MockingJay

[Elisabeth in IL]

Is there a thread out there discussing the book? I'm not sure what I think about it yet. Not sure what the author is saying about government, about human nature, about love. I can't believe this is a young adult book!!! Lots to think about and discuss...anyone have any thoughts?

[LauraGB]

I'm only a few chapters in. Did you read the first 2 books?

 

I agree - LOTS to think about and discuss. (But I want to finish the 3rd before I do, so if I have any self control at all - and that's questionable - I will not open this thread again until I have finished :tongue_smilie:.)

 

Just wanted to bump this for you.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I finished it last night. Catching Fire is by far my favorite. MJ was less dynamic, more brutal, and definitely melancholy for me (I tend to dislike books that put me in a melancholy mood...). I'm still trying to figure out what I think. I, too, agree that there is so much to discuss, but I'm not sure my brain is capable of it at the moment. :)

[Elisabeth in IL]

 

I'm not sure my brain is capable of it at the moment. :)

I know exactly what you mean. Since I read it so fast, all in one day, I think that I may need to reread it. I had a hard time at the beginning knowing if Katniss should become the MockingJay....both governments had major issues. Freedom seemed to be lacking in both places......

[Forget-Me-Not]

Yeah, I was up until 2 a.m. reading it just to finish it, and I think I need to go back and review some of the end :D My brain is foggy today.

[Belacqua]

It certainly brings up some interesting ideas about the nature of forgiveness.

[Elisabeth in IL]

It certainly brings up some interesting ideas about the nature of forgiveness.

 

I'm wondering what you mean? Are you refering to a specific part of the book or specific character? I don't see a lot of forgiveness....just characters dealing with what they've been dealt.

[Farrar]

I also stayed up too late reading it on Tuesday. I'm such a dork that I already posted my review on my blog (see the link in my siggie if you're interested...)

 

The themes don't surprise me for a YA novel at all, but then again, I read a lot of YA. The series is thought provoking, but I can think of a number of other YA books that are similarly so, if not more so - such as MT Anderson's works or the much loved The Book Thief.

 

I adored Suzanne Collins's other series - the Gregor books. From that I got that she likes ambiguity in her endings and I wondered how she would deal with that while still giving the fans the resolutions that everyone wanted - for the political issues and also the romantic triangle. I'm pretty happy with it - things resolved, but in a quieter, sadder way and not a big climatic one. I thought Gale's ending was the most interesting (I'll try to be unspoilery for those unfinished with the book... too bad this forum doesn't have spoiler tags!) for a lot of reasons, but in part because he was such a fan favorite.

 

Overall, I think the ending had to be sort of melancholy because to have an upbeat ending would have betrayed what the author was trying to say about the scars of war.

[Farrar]

By the way, now I'm imagining other uses for spoiler tags on the hive... like, "Hey, if you haven't finished SOTW 1 yet... :spoiler tag:the Roman empire falls!!! Can you believe it! I thought that empire would last for-ever!:spoiler tag:"

[Belacqua]

I'm wondering what you mean? Are you refering to a specific part of the book or specific character? I don't see a lot of forgiveness....just characters dealing with what they've been dealt.

 

I think I was approaching the idea both specifically and generally.

 

Specifically, I found interesting Katniss's almost instant decision that she would never be able to forgive a certain action [i'm being irritatingly vague; are we allowed to discuss details, or are we waiting until people have had more time to read the book?].

 

Generally, it's exactly as you said: people dealing with what they've been dealt. Having to move on with your life and decide whether you can forgive yourself and other people for things that might seem almost indefensible.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I'm pretty happy with it - things resolved, but in a quieter, sadder way and not a big climatic one. I thought Gale's ending was the most interesting (I'll try to be unspoilery for those unfinished with the book... too bad this forum doesn't have spoiler tags!) for a lot of reasons, but in part because he was such a fan favorite.

 

Overall, I think the ending had to be sort of melancholy because to have an upbeat ending would have betrayed what the author was trying to say about the scars of war.

 

You've said exactly what I came back to say now that I've had a little more time to think about it. I missed the dynamic, heart-racing style of #2. I missed the interesting personalities working together. #3 felt much more melancholy, but realistic in terms of how COSTLY war (to use a very broad term) is. The toll it takes on the land and all people involved (whether they are on the 'right' side, or not). And begs the question, 'What are you willing to give (and give up) to fight for something you truly believe is right?'

 

I liked it less than the others because I tend to dislike melancholy books, but it had to be that way. I'm happy that the overall story was resolved and there was some hope at the end. As a pp mentioned, it was interesting how the author decided to play out the role of Gale.

[Farrar]

I missed the interesting personalities working together. #3 felt much more melancholy, but realistic in terms of how COSTLY war (to use a very broad term) is. The toll it takes on the land and all people involved (whether they are on the 'right' side, or not). And begs the question, 'What are you willing to give (and give up) to fight for something you truly believe is right?'

 

 

Melancholy doesn't bother me so much in a book. I know some people have complained about it, but I liked the way the plot actually pulled away from the climax it seemed to be heading toward. The second book was definitely not my favorite... too much fashion ;)

 

I think the the question about whether you would fight for something you think is right is played out really well here. Most people think of this as being a straightforward issue, but it's rarely that simple. Katniss has to decide if she's going to fight when she knows she can't simply change the whole world and that many of the people in power on both sides are corrupt. She has to decide if she can make a difference within that framework.

[Elisabeth in IL]

I think that the book made me question how is war done....what is one able to do in war without it being a crime against humanity. Do we fight the way the enemy fights or are we better than that? Is it winning at all costs? Then once you have won, how do we reconcile and live together in harmony? The book made me think of World War II and Japan, the Civil war, and finally how do we need to conduct ourselves in our nations current situation.

[nmoira]

I know exactly what you mean. Since I read it so fast, all in one day, I think that I may need to reread it. I had a hard time at the beginning knowing if Katniss should become the MockingJay....both governments had major issues. Freedom seemed to be lacking in both places......

I don't think the issue was so much freedom as imposition of control on personal life. These aren't quite the same thing. One can make an strong argument for the necessity of rationing of goods and assigning of jobs in 13, but not for the structure and limitations imposed on free time. It was no accident there was little joy in 13. Likewise with the Capitol -- media was government controlled, anyone could disappear at any time (a fact which the populace was unconsciously if not consciously aware) -- but forced frivolity and the drive to be fashionable overshadowed all other pursuits and were in themselves all-consuming. No joy<-->all "joy." These are presented as two sides of the same coin. Citizens, slaves, bread and circuses, human shields, power, control. Hierarchical control. Like Octavia Butler said: "We are a sadly hierarchical species. And the hierarchical tendencies that we have do seem to be old, and more likely to dominate our intelligence, so that we use our intelligence for silly purposes sometimes."

 

People were drawn to Katniss precisely because time and time again she transcended her packaging/programming/limitations. She wasn't particularly clever (Gale) or wise (Peeta), or good (Prim) but her essence couldn't be contained, and eventually neither could her song. She had no place in a hierarchy.

Edited August 27, 2010 by nmoira

[duckabell]

My head was spinning after I read this book. It seemed more brutal than the previous two books. I had previously been a Gale fan, but his development in this story disenchanted me and after finishing the book I reflected that, yes, it had been Peeta all along. After coming to that realization I was sad that you didn't see the true Peeta in this book.

 

One irony that I found was that she started her journey in the first book to save her sister, but in the end, it was her sister who died.

 

A question that has been running through my mind is, was Katniss a pawn, even at the end, or was she always in control of her actions? Are we sometime all pawns? This book also displays the same historic lesson that oft times the rebels are as bad or worse as the oppressors.

 

Sorry I'm all over the place, but my last thought is that even though this book was emotionally hard, I appreciate that she presents that war and victory aren't about glory, but about pain. The heroes in this book leave much more battered, and broken that other similar books that I've read. And even though, after many years they prevail, they acknowledge that they will never be the same.

[nmoira]

One irony that I found was that she started her journey in the first book to save her sister, but in the end, it was her sister who died.

Literally and symbolically because Prim was good.

[nmoira]

A question that has been running through my mind is, was Katniss a pawn, even at the end, or was she always in control of her actions? Are we sometime all pawns? This book also displays the same historic lesson that oft times the rebels are as bad or worse as the oppressors.

It's intentionally ambiguous. *I* think at the end she was simply discarded/banished on the surface, but was really rewarded by Paylor (remember what she said about Katniss having earned/deserving the right to see Snow). Katniss was no longer a threat to anyone because she wasn't being used.

[Farrar]

I had previously been a Gale fan, but his development in this story disenchanted me and after finishing the book I reflected that, yes, it had been Peeta all along. After coming to that realization I was sad that you didn't see the true Peeta in this book.

 

I was always sort of leaning toward Peeta, so I was glad for him. But mostly I felt like their differences were highlighted most clearly. And while Gale's desire to fight had seemed more appealing in the previous books (as in, hey, he's someone who wants to *do* something - who stands for action!) in this book it felt like he was ruthless and perhaps for winning at any cost. I think Peeta's true self was missing (which was too bad) but at the same time, Katniss had to find in herself the parts of Peeta that drew her to him, which I really liked.

 

A question that has been running through my mind is, was Katniss a pawn, even at the end, or was she always in control of her actions? Are we sometime all pawns?

 

 

The complaint I've already seen about the book the most is that she should have become a leader in this book, but she remains a pawn. I think this is the typical narrative structure that one would expect - girl gets pushed around, girl takes control! But Collins was trying to make the story more complex than that. Katniss is a pawn, but she's also always able to decide within that how to act. The end, where she decides not to kill Snow is certainly one example of how she continues to make decisions for herself, even when she's being pushed around by others. I guess to me, this is just more real. Even Snow and Coin weren't free to do whatever they wanted - they were playing each other and their respective populaces had control over them. I took from it that we are all pawns - or at least, we aren't free to act however we want - we have restraints that can't simply be changed. However, that doesn't mean we're powerless. We can still decide what to do and make a difference within that framework, even if we can't change the things we want to change the most.

[Kim in Appalachia]

By the way, now I'm imagining other uses for spoiler tags on the hive... like, "Hey, if you haven't finished SOTW 1 yet... :spoiler tag:the Roman empire falls!!! Can you believe it! I thought that empire would last for-ever!:spoiler tag:"

 

:lol:

 

It's funny, but my 8 year old, when he was 6, cried when he found out the Roman Empire had fallen. We had spent the first have of the school year reading a kids version of Plutarch lives, and reading other stories of Rome. He was so into it. He wanted (and got) the Playmobile Roman set for Christmas. We we got to stories about the Vikings and he realized that Rome had fallen, he fell apart. It was so cute. :001_smile:

[Word Nerd]

Mockingjay was a powerful conclusion to the series and left me with much to think about. I was surprised at how emotional and melancholy it made me—not so much because of the actual story but because of its themes.

[nmoira]

Please help me think through the Mockingjay metaphor. It means so much more than just being a symbol of the rebellion. Both sides were trying to use Katniss as their own mouthpiece -- think jabberjays, but for sending messages, not retrieving them. But it broke down because she couldn't stay on message... but...

 

the song at Rue's death (a meadow, which in Mockingjay is eventually a mass grave)

The Hanging Tree

 

Off to mull.

[nmoira]

Throwing something else out...

 

I was reading some of the negative reviews on Amazon and other sites, and was taken the number of reviewers who hate the book because they thought it was going to be or should have been a romance. "Team" this or "Team" that like Peeta or Gale or Katniss had no more depth than cardboard cutouts. I loved that Collins didn't make it that kind of romance... that Katniss didn't just look over at Peeta one day, and *sigh* get all giddy over him. It would have been every bit as wrong as if Collins had made her the leader that some of the "Team" Katniss folks envisioned. All that girl ever wanted to do was to live without fear or interference.

[Farrar]

Please help me think through the Mockingjay metaphor. It means so much more than just being a symbol of the rebellion. Both sides were trying to use Katniss as their own mouthpiece -- think jabberjays, but for sending messages, not retrieving them. But it broke down because she couldn't stay on message... but...

 

the song at Rue's death (a meadow, which in Mockingjay is eventually a mass grave)

The Hanging Tree

 

Off to mull.

 

I saw some interesting interviews with Suzanne Collins about the central metaphor of the mockingjay. She compared the mockingjay to Katniss saying that both were things that never should have existed. The mockingjay was a natural animal that had come from a mutt and a wild animal that was an unexpected thing of beauty - it had the powers of the mutt, but also its own mind. Katniss also shouldn't have existed - someone who knew how to think for herself, how to care for herself, coming from the poorest district - it never should have happened. Both Katniss and the mockingjays were essentially made by the capital when the capital wasn't paying attention to what it was doing.

 

I felt like the supposed debate at the start where Katniss has to decide to be the mockingjay or not was sort of false. I don't think there was much to decide and in a way I thought it was the weakest part of the book. I see that she's deciding whether she can be used on their terms or not, which continues some of the themes. But the reality is that she was already the mockingjay and it has little to do with her decision to make propaganda for 13.

 

The Hanging Tree song was very interesting to me. How dark it was... I feel like I still haven't totally teased apart that part of the story.

[nmoira]

 

Salon article: Bella Swan (I haven't read these... tried, and didn't last more than 2 pages) vs Katniss Everdeen in terms of empowerment. I usually enjoy reading Laura Miller's POV, but I think she's missed the boat on this one.

[Murphy101]

Specifically, I found interesting Katniss's almost instant decision that she would never be able to forgive a certain action [i'm being irritatingly vague; are we allowed to discuss details, or are we waiting until people have had more time to read the book?].

 

I'll jump right in. I think Katniss had already forgiven him. I don't tnk it was about that. Forgiveness or not, every time she would think of Kale, it would be tainted by this incredible pain of her sister. In the book, she doesn't think of forgiving him and neither does he. She thinks of the pain of their broken relationship. She wants to think they can continue on broken, that somehow she will cope with it. But the reality is that she knows deep inside, this is the kind of break that never really heals. I think she was right. I didn't think it was about forgiveness. I think it was more like her mother not being able to return to living in district 12. The constant memory was just too painful.

 

I loved Peeta from the very beginning. His personality instantly reminded me of my dh.

 

I'm glad Peeta was different in book 3. I think it gave deeper meaning to the book and to their relationship. I imagine there were more than a few young boys in the past who weren't the same after being a POW. Somehow when they came back, they had to figure out how to love again. And those they returned to had to figure out how to love the changed person. I think it was very hard. And sadly sometimes it didn't happen.

 

I think Katniss was a pawn. I think she knew it. I think that she was doing the best she could to make her own stand, to make the most lasting positive change. Snow was going to die regardless. She shot Coin because she knew Coin was just as bad as Snow. I think she held out a ray of hope until the hunger games were being considered again. That's when she knew. She knew she wanted revenge just as bad as those others, but she refused to cross that same line. That line that said it was okay to sacrifice kids for revenge against others. I get the impression that without Coin pushing for it, that the Games were never done again. I don't think Peeta would have ever been able to talk her into children otherwise. Though I think she lived in fear that political winds would change and require a heavy price of her again some day.

 

My oldest boys are reading it next. Can't wait to discuss it with them.

[orangearrow]

It took me a while to finish the book. I couldn't blow through them like I did with the first two - there was just too much....

 

It took me a while afterwards to mull the whole thing over.

 

It's taken me now (a week after reading) to fall in love with it.

 

I love that the series didn't take a Twilight/heartthrob vs heartthrob angle, which it so easily could have. And I love that the price of war was not idealized. Nothing was ideal. NoONE was ideal. There was REAL loss, a REAL price to be paid for choices made (unlike Twilight). It was ugly!!!

 

It was horrible to read, sometimes, and I'm 99% sure that I wouldn't make it through a movie of it (!!! I can't do movies like this!!!) - but... it was "right." The fact that Katniss never became a major leader was realistic - she was what she was and that, in itself, was what it had to be -and the parameters within she had to work. The fact that the main male characters were deeply changed & affected by what they'd been put through was true. The understanding between Katniss and her mentor there at the end. The loss of Prim, the choice to not kill Snow... All of it was very raw, thought provoking, and brilliantly completed.

 

I understood Gale more than any other character. :lol: It's left me wondering what, exactly, that says about me. :tongue_smilie: But, in the scene that Katniss realized she was broken and DONE with the war, the killing - and she looked up and saw, in Gale's face, that it had had the opposite effect on him ... well, at that point in the book, I could relate to Gale exactly and felt what he was feeling.

 

And Peeta just broke my heart in this book. Wow.

[Murphy101]

and she looked up and saw, in Gale's face, that it had had the opposite effect on him ... well, at that point in the book, I could relate to Gale exactly and felt what he was feeling.

 

This is the part I think that let her know their relationship was broken beyond repair.

[Farrar]

Salon article: Bella Swan (I haven't read these... tried, and didn't last more than 2 pages) vs Katniss Everdeen in terms of empowerment. I usually enjoy reading Laura Miller's POV, but I think she's missed the boat on this one.

 

Wow. That was interesting. I have read both series. The Twilight series is mostly horrible. The writing is abysmal. The messages about women are just scary. I mean, she marries her stalker. Ew. But they make me laugh and I enjoyed them on a funny, sort of messed up level.

 

I feel like she's right that Bella has one quality that gives her an edge over Katniss - she knows what she wants and almost never waivers. She sticks by her decisions and lives with the consequences (mostly). Katniss doesn't know what she wants... at all. But I would counter that makes her more human, more relatable. As well, why should that one characteristic outweigh all the other good qualities she has. I do agree if you changed the narrative and she liked all the stuff they do to her it would make her different sort of character. But she's not that character. She's the heroine and as such, she's all noble. Duh.

 

I already said in an earlier post that I think she is her own person, not just a pawn.

 

I also think that the focus on the outfits and appearances has been manipulated in a strange way. I'm not sure how to fully express my feelings about that. I liked that there was less of it in this last volume - I honestly didn't "get" it about the clothes until all the hubbub about them after the second volume - I had just skimmed right over it, like reading about the fish in a Jules Verne novel. I feel like there's a lot of messages against relying on appearances and putting too much energy into looks and how empty that is. Some of that is over the top obvious. But also about how important looks can be when organizing around a cause. But then apparently the outfits and the focus on looks has been one of the draws of the book - because many readers are interested in it. My mind is bending with the meta. Oy.

[Belacqua]

 

I feel like she's right that Bella has one quality that gives her an edge over Katniss - she knows what she wants and almost never waivers. She sticks by her decisions and lives with the consequences (mostly). Katniss doesn't know what she wants... at all. But I would counter that makes her more human, more relatable. As well, why should that one characteristic outweigh all the other good qualities she has. I do agree if you changed the narrative and she liked all the stuff they do to her it would make her different sort of character. But she's not that character. She's the heroine and as such, she's all noble. Duh.

 

 

I agree with the bolded. Katniss isn't a traditional epic hero on a quest for adventure and fulfillment; she's just trying to stay alive and keep her family fed. She hasn't the luxury of too much navel-gazing.

 

Not having read the Twilight books, I can't really comment on the writing, but I did think the Salon article's author was a bit snitty when she said Collins was "more culturally literate by far" than Myers. The Twilight author seems to know her audience and its tastes very well, and just because she doesn't load her books with metaphor and classical references doesn't mean she's unfamiliar with them.

[Bee]

at the end of Mockingjay he is starting a new singing program. Which made me think of things like American Idol and all those so called reality shows and Deadliest Catch where they showed Phil Harris getting ill and several shows after that leading up to his death (don't know if it was actually on camera 'cause I thought it was too morbid to watch) and just how much we are being manipulated by the media. And then there are those comparisons to the last days of Rome and how the emperors kept the populace entertained so they wouldn't turn against whoever currently held power.

 

Maybe instead of team Edward/Jacob/Peeta/Gale we ought to consider Katniss vs. Bella. Uggh... Bella wants Edward.That's all she wants. She's not a heroine that I'd like my daughters to admire or that I admire.

[meet me in paris]

Maybe instead of team Edward/Jacob/Peeta/Gale we ought to consider Katniss vs. Bella. Uggh... Bella wants Edward.That's all she wants. She's not a heroine that I'd like my daughters to admire or that I admire.

:iagree:

I read the Salon article. I thought it was junk. Anyone that can say that Bella is more empowered than Katniss just because Bella knows what she wants (Edward) is smoking crack. Bella is a damsel in distress that constantly needs to be saved... Katniss takes matters into her own hands, and performs best when she goes with her gut and ignores the advice she's given. No, she doesn't know who she loves... so what. She's 17.

:001_smile: Did I mention that I love Suzanne Collins?

 

[Murphy101]

:iagree:

I read the Salon article. I thought it was junk. Anyone that can say that Bella is more empowered than Katniss just because Bella knows what she wants (Edward) is smoking crack. Bella is a damsel in distress that constantly needs to be saved... Katniss takes matters into her own hands, and performs best when she goes with her gut and ignores the advice she's given. No, she doesn't know who she loves... so what. She's 17.

 

:iagree: now why don't you tell us what you really think?:D

 

The poor girl was so preoccupied with far greater worries that she really didn't have time to sort her feelings. And once she did, there seemed to be no sorting necessary. Relief that Kale won't be a constant reminder of her sister's death. Quiet peace that Peeta is exactly right for her and came home to her.

[Tree House Academy]

I just finished this book today (after reading the whole series in a matter of hours over the last 3 days) and I loved it. I wish there had been more Peeta in the last book - more of his sweetness. Knowing what had been done to him would never be completely reversible, I found myself not trusting him as much. I was shocked that Katniss' mom went to another district after losing so much...she then seperated herself from the last daughter (family member even) that she had left. I also wish that the story of the pearl hadn't just died away right after the handcuff key clinks into it. That is the last you hear of it and now it is gone - when she mentions the "stuff" that Haymitch retrieved for her, it is not among the things. I guess, in a way, she has the real Peeta now and not just this pearl for a memory, but gosh! :(

 

I really wanted to see them come back together...not just be told in two lines that they did. I wanted to see him be sweet again and love her again. I guess I wanted more than the story was willing to give me. Katniss loved him from the minute she felt the real kiss in the cave...even if she never admitted it to herself until the very end.

 

Of course, remembering what she and Peeta went through together, the bond they have to share for enduring those scars and the wars/battles in this way. The ending is really perfect for the tone of the book.

[Heidi @ Mt Hope]

I had to think about it for a few weeks (and talk it over with a couple friends) before I was able to review it, but it's up on my blog now.