Just some observations and comments about grade vs. age

[joannqn]

When I was in school, we memorized our facts in 5th grade. We were expected to learn them, and practice until we could do a timed test perfectly. I recall taking the test 3 or 4 times on each function before passing. So, we didn't have them memorized, but when told to learn them, we needed to have them down pat. I spent 4th grade at a very good school in Canberra. We weren't expected to have the math facts memorized. I think I was chanting the multiplication facts with my dad before that, as I recall chanting the 12x while I walked the very long way to that school (I also recall hollaring a Grace Slick imitation of White Rabbit, too.)

 

I based my expectations on my school experience. We worked on addition and subtraction timed tests in 2nd grade and multiplication and division timed tests in third grade. I know multi-digit multiplication and long division were taught nearer the end of 3rd grade. I don't remember what, exactly we did in 4th-6th but I'm guessing it was fractions, decimals, percents, exponents, etc. My peers and I took prealgebra in 7th and algebra in 8th grade.

[MissKNG]

 

Any thoughts or comments? Do the "standards" for starting K or 1st grade seem to line up in your area between school choice? What are the pro's and con's of calling a child in an advanced grade, in your opinion?

 

We are calling this year "Kindergarten" because my big girl SAID she didn't want to be called a "Preschooler" anymore! :lol:

 

My state has a late cut off - December 1st. I started K before turning 5 and did fine. I'm used to K=5, 1st=6, 2nd=7 and so on. In other states, the cut off is way earlier so the 6 year old (with the fall birthdays, for example) working at a 1st grade level sounds advanced because they would *only* be in K if the child went to ps. A 6 year old doing 1st grade stuff is "normal" imo, I mean, that's what I did when I was young.

Edited September 12, 2010 by MissKNG

[parias1126]

My two cents on this is that if she's really struggling with material that would be widely viewed as being age-appropriate, I'd probably want to rule out LDs. Third grade is a common time for LDs to show up as the level of work involved increases to a point where earlier compensation strategies begin to fail.

 

What I didn't mention is that she was taken to the eye doctor to see if there was a vision issue. Turned out she had astigmatism in her left eye, focusing issues because of that and was very far sighted so we NEED to do 2nd to review everything from last year that she learned which she probably had a hard time understanding because she couldn't see it.

 

We will go on to do 2nd grade this year and see what happens. I'm almost positive she will excel now that she has her glasses. I won't put another child through testing at this point to see if there is an LD. Been there, done that....turned out it was her personality. The PS is always so pushed to Jump at the idea that a child has an LD because they are struggling. This is why we Homeschool.

Edited September 12, 2010 by parias1126

[LisaKinVA]

If ps was appropriately challenging to the individual student, there would be no need to designate giftedness for most of these kids. Since it is harder to advance grades in ps, we get "gifted". Hs parents do the same thing but can advance grades instead. :)

 

I wholeheartedly disagree... "gifted" doesn't "happen" because PS isn't challenging students, it's an entirely different subset. It's like saying there is no such thing as a learning disability.

 

Average parents may not know the difference, but parents with children on the other end of the "bell curve" are often times extremely frustrated.

 

Additionally "gifted" as a label normally isn't used until around 3rd grade. Assumptions being children will "level out" about that time, and only the truly "gifted" ones will stand out. Even worse, kids who are "gifted" and have an LD (such as dyslexia) often go unrecognized because the child is passing all of their reading benchmarks in the younger grades and truly can't read -- they are simply compensating. Depending upon the child, a teacher (or parent) might not notice there is even a problem until middle school.:tongue_smilie:

[Pretty in Pink]

Regardless of the grade level my children work at, I designate their grade level based on age. My 12yo is in 7th grade, my 7yo is in second, and my 4yo is in pre-K.

 

I find it confusing all around to base grade level on where a child is working.

 

FWIW, I have no idea whatsoever what my state's standards are.

[LisaKinVA]

My children are all "labeled" with the grade they would be in for PS around here. I have "cherry picked" the areas they may accelerate officially, vs. areas they will simply "go deeper" into. There are some subjects I really, honestly don't care if they are accelerated or not (grammar, spelling come to mind), because I want them to have time to explore other interests.

 

That said, we will not be truly determining a "graduation date" for my oldest son until he has completed 9th grade. In our area he is at the very young end for his grade. It is pretty much unheard of for a late summer birthday (boy) to enter K "on time." I am willing to "red shirt" him, if it's what is best -- to allow for maturity to develop rather than "shove" him into content he may not be developmentally ready for. Puberty is a royal pain.:glare:

[Veritaserum]

I don't call my kids based on their work level or say things about how smart they are. It has nothing to do with ego for me that I call my turning-6-next-month-dd "first grader" instead of "kindergartener". It has everything to do with the stupidity of an arbitrary cut-off date of Sept. 1st. I think Dec. 1st (like it is where I grew up) is a much more reasonable date. I'm not going to penalize her and cost her a year of her life simply because she was born five weeks after the cut-off in our current state. My spring birthday kids don't have this issue and I call them grades based on their birthdays, even though they may be working at another grade level.

 

I went to college at 17 (turned 18 during my second semester). I was out of state from my parents and did just fine. In fact, staying home for another year of high school would have been completely pointless and frustrating as I was more than ready to go to college.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I guess I answered this question wrong because I answered it based on what grade level (overall) I considered my child to be working at! When someone asks my kids what grade they are, they just tell what grade they would be in the ps whether they are that grade at home or not. Or sometimes they'll just skip that and tell them how old they are since that's what people really want to know anyway. Otherwise, it doesn't come up because we haven't done co-ops or other classes where grade level matters. The only classes we've done were divided by ability regardless of age.

 

I refuse to play the comparison game of whether what my kids are doing matches other kids in any kind of educational setting, including homeschool. When someone starts to play that game by asking minute questions of what books they are doing or studying, we'll talk in generalities about exciting things we've learned.

[LisaKinVA]

I went to college at 17 (turned 18 during my second semester). I was out of state from my parents and did just fine. In fact, staying home for another year of high school would have been completely pointless and frustrating as I was more than ready to go to college.

 

I completely understand how you felt...because I felt the same way, but my mother was on the opposite side of the coin. She always felt out of place (too young for everything her friends were doing...frustrated, etc.) To this day, she wishes her parents had held her back.

 

It is very much a child-by-child decision.

[kalanamak]

I wholeheartedly disagree... "gifted" doesn't "happen" because PS isn't challenging students, it's an entirely different subset. It's like saying there is no such thing as a learning disability.

 

 

I think this is semantics. I have heard "gifted" used for what I think is technically "bright". The gifted kids are at the small wedge of the bell curve. And the "gifted" programs with 10% of class in them is the BRIGHT students, or mature ones, not "gifted" IMO.

 

We have discussed this, and, while I won't put words in the mouth of the person you are wholeheartedly disagreeing with, I think you mean that less than 1% of population gifted, and she mean gifted as in put in the bright kids coursework, and, later, AP.

 

I think.....:)

[Photo Ninja]

Around here, the schools want students to be older when starting K because they believe it will bring up test scores. Older children can learn some material faster, and if they are older when they start K, many already have basic K skills, and enter K already reading because the preschools in the area push that skill. Thus, increased test scores. It is not to benefit the students. It's mostly about the test scores.

 

That said, I have one dd born in December, who missed the school cutoff date by a few days. It didn't matter because we were hsing anyway. She was already reading when she was 4 yo, and was plenty ready to learn, so we did. When she officially started hsing K she had already completed all the K material and most the 1st grade curriculum in math and reading. It didn't matter. I called her Kindergarten. She worked a grade level ahead all the way through school, but we didn't change her grade level. We always assumed that at some point we could reevaluate and jump her ahead a grade if needed.

 

It was never needed. We hsed her all the way till high school graduation. She started taking cc classes in 10th grade because she was ready. She was at the cc full time in 11th grade, and ended up graduating from high school at the end of 11th grade because she had more than enough credits as well as all college pre-requisites completed. She was able to work at an appropriate academic level regardless of what grade level she was called. She fast-tracked herself. She will finish another year of cc before leaving for a university, so she isn't moving away at 17 yo, but will be an 18 yo junior when she transfers.

 

Hsers aren't stuck with artificially created grade level work. Our dc can work at their own pace, at a level appropriate for them in each subject area. Institutional schools are not allowed that freedom, so some try to make up for it in various ways, including red-shirting.

[Kirch]

The most interesting and depressing thing to me is that somewhere between doing first grade work in K and 12th grade, the learning requirements get weaker and weaker. So, really, what in the world is the point of shoving inappropriate academic work down the throats of 4 and 5 year olds?

 

 

This drives me crazy. Our society pushes the little ones so hard that they lose their childhoods and then we let the high schoolers slack academically.

 

I suspect that if they could find an effective way to push middle/high schoolers, they would do it. It's much easier in the earlier grades because they're not already burnt out (by that very pushing!!), the ones who do/will struggle haven't just given up yet, and because parental involvement is much, much higher in the early elementary grades. It amazes me that so many parents seem to "check out" as far as school just at the point that so many kids become resistant to trying to meet high academic standards. Well, I guess it doesn't really surprise me--it's got to be much easier to settle for "okay" work from a middle or high schooler than to stay on top of him all the time to make sure he's getting his work done and doing his best, especially when parents are starting to feel out of their depth as far as the class content ("It's been 20 years since I took algebra . . ."). I'm sure some people are trying to let their kids be more independent and take more ownership, but kids still need to be accountable.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It amazes me that so many parents seem to "check out" as far as school just at the point that so many kids become resistant to trying to meet high academic standards. Well, I guess it doesn't really surprise me--it's got to be much easier to settle for "okay" work from a middle or high schooler than to stay on top of him all the time to make sure he's getting his work done and doing his best, especially when parents are starting to feel out of their depth as far as the class content ("It's been 20 years since I took algebra . . ."). I'm sure some people are trying to let their kids be more independent and take more ownership, but kids still need to be accountable.

 

But some of this is because the schools don't want parents to be as involved in the schools at the middle and high school levels. And the schools tell the parents to let the kids sink or swim on their own. I've had so many parents (friends as well as tutoring clients) tell me this.

[fhjmom]

But some of this is because the schools don't want parents to be as involved in the schools at the middle and high school levels. And the schools tell the parents to let the kids sink or swim on their own. I've had so many parents (friends as well as tutoring clients) tell me this.

 

When we walked into the parent meeting before the beginning of DD's freshman year at the local public high school, the principal actually said, "Your kids are in high school now. Leave them at the door and we will take care of them. We will let you know if we need anything. It's time for you to let them do it alone." :tongue_smilie:

 

While I expected my DD to be responsible for her own work and encouraged her to take care of things with her teachers herself. I had no qualms however about stepping in with the first-year, alternative-certification-program-and-not-yet-certified, degree-in-film, teaching-the-multi-media-classes-but-still-needed-two-classes-to-fill-his-schedule-so-let's-give-him-a-couple-of-math-classes, geometry teacher that had the students fill in the blanks from a work book as "notes" (in 10th grade geometry!), only graded homework on completion not accuracy (also a fill-in-the-blank from a workbook), never corrected the homework unless a student asked a question and the only "real grades" he took were tests, with no way to bring up bad scores. DD never realized when she didn't understand something because they did *no* evaluation or "real work" at all until the tests, and then it was too late because she would bomb it. Yeah, I was a trouble maker for calling him on his teaching methods - and I used to teach at that school and was a collegue of the now-assitant principal that tried sugar-coat the meeting while trying to support an obviously pitiful teacher (he knew it and he knew I knew it!).:tongue_smilie:

[Kirch]

But some of this is because the schools don't want parents to be as involved in the schools at the middle and high school levels. And the schools tell the parents to let the kids sink or swim on their own. I've had so many parents (friends as well as tutoring clients) tell me this.

 

I can see telling parents to back off as far as not intervening to save a kid from consequences for poor choices (i.e., he gets a bad grade because he put a project off until the last minute) or arguing with teachers over grades that their kids really earned. "Helicopter parents" really do need to let their kids experience the realities of life.

 

But I think that wise parents should still keep tabs on their kids' grades and either help them develop needed skills or hold their feet to the fire if they're not working up to potential. My parents held me accountable for doing my homework well into high school (and woe unto me if they found out I had lied! :tongue_smilie:), and I was a responsible, motivated kid on my own. I think it's reasonable for middle and even high school parents to know generally what their kids are learning, what their grades are, and how they're doing about getting assignments done and turned in. You go from holding their hand to looking over their shoulder, if you will. Many kids just aren't motivated enough to do their best if no one is requiring it of them.

 

All that to say, if schools are truly telling parents to butt out (to the point of not even doing what I described), they shouldn't be surprised with low test scores and uninvolved, unmotivated students. I've subbed in our local district for almost 2 years now, and I can tell you that most of the teachers here would welcome appropriate parental involvement.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Kirch

[Tidbits of Learning]

Schools want you to disappear a lot earlier than high school. The schools are happy if you disappear after dropping off the children and never appear again until picking them up. They want you ignorant and happy not informed and unhappy with their "ways".

[Rosy]

It always seems weird to me when parents deviate from the accepted age/grade standards...maybe because when I was in school, we didn't necessarily do 3rd grade work in 3rd grade. I think that's true in many situations (in public and private schools), but homeschoolers are the ones who are quick to say "my 5-year-old is doing 4th grade math, therefore he is a 4th grader". Does he have the physical development or emotional maturity of a 4th grader? If not, you're not doing him any favors by putting him on the same level with kids who are older. He can do 4th grade work whenever he's ready, that doesn't mean he is equal to 4th graders in every way. And what about when he graduates at 14 or whatever? Does he go to college at that point?

 

Yes, this is a pet peeve of mine. Partly because most of the homeschoolers at our church who are DD's age are in the next grade up, and many who are in her grade are young. So she's grouped with kids who aren't her age or maturity level...but the public schooled kids in her class are her age/maturity level. And she academically ahead. But I have no interest in graduating her early, even if she does finish high school level work by age 16. She can do college level work at home until she's socially and emotionally ready for college. Or live abroad.

 

I just think that homeschoolers can come across as "my child is SOOOO precocious!!" when we move their grades around like that. There is no reason a 2nd grader can't do 5th grade math (or 5th grade everything) and still be called a 2nd grader.

 

And yes, I think it can be really tempting to fly through the "easy" stuff before our kids really master the concepts. I need to be careful of that myself.

[Annabel Lee]

Well I haven't read this whole discussion, just pgs. 1-2. In response to the OP's original post here, you must be in a state with very high, not average, standards. In my state, K isn't even required. Some parents dropped their kids off for the 1st day of school *ever* for 1st grade, at 6 yrs. old, not even recognizing letters or connecting them w/ sounds. Then there's kids like mine and a couple others (in his class at the time, anyhow) who read well beyond their little readers. He wasn't challenged to continue increasing his skills at all. In fact, he was used as a "helper" to aid the teacher w/ kids who needed it.

 

In my area, Abeka is ahead of the public schools overall & in the long run. Maybe the scope & sequence differ slightly but they will be far ahead after grade 6 then a kid from ps. I hate to speak in generalizations like that, but I doubt there are many exceptions to it here locally. The pros & cons of Abeka as a whole curriculum, used alone, to use as a measuring stick is a "whole notha' ball o' wax". ;)