Please help with a 4th grader's (Aspie and ADHDer) schedule (long)

[Jennefer@SSA]

My oldest is 9 and in 4th grade. He is an Aspie and has very severe ADHD. School currently is taking him about 7 to 7 1/2 hours a day. I didn't think this was excessive until I read a recent 4th grade thread and saw that the majority are finishing 4th grade in 3 to 5 hours a day. Yikes! :eek:

 

One of our struggles has always been that ds9 is extremely bright yet the ADHD keeps us moving at a snail's pace. He is currently on meds and they have helped eliminate the "H" part of ADHD but the ADD (attention deficit part) is still there to a large degree. Life is much easier than it was as the meds calm him emotionally as well but it has not been the cure I had hoped for. Add to that his Asperger's and the fact he is very right brained (read a slow processor) and our.days.are.just.long. I very much want him to have more free time but not sure how to do that and keep him on track academically.

 

Another thing that slow us down is that he talks non-stop. And I truly mean non-stop. For example, when he is doing math he is orally stating every.single.thought. that pops in his head.

 

Example: Math problem reads, "Sally wants to make cookies for her grandmother. At the store she buys sugar for $2.49, flour for $1.77 and chocolate chips for $2.23. How much change will she get from a $10 bill?

 

Ds begins, "Okay cookies. I don't like chocolate chips but sugar cookies might be nice. Well, first I need to add. Let me write these numbers down..... Okay now I need to add the ones column. 9 +7+3. Well I see a 10 there b/c 7+3 = 10. Then add the 9 and ta-da you have 19. Now for the tens column...." And it will go on like this for each step of each problem all along the way.

 

So ADHD, a slow processor and a non-stop talker. Yet extremely bright and capable of grade-level work and beyond in many areas.

 

Here is our daily schedule and how long it typically takes him. We change up the order continually so this is not listed in any particular order:

 

1. Math - one Horizons lesson daily 5x a week. Plus a Daily Word Problem from Evan Moore - typically 60-90 minutes.

2. Spelling - Spelling Wisdom - 4x a week. Ds is a natural speller so we have chosen to use a dictation spelling program and he has done beautifully with it. We have used it as our grammar program to teach incidental grammar since I will just be starting formal grammar this year - 30 minutes daily

3. Spanish - video based 4x a week. Total time to watch video and complete review sheet is 25-30 minutes.

4. Handwriting - 30 minutes daily 4x a week

5. History - SOTW 4 - about 45 minutes daily. This is one of his favorite things. He wants to read the chapter, listen to the audio version, answer all the questions in the AG and read supplemental books on everything!

6. Science - RS4K Chemistry- 20-45 minutes 4x a week (depending on if we have an experiment that day or not)

7. Logic - one grid perplexor daily - 10 minutes

8. Writing - Writing Tales - 45 minutes daily 4x a week.

 

 

That adds up to 325 minutes of school a day. Add to that lunch and our afternoon read aloud which is about a 45 minute chunk total and we are up to 6 hours and 10 minutes of just school. Add in there restroom breaks, transitions, mom stopping to help little brothers with a need, time spent getting him refocused and so on...we are schooling from 8-4 daily.

 

Please be gentle. I don't want to be slammed. Ds is doing well in school. He likes school. He doesn't complain about what we do but he has mentioned that he wants more playtime with his brothers. I want him to have more playtime. I want us to be outside riding bikes more and adding in art lessons. I want to educate him in such a way that he can meet his potential but not suck up his entire day. Help! :bigear:

[Ottakee]

Can you cut down the handwriting a bit? I can also see that math is taking him a long time--which you know.

 

My daughter was just like him--the ADHD--hyper and very ADD. It took several difrerent medication tried to figure out which one works best for her but WOW the difference is amazing. Instead of an hour to complete something, she could do it in 20 minutes or less.

 

Not knowing your history of med trials, it might be worth trying a different medication, higher dose, etc. Since he responded so well so far, he might do very well with a different med as well. Some meds are better for the attention, others for the hyperactivity.

 

We also find that the Omega 3s really help in addition to the meds. My girls and dh take County Life Omega 3 mood--2 per day. For dh esp. it makes a HUGE difference.

[Unicorn.]

We also use Horizons, and one thing that helps, is to not have them do every problem. I really like all the practice, but I have come to realize, they do better w/ fewer problems. I go through the book each day, and star the ones I want them to do. Sometimes I have them do all problems in a set, if it is short, or for any new concepts. Sometimes I set a timer, and ask them to see how many they can get done in 5 minutes. Some days we break it up and do math for a while, go do something else, come back, do something else, come back etc. This doesn't always work, but it helps!

 

Your ds sounds just like my ds, and my dd. Ds is actually going to private school this year (8th grade) and is doing well. Much better than I would have thought. The nice thing is, his math teacher doesn't assign every problem either.

 

Do as much orally as possible. Can you move the afternoon read- aloud to the evening? Maybe a before bed ritual? Have him do the grid perplexor when you are working w/ your younger ones, or move it to later in the day. Maybe while you are preparing dinner?

 

I have to run, but hope some of this helps. :grouphug:

[dcurry]

I see that you have handwriting and writing as separate subjects. Is he just learning cursive? You could have him just do his neatest work on his writing, and skip handwriting altogether. He's getting the practice writing, which is what you want. That would cut out 30 minutes.

 

My ADD/Aspie 4th grade student is very motivated by a timer. Especially with his math, which could take him hours. Now, I don't want him sitting that long, so I'll give him 30 minutes to finish and then we move on. If it takes him longer, it's done after the other school subjects & cuts into his playtime. That works for us because most of what takes him so long is his sitting & staring, but a timer keeps him on task. Whatever motivates him, you could try using that to help him move faster.

 

If he *gets* the math, but is just taking a long time, you might try doing odd or evens to cut out some practice. 30 minutes on math should be sufficient.

 

That would bring you to about 5 hours. When you take a break to work with the brothers, that's when you should use the timer. ("Try to be done with ______ before I get back and then we'll have time to play"). You could probably be done by 2pm. (Maybe you could work with his brothers during a time like his spanish video or SOTW).

 

I hope you figure out something to shorten his day. It sounds like he'd benefit from some play time.

[Guest]

:grouphug:That's a very long day for both of you. I'm curious, having an Aspie myself, how tired he is at the end of all this. Mine would be wiped so flat I'd have to scrape her off the floor.

 

The handwriting is what jumped out immediately at me, as it did with other posters. You're doing double duty on one of the hardest subjects for an Aspie. If his writing is still difficult physically, I'd stick to the handwriting program; if he is just working on refinement, I'd drop it and do the other writing program --if he likes it, and if that isn't a major source of time drag. Could you cut the spelling time/amount? If he's a natural speller, you could ease up in that area as well -- especially if you're going to begin formal grammar soon.

 

I'd also experiment with doing at least some math orally, to see whether the talking aloud is lessened if he is doing more mental math. Or have him do math standing up and moving around, at a whiteboard with dry erase markers. Same with science -- does he have to do a lot of writing there? I'd let him answer orally as often as possible.

 

The other thing I'd think about dropping is Spanish. Yes, it's wonderful to start a foreign language at this young age; but it isn't necessary, and I'd weigh its worth against the overall feeling that you want him to have more downtime, more time outside, and more free play. If he loves Spanish, there's no reason that couldn't be something he does after the school day is over, however often he likes.

[AngieW in Texas]

Do you do the lessons all in one chunk? It might help if you split each of the lessons so that you're changing things up more. Short lessons really help with ADD, but lots of transitions are hard on Aspies, so that may make your life difficult since your ds has Aspie and ADD all in one package.

 

My Aspie dd can't start a lesson without finishing it all in one chunk. My ADD dd does best breaking everything up into 15 minute chunks.

 

I would drop Spanish unless it's something that your ds desperately wants to do. Sometimes there just isn't room to fit things in.

 

If at all possible, I would drop handwriting entirely. If you have to do handwriting, do it with a timer for no more than 15 minutes.

 

edited to add (because I had to get off the computer before I was finished):

Can you possibly cut the spelling down? If you could do it for just 15 minutes daily, that would help a lot time-wise. I know that would quite possibly mean getting half as much done, but since he's a natural speller, I just can't see spending 30 minutes on it every day.

 

If you dropped Spanish and handwriting and cut spelling in half (can't spelling be used for handwriting?), that would cut out 1 hour and 15 minutes daily. That ought to help significantly.

 

 

1. Math - one Horizons lesson daily 5x a week. Plus a Daily Word Problem from Evan Moore - typically 60-90 minutes.

2. Spelling - Spelling Wisdom - 4x a week. Ds is a natural speller so we have chosen to use a dictation spelling program and he has done beautifully with it. We have used it as our grammar program to teach incidental grammar since I will just be starting formal grammar this year - 30 minutes daily

3. Spanish - video based 4x a week. Total time to watch video and complete review sheet is 25-30 minutes.

4. Handwriting - 30 minutes daily 4x a week

5. History - SOTW 4 - about 45 minutes daily. This is one of his favorite things. He wants to read the chapter, listen to the audio version, answer all the questions in the AG and read supplemental books on everything!

6. Science - RS4K Chemistry- 20-45 minutes 4x a week (depending on if we have an experiment that day or not)

7. Logic - one grid perplexor daily - 10 minutes

8. Writing - Writing Tales - 45 minutes daily 4x a week.

Edited September 10, 2010 by AngieW in Texas

[Misty]

One of my Aspies is a natural speller... We do not waste time on spelling with her.. Have you considered eliminating spelling? My daughter has never had a spelling lesson in her life and she can win spelling bees with ease. She is a voracious reader and seems to have a photographic memory for words. Is that similar to your son? There is really no reason to do spelling with kids who are natural spellers.

 

Other than that, you could rotate history and science.. Do one on M,W,F and the other on T, Th.

 

Also, have you looked into workboxes and using timers?

[HeidiD]

Another thing that slow us down is that he talks non-stop. And I truly mean non-stop. For example, when he is doing math he is orally stating every.single.thought. that pops in his head.

 

 

That's interesting - my son (11, ADD, dyslexic and also very right-brained) does the same thing. It's like the act of speaking is an essential part of his total thinking process. :tongue_smilie: Even when he's reading a book on his own, I often overhear him reading out loud to himself. :) Obviously not the best way to operate in the adult workplace, but for now I'm not doing anything to intervene.

 

I agree with the other posters about reducing or eliminating a few subjects. I've found that we just can't get to every subject every day without a similar marathon to the one you're describing, and we just don't have the stamina (or the inclination :)).

 

So - maybe combine the handwriting with Spelling Wisdom? Have him take dictation and then copy it over a couple more times for handwriting practice?

 

Cut the Spanish to twice a week instead of 4X (or like Karen suggested, ditch it altogether for now)?

 

Customize the math assignments - work on one area at a time. For instance, my 11 yo is presently mainly working on fractions with only a short daily review of long division/multiplication, etc. Focusing on one topic at a time seems to keep him more focused.

 

History - since he loves it anyway, does it have to be a formal subject? Maybe provide him books to read on his own, on weekends or evenings or whenever. None of my kids do history as a formal subject. I use the WTM more as a booklist, pile interesting books and history videos around the house, and they have effortlessly absorbed the subject. I sometimes have them write about history as part of their composition instruction, that's all.

 

With a little juggling, you'll be able to shave off at least a couple of hours a day. Good luck!

[Greta Lea]

My oldest is 9 and in 4th grade. He is an Aspie and has very severe ADHD. School currently is taking him about 7 to 7 1/2 hours a day. I didn't think this was excessive until I read a recent

 

 

My 16yo Aspie *still* doesn't have 7 hours of schooling a day. At the most, his day is 4 hours long.

 

 

 

One of our struggles has always been that ds9 is extremely bright yet the ADHD keeps us moving at a snail's pace. He is currently on meds and they have helped eliminate the "H" part of ADHD but the ADD (attention deficit part) is still there to a large degree. Life is much easier than it was as the meds calm him emotionally as well but it has not been the cure I had hoped for. Add to that his Asperger's and the fact he is very right brained (read a slow processor) and our.days.are.just.long. I very much want him to have more free time but not sure how to do that and keep him on track academically.

 

I totally understand! Sounds like my 16yo just without any reading issues (his is MAJOR math issues). Honestly, I've just always kept things as SIMPLE as possible. Short, simple lessons are the best.

 

Another thing that slow us down is that he talks non-stop. And I truly mean non-stop. For example, when he is doing math he is orally stating every.single.thought. that pops in his head.

 

LOL!!! This sounds like my 16yo ds too! He does all of his school independently now, but he still LOVES to just simply ORALLY narrate after bible, history, science, literature...anything he reads.

 

Example: Math problem reads, "Sally wants to make cookies for her grandmother. At the store she buys sugar for $2.49, flour for $1.77 and chocolate chips for $2.23. How much change will she get from a $10 bill?

 

Ds begins, "Okay cookies. I don't like chocolate chips but sugar cookies might be nice. Well, first I need to add. Let me write these numbers down..... Okay now I need to add the ones column. 9 +7+3. Well I see a 10 there b/c 7+3 = 10. Then add the 9 and ta-da you have 19. Now for the tens column...." And it will go on like this for each step of each problem all along the way.

 

Let him do this for math. I'm like this too. I NEED to say it to process it (especially math!:).

 

So ADHD, a slow processor and a non-stop talker. Yet extremely bright and capable of grade-level work and beyond in many areas.

 

Sigh...I feel your pain. Sounds just like my boy. I can remember when my ds COULD read a book that was 3 grade levels ahead of where he was in school, BUT he didn't have the attention span for those type books. It didn't hurt my son a bit to just let him read the easy, peasy books although he COULD read and comprehend MUCH harder books.

 

Here is our daily schedule and how long it typically takes him. We change up the order continually so this is not listed in any particular order:

 

1. Math - one Horizons lesson daily 5x a week. Plus a Daily Word Problem from Evan Moore - typically 60-90 minutes.

 

Simply set a timer for 15 or 20 minutes, let him work and stop at that point even if the entire lesson is not complete. I still do this with my son, although my son now works on math for 45 minute stretches. Also, I would drop the word problem book. Keep it simple!

 

 

2. Spelling - Spelling Wisdom - 4x a week. Ds is a natural speller so we have chosen to use a dictation spelling program and he has done beautifully with it. We have used it as our grammar program to teach incidental grammar since I will just be starting formal grammar this year - 30 minutes daily

 

 

My 16yo ds is a natural speller too. Drop this! It won't hender him a bit!

3. Spanish - video based 4x a week. Total time to watch video and complete review sheet is 25-30 minutes.

 

This can wait until he's older. I'd drop it. We did a Spanish for years in an outside fun type class when my ds was in elem. school. Honestly, he didn't retain what you'd think they should have retained. He's doing German now for his highschool credit. I'd drop a language until HE asks for it or is highschool.

4. Handwriting - 30 minutes daily 4x a week

 

Have him write on about a line of letters or words. Handwriting should be short and sweet! It should take no more than 10 minutes at the most.

 

5. History - SOTW 4 - about 45 minutes daily. This is one of his favorite things. He wants to read the chapter, listen to the audio version, answer all the questions in the AG and read supplemental books on everything!

 

Both my boys love history too! Let him do what he wants with this!

 

6. Science - RS4K Chemistry- 20-45 minutes 4x a week (depending on if we have an experiment that day or not)

 

I'd only go over if he's doing an experiment and is really into it.

 

 

7. Logic - one grid perplexor daily - 10 minutes

 

Unless he really wants to do t his, I'd drop it.

 

 

8. Writing - Writing Tales - 45 minutes daily 4x a week.

 

I've never used this program, but have looked at it. It reminds me of what I did with my son, but I just made it up as I went along. Dictation was the main "writing" my ds did and I taught him grammar for years via the dication (the grammar done orally). That's what I'd do with the writing tales. Anything you can do orally is great and cuts the time down.

 

 

That adds up to 325 minutes of school a day. Add to that lunch and our afternoon read aloud which is about a 45 minute chunk total and we are up to 6 hours and 10 minutes of just school. Add in there restroom breaks, transitions, mom stopping to help little brothers with a need, time spent getting him refocused and so on...we are schooling from 8-4 daily.

 

Please be gentle. I don't want to be slammed. Ds is doing well in school. He likes school. He doesn't complain about what we do but he has mentioned that he wants more playtime with his brothers. I want him to have more playtime. I want us to be outside riding bikes more and adding in art lessons. I want to educate him in such a way that he can meet his potential but not suck up his entire day. Help! :bigear:

 

And ALL of the things he wants to do and that YOU want him to do are JUST as important as school. We all need down time in order for our brains to process the info we've been learning. I've read an article or two about this very thing recently. It made me feel better about making sure my slow moving 16yo has a "lighter" day compared to his peers. I just try not to compare. My ds LOVES his school day and talks and talks about what he is learning. THAT'S what counts!

 

HTH!