Why key word outlining? I don't understand why this is good...

[Heather in VA]

I've been looking at IEW and I can't figure out why they don't just teach outlining. 3 key words? I don't get it. Help me understand this.

[kRenee]

IEW does teach outlining, but it just starts off very simply with the body of the paragraph. Later, topic and clincher sentences are added. The 3 key word limit is to force you to use your own words when you rewrite. In the upper levels you can relax the requirements a bit, but in the lower levels the temptation to copy phrases out of the source might be tempting, if you didn't have the 3 key word requirement.

[Leah]

Yes, I think it is very helpful in teaching summarization. The Key Word outlines force the student to think carefully about the most important words in a sentence. At first this all seems rather obvious as they are using short sentences, but they must become very particular as the sentences grow.

 

Then KWO's grow into Summary outlines and kids are practiced in finding and noting the key ideas in an article.

 

The pitfall with KWO's is doing them ad naseum...Some people stay with them for way, way too long and never get to the higher levels.

[PeterPan]

That's weird, because I don't get OUTLINING, as in sentence outlining, lol. To me jotting down a couple words that bring the main thought to your mind makes perfect sense. Try it. Take a big long story and jot notes using 6-8 words (3-4 words for each of two key sentences) for each paragraph. Isn't that a whole lot easier than writing down proper sentence outlines with all the points?

[Heather in VA]

Yes, I think it is very helpful in teaching summarization. The Key Word outlines force the student to think carefully about the most important words in a sentence. At first this all seems rather obvious as they are using short sentences, but they must become very particular as the sentences grow.

 

Then KWO's grow into Summary outlines and kids are practiced in finding and noting the key ideas in an article.

 

The pitfall with KWO's is doing them ad naseum...Some people stay with them for way, way too long and never get to the higher levels.

 

Leah,

Does IEW make that transition to higher level outlining? At what point does it do that (if it does).

 

Thanks

[Linda...inOwasso]

Ditto OhElizabeth on this one. Key word outlines make perfect sense to me. Also, what a great way to learn note-taking skills for those long college lectures! :)

[Heather in VA]

I guess what I don't get is that this isn't a note taking program. It's a writing program. I know you are dealing with models in IEW but you aren't when you actually write outside of the program. It seems to me that regular outlining would be much more beneficial when organizing original writing. The structure of topic and supporting information in a regular outline seems better for organization.

 

Thanks!!

[PeterPan]

Well I always hated regular outlining and thought it was utterly worthless, an unnecessary, timewasting step between the conceptual outline (those keywords) and the actual writing. Guess it helps some people, but it just seemed like a big waste of time to me. I like the way SWB/WTM presents sentence outlining in the 5th grade history assignments, because this actually seems to have a PURPOSE. But if the whole point is getting concepts down on paper so you remember enough to write your retelling, then keywords seem adequate to me. And you know, someone more experienced needs to jump in here, because it may be IEW makes a transition in how it takes notes when it does the longer essays. A lot of the early level is focused on single paragraphs and you just do a couple longer projects from sources. I don't recall, in looking over it, how IEW approaches the outlining there.

 

I wouldn't die on this hill. If you want her to write sentences, have her write sentences, kwim? You have to make it your own.

[Leah]

Well, I must admit that if you are a lover of the traditional outline form, this can be disconcerting for people. :)

 

As far as I understand the program and how I use it, the outline process goes like this-

Units 1-2, use the KWO

Units 3 is narration so they spring off idea of KWO's to make notes on the narrative elements that should go into their story (the KWO has taught them to focus on the key ideas for the outline)

Unit 4 and 6-they move to summary outlines and fused outlines so they use the key word idea to make a paragraph outline on ideas, not words. This is now a type of paragraph outlining with the I. marking the topic sentence and the 1,2,3, etc. marking the supporting facts

I think it is unit 8 that actually teaches the essay. Here they apply the work in the KWO and the summary outline to create a 5 paragraph outline.

 

I must tell you right out that this 5 paragraph outline won't look exactly like your standard academic essay outline! :) But I have seen students work through this outline progression very effectively. I do teach my older students to outline quite traditionally, and we start this in junior high, they are very comfortable with it in high school.

[Stacia]

Well I always hated regular outlining and thought it was utterly worthless, an unnecessary, timewasting step between the conceptual outline (those keywords) and the actual writing. Guess it helps some people, but it just seemed like a big waste of time to me.

 

Man, I'm sure glad to hear that someone else thinks the same way! :iagree:

 

Hmmmm. I've been considering using IEW & this is just putting me one step closer to deciding that it is the right program for us to try, lol.

[Lizzie in Ma]

 

I wouldn't die on this hill. If you want her to write sentences, have her write sentences, kwim? You have to make it your own.

 

OH I love that. "I wouldn't die on this hill". What a great way to describe teaching and parenting choices!

[Laura R (FL)]

Well, note-taking is a part of writing, too. In the beginning, the writing process is emphasized rather than thinking of a topic, too. This is accomplished by re-writing a paragraph. Note-taking focuses on the key words, then the students puts the original document away. He then re-writes the paragraph without the temptation of plagiarism because the original is gone. Later, when writing reports, the same exercise is used for note-taking from sources.

 

When the program introduces writing critiques of books, movies, etc, it seems to take a more traditional outline form, but it's really a Q&A with key word answers. But they do teach methods for organizing thoughts that is a blend of the key word outline and the traditional outline structure.

[Colleen in NS]

I've been looking at IEW and I can't figure out why they don't just teach outlining. 3 key words? I don't get it. Help me understand this.

 

I've been wondering about this, in general, too (not related to IEW). I've been trying out outlining myself, following instructions in WTM, in particular, to write out the ideas in sentence form with proper punctuation.

 

Then, I looked in my R&S TMs for upper grades, and find that they teach outlining using key words, and outlining using full sentences. I think the book said you just have to decide which you want to use (but I can't remember right this minute if there was a reason for or against using a particular format).

 

So, while I'm happily outlining away in my history and science books, I'm starting to wonder why I have to write out proper sentences (I'm also practicing rewriting from an outline, so it almost seems like a waste of time to write sentences, but maybe there is something I'm not seeing...or maybe it has to do with making a logic stage student write out full sentences, just for the practice of making coherent sentences, esp. in 5th and 6th grade while he's still solidifying how to write sentences, before he really starts the rewriting from outlines?? Thinking out loud here.)

 

What do you all think?

 

(I guess this is sort of a hijack, but I thought it would fit in here, rather than starting a new thread...)

[MIch elle]

 

Then, I looked in my R&S TMs for upper grades, and find that they teach outlining using key words, and outlining using full sentences. I think the book said you just have to decide which you want to use (but I can't remember right this minute if there was a reason for or against using a particular format).

 

So, while I'm happily outlining away in my history and science books, I'm starting to wonder why I have to write out proper sentences (I'm also practicing rewriting from an outline, so it almost seems like a waste of time to write sentences, but maybe there is something I'm not seeing...or maybe it has to do with making a logic stage student write out full sentences, just for the practice of making coherent sentences, esp. in 5th and 6th grade while he's still solidifying how to write sentences, before he really starts the rewriting from outlines?? Thinking out loud here.)

 

What do you all think?

 

 

 

Topical outlines work just as well as sentence outlines. Do what works for YOU. We prefer topical(R&S/traditional way) or keyword outlines(IEW).

[G5052]

It's not too hard to give a kid a highlighter and have him/her pick out the 3 most important words in a sentence. The 8 y.o. kids in my IEW class that I taught this last year had it down in about a month. I teach it, but I don't comment on their word choices here. If it makes sense to them, it's fine. It also helps to have them do the keyword outline and then "say" the corresponding thought using just the keywords before they write. If they do that a few times they'll learn how to pick better keywords than when they started.

 

And yes, you should press on even if you child doesn't completely get the keyword outlines at first. If you do it as I've described with underlining/highlighting, writing down, saying, and then writing (or dictating), they should basically get it down well enough to move on. If you have to help some after that, it's OK. Don't get stuck on Units 1 and 2 for months. IEW is meant to cycle, and they'll do better the next time.

[Colleen in NS]

Topical outlines work just as well as sentence outlines. Do what works for YOU. We prefer topical(R&S/traditional way) or keyword outlines(IEW).

 

Thanks, MIch elle! I should have just looked in the R&S TM :o before I posted this, for I found my answers there - there are reasons for doing both ways. As for my upcoming 5th grader, I think I'm going with the sentence format for awhile, just to keep him going on constructing proper sentences. And maybe for myself, I'll let myself do key word outlines. :)