my kids at least have a shot at rebuilding...

 

I'm still finding Y2K cans of beans in the back of my pantry.:glare:

[Barry Goldwater]

More so if you were a Lord. Not so much for the serfs who farmed the land. They pretty much toiled in poverty and filth, hoping they could repent for their mistakes and poor choices before their early and no doubt painful death.

 

Good times.

 

astrid

 

Serfs kept more of the fruits of their labor than the 'working people' of today in the US. Class envy much?

 

It's the math...too many services, not enough wealth to pillage to pay for them...

[FaithManor]

Bary hit the nail on the head. The smaller the middle class and wealthy class, the less money there is to redistribute. It is going to continue to get worse as long as our current system continues in its unfettered spending habits. Dh and the other working Americans cannot support their families and everyone else's as well. Additionally, the truly wealthy (not the comfortably well off who are slowly seeing their lifestyles scaled back as well) can jump ship when it starts to sink....Donald Trump and friends can buy their island in the Pacific and reitre on the plantation....they won't continue to pay taxes to prop the whole thing up and even if they did....the wealthiest 10% of the nation won't have enough net worth to pay off our 13 trillion dollar debt. They'll run.

 

I can't run....so I have a huge incentive in being able to feed my family and given that Michigan IS COLD, heating at least a portion of the house as well.

 

Faith

[kahlanne]

You realize that unless you have multiple children that $10-15 an hour won't qualify you for any assistance? While the *gross* amount of income for food stamp eligibility has risen to 200% of the poverty level, the *net* has not.

 

And trust me, to the previous poster talking about steaks and seafood - that isn't happening here.

 

 

Since I am the previous poster, I thought I would reply. I know this happens every day in both Louisiana and Mississippi. I am sure these aren't the only states either. I can give many more examples of not only welfare fraud but also using the system as it is set up, correctly that is, and letting it become a crutch. I gave examples from my own family because I didn't want to just point the finger at everyone else's family. I know firsthand that my brother is following all the guidelines but he could better his life with another job, possibly in a new location, if he couldn't always depend on welfare. Oh, and as a cashier at the only local store in our town in MS, I KNOW people can buy steaks, shrimp (expensive here), etc. with their food card. You are nieve if you think it doesn't happen where you are as well. I honestly think if I was on food stamps, why not if it is allowed. I personally hate it that my dh works hard for our income and it is a special occasion for us to get steaks yet easily for public assistance people to do so.

[Haiku]

I'm not interested in whatever moral distinctions some may see between us - a healer's job is to heal, and it would be my pleasure and my privilege as a taxpayer to stop funding wars and start funding a functional public health system.

 

I love you.

 

Tara