Should he be in tears everytime we pull out R&S English?

[Mosaicmind]

We are on our 2nd week of school and only our 4th lesson in R&S English 3 with ds. He is 8, almost 9, and doing 3rd grade work. So far everytime I say we need to get our English done he throws a fit and cries. A couple of time I have sent him to his room only to find him asleep soon after. If I sit with him and do the lesson from start to finish he does ok, but needs alot of coaching.

 

He was in ps last year and they went over basic sentence stuff and some of the parts of speech. I don't know if we should back off of English and just concentrate on phonics and increasing his reading comprehension, fluency, ect or what.

 

Any ideas?

[angela in ohio]

Are you doing it at the same time everyday? It sounds like he might be tired, and I would try switching to a different time of day. If that didn't do it, I would expect that he do the lesson obediently. If, after a while of that, I realized that it was too much for him, I'd switch curriculum. I wouldn't switch right now, because, "I throw a fit and I don't have to do it anymore" is NOT a pattern you want to start this early in homeschooling. :001_smile:

 

ETA: I guess I didn't answer about R&S specifically, though. :) We have used grades 2-8 (twice, starting third time through, though I skip 2 now.) I have used it at grade level. I teach the lesson from the TM, then assign odds or evens of the problem sets for dc to do on their own. Once I check it, if they has trouble, we do the other problems in that set together. When we first started, I would do one of each set together before they started working on their own (for example, we'd do problem #1 on the board together, then I'd assign problems #2,4,6,8.)

Edited August 27, 2010 by angela in ohio

[Donna T.]

I love R&S English but I use it one grade level behind their current school grade, we do atleast half of the lesson orally, and I would fully expect to have to sit with my 8 year old through the whole lesson. My 8 year old is doing R&S 2 and I do work with him through the whole lesson. My 11 year old is just starting R&S 5. He does alot of the lesson independently, but my 8 year old wouldn't be able to do so.

[MrsMe]

I agree with Donna...We're doing R&S 3 w/a 10 yr old. Most use it a year behind. I think 3 is too much for an 8 yr old. I'm not sure why an 8 yr old needs to diagram a sentence at this point. I just get him to understand basic sentence structure, which is what is in R&S 2.

[orangearrow]

My 2nd daughter was like this with R&S English last year. She said it was just too much writing. The tears - the drama! Ahhhhh!!!!

 

I switched her to Abeka 4 partway through last year, which she's just now finishing up (we just started her 5th grade year).

 

We'll start back up with Abeka 5 and see how it goes. I'm determined to not switch her again, because she NEEDS more writing, imho - but we will see.

 

My oldest has never had a moment's trouble with R&S. She loves it!

[6packofun]

I agree. We've done one level over 2 years, too. We do NOT do every grade level of R&S and not before 4th grade, either. Our kids score very highly in English topics on their standardized tests even though we've only completed 2-3 of the R&S books. LOL

[Carol in Cal.]

RS3 was far too difficult for my DD at the 3rd grade level. Far.

 

I know some people just breeze through it, but something about the logic of it, as well as the amount of writing, was impossible for her to grasp and keep in her head.

 

I switched to using RS about a year behind, and replacing most of the writing assignments with Writing Strands and subject area writing so that she would have grade level writing instruction. This worked out pretty well except that we tended to simply start a new book at the beginning of the school year even if we had not finished the old one, so we didn't actually get around to adverbs until pretty late in her education. I recommend holding off, maybe just using FLL2 and learning the memorized definitions for things and parsing simple sentences on the white board. Then next year start over.

[MrsMe]

My 2nd daughter was like this with R&S English last year. She said it was just too much writing. The tears - the drama! Ahhhhh!!!!

 

I switched her to Abeka 4 partway through last year, which she's just now finishing up (we just started her 5th grade year).

 

We'll start back up with Abeka 5 and see how it goes. I'm determined to not switch her again, because she NEEDS more writing, imho - but we will see.

 

My oldest has never had a moment's trouble with R&S. She loves it!

 

We hardly ever write it out. We do all of it orally, except the diagramming I had her pick two and that's it.

[Paintedlady]

I agree with the others about doing the work orally. I've heard SWB say that for the younger grades it's perfectly acceptable to do a large amount of grammar orally, if that helps at all. ;)

[Mosaicmind]

I am doing some of it orally but mostly I am writing the answers down as he tells them to me. He does have to do some of the writing, but not all. I just think maybe it's over his head right now since he isn't even finished with phonics instruction yet. I am not for sure if FLL 2 would be too lite for him though. I haven't looked at it so I don't know for sure. I did FLL 3 with my ds/10 last year and he did well with it, but I thought i would try R&S this year since i heard such great reviews of it.

 

I just hate to ditch it this soon into our year. Unfortunately, I am also looking at ditching Saxon math in favor of Horizons because he can't stand all of the repetitive stuff about it. I don't have the money to be making these kinds of mistakes either.

[johnandtinagilbert]

We are on our 2nd week of school and only our 4th lesson in R&S English 3 with ds. He is 8, almost 9, and doing 3rd grade work. So far everytime I say we need to get our English done he throws a fit and cries. A couple of time I have sent him to his room only to find him asleep soon after. If I sit with him and do the lesson from start to finish he does ok, but needs alot of coaching.

 

He was in ps last year and they went over basic sentence stuff and some of the parts of speech. I don't know if we should back off of English and just concentrate on phonics and increasing his reading comprehension, fluency, ect or what.

 

Any ideas?

The first thing I would do is change the time of the lesson. Since he hates it most, get it over with early. Since you've only done 4 lessons and he was previously in public school, I would stick with this for at least 2 (probably 3) months and make this a "no option" topic. I don't think 4 lessons is enough to decipher if your problem is behavioral, sleepiness, or the program.

 

We never used RS a year behind, so I (personally) would not think that was the problem. For my first round of children, we did RS3 in 3rd grade and moved on through the program at the labeled pace.

 

Are you spending time using the teacher's book and practicing all the oral lessons before he begins? This will make a huge difference b/c it will show you if he understands the lesson, before you begin the actual lesson with him. His frustration may come from lack of understanding.

 

Writing for him is a nice start and with some level of comfort, he should be able to build up to writing on his own by the end of the year (especially is you assign odds or evens only).

 

If after a true test period, instead of buying something else, have him memorize the parts of speech and start marking sentences he writes or narrates to pull out those parts of speech. You'd be surprised at how much sense grammar makes when you are actually applying it :)

 

Best wishes for a happy 3rd grader!

[Lovedtodeath]

A thread that may help you:http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=182771

 

This is a great help as to what to expect from a 3rd grader:

(hang on, it is at the end, after about 6 minutes of video "a 9 year old should be writing the equivalent of 3-5 sentences per day by hand") Edited August 27, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[Hedgehog]

The first thing I would do is change the time of the lesson. Since he hates it most, get it over with early. Since you've only done 4 lessons and he was previously in public school, I would stick with this for at least 2 (probably 3) months and make this a "no option" topic. I don't think 4 lessons is enough to decipher if your problem is behavioral, sleepiness, or the program.

 

:iagree:

 

We're using R&S grammar, and also Saxon for math. As I understand it, they're both very good programs and certainly the Saxon is pricey. It takes a while for my kids to get back into doing anything after a break, so maybe give it a few weeks and see how your son is getting on?

 

And we aren't on the "correct" grade for R&S grammar either, although we did start using the classical curriculum only recently. My 6th grader is nearly done R&S 3, and my 4th grader is halfway through R&S 2. They already know heaps more grammar than what's being taught in PS so I'm not too worried about that. How about trying him with R&S 2?

[EKS]

I just think maybe it's over his head right now since he isn't even finished with phonics instruction yet.

 

I would not add grammar until a child is reading well.

[Melora in NC]

My kids both like Rod & Staff Grammar, but, like many here, we do most of it orally. Often, for my third grader, I make copies of the exercises in the textbook where she is supposed to write the sentences over with proper punctuation and capitalization, and she just marks up the copies, without having the "agony" of rewriting the Entire Sentence. Diagramming is done on the white board, and they really enjoy that.

[Tree House Academy]

Are you having him do everything? If my son understands something, we may do the work aloud only, on the whiteboard, or just one part on paper. We also sometimes ditch the work in the book for the work on the worksheet. We change it up so that my ds is not overwhelmed. Doing every single part of the book would drive my son to tears too. It can be a lot of work with the oral review, lesson work, review and practice, challenges, and then a worksheet. Gosh, I would probably cry if we did all that! LOL

 

ETA: If he is not understanding it, or is not even finished with phonics, I would hold off on R&S 3 for now. My son did R&S 4 as a 5th grader and is doing R&S 5 as a 6th grader. Those books are thorough and advanced and there is no need to match it up with the grade. As a matter of fact, we use HOD and the goal is to have finished R&S 6 by the time a child finishes 8th grade. We are planning to follow that line of thought ourselves. :)

Edited August 27, 2010 by Tree House Academy

[ChrissySC]

I get the frustration too. However, once we start, this soon vanishes after a few weeks.

 

Again, like many, we do a large portion orally. I opt for the worksheets over the book many days. If she is getting the concept, we may even close the book after the inital instruction. I do, however, require her to complete all challenges and reviews. This is only becaus I need to reinforce "thinking" by herself. This is a weak area for us. :)

 

Lighten it up. Maybe do half a lesson? There is no pressure to be at level, just take a look at the PS system, or finish the book. We often pick up the book and start the next year with it.

[Shelly in the Country]

I would not add grammar until a child is reading well.

 

:iagree:

[robsiew]

ETA: I guess I didn't answer about R&S specifically, though. :) We have used grades 2-8 (twice, starting third time through, though I skip 2 now.) I have used it at grade level. I teach the lesson from the TM, then assign odds or evens of the problem sets for dc to do on their own. Once I check it, if they has trouble, we do the other problems in that set together. When we first started, I would do one of each set together before they started working on their own (for example, we'd do problem #1 on the board together, then I'd assign problems #2,4,6,8.)

 

We just started R&S 3 and 4 this year. I also do not assign all the problems. We also don't do many of the "creative writing" assignments. I may add more with my 4th grader as the year goes on though. If there are places where they need to write something over and over (such as a bunch of sentences where they have to label them telling, asking, commanding... etc.) I will let them write "T" for telling, "A" for asking, etc. Basically, I try to make it as painless as possible, yet still making sure they understand the concepts. We always do the oral lessons orally. I have gone to just teaching from their textbook. If I feel they need more then I go to the TE, but my kids have a good grounding in grammar so for right now that's working well.

[Brenda in FL]

I am doing some of it orally but mostly I am writing the answers down as he tells them to me. He does have to do some of the writing, but not all. I just think maybe it's over his head right now since he isn't even finished with phonics instruction yet. I am not for sure if FLL 2 would be too lite for him though. I haven't looked at it so I don't know for sure. I did FLL 3 with my ds/10 last year and he did well with it, but I thought i would try R&S this year since i heard such great reviews of it.

 

I just hate to ditch it this soon into our year. Unfortunately, I am also looking at ditching Saxon math in favor of Horizons because he can't stand all of the repetitive stuff about it. I don't have the money to be making these kinds of mistakes either.

 

I prefer FLL 3 and 4 over Rod and Staff but - my oldest son used R&S 3 and 4. We did most of it orally and then I'd have him do the workbook pages. I can understand the crying if he thinks he has to do all the written exercises! FLL was gentle and thorough and no tears or battles! But you can make R&S work - just try to scale it back and make the workload similar to FLL 3.

 

As far as Saxon - is it the repetitive stuff in the meeting time that's the problem? I always spread that out over the course of the week (or two if its stuff he's solid in). The skip counting can be a chore on both child and parent, so we'll work on one daily and then review one that he knows already. If there is something in the meeting not clicking then we'll do it everyday. Oh - also I'll remind my child that if he can count by 2s today he won't have to do it tomorrow - that can be a good incentive!

 

Oftentimes I just have to gauge where my child is that day and then determine how far to challenge him. If it doesn't get done today - we'll try it tomorrow when we're both fresh.

 

As an example - yesterday ds age 7 had to do the subtraction odd ball fact sheet - to avoid a melt down I laid out all the flashcards and let him use them to do the fact sheet - I felt that was better than skipping it altogether or him having a melt down. I have also given him a completed fact sheet and let him copy that as long as he spoke the problems and answers out loud as he did the work. If he does the fact sheets on his own - no cheating - he gets math fact candy - yumm!

[angela in ohio]

I would not add grammar until a child is reading well.

 

i agree. We always start grammar only after phonics is finished.

[jentancalann]

I didn't read the thread, just wanted to answer quickly that when we started in 2nd grade he was in tears, and when we tried to pick it back up in 6th grade he was close to tears. Same emotion, he just held it in a little better! It certainly isn't for every boy.

[RhondaM.]

No he shouldn't be crying.

 

Are you making him write, or doing it orally? If you are making him write, stop it. Diagram on a white board but otherwise keep it oral.

 

 

 

This is what we did with my oldest two. We did mostly everything orally except for diagramming.

 

I did buy the extra worksheets which are only a couple of bucks. I only used them if he was having a problem with what we were working on, but needed more than oral work. At least with the worksheets the entire sentence does not have to be copied.

 

I'd only resort to having him copy the lessons from the book (odds one day, evens the next) if he was STILL having trouble after all this.

 

But orally worked best and we rarely had to resort to additional lessons.

[StephanieZ]

That is why I switched to MCT.

 

R&S got the job done, but they dreaded it.

 

MCT makes us all smile. It is a delight. And, I think the content is superior. Win-Win-Win.

[Mosaicmind]

That is why I switched to MCT.

 

R&S got the job done, but they dreaded it.

 

MCT makes us all smile. It is a delight. And, I think the content is superior. Win-Win-Win.

 

I looked into MCT and decided against it because of the price difference, but maybe less headaches and crying is worth it in the end.

 

Today we did all of lesson 4 orally and then I had him do the worksheet, which I did all of the writing. No crying! I did tell him that he would have to write some, but not all they wanted him to do. We are going to do a lesson tomorrow so we will see how that goes.

[Lovedtodeath]

I am glad that it seems to be going better.:)

[Quad Shot Academy]

Here is how we use the program:

Child reads the lesson

I do the oral review in the TM

We evens or odds of the lesson unless they have trouble and then we do all in that section.

We do 1 lesson a day unless they are really struggling, then we do 1/2.

If diagramming is already introduced, they do sentences I pick until they get 1 right. Usually it is just 1 or 2.

I photocopy any editing work and have them edit it.

After the whole unit is done, I copy all the worksheets and they work through them for 30 minutes a day. It is open book, but they need to mark the ones that they needed the book for.

I tell them that if they do poorly on the test, they will have to go back and do all the exercises in writing (evens or odds). I encourage and instruct them into how to study.

We give the test. I have never had a child bomb it!

[CalicoKat]

I buy the extra practice worksheets that go with each level and use it like their workbook for the year. Not all lessons have an extra practice sheet and those lessons are done orally. The lessons with worksheets they do, but they're short and if it's a concept they're struggling with we do it together. They write. I read along and affirm their answers or correct them as we go.

 

The level 2 book we do only orally.

 

My kids start out hating it but after they get past the first lesson with diagramming they're OK.

 

I decided to approach it this way because it is a written skill they're working so they should progressively work towards more writing.

[Geo]

No he shouldn't be crying.

 

Are you making him write, or doing it orally? If you are making him write, stop it. Diagram on a white board but otherwise keep it oral.

 

If it's not about writing then I would suggest getting FLL2 or a used copy of the combined FLL 1/2 and going through that orally and quickly. Then, you may want to consider sticking with FLL for third grade because it is a workbook.

 

I transition to R&S in 4th grade because I have the 4th grade book, but if I was just starting out I would stick with FLL through 4th to lessen the amount of writing necessary.

 

Also, our grammar got easier around here when we memorized the parts of speech. memorize the definitions for Noun, verb, pronoun, adjective and adverb to start and things start making more sense.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

Geo

[Rosy]

My 4th grader, who loves school, and will eagerly do almost anything I throw at her, begged me to let her stop doing R&S after about 12 weeks of trudging through it. She found it painfully dry and boring. We switched to FLL3 and love it. I think FLL3 is roughly equivalent to the 3rd grade R&S book content-wise, if that helps.

[Marie in Oh]

They learned alot, but they dreaded it as well. It is a bit dry. We are now using CLE and love it.

[Susan in TX]

I'd just drop it for now. Everything in the R&S 3rd grade Grammar book is covered in the 4th grade grammar book. My daughter did the 3rd grade book and was able to skip the 4th grade book and go on to the 5th grade.

 

There is tons of repetition and review in Rod and Staff grammar. If you waited to do grammar until 5th or 6th grade, all the material could easily be covered in 2 to 4 years.

 

Also, I would not do grammar with a child until they are done with phonics and reading fluently.

 

Susan in TX