Seeking wisdom from moms of grown (>age24) non-childish/mature sons

[PygmyShrew]

I'm interested in hearing from those of you who have managed to raise successful, diligent, hard-working MATURE sons who are not forever stuck living like some immature-stuck-in-being-19-for-the-rest-of-his-life. I'm reading a great book called THE DECLINE OF MEN about this very subject. My sons are young 8, 5, and 3, but I want to know what all we can do to guide them in this respect.

 

I'm not looking to "debate" whether my below-listed goals are sound. I feel strongly about them as I feel they are godly and are marks of good, Chrisitian young men. I'd love to hear from those of you who've raised such mature men or know of someone who has and know of what factors may have gone into this outcome. Also, I recognize that there are some transition years --- say around age 18 - 22 ish --- where they're getting "set up" to make their own way, but I'm CHIEFLY referring to circa :)post-age 24 manhood.

 

I'm concerned about the trend I've been seeing for years with regard to how men are turning out. Thankfully I married a wonderful man, and I've "interviewed" he and his mom to see what factors may have contributed to him turning out so well, but I'd like to hear from more of you to gain more wisdom.

 

Here's a few characteristics of a mature son and how I'd like MY sons to turn out as adults:

1. hard workers / diligent / possessing SELF-initiative (they see what needs to be done and they do it on their own until it's completely done with NO complaints. Non-procrastinators. Driven to do what they ought/to do their duty before God, wife and mankind.

2. seek to be married and to have children (so many men nowadays seem to act like they have all the time in the world to settle down and have a family)

3. mature man who seeks the good of his wife and family first and not the kind who is excessively into his own hobbies (hunts too much, boats too much, etc. (you meet men nowadays that are into immature habits like video games, excessive watching of TV, Fantasy Football, etc.)

4. a man of integrity/character who loves and fears the Lord and seeks to serve Him and others

5. not selfish (helps the wife with the kids, etc.)

6. a man who values family provision (I do not admire this trend--that's been going on for decades --- of teaching people, men especially, that you need to pick a career path based on your interests/talents ABOVE family provision). (now this is my post and my opinion obviously, but if my son is into CELLO for example, I'm going to encourage him to pursue this on the side, but to pick some profession in which he is interested that is going to have some earning potential) and who GREATLY values his wife being at home where his wife IS ABLE to stay at home without she and the family living in semi-poverty (going without dental care, etc.)

7. who doesn't depend AT ALL on his parents for provisions of any type(doesn't live with them as an adult, doesn't receive money from them, etc.) who FULLY, unreservedly embraces the IDEAL and goal of making his own way armed solely with the love and values and education you've given him in his youth.

 

Thanks!

Amy

[Remudamom]

Hmm, my oldest son at 22 has just married. I think he is all that you described above. He is in college, working a part time job. Adores his wife and I think will always put her interests above his, without giving up his role as leader in the home.

 

He grew up working hard with his dad on the ranch. Homeschooled all the way. Attended NSA for three years. (Attn: don't bother complaining to me about NSA. I won't listen) He is great, but not quite perfect. He thinks he knows an awful lot that he has yet to learn. But he is a hardworking, God fearing man. Will play the occasional video game when his siblings beg him.

 

I don't think you can give a formula for a mature young man. We have been blessed with ours.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know, but make sure you teach them if the object of their affections doesn't appreciate these traits, it's her not him.

 

 

Rosie

[PygmyShrew]

Remudamom,

 

What's NSA?

[mycalling]

:lurk5: I'm about to have my 6th son, so I'm subscribing.

 

PygmyShrew, your avatar is so adorable I can't stand it!

[Hedgehog]

Only one ds here.. a 5yo monkey.. so I'm :bigear: as well :001_smile:

[Carrie12345]

I'm not there yet, but I'm sad to say I've yet to meet ANY young adult man who has checked off that whole list. Even sadder, I only know a few who have by the age of 30.

 

Dh was close (we married at 23), but a little lacking in a couple of those areas. Frankly, I'm impressed with how close he was, considering how ridiculous his mother is. :tongue_smilie:

 

ETA: Dh IS there now, though he still plays an awful lot of video games - with the kids!

[JVA]

Our three older sons are 28, 23, 21......

 

They're on the path that you've described because their dad is a great example for them AND they've seen the results of the delayed-maturity syndrome that is rampant in our country- either flakey dads of friends or slacker big brothers of friends. Very sad. They have inititative, are self-reliant, value education (were hs most of their years) and want to be able to provide for a family one day.

 

I think it's all in how you frame things. We are grateful for God's provisions for us but know we have to work for what we have. The entitlement/welfare mentality is disastrous for our country and individuals. Your ideals are NOT too much to achieve and should be the norm.

[Remudamom]

Remudamom,

 

What's NSA?

 

 

http://www.nsa.edu/

 

NSA is New Saint Andrew's college in Moscow, Idaho. I've never seen a finer bunch of kids than the group that attended with my son and dil.

 

It is affiliated with Douglas Wilson, who has been big in reviving classical education. It is a reformed Christian college.

[Tina]

There are a couple great books by Bob Schultz. One is Created for Work. I can't remember the name of the other one. Christian based, and set up with a short daily reading. I went through both of these with my sons. They are great character building devotions, and written from a working carpenter's life!

 

You may also want to read That's My Son, another book I loved. That one's just for mom. :)

 

My dh has also been a good example of your ideal man, working hard and considering us before himself, and showing faithfulness and service to God and others.

Edited September 2, 2010 by Tina

[PygmyShrew]

There are a couple great books by Bob Schultz. One is Created for Work. I can't remember the name of the other one. Christian based, and set up with a short daily reading. I went through both of these with my sons. They are great character building devotions, and written from a working carpenter's life!

 

You may also want to read That's My Son, another book I loved. That one's just for mom. :)

 

My dh has also been a good example of your ideal man, working hard and considering us before himself, and showing faithfulness and service to God and others.

 

 

I'll look for these titles. thanks.

[Catherine]

My eldest is only 17, but my dh sure fits the bill, except that he's not religious. He is, however, a devoted father and husband, good provider, uber-responsible guy all around and known by others for his motivation, great sense of humor, work ethic and generally no excuses approach to life.

 

His parents divorced when he was 12. Substance abuse was involved. He was temporarily homeless as a kid. He went to many different schools, mostly awful Florida public schools. His parents had no idea where he was for hours, days, of his teen years, and, they did not ask.

 

He was valedictorian of his high school class and went to an ivy league school. He made his way and found a lovely and devoted wife (LOL) and settled down.

 

My point is that I don't think parents should take credit or blame to all of their kids' successes or failures. My 17 yo is a fine, fine young man, and I hope I at least played some role in that, taught him hard work and good character. Love them, honestly and without confusing love with indulgence. Play with them, teach them to be kind and strong and to work hard. Show them that who they are matters, far more than what they own. Keep lovin' them.

[LibraryLover]

My boys are both worker-bees. I don't have any familial experience with slackers in any capacity. My dh is aso an amazing and mature man.

[PygmyShrew]

My eldest is only 17, but my dh sure fits the bill, except that he's not religious. He is, however, a devoted father and husband, good provider, uber-responsible guy all around and known by others for his motivation, great sense of humor, work ethic and generally no excuses approach to life.

 

His parents divorced when he was 12. Substance abuse was involved. He was temporarily homeless as a kid. He went to many different schools, mostly awful Florida public schools. His parents had no idea where he was for hours, days, of his teen years, and, they did not ask.

 

He was valedictorian of his high school class and went to an ivy league school. He made his way and found a lovely and devoted wife (LOL) and settled down.

 

My point is that I don't think parents should take credit or blame to all of their kids' successes or failures. My 17 yo is a fine, fine young man, and I hope I at least played some role in that, taught him hard work and good character. Love them, honestly and without confusing love with indulgence. Play with them, teach them to be kind and strong and to work hard. Show them that who they are matters, far more than what they own. Keep lovin' them.

 

 

This is interesting also....What would your husband say made him so industrious? Having to be? Not being ABLE to moan/groan/whine? Having to plod? Having to compensate for parental inadequacy (sub. abuse)? ....That's awesome that he's risen above and become such a MAN!

[Catherine]

Yeah, I think so too. : ) I think he had to. He already knew as a child he was "going somewhere" and just stuck to his dreams. And, his grandma was a strong positive force in his life.

[mhg]

Yeah, I think so too. : ) I think he had to. He already knew as a child he was "going somewhere" and just stuck to his dreams. And, his grandma was a strong positive force in his life.

 

Go, Grandma! That's wonderful she was there to cheer him on.

[Danestress]

and a 22 year old son who I hope will get there.

 

My husband's parents were not Christians. DH did not know the Lord until he was an adult, and I mean, they never ever even thought about going to church.

 

They were lovely people, though. They were working class people and his mother was always employed full time. DH was a day care/latch key type kid.

 

His parents were very focused on sports. DH did well in school, but he had to motivate himself more in that arena. But they adored my DH. They never let him have a job in high school and paid for everything he needed (including a car and all related expenses) as long as his grades were good and he was involved in sports. His first "job" was when he was at the Naval Academy. He never had another employer besides the military until he was in his 40s!

 

DH is definitely just wired to want to do things right and to set goals and reach them. But in terms of his personal honor and his commitment to his family, I think it's more nurture. I think he had parents who loved him and "filled his cup." It's sort of weird to say he was both a day care kid AND the center of his parents world, but some how, it's true. He was an only child, and I know some people think that makes people selfish, but not him, apparently. He is very compassionate and affectionate and fair. Maybe he would have been that way no matter how his parents acted. Maybe he's just made that way. But I think that even though some of the things about his childhood look like a recipe for disaster, it worked. He wanted to please them, and he did.

[PygmyShrew]

...........But I think that even though some of the things about his childhood look like a recipe for disaster, it worked. He wanted to please them, and he did.

 

That last line struck a cord with me.....perhaps there's something to a child so seeing the parent's devotion and love to them that they develop a strong desire to honor/respect the ones they love as a way of reciprocation. Maybe in adulthood they GO ON to continually have that "love language" of service to those they love. "He wanted to please them" ------ perhaps your DH, in learning to desire to please them, now finds happiness/contentment/pleasure in showing love/care to/for his current family/loved ones.

[In2why]

I have 2 adult sons, ages 26 and 24. Neither depend on us for provisions. Both are mature and upstanding young men. They took very separate paths though and the oldest had a few really rocky years.

 

When I look back I would say there were a few things that contributed to them being men.

 

Everyone is going to say values and good role models, I assume. So I am going to mention the less obvious but important things that I think helped.

 

 

We didn't make our kids so comfortable at home that they couldn't replicate it on their own. I see teens with suites and family rooms just for them. They have cable TV, a phone, computers with Wifi, and the list of expenses go on and on. Very hard for a young person to move out and have it all from the beginning so why ever leave that set up?

 

Team Sports. I think my boys learned cooperation, commitment, determination, and that practice and hard work matters. They also learned how to lead and how to follow.

 

Teach them by example the difference between needs and wants. Too many people are confused about the two and if you are lucky enough to be comfortable financially it is easy to give them too much because we want to see them happy. But material things do not provide happiness, especially if they aren't earned.

 

Life skills. It is important to know how to maintain a home and a car before you own one. It is even more important to know how to jump start a heart (CPR) then it is to jump start a battery.

 

Service. We aren't overtly religious, but we have strong values and believe in ethics and manners. We are also <Gasp> Socialist's in OUR family. We have a large extended family and we help one another out (not financially since we are all self-supporting) but in any way that is needed and we also use the creed 'to each, according to his ability'. Everyone contributes in some way depending on their skills, interests, ability, and time. And family means everything.

 

Lastly the Military. My boys had/have the option of college or the military. One of them chose the military because he told me that he didn't know what he wanted to do with his life, but he knew that if he went to college at that time he would waste our money, and use the time to party. Instead he is serving the Country and going to college at the same time, now that he has been in awhile. :) The military is an awesome choice for him.

[Barry Goldwater]

Give them meaningful work, even at a young age. Kids can handle more than you think...even if the job is done imperfectly, it give them practice and purpose.

 

Encourage them to troll the neighborhood looking for odd jobs to do...I mowed 5 lawns in my neighborhood every week before I was 13...started with my own, older neighbor called me over, started with his, not long before I was mowing his neighbor, etc. etc. Soon I was painting their fences, garage doors, repairing decks, trimming trees/shrubs, shoveling snow, washing / waxing cars and soon had several hundred bucks in my piggy bank!!

 

It gave me a sense of purpose, which has served me well in life.

[rwilliams]

I developed the skills of initiative, desire to work etc....in my teen years because my parents did not provide me with the clothes, activities etc... that I desired. I was motivated to work to have access to the things I wanted. I have to remember that when raising my son, I tend to overindulge him because I remember when all the other kids did this and that or had this and that and I didn't. I on purpose let him "suffer" at times to provide the impetus to work to obtain things.

[Danestress]

He is a pleaser in some ways, but has every good judgement about who to please.

 

The other thing I would say, that I have to remember as a mother of a young man myself, is that when I met DH he was 33 and a widow. My parents fell in love, I fell in love, and after 17 years, I still can't really say anything much bad about him. I honestly just feel that he is a very very fine person.

 

But if I met him at 22 or 24, I would not have seen that as much in him. He did have a job and performed well and wasn't doing anything really wrong (drugs, alcohol) but he wasn't a Christian, wasn't looking for marriage, probably dated around and at times behaved in ways that would seem very immature and selfish.

 

I think you are right to want to have the end in mind - the kind of man you hope your son will be. And I think you are right to not have a mentality that "you get to be a loser until 30, but then you better shape up." But the truth is, people mature through their 20s and not always on the same schedule. My husband was just a better man at 30 than he was at 20. And I am a much kinder, gentler, more thoughtful person than I was at 24, too. Some of our sons may seem selfish and immature at 22 and then evolve out of that as they get older, take their knocks, etc.

 

Don't you wonder if you could meet your father at 22 what he would have been like? My Dad worked soooo hard, and I know he was tremendously handsome at that age. But I bet he was sort of a jerk to women. I do believe that good men get better with age.

[PygmyShrew]

I developed the skills of initiative, desire to work etc....in my teen years because my parents did not provide me with the clothes, activities etc... that I desired. I was motivated to work to have access to the things I wanted. I have to remember that when raising my son, I tend to overindulge him because I remember when all the other kids did this and that or had this and that and I didn't. I on purpose let him "suffer" at times to provide the impetus to work to obtain things.

 

 

That's so hard to do, isn't it? That's much of my concern.....how to raise boys who WANT to work in an affluent society (and no matter if you're middle class or rich in US, --- we're still affluent). I have done good in the toy area. They are not used to getting toys from the stores at all; they don't even ASK for them. They get toys on birthdays and Christmas and even at Christmas my husband and I get them about 2 things each.

 

My husband often reminds me of allowing for that "suffering" and waiting for gratification and how necessary it is.

 

I recall as I child that my sister and I had ATARI wallpaper for well over a year. We wanted the then-rage ATARI. We clipped out every photo of one for all that time so when we finally got one we were SOOOO happy and took great care of it.

 

My own parents were wealthy and they went out of their way for us to live like poor kids. We shared a room and we didn't get things much. Wee shared an old vehicle once we got to high school; and it was one of the OLDEST, CRUSTIEST vehicles at the school. My homework REALLY DID fly out of the floorboard hole (no joke). This gained us a lot of respect from our peers as they knew my father was wealthy and yet we weren't pretentious at all; we lived like everyone else. We learned that material things were of little import. We never had name brands, etc. My mom shopped at second hand stores all our lives. But, now that I'm an adult, I just find that I'm having to work harder to do this for my own kids. I mentioned the safety issue earlier. Neighborhoods just aren't as safe as they were decades ago .... so I can't envision me letting my boys look for odd jobs, etc. Makes me want to go out and buy a small farm to teach these principles.

[PygmyShrew]

Give them meaningful work, even at a young age. Kids can handle more than you think...even if the job is done imperfectly, it give them practice and purpose.

 

Encourage them to troll the neighborhood looking for odd jobs to do...I mowed 5 lawns in my neighborhood every week before I was 13...started with my own, older neighbor called me over, started with his, not long before I was mowing his neighbor, etc. etc. Soon I was painting their fences, garage doors, repairing decks, trimming trees/shrubs, shoveling snow, washing / waxing cars and soon had several hundred bucks in my piggy bank!!

 

It gave me a sense of purpose, which has served me well in life.

 

 

I think this is admirable and what I'd LOVE to do, but the safety issue is of great concern. I think used to it was safer to go through a neighborhood but nowadays I just can't allow that (the pit bull issue for one and the potential perverts for another). I guess car washes in public areas and mowing of yards of church families and doing jobs for grandparents would fit this bill. I'll add this to my list also. Thanks.

[susancollins]

I am reading the book Raising Real Men by Hal and Melanie Young their book is wonderful and it gave me alot of perspective. They are a wonderful family. You can check out their website at http://www.raisingrealmen.com/ .

[mhg]

He is a pleaser in some ways, but has every good judgement about who to please.

 

The other thing I would say, that I have to remember as a mother of a young man myself, is that when I met DH he was 33 and a widow. My parents fell in love, I fell in love, and after 17 years, I still can't really say anything much bad about him. I honestly just feel that he is a very very fine person.

 

But if I met him at 22 or 24, I would not have seen that as much in him. He did have a job and performed well and wasn't doing anything really wrong (drugs, alcohol) but he wasn't a Christian, wasn't looking for marriage, probably dated around and at times behaved in ways that would seem very immature and selfish.

 

I think you are right to want to have the end in mind - the kind of man you hope your son will be. And I think you are right to not have a mentality that "you get to be a loser until 30, but then you better shape up." But the truth is, people mature through their 20s and not always on the same schedule. My husband was just a better man at 30 than he was at 20. And I am a much kinder, gentler, more thoughtful person than I was at 24, too. Some of our sons may seem selfish and immature at 22 and then evolve out of that as they get older, take their knocks, etc.

 

Don't you wonder if you could meet your father at 22 what he would have been like? My Dad worked soooo hard, and I know he was tremendously handsome at that age. But I bet he was sort of a jerk to women. I do believe that good men get better with age.

 

You're right. I met my hubby when we were 20 and we married when we were both 23. He's improved with age, but I think those fundamental character traits were already there then at age 20. He had this horrendously hard jobs (which I can't think of a young man today who'd even DO this sort of work nowadays). He worked two jobs then while at college and never complained; and his bosses just raved about how they had never met a person with such a work ethic.

 

My dad is known by us and most of our acquaintances as one of the hardest working people alive. When my husband came to my house to meet my parents (he came for a weekend), my husband was due to get to my house at around midnight that night. My dad was already asleep and we had made him a bed on the living room couch. (I slept upstairs with sister). Then next morning my dad went into the room at 4:30am and woke him up and said, "It's nice to meet you; you want to go work with me this morning." So my dad took him to the ranch where my dad had his herds. Now usually when my dad took other young men to work the guys would finish out the day, but would decline to go back. My high school classmate was one of them and he told me, "I have NEVER seen a man that can work as hard as your dad." Anyway.....my now husband went with him and when they got back that evening, my dad told me he was the first young man that he'd ever met that knew how to work. So.....he won a large chunk on dad's heart.

 

But...for my husband, I'd say he learned this from his mother. She's a tenacious, hard-worker who doesn't know how to rest. The day after she was diagnosed with the flu, I drove to her house and she was raking leaves and burning leaf piles. My father's mother was similar.....a hard-worker. So....I think maternal work ethic plays a part.

[rwilliams]

I have been trying to search for ways for my child to learn the skills of initiative and the ability to earn money. He already has initiative in alot of ways. One idea we are going to try is instead of giving all of our stuff to Goodwill, we will save it and let him have a yardsale. I also teach him about being frugal. I buy him lots of stuff that I consider to be "good" for him but am always frugal about it. And a personal viewpoint of mine is that working hard is not that desirable. Working smart is. I watched my parents work hard with poor results. I try to work smart. This includes that idea of working hard but also paired with the idea of the type of work also being intrinsically rewarding as well as financially effective.

[PygmyShrew]

I am reading the book Raising Real Men by Hal and Melanie Young their book is wonderful and it gave me alot of perspective. They are a wonderful family. You can check out their website at http://www.raisingrealmen.com/ .

 

 

Sounds good.

[PygmyShrew]

I have been trying to search for ways for my child to learn the skills of initiative and the ability to earn money. He already has initiative in alot of ways. One idea we are going to try is instead of giving all of our stuff to Goodwill, we will save it and let him have a yardsale. I also teach him about being frugal. I buy him lots of stuff that I consider to be "good" for him but am always frugal about it. And a personal viewpoint of mine is that working hard is not that desirable. Working smart is. I watched my parents work hard with poor results. I try to work smart. This includes that idea of working hard but also paired with the idea of the type of work also being intrinsically rewarding as well as financially effective.

 

Good ideas

[nrg]

My oldest is 24 and meets all of your requirements. He is married, works, and is still in school. He is responsible and depends on us for nothing. However, he (and his wife) do love those video games! Maturity is driving that to become groups activities, dinners with friends, etc., but the games are still a big piece.

[Guest raisingrealmen]

Our research has been turning up some scary things about the effect of the current culture on men. We've read that 20% of 26yo men are still living at home with Mom and Dad and that the rate of men in their late twenties with a family and career has dropped from 70% in 1970 to less than a third now.

 

I think the way to avoid our sons becoming a part of the irresponsibility culture is to give them as much responsibility as they can handle as early as they can handle it. So, if you have a 5yo, you can give him the responsibility of putting away the silverware. When he shows he can handle that easily, he get promoted to glasses. :-)

 

As our boys get older, we need to give them a vision for what being a responsible man means. Starting when they're about 12, it really helps to get them doing real things. A boy that age has a tremendous desire to be a man. If you can get him to start doing real things to help the family (like working in the family business or starting his own business) or engaging him in adult activities (like political meetings, men's prayer meetings, or volunteer work), it makes him see he can be active in his world, taking responsibility, instead of just marking time until he gets through school.

 

Hope that makes some sense - it's so busy around here this morning that I'm a little addled. :-)

 

Melanie

[mhg]

Our research has been turning up some scary things about the effect of the current culture on men. We've read that 20% of 26yo men are still living at home with Mom and Dad and that the rate of men in their late twenties with a family and career has dropped from 70% in 1970 to less than a third now.

 

I think the way to avoid our sons becoming a part of the irresponsibility culture is to give them as much responsibility as they can handle as early as they can handle it. So, if you have a 5yo, you can give him the responsibility of putting away the silverware. When he shows he can handle that easily, he get promoted to glasses. :-)

 

As our boys get older, we need to give them a vision for what being a responsible man means. Starting when they're about 12, it really helps to get them doing real things. A boy that age has a tremendous desire to be a man. If you can get him to start doing real things to help the family (like working in the family business or starting his own business) or engaging him in adult activities (like political meetings, men's prayer meetings, or volunteer work), it makes him see he can be active in his world, taking responsibility, instead of just marking time until he gets through school.

 

Hope that makes some sense - it's so busy around here this morning that I'm a little addled. :-)

 

Melanie

 

 

Thanks SOOOO much. I plan to get your RRM book.