Jump to content

Menu

Some fine tuning happening


Miss Marple
 Share

Recommended Posts

Ds#2's plan was to attend the area CC for 2 years during which time he could essentially attend free based on his scores. This was to help give him time to decide on his course of study while getting his GE classes out of the way. The CC has an agreement with the state university and most of the classes transfer.

 

However, we've noticed something different this year and think it can be attributed to the huge influx of students to the CC. We have had trouble with an online class (previous post about physics course) in which there has been no feedback - grades are assigned but no return of essays, etc. so that the student can learn *why* he received the grade. Also it was being co-taught by a philosophy teacher who doesn't appear to realize that this is an entry level non-science major course.

 

I know of other students who are having problems with their instructors. One freshman comp instructor just hasn't shown up for several classes - no notice, the kids sit and wait, and no teacher. Another freshman comp teacher returned a 3 page paper to a student indicating that she refused to grade it because there was a page number error - therefore it was not in MLA format. MLA format is what these kids are supposed to be learning along with composition!

 

I'm thinking that the overload in students at the CC has caused the need to hire additional instructors who are simply not qualified, not equipped, not interested...in teaching these students.

 

We dropped the physics course because I didn't feel that ds should have to email the instructor after every single assignment to find out what he should have/should not have done on the assignment and why he received the grade he received. He was doing fine (A's and B's), but this is a poor learning environment that I didn't want him to experience.

 

So...I asked him yesterday if he envisioned himself at this CC for the next 2 years. He indicated that he had been thinking about that and was definitely not interested. He said the classes are very easy (he's taking trig and U.S. History) and didn't feel he was really learning anything new.

 

He has a renewed interest in Hillsdale and is contemplating the state school where his brother attends. I think he is suffering from 2nd child syndrome. He wants to forge his own path rather than follow in brother's footsteps. So we're back to looking...he still has no idea about a career except that every one that has any appeal to him is a "self-employed" type of business. He sees needs and thinks of businesses that could fill that need. Any ideas about what type of degree this would be? The two things he's talked about are 1. A gourmet restaurant (being chef) because our local town has no good restaurant, and 2. A "good" Christian radio station (owner/manager) because our local offerings are "pathetic".

 

I have been thinking about the previous CC discussions on the board recently and wondered how much the economy and "record enrollment" played a part in our problems there. It has definitely changed from a couple of years ago when my oldest attended. Is anyone else experiencing a difference in quality?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to hear of the issues that your son is facing at the community college. I can well understand that those issues might be arising because of record enrollment. I know that our local community college has enrolled 25% more students while their budget has experienced significant cuts.

 

You mentioned your son's tendency to envision new businesses. I'd say he has an entrepreneurial mindset. He might enjoy the book What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20: A Crash Course on Making Your Place in the World by Tina Seelig which I mentioned before in this thread.

 

Regards,

Kareni

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You mentioned your son's tendency to envision new businesses. I'd say he has an entrepreneurial mindset. He might enjoy the book What I Wish I Knew When I Was 20: A Crash Course on Making Your Place in the World by Tina Seelig which I mentioned before in this thread.

 

Excellent! Thanks for the suggestion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cynthia,

 

Some of the things you mention are concerns that I have for state universities as well. One of my friends is on the faculty of a UNC system school. He reports that with all of the funding cutbacks, they too are relying more on adjuncts. Not to say that all adjuncts are problematic! But until a student is in courses for his major, the quality of instruction is sometimes hit or miss.

 

In a thread months ago, I noted that the LACs are using the promise of graduation in four years as a selling point. It is not clear if students will readily be able to do the same from state universities given the steep funding cutbacks some are facing. Sure, the private colleges are still more expensive. But it also becomes more challenging to do point by point comparisons of some of the state schools with private ones.

 

I would be curious to hear about class sizes at your CC. I think the one thing that allows our CC to maintain its personal touch is the limitation of classroom size. Of course, virtual courses may not have the cap of brick and mortar.

 

Regarding your son's interest in becoming a chef: I learned recently that chef and restaurateur Rick Bayless became serious about Mexican food when doing doctoral work in Anthropological Linguistics! A Well Educated Chef?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been an adjunct lecturer (although not in a community college), I can tell you that these instructors are probably not uninterested or bored or incompetent. They're simply overwhelmed.

 

Many have several colleges to commute among -- a class here, a class there, often miles and miles apart. Some colleges don't offer offices to part-timers, so they're having to work out of their cars. In general, they are out of the communication loop unless they themselves know how and where to aggressively pursue information about all aspects of the way the college works, what's expected, when deadlines are. Sometimes they don't even know whether they have a job until a day before classes start. If they have several classes at different places, none offer them health insurance, and they're given what basically turns out to be a ridiculously low salary when you figure in prep time, grading, commuting, finding things that should be handed to them (book ordering schedules and procedures, grading procedures and deadlines, what's allowed in terms of kids dropping and adding classes). Some of the problem shows in the teachers and what appears to be a lack of preparation, but is actually traceable to the huge surge in students, tight funding, and oftentimes a split between the way knowledge gets distributed among full-time and part-time people. You know -- out of sight, out of mind? Sometimes no one thinks to clue in the adjuncts about things that go on that regular faculty find out about as a matter of course.

 

It really is difficult and disheartening. Now add to that the extra dozens of students (and thus essays) they are expected to take on, for no increase in pay.

 

Yes, it's perfectly possible to get a dud professor. But give them a bit of the benefit of the doubt here. Things are tough for kids in these bigger classes, but they're also tough for their teachers. It takes a while for it to all straighten out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been an adjunct lecturer (although not in a community college), I can tell you that these instructors are probably not uninterested or bored or incompetent. They're simply overwhelmed.

 

Many have several colleges to commute among -- a class here, a class there, often miles and miles apart. Some colleges don't offer offices to part-timers, so they're having to work out of their cars. In general, they are out of the communication loop unless they themselves know how and where to aggressively pursue information about all aspects of the way the college works, what's expected, when deadlines are. Sometimes they don't even know whether they have a job until a day before classes start. If they have several classes at different places, none offer them health insurance, and they're given what basically turns out to be a ridiculously low salary when you figure in prep time, grading, commuting, finding things that should be handed to them (book ordering schedules and procedures, grading procedures and deadlines, what's allowed in terms of kids dropping and adding classes). Some of the problem shows in the teachers and what appears to be a lack of preparation, but is actually traceable to the huge surge in students, tight funding, and oftentimes a split between the way knowledge gets distributed among full-time and part-time people. You know -- out of sight, out of mind? Sometimes no one thinks to clue in the adjuncts about things that go on that regular faculty find out about as a matter of course.

 

 

 

As a former adjunct lecturer, I will agree with your points. Our CC was forced to address them more than a decade ago when it was revealed that very few faculty members were tenured in the NC CC system. When I began teaching at the local CC, faculty were required to have x number of office hours (without pay) for y contact hours with students. Faculty are now paid for their time but a new kink arose last year when part timers were stripped of their offices (or desk space) due to growth at the CC not only with post secondary students but at the Early College High School which uses the facility. My son was in a composition class with a professor who resented losing her office. She refused to have office hours since she did not have an office.

 

It is unfortunate that many of the adjuncts do have to piece together a living. Someone teaching at a CC, a private college and a public university (one class at each) is living with three different systems, different calendars, different rules. Further, my son encountered regular problems with technology at the CC where demand for using Blackboard or the anti-plagiarism software would exceed the system capacity. Instructors were blamed when it was not the fault of the faculty!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've also been an adjunct teacher at a cc, although it was 20 years ago. The pay was awful. The cc would allow only one full-time professor in each department on each campus. All the rest of the teachers at each campus were adjunct. We were required to have office hours, but the office that ALL of us shared was one big room with 20 desks in it. We never knew if we had a class for sure or not. Classes could be cancelled entirely if the enrollment wasn't high enough by the end of the 2nd week of classes. Also, the full-time professor could decide at any time that he wanted more pay and take your class away from you so he could get more money. I was fortunate that the professor didn't want to teach calculus-based physics, so he took the algebra-based class that another person was teaching. The students weren't real happy about it because they really liked their teacher and had signed up for his class specifically so they'd get him as the teacher. There was no warning that this was going to happen either. In November, the full-time professor decided that he needed more money for Christmas and took the course. The students just had to deal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I truly sympathize with the plight of the adjunct instructor. A couple of years ago a physics instructor (for ds#1) was threatened by 2 students in lab. According to ds, the instructor told them to quit goofing around because they were going to harm the equipment, etc. They mouthed off and threatened him (rather vague, but still threatening). This instructor quit saying that he wasn't giving his life for such a poor paying job. Sad because Ds thought he was an excellent instructor. Ds went through 2 more instructors before the department found one to finish off the class (this is the same CC that Ds#2 is attending now - I think the physics department is having long term problems).

 

So while I recognize the problems for the instructors, it still seems to me that the students are being short-changed as well. In my ideal world, I would rather see caps put on enrollment rather than adding instructors who cannot/will not keep up with the work they were hired to do or making the classes too large.

 

I'm not sure about the US History class size, but his trig class is around 20. The online physics class had 14 students, but has dropped to 12. There are 2 more weeks in the withdrawal period so I'll be interested to see what the class size is at the end.

 

This episode and all the CC talk on the forum has me re-examining my plans for the other 2 boys. I wonder how long it will take for these problems to be ironed out or whether they will ever be solved. For ds#1 having the concurrent credits was very important in his scholarship quest. His advisers mentioned frequently that his scores during concurrent enrollment were a deciding factor. I had hoped for similar prospects for the other boys...but it looks like I may have to re-think/re-work my plans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Cynthia,

Here in CA, our CCs are suffering due to ballooning enrollment and serious budget issues at the state level. Perfect storm - cutbacks in courses offered and class sessions along with more students and lax financial aid policies (abuse by some impacts everyone!)! This has made it very challenging for high school students, as special-admit students, to get any classes. A few people I know have managed it this term, but not many. My older son was able to take 3 comp sci courses as a sophomore a couple of years ago, but younger son, now a junior, will probably not be able to take any - at least not this year. So, we are going the much more expensive AP route to achieve the same end of validating the mom-transcript. He is taking AP Chem with PA Homeschoolers (ChemAdvantage - going well so far and he really likes it) and AP Lit here at home with a young woman who is working on her Master's degree in English. That, too, is going well. These classes are taking a substantial amount of time, as was expected. The challenge will be not short-changing his other subjects. We are also going to try Art of Problem Solving's Alg 3 course in a couple of weeks. Math has been an interesting journey...but that is a topic for another thread! Best wishes as you think through all the CC stuff for your son, and know that many of us are thinking it through as well!

Blessings,

April

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So while I recognize the problems for the instructors, it still seems to me that the students are being short-changed as well.

 

Of course they are, and that's truly a deplorable situation. Your initial post mentioned incompetent and/or uninterested instructors, though, and I wanted to give some evidence that this is not necessarily the case. In fact right now any college or university that is hiring has the pick of the cream of the crop -- some entire departments in our nearest state university were wiped out (and the professors got notice BY EMAIL), many new grads cannot find work; there are a ton of highly qualified people out there, but they are struggling with the conditions I and others described.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, we've noticed something different this year and think it can be attributed to the huge influx of students to the CC.

 

We've noticed the same here. When my eldest son was dual-enrolled a couple of years ago at state university, he pretty much had his pick of whatever courses he was deemed qualified for. This year his younger brother is dual-enrolled and he's had to adjust his original plan - the courses he wanted were all filled. The dual-enrollment coordinator explained that there's been an enormous increase in enrollment over the past couple of years. His instructor seemed unprepared and harried (overload syndrome?). He doesn't have his license yet, so I have to drive him, and the traffic jams coming in and out have grown enormously. It's understandable - state university is looking like a better and better deal these days. :)

 

 

he still has no idea about a career except that every one that has any appeal to him is a "self-employed" type of business. He sees needs and thinks of businesses that could fill that need. Any ideas about what type of degree this would be?

 

 

Entrepreneurial Studies? Babson College has an excellent program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My son's Liberal Arts College has an entrepreneurial center. In fact, parents were introduced to a student who opened his own business while a sophomore. Is this a broader trend among the LACs?

 

I'm not sure about a trend, but I just Googled "Top Entrepreneurship Colleges" and found that University of Oklahoma is ranked #11 - so maybe even the major universities are getting on board. Ds is hesitant to go very far from home. Big brother is at OU and is able to come home every couple of weeks. I think Ds#2 likes that idea - all my boys are close and get along well...they sorta miss one another when one is gone. And the tuition is soooo much more in line with our budget. Babson looks fantastic, but at >$50,000 and only a few scholarships, I doubt we could afford it. So maybe we'll look down the list a bit for schools closer to home.

 

We've been discussing this idea today (entrepreneurship) and his eyes have just lit up! I think we're on to something. Maybe the book suggestion above and researching the field a bit will help him put his thoughts into some sort of career model.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My son's Liberal Arts College has an entrepreneurial center. In fact, parents were introduced to a student who opened his own business while a sophomore. Is this a broader trend among the LACs?

 

 

Maybe. Babson isn't a LAC, though. I got a degree there, and the people we were exposed to weren't just students running businesses - they were really heavy hitters in the international business realm.

 

http://www3.babson.edu/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe. Babson isn't a LAC, though. I got a degree there, and the people we were exposed to weren't just students running businesses - they were really heavy hitters in the international business realm.

 

http://www3.babson.edu/

 

Certainly--one associates that with Babson. But not all students with entrepreneurial aspirations want a degree in business or finance. I was wondering as a general question if LACs were assisting physics and history majors with their entrepreneurial ideas. Is this a trend?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly--one associates that with Babson. But not all students with entrepreneurial aspirations want a degree in business or finance. I was wondering as a general question if LACs were assisting physics and history majors with their entrepreneurial ideas. Is this a trend?

 

I haven't done a survey but wouldn't be surprised. Seems like it would be a clever marketing ploy to draw people in. :) By "assisting", do you mean a degree program combining business with science? That would be a practical and cost-efficient approach for the student, particularly if its completion required the omission of some of the extraneous courses that seem to punctuate the first two years. :tongue_smilie:

 

If there is a program like that somewhere, seriously, I'd love to hear about it. :bigear: My eldest is at a LAC and I'm amazed by the number of irrelevant courses he's required to take. My next eldest is getting ready to apply to schools.

 

From my experience, physics or history majors seriously interested in moving into business go for MBA's (or at least double majors as undergrads).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't done a survey but wouldn't be surprised. Seems like it would be a clever marketing ploy to draw people in. :) By "assisting", do you mean a degree program combining business with science? That would be a practical and cost-efficient approach for the student, particularly if its completion required the omission of some of the extraneous courses that seem to punctuate the first two years. :tongue_smilie:

 

If there is a program like that somewhere, seriously, I'd love to hear about it. :bigear: My eldest is at a LAC and I'm amazed by the number of irrelevant courses he's required to take. My next eldest is getting ready to apply to schools.

 

From my experience, physics or history majors seriously interested in moving into business go for MBA's (or at least double majors as undergrads).

 

It seems that I have seen several mentions of entrepreneurship cultivation outside of the classroom. Wake Forest University has such a program. What you mention (dual science/business degree) might make the greatest sense. Students who only study business are often poorly versed in science or technology. They may be great bean counters, but they do not always understand industrial processes or cutting edge technology.

 

Curious: what kind of courses do you think are "irrelevant"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems that I have seen several mentions of entrepreneurship cultivation outside of the classroom. Wake Forest University has such a program. What you mention (dual science/business degree) might make the greatest sense. Students who only study business are often poorly versed in science or technology. They may be great bean counters, but they do not always understand industrial processes or cutting edge technology.

 

Curious: what kind of courses do you think are "irrelevant"?

 

 

 

An excess of courses not directly related to the major.

 

Since becoming involved in homeschooling, my perspective regarding higher education has changed. So much knowledge can be gained by a motivated person independent of the classroom, and tuition costs are overinflated (according to the College Board, if the cost of a gallon of milk had increased at the same rate as tuition costs since 1980, we'd be paying $15.00!). Ultimately, education is just another product to be purchased. And who wants to purchase products for which they have no direct use?

 

Case in point: a semester's worth of community service required for a computer science major.

 

I do see the value of exposure to liberal arts (perhaps some "eminent" scientists who have permitted philosophy to replace evidence and logic wouldn't fall prey to this pitfall if they had learned to recognize the difference between the two).

 

"Bean Counters" generally don't make successful entrepreneurs - there's a much wider array of skills required. And people who are able to master those skills are generally perfectly able to understand the nuances of industrial processing and cutting edge technology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...