FABULOUS anti-patriarchy article by Mary Pride!

[cathmom]

http://www.home-school.com/Articles/phs89-marypride.html

 

Finally, somebody has some common sense!!!!!!

[Renee in NC]

I thought so too! I am so glad she write this, considering she is considered the "mother" of patriarchy!:ack2:

[Daisy]

AMEN!

[snickelfritz]

:iagree:

[Laurie4b]

It was a good article but would have been better if she'd admitted any culpability at all. My recollection was that her book was overly authoritative in tone and made some debatable positions (such as what types of physical interactions husbands and wives should have, birth control, etc.) sound as if they were the only possible biblical position on that issue. That type of "holy authoritative pronouncement" uses the same process that the patriarchy movement does. If it's content differs from hers, who cares, really? The process is what is dangerous.

 

Both the extremes of the patriarchy movement and her own extremes played on people who are vulnerable to being told, "This is God's way," (by some author they've never met no less) and then never letting their own sense get involved lest they be rebelling against God.

 

That is my recollection of her book. I read it over 20 years ago, so I may be mistaken.

[The Girls' Mom]

Great article!

[Ellie]

I thought so too! I am so glad she write this, considering she is considered the "mother" of patriarchy!:ack2:

 

Really? I would never have thought that. :confused:

[Daisy]

It was a good article but would have been better if she'd admitted any culpability at all. My recollection was that her book was overly authoritative in tone and made some debatable positions (such as what types of physical interactions husbands and wives should have, birth control, etc.) sound as if they were the only possible biblical position on that issue. That type of "holy authoritative pronouncement" uses the same process that the patriarchy movement does. If it's content differs from hers, who cares, really? The process is what is dangerous.

 

Both the extremes of the patriarchy movement and her own extremes played on people who are vulnerable to being told, "This is God's way," (by some author they've never met no less) and then never letting their own sense get involved lest they be rebelling against God.

 

That is my recollection of her book. I read it over 20 years ago, so I may be mistaken.

 

I haven't read any of her other stuff so I don't have a clue how culpable she is.

 

Hopefully, with more people being willing to speak out about this movement, the pendulum will swing back to the balanced middle ground.

[CLHCO]

I'm relieved she wrote this. I am very concerned about what the Bible says about the role of husband/wives, parent/child, but there are whole books written giving instructions to young ladies and fathers that are pulling from things I just do not see in the Bible, but to disagree, even gently, gets you immediately discredited. :mellow:

Edited August 25, 2010 by CLHCO

[herbalgirl]

Oh, wow! That was a great article. Thanks for posting.

[justamouse]

it's a start.

[Heatherwith4]

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Great Article! I stumbled across this one last week about the meaning of helpmeet:

 

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ezerkenegdo.htm

[cathmom]

It was a good article but would have been better if she'd admitted any culpability at all. My recollection was that her book was overly authoritative in tone and made some debatable positions (such as what types of physical interactions husbands and wives should have, birth control, etc.) sound as if they were the only possible biblical position on that issue. That type of "holy authoritative pronouncement" uses the same process that the patriarchy movement does. If it's content differs from hers, who cares, really? The process is what is dangerous.

 

Both the extremes of the patriarchy movement and her own extremes played on people who are vulnerable to being told, "This is God's way," (by some author they've never met no less) and then never letting their own sense get involved lest they be rebelling against God.

 

That is my recollection of her book. I read it over 20 years ago, so I may be mistaken.

 

I agree about her book. She is not my favorite author, that's for sure. At one point in the The Way Home she notes that spanking is illegal in Sweden, and then says, "No wonder their suicide rate among teens is so high" like it's a direct correlation.

 

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

 

I felt physically ill when I read that.

[Liza Q]

Thanks so much for posting this!!

[RegGuheert]

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

Me! Me! :seeya:

 

I think if I were the Dad, I would need to make careful judgment about whether she would have an electric razor, a Bic razor or (gulp!) a straight razor.

 

But seriously, what useful skill does this teach the daughter?

[Renee in NC]

Really? I would never have thought that. :confused:

 

I have actually read places where patriarchy is "traced back" to that book. I don't know if it is true or not because I never read her book, but for her to come out and publicly say the equivalent of "Y'all are crazy!" is a GREAT thing.

[Renee in NC]

Me! Me! :seeya:

 

I think if I were the Dad, I would need to make careful judgment about whether she would have an electric razor, a Bic razor or (gulp!) a straight razor.

 

But seriously, what useful skill does this teach the daughter?

 

My boys shave dh's head with a regular disposable razor. However, they aren't BLINDFOLDED while they do it!:lol: It's something they like to do.

[chiguirre]

I read The Way Home when we started homeschooling and it certainly seemed very patriarchal to me. I'm glad to see that Mary Pride has mellowed over the last 25 years, because that book was pretty over-the-top. In fact, if I had been at all doubtful about homeschooling, it would have pushed me in the institutional school direction. OTOH, it did clue me in on lots of things to avoid if you have to blend in among quiverfull or patriarchal homeschoolers.

[Renee in NC]

I read The Way Home when we started homeschooling and it certainly seemed very patriarchal to me. I'm glad to see that Mary Pride has mellowed over the last 25 years, because that book was pretty over-the-top. In fact, if I had been at all doubtful about homeschooling, it would have pushed me in the institutional school direction. OTOH, it did clue me in on lots of things to avoid if you have to blend in among quiverfull or patriarchal homeschoolers.

 

Have you read any more recent things, especially things from Vision Forum? I wonder how extreme it seems compared to some of those things!

[RegGuheert]

My boys shave dh's head with a regular disposable razor. However, they aren't BLINDFOLDED while they do it!:lol: It's something they like to do.

Yeah, I've let the a couple of my kids hold my ELECTRIC razor against my face because they were curious about what I was doing.

 

Hmmm...I wonder if any Moms let their daughters shave their legs?

[Catwoman]

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

 

:eek::eek::eek:

 

The whole concept of purity balls is distasteful to me, but the shaving thing strikes me as just plain sick and bizarre! :ack2: Who came up with these ideas?

 

Thankfully, I'd never heard of anything like this stuff until I joined some online homeschooling groups. I don't know anyone IRL that participates in anything like that.

 

Cat

[cathmom]

I still have The Way Home. I'll have to reread it and see what I think.

[LG Gone Wild]

I never read her other book. I just read the linked article. Sounded fine to me. Her Star Trek analogy was funny.

[momofkhm]

I never read her other book. I just read the linked article. Sounded fine to me. Her Star Trek analogy was funny.

 

:iagree:

 

# Father-daughter events where daughters are blindfolded (the better to hear and follow their father's commands) and perform intimate acts of service, such as shaving their fathers (the better to learn to serve their future husbands)

 

# Daughters being told to stay home until married (no college) to "serve" their fathers until they get a husband they can "serve" in turn

 

That's just not right. Would never happen at my house. No one would go for it.

 

I do have to say I like the broad view of patriarchy, but this article is more how it plays out at our house. Broad view = The dad has final say.

 

The only Mary Pride books I've ever read are Big Book of Home Learning series.

[NCMom]

I thought so too! I am so glad she write this, considering she is considered the "mother" of patriarchy!:ack2:

 

Though I never remember seeing her say anything specific about it, I know I've read this multiple times, and for the life of me cannot remember where. I have read her books The Way Home andAll The Way Home (still have this one in a box somewhere;); it is my guess is that it is her philosophy that a woman's body is not her own that sparked a lot of this.

 

BUT, I'll also bet that a piece of it came from the whole Gentle Spirit debacle. :glare:

 

Georgia

Edited August 25, 2010 by Georgia in NC
grammar!

[CLHCO]

 

BUT, I'll also bet that piece of it came from the whole Gentle Spirit debacle. :glare:

 

 

 

What was the "Gentle Spirit" debacle? Not a reference I'm familiar with. Maybe it's because I'm sure I'd flunk that one.

[Ellie]

I have actually read places where patriarchy is "traced back" to that book. I don't know if it is true or not because I never read her book, but for her to come out and publicly say the equivalent of "Y'all are crazy!" is a GREAT thing.

Which book? "The Way Home"? If so, I didn't get any kind of patriarch-y kind of vibes from it. If not, then I don't know which book you're referring to. :-(

[Jen+4dc]

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

No, you're not!! It's freaky and creepy to me.

 

My dd has gone to several Daddy-Daughter Balls sponsored by the Armed Services YMCA for military men and their daughters. Every year for years she's seen me dress up and go to the Marine Corps/Navy/Chaplain Balls with her dad and always thought it would be fun. They have a blast but none of the ASYMCA balls have been religious at all!

Me! Me! :seeya:

 

I think if I were the Dad, I would need to make careful judgment about whether she would have an electric razor, a Bic razor or (gulp!) a straight razor.

 

But seriously, what useful skill does this teach the daughter?

 

I can think of none, not one. Ugh.

[jewellsmommy]

I thought the article was great. But, I have not read anything else from her so I can't weigh in on the other opinions.

 

Oh, and the blindfolded shaving thing was WEIRD! :001_huh:

[NCMom]

What was the "Gentle Spirit" debacle? Not a reference I'm familiar with. Maybe it's because I'm sure I'd flunk that one.

 

Oh sorry, just google her name and Gentle Spirit; and it'll come right up I'm sure.

 

 

Georgia

[Renee in NC]

Which book? "The Way Home"? If so, I didn't get any kind of patriarch-y kind of vibes from it. If not, then I don't know which book you're referring to. :-(

 

Yes, that one, but it isn't *me* that thinks that - I've never read the book. I have seen references to it from other authors that pro-patriarchy (and some that are anti-patriarchy as well.) It made me not read it, because, well I think that patriarchy goes beyond bizarre into the realm of dangerous.

 

If I were going to get my PhD in psychology or something like that, I might research the impacts of patriarchy on the women/girls/boys in that lifestyle.

[Rebecca VA]

I was reading Mary Pride's materials 17 years ago (I found out about homeschooling when my son was two), and for years I read everything of hers that I could get my hands on. I have never, ever had the impression she believes women are subservient. She has two engineering degrees from RPI. I think she took seminary classes when her husband was studying for his seminary degree. She has written books and published a magazine under her own name, with her husband giving tech and business help in the background. Her oldest daughter earned a dual degree from Patrick Henry College. Mary Pride has been a powerhouse in the home education movement for many years. I scoff at anyone who says she believes in subservient women.

 

Even Ana and Sophia Botkin (Geoff Botkin's daughters), who made a video about how girls shouldn't go off to college but should stay home and help their dads, have softened their position somewhat. They're not promoting girls going out into the world or anything, but they're encouraging girls to be strong, to be educated, to be versatile, and to be assets to men who want to do great things in the world. They've clarified their stance to say that unmarried daughters should be actively helping both parents, not usurping the roles of their mothers. Their Visionary Daughters blog is very sensible and really inspiring.

 

I do think some organizations have gone way overboard on patriarchy. In moderation patriarchy is Biblical and a wonderful thing. But you can take it too far, even more far than the Bible does (ever hear of people being more holy than God?) and end up a legalistic, judgmental mess.

[LG Gone Wild]

I was reading Mary Pride's materials 17 years ago (I found out about homeschooling when my son was two), and for years I read everything of hers that I could get my hands on. I have never, ever had the impression she believes women are subservient. She has two engineering degrees from RPI. I think she took seminary classes when her husband was studying for his seminary degree. She has written books and published a magazine under her own name, with her husband giving tech and business help in the background. Her oldest daughter earned a dual degree from Patrick Henry College. Mary Pride has been a powerhouse in the home education movement for many years. I scoff at anyone who says she believes in subservient women.

 

Even Ana and Sophia Botkin (Geoff Botkin's daughters), who made a video about how girls shouldn't go off to college but should stay home and help their dads, have softened their position somewhat. They're not promoting girls going out into the world or anything, but they're encouraging girls to be strong, to be educated, to be versatile, and to be assets to men who want to do great things in the world. They've clarified their stance to say that unmarried daughters should be actively helping both parents, not usurping the roles of their mothers. Their Visionary Daughters blog is very sensible and really inspiring.

 

I do think some organizations have gone way overboard on patriarchy. In moderation patriarchy is Biblical and a wonderful thing. But you can take it too far, even more far than the Bible does (ever hear of people being more holy than God?) and end up a legalistic, judgmental mess.

 

:lol: and :iagree: with the stuff I put in bold.

[Chris in VA]

FWIW, with the blindfold thing--

It's two separate examples, NOT shaving your dad while you are blindfolded. The sentence was poorly constructed.

 

Not that I agree with it, just wanted to point that out.

 

Don't know of any dads who would think that is a good idea. :D

[CLHCO]

Oh sorry, just google her name and Gentle Spirit; and it'll come right up I'm sure.

 

Ah, ok. I remember it now. :001_huh:

 

 

Even Ana and Sophia Botkin (Geoff Botkin's daughters), who made a video about how girls shouldn't go off to college but should stay home and help their dads, have softened their position somewhat. They're not promoting girls going out into the world or anything, but they're encouraging girls to be strong, to be educated, to be versatile, and to be assets to men who want to do great things in the world. They've clarified their stance to say that unmarried daughters should be actively helping both parents, not usurping the roles of their mothers. Their Visionary Daughters blog is very sensible and really inspiring.

 

 

This is very good to hear. The initial response I had towards "So Much More" was not very comfortable, and I had high hopes of that being a good book for my daughters, sort of a "Do Hard Things" for Christian young ladies. I admit I didn't even finish reading it because I felt it was so far off base on the "mini-help meet" emphasis, so I confess that if they clarified anything later in the book, I would have missed it. My daughters won't be reading that book, though they've read "Do Hard Things". "So Much More" has too much extra-biblical in it to wade through for the good in it to be worth the read.

Edited August 25, 2010 by CLHCO

[WishboneDawn]

Great Article! I stumbled across this one last week about the meaning of helpmeet:

 

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/ezerkenegdo.htm

 

Awesome article!

 

It makes much more sense. God declares he'll make Adam a helper then makes a whole bunch of animal and then Eve. Well darn it, animals can be very helpful. Why didn't God just stop when he got to the oxen? :)

 

But if God declares he'll make Adam a partner equal in power then the next passage makes much more sense. It reinforces the idea that humans, male and female as He created us, have dominion and a special place in creation by explaining that all the animals were made but there was no equal among them. There was no equal until Eve.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

unmarried daughters should be actively helping both parents, not usurping the roles of their mothers.

 

I'm probably not very widely read on the subject of subservient daughters and the whole daughter under the father until she is under the husband discussion. Or anything that suggests that women should always take lesser roles than men in church, home and work. I have only sons and I'm far too independent and strong willed to think that the relationship that I may have with my husband somehow gives other men authority over me.

 

Having said that, I would think that a Biblical an unmarried daughter would be under the control and direction of her mother, rather than the father. That would seem to be in keeping with a Proverbs 31 woman who directs the maidens or with the Titus direction for older women to counsel younger women. If a father has authority over his daughters as head of household (and that is an if that I'm proposing for the sake of discussion) then why would that not properly be executed through the authority, direction, discipline and good example of the mother.

 

Of course, my husband does refer to me as the House Despot, with authority over most things at home without needing to refer to him for counsel or permission. When I am asking his opinion on things like home furnishings, its because I want to make it a home that is also welcoming to his tastes and hobbies, because I honestly like spending time with him, even looking at couches and bookshelves, and because I've learned that my hunk o' weight-lifting, military-career-serving, volunteer-firefighter husband actually has a much better eye for color and design flow than I do. (He's not hanging all the pictures just because it involves a hammer. Most of the tools in our family were part of MY dowry (joke). But he'll come up with a pleasing, balanced, asymetrical display. I'll just get them up off the floor.)

 

Update: About college. I probably became a better Christian through my time in the military. I am certainly a better homeschool teacher because of my Naval Academy academics and shipboard engineering jobs. I have leaned on my military experience in situations from leading Boy Scout troops to heading babysitting coops. Strong men and women need each other. Life is hard enough without a strong person by your side. One of my favorite scout leader quotations was from a mother of 5 daughters and no sons who was a long time scout leader. She said she was in scouts because she wanted there to be competent, reliable, strong men for her daughters to marry. I have to say I feel the same way about the need for strong, resourceful, confident women for my three sons.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Sophia]

I didn't like the article.

 

Her writing is disappointing and often lacks clarity; she has several people on this thread believing patriarchal families send their daughters to events with their fathers so they can shave them while they're blindfolded :001_huh:.

~As an aside, blindfolding someone so they can concentrate on listening to the designated "voice" is a fun activity that we have done with our young children. It's an exercise in listening carefully and trusting the speaker (in our case it was their father~horrors!) and ultimately used to point them to listening to and trusting their heavenly Father.

 

Which brings me to my second point: it seemed to me she made an awful lot of assumptions.

 

Literally, "patriarchy" means "father-supreme-leadership." However, in the Christian home (and the Patriarchy movement is a Christian movement), Jesus is Lord, not Dad. So right from the start, the emphasis is in the wrong place.

 

In our home, dh is the final authority and leader. However, that does not translate to Lord (Savior) nor (and I realize none of you know me irl, but trust me on this) does it mean that I stand around waiting for his instructions :lol:

 

I'm also not sure where she gets her belief that patriarchal families have usurped the mom's role in teaching the womanly arts.

(First of all, dh does often jump in when my girls are cooking. He's a better cook than I am and cares more about food, so... whatever, Mary Pride.)

 

She asks: Who biblically is supposed to teach the young women?

Fathers are to teach all their children: (Deuteronomy 6:7 NKJV) "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."

 

This verse is very important to dh and me, and yes, we are aware of the Titus 2:3-5 mandate. We don't see a conflict.

 

Argh, I'm going to stop here although there's more that bugged me.

[CLHCO]

I'm also not sure where she gets her belief that patriarchal families have usurped the mom's role in teaching the womanly arts.

 

This is the area I actually agreed with her, strangely enough, though I agree with much of what you wrote. She seems to be having a knee-jerk reaction, looking at the worst in the movement, and making it seem like the norm. We all need to be cautious that we do not do the same.

 

In this area she's partly referring (I think), to the Botkins sisters book, a big hit in the patriarch movement. I am not a fan of that book, even where I agree with you that there is no conflict with fathers instruction and a mother's mandate. I simply did not like the approach they took. I admit, I didn't finish the book, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. I didn't finish it because it wasn't what I had hoped for, and simply decided not to have my daughters read it. Much of the book seemed to suggest a daughter is to go be a mini-help meet to her father. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with a daughter honoring and working along side her father in his vision, but they pushed this with never a mention of a mother's role, as though she was nothing more than an after-thought. My husband has a help meet. That's my role. My sons aren't practicing headship over me, any more than the help meet role is one the daughter practices on her father. Even if I agree with some of the principles they were trying to put forward, it gave me a weird feeling. I've seen enough "turn off brain - follow method" nuts in my life to be cautious when an poorly balanced approach can be ran with in an unhealthy manner. So, in that area, I think I see where Pride is coming from. I've tried to bring this up before (not here) and was shot down as though I am in defiance against a husband's leadership role for even suggesting they aren't perfect. Knee-jerks seem to be plentiful. Sigh.

 

Oh, and I shoo my husband out of anything to do with meal plans if he tries. He knows it's my domain because in this case, we'd be eating nuked corn dogs every other evening if he planned it. ;)

[Geo]

I didn't like the article.

 

Her writing is disappointing and often lacks clarity; she has several people on this thread believing patriarchal families send their daughters to events with their fathers so they can shave them while they're blindfolded :001_huh:.

~As an aside, blindfolding someone so they can concentrate on listening to the designated "voice" is a fun activity that we have done with our young children. It's an exercise in listening carefully and trusting the speaker (in our case it was their father~horrors!) and ultimately used to point them to listening to and trusting their heavenly Father.

 

Which brings me to my second point: it seemed to me she made an awful lot of assumptions.

 

Literally, "patriarchy" means "father-supreme-leadership." However, in the Christian home (and the Patriarchy movement is a Christian movement), Jesus is Lord, not Dad. So right from the start, the emphasis is in the wrong place.

 

In our home, dh is the final authority and leader. However, that does not translate to Lord (Savior) nor (and I realize none of you know me irl, but trust me on this) does it mean that I stand around waiting for his instructions :lol:

 

I'm also not sure where she gets her belief that patriarchal families have usurped the mom's role in teaching the womanly arts.

(First of all, dh does often jump in when my girls are cooking. He's a better cook than I am and cares more about food, so... whatever, Mary Pride.)

 

She asks: Who biblically is supposed to teach the young women?

Fathers are to teach all their children: (Deuteronomy 6:7 NKJV) "You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up."

 

This verse is very important to dh and me, and yes, we are aware of the Titus 2:3-5 mandate. We don't see a conflict.

 

Argh, I'm going to stop here although there's more that bugged me.

 

This article would not be directed toward your understanding of patriarchy...trust me on that. In reference to teaching younger women,

the context is about womanly arts such as relating to a husband and one's children...not a father teaching a child in the home. You don't

see a conflict because your husband isn't seeking to dominate every aspect of female functioning.

 

Extreme patriarchy does exist...you may be incredulous because you have not experienced this abuse, but it does exist. I have witnessed some of it.

Even Michael Pearl has denounced it, and that is saying something. His wife Debi wrote "Created To Be His Helpmeet".

Geo

Edited August 26, 2010 by Geo

[Sophia]

This article would not be directed toward your understanding of patriarchy...trust me on that. In reference to teaching younger women,

the context is about womanly arts such as relating to a husband and one's children...not a father teaching a child in the home.

 

Extreme patriarchy does exist...you may be incredulous because you have not experienced this abuse, but it does exist. I have witnessed it.

 

Geo

 

Geo, I don't doubt extreme patriarchy exists. If she had said there are some extreme cases within Christian families where fathers are the leaders and final authority, I would have no quarrel.

I believe she overstated her case and made some false assumptions.

 

Re. the teaching...I still don't see the conflict. Relating to a (future) husband and one's (future) children falls under interpersonal skills, not womanly arts in our home and I'm glad to have dh's help in that area. :001_smile:

Edited August 26, 2010 by Sophia

[Ellie]

Yes, that one, but it isn't *me* that thinks that - I've never read the book. I have seen references to it from other authors that pro-patriarchy (and some that are anti-patriarchy as well.) It made me not read it, because, well I think that patriarchy goes beyond bizarre into the realm of dangerous.

 

If I were going to get my PhD in psychology or something like that, I might research the impacts of patriarchy on the women/girls/boys in that lifestyle.

Well, *I* read it back when Mary first wrote it, and I don't remember anything about its being patriarchal. She writes about how she had been a die-hard feminist and became a mother of many children. She talks about the biblical roles of women, but I can't discern anything that smacks of patriarchy, and believe me when I tell you that my spidey senses would have noticed if there had been.

 

I think you should read it for yourself. :)

[Ellie]

Though I never remember seeing her say anything specific about it, I know I've read this multiple times, and for the life of me cannot remember where. I have read her books The Way Home andAll The Way Home (still have this one in a box somewhere;); it is my guess is that it is her philosophy that a woman's body is not her own that sparked a lot of this.

 

BUT, I'll also bet that a piece of it came from the whole Gentle Spirit debacle. :glare:

 

Georgia

I cannot tell you how disappointed I was to hear about Mary's involvement in that.:glare:

[Sophia]

 

In this area she's partly referring (I think), to the Botkins sisters book, a big hit in the patriarch movement. I am not a fan of that book, even where I agree with you that there is no conflict with fathers instruction and a mother's mandate. I simply did not like the approach they took. I admit, I didn't finish the book, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. I didn't finish it because it wasn't what I had hoped for, and simply decided not to have my daughters read it. Much of the book seemed to suggest a daughter is to go be a mini-help meet to her father. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with a daughter honoring and working along side her father in his vision, but they pushed this with never a mention of a mother's role, as though she was nothing more than an after-thought.

 

I have not read the book although I own it.

I have met the Botkin family several times and listened to Geoff, Victoria and their children share their hearts.

Considering what I have heard from them and the concerns you and Mary Pride raise, I will surmise that the girls failed to clearly communicate their entire message in their book.

The Botkin children have the highest respect for their mom.

They describe her as "subordinate in everything (to her husband), inferior in nothing." She is so obviously the heart of the home, and admired by her daughters that perhaps they failed to realize readers would not necessarily recognize her strong presence, but instead think mom was getting pushed aside.

 

I dunno.

 

I do know it is not their intent to have daughters replace moms as "mini help-meets."

[Geo]

Geo, I don't doubt extreme patriarchy exists. If she had said there are some extreme cases within Christian families where fathers are the leaders and final authority I would have no quarrel.

I believe she overstated her case and made some false assumptions.

 

Re. the teaching...I still don't see the conflict. Relating to a (future) husband and one's (future) children falls under interpersonal skills, not womanly arts in our home and I'm glad to have dh's help in that area. :001_smile:

 

Help and input is not the same as replacement. She's addressing the extreme. I have witnessed such replacement type of leadership. Final authority is not the problem...it's singular authority.

 

Geo

[Sophia]

She's addressing the extreme. I have witnessed such replacement type of leadership. Final authority is not the problem...it's singular authority.

 

Geo

 

I understand this (bolded part.)

As I stated in my previous post, I wish she would have made that clear and not painted all Christian families who recognize the father as the final authority to be part of that extreme movement. (Because, by her given definition, we-my family-do follow the patriarchal model, and we're not extreme.)

 

Make sense? I better go to bed :tongue_smilie:

[happi duck]

Great article!

Am I the only one who is freaked out by the idea of blindfolded daughters shaving their dads? :eek: I knew about purity balls, but I did not know about these other ceremonies.

:iagree::iagree:

Yes, great article! The daddy/daughter stuff creeps. me. out! ICK!

[Peela]

This may be totally irrelevant to this thread, but also perhaps not. I am reading a book called The Red Tent at the moment- halfway through- which is set in Old Testament times and is from the perspective of the women at the time. I am loving it. Of course it is one author's perspective, but it is definitely showing a fairly patriarchal society where women have their own world and there is a lot of beauty and depth to that world that we seem to have lost nowadays (the Red Tent is where the women go to menstruate and rest for 3 days each month, and where stories are told and passed down). Its a lovely book for women, for anyone interested (I am not Christian but it is not really a Christian book- more historical fiction set in Biblical times with Biblical characters).

[Onceuponatime]

This may be totally irrelevant to this thread, but also perhaps not. I am reading a book called The Red Tent at the moment- halfway through- which is set in Old Testament times and is from the perspective of the women at the time. I am loving it. Of course it is one author's perspective, but it is definitely showing a fairly patriarchal society where women have their own world and there is a lot of beauty and depth to that world that we seem to have lost nowadays (the Red Tent is where the women go to menstruate and rest for 3 days each month, and where stories are told and passed down). Its a lovely book for women, for anyone interested (I am not Christian but it is not really a Christian book- more historical fiction set in Biblical times with Biblical characters).

 

Having known a couple families like this, in my opinion:

 

In the extreme, American, Christian, patriarical family there is no red tent.

There is no traditional rest and bonding time with other women. There is often tiredness, depression, guilt, and doubting God, when life doesn't work out the way it was promised by people who thought they had the answers.

 

I thank God that my husband was never interested in drinking that koolaid, because I was sure tempted. It looked so good at first. And yes, my friends both read Mary Pride's book The Way Home. One even lent it to me. I'm not blaming Mary Pride, but wether she intended to be or not, her words became part of that culture.

 

This is no judgement on anyone here, just what I have observed.

 

Now off to read the article.