Anyone else's regional accent make certain phonics sounds hard to teach?

[*********]

Zee's been doing some work on the schwa sound the past few days. We've come across a LOT of words that, when he and I say them, do not have the schwa sound, but they should. For example:

 

vaccinate - we say vax-in-ate

seven - we say sev-in

apron - we say aye-prin

raisin - we say raise-in

 

There are many more examples I could give.

 

So what do I do? For the life of me, I will never, EVER be able to say 'seven' with a schwa sound. :tongue_smilie: And Zee understands when I explain to him that sometimes, people pronounce words differently than the dictionary says to, because of their accents. But yesterday, there was literally half of our schwa words that we just don't say with a schwa sound.

 

What do I do?!

[sweetbasil]

Call me ignorant, but how else should we pronounce those words (assuming by aye-prin you meant "long a" - prin and not eye-prin)?

 

I've lived in different parts of the country, DH has lived EVERYWHERE, and we've never heard those words pronounced differently than what you specified (other than regional "twangs").

 

Of course, we're very new to phonics, so that may explain my confusion.

[eternalknot]

My kids come from a family where both sides speak with an accent -- one side European, one side Asian. They're accustomed to one word being pronounced a variety of ways :) I tell them that spelling is just one more language (written) to add to the mix.

 

So "seven" would be "seh-wen" to my inlaws, "say-bin" to my side, and "seh-ven" for spelling.

 

Could you tell them that certain words are pronounced differently for spelling? That's what I do, and both have figured it out well enough. One is five and just starting spelling on her own (we don't do formal spelling), will still spell some words phonetically by speech but I just gently remind her that it's one of those special words that we pronounce differently for spelling.

Edited September 14, 2010 by eternalknot

[TravelingChris]

I don't think those words do have a schwa sound at all. I am way past teaching phonics since I only have high schoolers left now but I remember that I had issues with wh being taught as something different than w. Both my husband and I (from different areas since he grew up in NJ suburbs of NYC but doesn't sound at all like those people on Jersey Shore and I grew up in the VA suburbs of DC) pronounce words like white as w- long i -t.

[*********]

Call me ignorant, but how else should we pronounce those words (assuming by aye-prin you meant "long a" - prin and not eye-prin)?

 

I've lived in different parts of the country, DH has lived EVERYWHERE, and we've never heard those words pronounced differently than what you specified (other than regional "twangs").

 

Of course, we're very new to phonics, so that may explain my confusion.

 

According to the dictionary, seven should be pronounced 'sev-uhn'. It almost hurts my brain to hear myself say it that way. :D

 

ETA: Here's a link if you'd like to hear it.

[TravelingChris]

Well I guess I am even more confused. It seemed to me that the person in the dictionary site said sev-en not sev-un. The schwa sound comes in with words like likable where the able is pronounced uble.

[*********]

Well I guess I am even more confused. It seemed to me that the person in the dictionary site said sev-en not sev-un. The schwa sound comes in with words like likable where the able is pronounced uble.

 

That's what I thought! It says the pronunciation is sev-uhn, but the audio clip says sev-en. Funny. :)

[Tabrett]

Actually, you are pronouncing them more like they are spelled. I don't pronounce the "schwa" in any of the words either. When we were doing CLE LTR last year and we came to the schwa sound it through me for a loop too.:D

It was easier for us to sound out the word the way it was written rather than try to teach schwa.

 

Do you really need to learn schwa?

 

Sound out seven= sev-en

Sounds just like to number to me!

 

Raisin= ra (long a) sin

Sounds just like raisin.

 

I just don't hear a need for schwa to sound out words. I thought maybe the people who wrote CLE had some strange accent like the Amish (isn't it Dutch or German?) and that is why they were teaching these weird pronunciations.:lol:

 

Oops guess I was wrong.:tongue_smilie: In this case, I would teach them to sound it out just like it is spelled.

[myfatherslily]

Why is it even called a "schwa" sound?? (I.e., where did the name come from?) Honestly, I don't really get it:) I haven't taught it to my daughter. Like the above example, "likable", it's easy to READ 'like-ah-ble', and then just say it quickly with our normal accent.

I dunno. Seems pointless to me!

[mrs.m]

Well, in the case of an early reader, it's confusing on words like "likable" because they default to the short or long vowel sounds until they learn the suffix "-able".

 

Schwa is a "neutral" vowel sound--all the vowels can make that sound. (upside down "e" in the dictionary) I find it hard to wrap my brain around it because to me it sounds like a short /u/ sound. I find it difficult to teach and was really thrown when I came across that in CLE. DS gets it. I still can't figure it all out, maybe he can explain. LOL!

[Lawana]

In Megawords, they say the schwa sound may be pronounced as either a short "u" or short "i" sound. So button may be buttun or buttin, depending on regional practice. I've always used the short "u" myself, but interestingly, my brother that is 2 years younger than me, uses the short "i" sound.

 

I don't think I've ever heard any native English speaker pronounce words without a schwa vowel sound. Are there really such speakers?

[merry gardens]

In Megawords, they say the schwa sound may be pronounced as either a short "u" or short "i" sound. So button may be buttun or buttin, depending on regional practice. I've always used the short "u" myself, but interestingly, my brother that is 2 years younger than me, uses the short "i" sound.

 

I don't think I've ever heard any native English speaker pronounce words without a schwa vowel sound. Are there really such speakers?

Thanks for that! And thanks for this old thread. :) The phonics program I use and several other sources I search until now kept saying schwa is an "uh" sound. I wondered if I was mispronouncing it.

 

We're working on schwa right now. I was confused about that mysterious upside down e when I was in elementary school. I remember thinking, "What is she talking about? What's a schwa?"

 

I make a variety of schwa sounds, from i to u and somewhere in between. Sometimes the vowel sound is practically not even there-like sev'n or but'n (when I talk fast.) In words that start with the schwa, like above and about, I always start with it saying 'uh', but I'm most likely to use the 'i' sound when schwa occurs later in a word. I'm glad Megawords says the short i is an acceptable variation of the schwa. After all these years, I finally understand!!!!!

[LibraryLover]

Yanno. ;) When I was a small child, growing up in the Boston area, I once spelled regularly, r-e-g-i-r-l-y in an essay. My teacher, a nice midwestern gal who spoke as a person from Nowhere/Anywhere, was quite appalled.

 

Woah. Hold the phone. This is turning out to be quite a traumatic memory. I feel a little sick now. Thanks for that. ;)

 

So, all good phonics lessons to ewe. :grouphug:

[sarawatsonim]

We pronounce all of those words the same way you do without the shwa sound. When we came across shwa in our phonics guide the examples they gave were words we actually pronounce that way like soda, bacon and China so it made sense to me. Now yesterday we came across the word sorry which they said was pronounced with an ar in car sound sar-ry. We pronounce it with a long o sound and I can't bring myself to say it the other way. I just skipped that one and moved onto the next.

[TravelingChris]

I had to change phonics books with my middle. That is because she has very acute hearing and heard more differences in sounds than were explained in most phonics books. I finally found one that explained the many, many sounds. I think I basically stopped insisting on phonics with her. None of my other two had the same problem, but I never used a book that had us pronouncing so many words differently than we do. As I already mentioned, my main difference was with the wh sound since neither my husband nor myself pronounce it any differently than a w.

[Trish]

Doesn't this matter only when the pronounciation is uncertain? Or are you saying many of us are pronouncing those words wrong?

[Melissa in Australia]

you should try Australian, we have 5 sounds for a.

My Canadian Husband cannot believe it, and is always trying to correct my pronunciation.

[gardening momma]

vaccinate - we say vax-in-ate

seven - we say sev-in

apron - we say aye-prin

raisin - we say raise-in

 

I would pronounce vaccinate the same (vax-in-ate)--don't see what's wrong there.

Seven--I think I say sev-in also, but if I dragged it out for spelling it would sound like sev-ehn

Apron--ay-prun

raisin--raise-in

 

I live in SW Ohio and grew up in Michigan...so of course I don't have an accent. :D :tongue_smilie:

[GWOB]

As a good ole Cajun gal who was taught English by non-native speakers, I refer to the "schwa" sound as voodoo phonics.

 

We will not go into all the issues raised by my Cajun/Southern/Cali/Warshingtun/New York/Nuhbraskuh accent.;):lol:

 

Of course, I have the opportunity to "rise above" regional pronunciations having lived in many different regions. However, I will admit it took many years to realize the proper pronunciation of Tueasday was not in fact Chews-day. Still, I will advocate that "oil" has only one syllable. I guess I will just concede that my kids will have some sort of messed up accent. That's ok. Accents are cute.;):tongue_smilie:

[gardening momma]

Still, I will advocate that "oil" has only one syllable.

I have cousins that grew up in SE Ohio (and maybe some part of Virginia at some point, I think), and they pronounced "oil" as "awl." So when we'd see them we'd ask them to say "oil" just because it was so funny. :lol:

[missmoe]

We sound out the word using phonics, and then I say but we pronounce it this way.

[m0mmaBuck]

Zee's been doing some work on the schwa sound the past few days. We've come across a LOT of words that, when he and I say them, do not have the schwa sound, but they should. For example:

 

vaccinate - we say vax-in-ate

seven - we say sev-in

apron - we say aye-prin

raisin - we say raise-in

 

There are many more examples I could give.

 

So what do I do? For the life of me, I will never, EVER be able to say 'seven' with a schwa sound. :tongue_smilie: And Zee understands when I explain to him that sometimes, people pronounce words differently than the dictionary says to, because of their accents. But yesterday, there was literally half of our schwa words that we just don't say with a schwa sound.

 

What do I do?!

 

Bethany, from the description of your location, I know you talk like me. :) Anyway, we have problems because I grew up in WI, DH grew up in PA, and we now live in WA so not only do we talk differently from each other, but we talk differently from those around us.

[Mrs Mungo]

Pen, pin. I don't get what's so funny about how I say them?

[Ravin]

Schwa sounds tend to come in on unstressed vowels, and obviously vary with regional accents because some people just lead less linguistically stressful lives. I've noticed that some sounds I hear differences in DD has trouble distinguishing--the "pin/pen" issue, for example, and that she'll follow phonics rules when reading vowels certain words that in normal conversation she'd schwa, while for others she'll sound it out then smooth it over into usual pronunciation. Most notably, when reading she'll read "the" with a long "e" even though we usually say "thuh" in conversation.

 

I would go ahead and read things phonetically, factoring in the "schwa" sound only where it applies, esp. if your natural accent pronounces those vowels more than not.

[....]

We were just going through this yesterday in Megawords. I crossed off that section. I told my daughter, "We just don't talk like that."

 

Sheesh.

 

On another note, :glare: since we've moved to Texas, I have people ask me if we're from Canada. :confused:

[....]

Bethany, from the description of your location, I know you talk like me. :) Anyway, we have problems because I grew up in WI, DH grew up in PA, and we now live in WA so not only do we talk differently from each other, but we talk differently from those around us.

 

Yeah, I've lived all over the world. Maybe I just have my own accent now. :rolleyes:

[MotherGoose]

When I read nursery rhymes to my dd4, and got to "Old Mother Goose, when she wanted to wander, would ride through the air on a very fine gander"-wander with short a and gander with long a, she corrected me and said gander with a short a too. :) Craziness of the English language.

[MomOfOneFunOne]

aas says that if your regional pronunciation is different, just "pronounce for spelling." Mostly that isnt' a problem for us.

 

I'm from The South but have lived here long enough not to sound like it (unless I want to). The Southern tongue, imnsho, strives for two syllables no matter what. It doesn't matter how many syllables are in a word, the Southern tongue wants two.

 

So a single syllable word like Bob, drawls out like Bo-ob. But a mulitsyllabic wd, like, say, Maryville, wants to be Mar'ville. Not like mar but like mar' of you get the distinction. or Knoxv'l.

 

So, when we learned about some single syllable words and had to sound them out, we just couldn't do some of them. Tire, Fire, et c all have two syllables for us. We began to think that ppl who have a flat tar or build a far to stay warm may have a point.

[fairfarmhand]

it's not only the schwa....we get hung up on plain old cvc words....

 

hen...round here its said "Hin"

cat...we say it more like "cay-at" (I know we add a whole nother syllable!)

pen...said the same as the sewing implement...(pin)

[Dawn in OH]

My teacher, a nice midwestern gal who spoke as a person from Nowhere/Anywhere, was quite appalled.

 

 

 

This is how I speak. We have the nowhere/anywhere accent.

 

My grandmother on the other hand grew up in West Virginia and said many things differently than I was taught. In fact, all my life, the woman called me Don instead of Dawn.

[gardening momma]

So, when we learned about some single syllable words and had to sound them out, we just couldn't do some of them. Tire, Fire, et c all have two syllables for us. We began to think that ppl who have a flat tar or build a far to stay warm may have a point.

I hear two syllables in fire and tire, but dictionary.com shows just one if I read it correctly (but still pronounces it with two syllables, to my ears. definitely not "far" and "tar").

 

And we have a few people around here from southern areas who say "pin" for "pen".

[MomOfOneFunOne]

definitely not "far" and "tar").

 

QUOTE]

 

well, I was hyperbolizin', ma'am.

[SeekingSimplicity]

I'm from The South but have lived here long enough not to sound like it (unless I want to). The Southern tongue, imnsho, strives for two syllables no matter what. It doesn't matter how many syllables are in a word, the Southern tongue wants two.

 

So a single syllable word like Bob, drawls out like Bo-ob. But a mulitsyllabic wd, like, say, Maryville, wants to be Mar'ville. Not like mar but like mar' of you get the distinction. or Knoxv'l.

 

So, when we learned about some single syllable words and had to sound them out, we just couldn't do some of them. Tire, Fire, et c all have two syllables for us. We began to think that ppl who have a flat tar or build a far to stay warm may have a point.

 

 

LOL yep, syllables throw us off sometimes. There's no such thing as a one syllable word. A-yut least I-uh've never heard'a wu-uhn. (at least I've never heard of one) :lol:

 

Remember the joke about the 3 wise men being firemen, because they came from a 'far'? :tongue_smilie: