What do you think of not using any curriculum at all?

[Kathleen in VA]

Hey I wanted to post one more time to this thread to tell you about a book called:

 

"the unschooling handbook, How to Use the whole World As Your Child's Classroom" by Mary Griffith.

 

It's got chapters on:

 

What is Unschooling and How Can It Possibly Work

Resources: Finding What You Need

TV or not TV (and Other Questions of Technology)

How Can You Tell They're Learning?

Reading and Writing

Math and Problem Solving

Science

History

The Arts

Changes As Kids Grow Older

Practical Considerations

Coping With Doubts and Challenges

 

I think you'll find it full of good information! Since "Math" is one of the topics of concern, here are a couple of quotations from the math chapter of the book:

 

"The more determinedly "un" unschooling families favor an approach to math that emphasizes conceptual understanding over simple rote memorization and manipulation of formulas. We make that choice on the assumption that our children will learn basic math facts and computation skills through their everyday activities. This often means that they learn those basic arithmetic operations at later ages than traditionally occurs in schools, but it also means that when they do, they learn more quickly and easily. Because they not only see the real-world applications, but participate in them directly, math skills are not abstract and arbitrary lessons but real, working tools."

 

"Based on our math experience in school, most of us tend to think of learning mathematics as a rigidly sequential, progressive process. We assume that we cannot learn any "higher" mathematics- whatever that may be- until we have mastered all of the "basics." Most of us get so bogged down in those basics somewhere in junior high or high school that we never get beyond the purely computational. But mathematics is so much more: pattern recognition, sorting, measurement, logic, problem-solving, probability, statistics, topology, and much more. If we let ourselves begin to look at it all, it's hard to avoid seeing math everywhere. And almost anything we do involves math in one way or another."

 

"The big advantage to such a laid-back approach to math is that you can back off on pushing those basic skills and let your kids get comfortable and familiar with all the quietly math-related material all around them. Especially with kids who've had bad experiences with math in school, it usually pays to let them come to math on their own instead of dragging them, kicking and screaming all the way."

 

It talks about how games of all kinds are a great way for kids to become comfortable with numbers, it talks about various manipulatives, and includes a bunch of excerpts of unschooling parents talking about their own personal experiences.

 

And each chapter provides a list of more resources.

 

I'd definitely recommend it to you, to help get some perspective on this year of more of an "unschool" education. While I never went the whole unschool route as of yet myself, I did gain valuable perspective and insight and a more relaxed approach to homeschooling in general by reading books like these, and carefully chose the curriculum I DID select to be one that is as hands-on and creative as possible rather than very dry and textbookish.

 

Anyway! I'd LOVE to hear about how your year goes! You should blog about it!! :D

 

Woohoo!! My library has it!!! Thanks for this, Nance. I think blogging about it will help me stay focused so that's a great idea.

 

I'm still not sure exactly how I'm going to go about this. Ds14 said this morning that he wants to just read books about history. He said he doesn't mind if I pick them out - he just wants to read. He also wants to keep a World Geography notebook. He really doesn't want to do any science or math.:tongue_smilie: Hopefully, that book will give me some ideas of how to incorporate both of those less painfully. I don't think he'll mind playing games so maybe I should start there. I'm off to scour the bookshelves and get organized.

[NanceXToo]

A school year is a pretty long time, anyway. He might say now he only wants to do W and X, but that doesn't meant that a few months from now something he reads or watches or plays or comes across won't get him interested in Y and Z, too. It will be fun and interesting seeing how things develop, I'm sure!

[regentrude]

Plus, what the heck does anyone do with an undergrad degree in science?

 

Get a job with a company in research and development- or go on to graduate school.

Did you really mean this as a serious question?

[regentrude]

?So what? that one doesn't know everything the day they become a college freshman. *So what *? If one is eager and interested, but needs a couple of extra classes to explore, take them.

Those who know-- and they would have skipped the simple classes because of their AP classes or SAT scores- can take the higher level classes. Those who need more can get more.

 

It's not quite this simple because many universities require four years of mathematics (algebra and higher) for admission. So with just algebra and geometry you would not even have the option to go to a good four year school and take those simpler classes. THAT is what I mean by limit: if my kids wants to go to a selective school, I do not want my curriculum decisions to stand in the way of that chance.

Yes I know there is always community college. And yes, I know you can take whatever time you want - but I, personally, am rather happy that I completed my education* before I had children (this being something a woman can not put off forever).

 

edit:* I know education is never finished. I was referring to the formal part of education that I am required to have for the job I do (which took ten years after high school).

Edited August 19, 2010 by regentrude

[emubird]

We've pretty much done what the original poster suggested, except that we've always had a math book. Not a curriculum, just a book we worked through. A lot of times it was the same book the local school district was supposedly using (although we actually worked through it -- the schools usually only had one copy per classroom so it was never feasible for kids at school the actually use the book).

 

I was always working toward the goal of having my kids be able to read, write, and be on track to get through higher math by the time they finished high school. Other than that, I didn't care too much what they decided to learn before high school.

 

In the high school years, we've worked toward fulfilling college admissions requirements, but we still never got a real curriculum. We've just gathered textbooks for science. History and literature have been pretty much on the fly with whatever books looked interesting. My kids would never have stood for a curriculum. There's a lot of dumb stuff in purchased curricula, just like there is in school. Anyway, we've never had the money.

[Ginevra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LibraryLover

?So what? that one doesn't know everything the day they become a college freshman. *So what *? If one is eager and interested, but needs a couple of extra classes to explore, take them.

Those who know-- and they would have skipped the simple classes because of their AP classes or SAT scores- can take the higher level classes. Those who need more can get more.

It's not quite this simple because many universities require four years of mathematics (algebra and higher) for admission. So with just algebra and geometry you would not even have the option to go to a good four year school and take those simpler classes. THAT is what I mean by limit: if my kids wants to go to a selective school, I do not want my curriculum decisions to stand in the way of that chance.

Yes I know there is always community college. And yes, I know you can take whatever time you want - but I, personally, am rather happy that I completed my education* before I had children (this being something a woman can not put off forever).

:iagree: I completely agree with the bolded response!!! I am going to college this fall, for the first time, at 39. My only choice is community college, and a poor approach to math in high school is the reason. I deeply wish my parents had taken a vested interest in how I was doing at math, rather than shrug their shoulders, claim they weren't good at math either and figure there's always community college. :glare: I know my parents did what they thought was right, but I seriously wish they would have cared/pushed/instructed/helped me to learn the necessary math then so that I would not have this to conquer now. I'm proud that I'm going to CC and working off the math that I didn't learn in the proper time, but I am regretful that I wasn't able/encouraged to go to college before I had kids. It is much harder in every respect to do this while I'm raising and homeschooling three kids, one of whom may even wind up in college while I'm still working through mine. Really shouldn't ignore a decent math sequence in high school. Really shouldn't.

[justasque]

I'm all for reading trade books for literature and history, and taking an interest-led path with it, especially for kids who are self-directed readers. For youngers, this and some math games and some field trips could be a whole year's education. But your kids are not "youngers". The 12 year old could swing it, somewhat, but the 14 year old is really at the age when choices made now have a big impact on one's future options. So I'd include a wee bit of writing, and some math (challenging even if informal/relaxed), at minimum.

 

I think it's useful, especially in the middle school and high school years, to make use of opportunities to give presentations and to write. These are skills that are used in almost every profession, and in college. In the elementary years, I'm OK with using "reading good literature" to get a feel for the language and how to use it, and not doing much *actual writing*, as my "writing program", but for older kids I really think they have to actually *do* some of it. It doesn't have to mean five paragraph compare/contrast essays - there are lots of other writing formats. But it does mean organizing one's thoughts, keeping one's audience in mind, ideally some form of citations of facts, and the basics of using good spelling and grammar. This could mean anything from journaling to blogging to internet chats to making one's own newspaper to writing letters to the editor or letters of complaint/praise, to writing grant requests for a non-profit, and so on. But to be an educated person, and to be a parent with the skills to advocate for one's child when needed, I feel one must be able to write reasonably well if/when the situation requires it. So I'm fine with no formal program for writing, but I'd want *some* writing to have taken place during the year for kids at that age, even if only a few pieces for "portfolio fodder" (if your state requires such things). Could you wait until college to learn this? Yes, but college is an awfully expensive place to learn high school level skills. If your kids are already natural writers, then this is less of an issue for me.

 

For the math, again, I'd like to see math of some kind done regularly. Math is a lot like playing a musical instrument or learning ballet. It involves skills that need to be practiced. I don't believe that everyone needs the full Algebra I - Geometry - Algebra II - Calc/Trig sequence. But it really bothers me when I see sloppy math out in the world. Examples: Business people (or household managers) who work very hard but don't realize that, although lots of money is coming in, lots is also going out leaving very little profit (for business) or margin (for households). (Ditto for those running non-profits or church committees.) News people who think that if a thousand people go to an event on Monday, and a thousand go on Tuesday, and a thousand go on Wednesday, then three thousand people have gone to the event. (Check out "A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper for more of this kind of thing.) People who are swayed by misleading statistics. And so on. So much of the lives of parents and business people involves money, understanding statistics (chances of harm from vax vs. chances of harm from the disease, for example (not advocating either way, just saying that one needs to understand a bit of stats to understand the research as part of one's decision making process)), and so on. And each profession has its own specialized math needs - population information for naturalists (statistics! ratios!), geometry for sewing and carpentry, and so on. Plus as others have mentioned, looking towards college (assuming that's a path you're on), you really need to have the basics of math or your choices will be limited as to major/profession and school. I'm thinking here mainly of your 14 year old.

 

I've heard the arguments that kids who need math will learn it when the need arises (almost always from people who have only young children), but I don't think it's realistic for older kids to learn, for example, a year of algebra in much less than a year, and who wants to wait a year (or more) to be able to continue with one's plans? In other words, one may not always have the *time* to learn it when it's needed. And while that's true of things like playing the piano or learning ballet too, and if your kid isn't taking piano and ballet lessons you're limiting their piano-playing and ballet-dancing choices somewhat, math is such a basic for so many paths that I'd be reluctant to drop it entirely for a 14 year old.

 

So I'm OK with no formal textbook (sort of), and I'm in favor of some "time off" now and again (such as summer vaca), but if your plan is to do casual math, then, assuming no disabilities, stuff like doubling a recipe once a week and calling it "fractions" just isn't going to cut it - it's going to take more of an effort on your part. (Which is not a bad thing, just be realistic about the work involved on your part.)

 

Another option to consider is to do a year of reading things like "How to Lie with Statistics", and "A Mathematician Reads the Newspaper", and some math history, and doing a bit of consumer math, and so on. It would be a break from your regular work but still be working on math-mindedness. Or consider a math class in the hsing community - having math peers does seem to reduce the agony for some, especially at this level, and takes mom off the hook.

 

So my two cents (which is just one opinion among many - you know your kids best!) is to go ahead with the text-free, interest-led reading - I do think this is the best way to learn things like history and literature and vocab and lots of other things - but to make sure some writing is happening and to keep math in the picture in some way to protect options later down the line.

 

Take what you like and leave the rest.

 

--mom of ds20, ds17, dd12

[LibraryLover]

Get a job with a company in research and development- or go on to graduate school.

Did you really mean this as a serious question?

 

 

Not a serious question, a joke.

 

Go on to graduate school is pretty much the answer.

If someone wants to be a scientist, they will do what they need to do, even if they are needing to take some fill-in classes at first. If a person doesn't want to do the work necessary, they've got no business being in science. In fact, if one doesn't want to do the work required in a particular field, they've got no business being in that particular field, period.

Edited September 15, 2014 by LibraryLover

[justamouse]

Ds14 said this morning that he wants to just read books about history. He said he doesn't mind if I pick them out - he just wants to read. He also wants to keep a World Geography notebook. He really doesn't want to do any science or math.:tongue_smilie:

 

That sounds awesome-especially that he's willing to let you pick but I bet he's going to be off on tangents which is cool, too.

 

:iagree: I completely agree with the bolded response!!! I am going to college this fall, for the first time, at 39. My only choice is community college, and a poor approach to math in high school is the reason. I deeply wish my parents had taken a vested interest in how I was doing at math, rather than shrug their shoulders, claim they weren't good at math either and figure there's always community college. :glare: I know my parents did what they thought was right, but I seriously wish they would have cared/pushed/instructed/helped me to learn the necessary math then so that I would not have this to conquer now. I'm proud that I'm going to CC and working off the math that I didn't learn in the proper time, but I am regretful that I wasn't able/encouraged to go to college before I had kids. It is much harder in every respect to do this while I'm raising and homeschooling three kids, one of whom may even wind up in college while I'm still working through mine. Really shouldn't ignore a decent math sequence in high school. Really shouldn't.

 

You know, I went to PS and struggled up until I graduated with math. It was a nightmare, one that I'm still scarred from and working through now that I am able to peruse many different ways of learning math. I have spent my whole life knowing that I cannot DO math. Because I wasn't able to do the math, Chemistry was painful, I took it for two years and failed both-that was with staying extra after school with the most wonderful teacher there was.

 

Perhaps if there were more choices back then-or even the belief that there is more than one way to teach algebra (the fights I've had with the high schools for my oldest son, I cannot begin to tell you. "What do you MEAN there is more than one way to teach Algebra?!" I kid you not, a teacher yelled that to me.)

 

I wasn't encouraged to go to school, either, and in turn I constantly tell my children that our expectations of them is some sort of profession, whether they get a college education or go to a trade school.

 

I'm a published author. I still hate math. I would have rather not been forced all those years and waited until I was able to find some way that I understood, than being made to believe I was stupid and a failure. College is not the ribbon at the end of the race. It's a tool in the arsenal for life. There are ways around it, and for some people, they need to explore those ways. Better to have an intact spirit that is willing to learn, than an ingrained belief that something is impossible for them.

Edited August 19, 2010 by justamouse

[LibraryLover]

That's right. If an older teen knows they want to travel this path, they will do what they need to do to get there, and a thoughtful hsing parent will be there to help.

 

The OP's kids have time to take a year to read.

 

A thoughtful hsing teen who knows they need to have formal credits for college will work towards that goal. If they can't do it without constant nagging from mom, they may not be ready or mature enough to attend this sort of college. No college needs yet another immature 18 yr old.

 

 

 

It's not quite this simple because many universities require four years of mathematics (algebra and higher) for admission. So with just algebra and geometry you would not even have the option to go to a good four year school and take those simpler classes. THAT is what I mean by limit: if my kids wants to go to a selective school, I do not want my curriculum decisions to stand in the way of that chance.

Yes I know there is always community college. And yes, I know you can take whatever time you want - but I, personally, am rather happy that I completed my education* before I had children (this being something a woman can not put off forever).

 

edit:* I know education is never finished. I was referring to the formal part of education that I am required to have for the job I do (which took ten years after high school).

Edited August 19, 2010 by LibraryLover

[MariannNOVA]

I love it - I am SO tempted.

 

Here is the title of a Math book that should be at the library. A person in the co-op that we are joining told me the title of this just yesterday:

 

'Mathematicians are People, Too" Author is Luetta Reimer.

 

Sounds like it will fit very well with what you have mentioned.:)

Edited August 19, 2010 by MariannNOVA

[Guest]

Another great book: The Numbers Game.

 

I have been hearing about The Calculus Diaries, which apparently discusses situations in which calculus can be used for understanding, building, doing, etc. but is not a math book -- that is, it does not rely on a whole bunch of equations and working out of problems. It is more a discussion of the ways and places that higher math is useful in the real world. My dd and I are going to go hear the author speak in September... maybe worth a look.

[LibraryLover]

:iagree: (Sorry!) Very exciting. And maybe you can go on field trips and watch cool movies and documentaries without guilt! :) Your kids are perfect ages for this...although I can't think of an imperfect age for this. :)

 

I love it - I am SO tempted.

 

Here is the title of a Math book that should be at the library. A person in the co-op that we are joining told me the title of this just yesterday:

 

'Mathematicians are People, Too" Author is Luetta Reimer.

 

Sounds like it will fit very well with what you have mentioned.:)

[LibraryLover]

Thank you for sharing this! I think the bolded is especially profoud. There are so many creative people who may be 'non -traditional' learners who do grow up thinking there is something wrong with them; that they are stupid etc. We limit our children's lives when we see and value only one path...(and in a very narrow time period).

 

I would also add to the mulling pot that pushing a teen to do ABCDEFG when they can't see the forest for the trees, or have a passion for something other than a cookie-cutter young adulthood, could backfire. I give you college freshmen who drink their way through classes and/or flunk $ classes, or are in general miserable and confused.

 

 

I say if often, but the college experience would be far more valuable if more young students had an inkling as to why they were there. In the end, maturity and self-motivation, along with true interests, is worth more than a boat- load of forced AP classes.

 

Our family is in the thick of college prep, and college right now, as we have a rising Sr and a rising Jr. We have one dc graduating college this year as well. I have no idea how would get an unmotivated or unready young person through the process.

 

 

Perhaps if there were more choices back then-or even the belief that there is more than one way to teach algebra (the fights I've had with the high schools for my oldest son, I cannot begin to tell you. "What do you MEAN there is more than one way to teach Algebra?!" I kid you not, a teacher yelled that to me.)

 

I wasn't encouraged to go to school, either, and in turn I constantly tell my children that our expectations of them is some sort of profession, whether they get a college education or go to a trade school.

 

I'm a published author. I still hate math. I would have rather not been forced all those years and waited until I was able to find some way that I understood, than being made to believe I was stupid and a failure. College is not the ribbon at the end of the race. It's a tool in the arsenal for life. There are ways around it, and for some people, they need to explore those ways. Better to have an intact spirit that is willing to learn, than an ingrained belief that something is impossible for them.

Edited August 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Kathleen in VA]

Pauline,

 

Your input is very helpful - thanks. I planned already to have Ds14 write some sort of response to each book he reads. I have the NARS handbook that gives suggestions for other types of responses as well. I also have the Secrets of Great Communicators curriculum which I don't think he'll mind working through since it is on video. He really does need to learn to communicate better. I also plan on having him work through the little book The Lively Art of Writing since it covers persuasive essays and that would address the skill of being an advocate for your child/family; writing a letter to the editor, etc. It is a very easy book to understand and use, but I'm thinking I'll wait a year or two before I begin that. Right now I want to concentrate on his oral communication and writing summaries. A friend loaned me the DVDs for IEW Structure and Style and I plan on just having him watch them with me. Not sure what to expect there, but they may help him.

 

When he was a newborn he had pyloric stenosis which means that for the first two weeks of his life he got very little nourishment. He had surgery at two weeks old and it went well but it took a longer time than expected to come out of the anasthesia. I've always wondered if that episode in his infanthood affected his brain - he is smart in lots of ways but he does struggle with communicating effectively. He didn't really start talking until he was four years old. He tends to start sentences and repeat whole phrases a few times before he actually gets his thought out. Many times he speaks in sentence fragments and we have to draw the rest of it out of him. I wish I could think of an example but nothing comes to mind right away. You really wouldn't think there was anything wrong with him if you knew him - he would just seem slightly insecure and quiet.

 

We recently finished up reading I, Juan de Pareja and he understood it very well. I pulled words from each chapter I thought he'd need to learn and he looked them up in his electronic dictionary. He LOVES that dictionary, lol, so that's certainly helpful. I also wrote comprehension questions - mainly higher level thinking "Why?" type questions and he was able to answer them. It's just that he seems to take a long time to think things through and get them out.

 

A few years ago I bought the One Year Adventure Novel curriculum because dd17 is really into writing. After Ds14 saw the first few lessons he was hooked and wanted me to buy him a workbook as well. I did, but he was 11 or 12 at the time and after a few more lessons he got overwhelmed and gave up. It is somewhat challenging. He will probably try that again but not until he's a few years older.

 

I also have the John Tiner book Exploring the World of Mathematics which isn't exactly a math textbook - more of a history of math with a lot of applied math sprinkled in. I also have the Strayer-Upton books and am toying with the idea of having him do the word problems from those. They get increasingly challenging as you go through the series and I think he wouldn't mind so much doing word problems as opposed to pages filled with regular math problems. They seem more like puzzles which he enjoys solving - it's just the rows and rows of problems that intimidate him.

 

I also have the ebook from Simply Charlotte Mason that lets you set up your own store and use math to run it (he chose the sports store). I bought it a couple of years ago and realized that it was beyond his scope at that point. He may want to give that another go. I do plan to switch back to a more traditional approach after this year is up but he may not get any further than Consumer and Business math. His favorite uncle is an accountant and that may be something he would be interested in pursuing since he adores his uncle. (Not so much as a career but as a math course just so he has something he can talk about with his uncle).

 

Anyway, I'm not completely averse to using "curriculum" - especially those things I already own. I really just don't want to spend any more more money on it since I do own so much already. The reading part will mainly be history and science. He would rather read biographies of scientists than work through a science textbook. I think I can handle that at least for one year, lol. We are all history buffs here so our house is chock full of Landmarks, Cornerstones of Freedom books, Sonlight readers, Veritas Press books - just tons and tons of it. Ds14 is doing the 1850-Present part of the cycle this year and I just can't bring myself to buying a textbook since we already have so much available on our shelves. As far as math goes - I just figured backing off for a year might clear his head and give his brain a chance to develop so he could come back to it refreshed and ready to go.

 

I'm really going to take it one day at time - at least to begin with. I just want this year to be more relaxed and enjoyable. I want to focus more on just being a family together and enjoying whatever we choose to explore academically. If I sense any of the more structured things I have mentioned are not fitting in with that goal, then I am going to set them aside for a little while and focus on those things that are bringing joy.

[LibraryLover]

I'm really going to take it one day at time - at least to begin with. I just want this year to be more relaxed and enjoyable. I want to focus more on just being a family together and enjoying whatever we choose to explore academically. If I sense any of the more structured things I have mentioned are not fitting in with that goal, then I am going to set them aside for a little while and focus on those things that are bringing joy.

 

 

Kathleen, I think this is beautiful. I can't imagine there will be any regrets.

[Kathleen in VA]

I love it - I am SO tempted.

 

Here is the title of a Math book that should be at the library. A person in the co-op that we are joining told me the title of this just yesterday:

 

'Mathematicians are People, Too" Author is Luetta Reimer.

 

Sounds like it will fit very well with what you have mentioned.:)

 

This was recommended on a page that mcconnellboys posted and unfortunately my library does NOT have it. I will keep my eyes open wide at my library's book sales.

 

Another great book: The Numbers Game.

 

I have been hearing about The Calculus Diaries, which apparently discusses situations in which calculus can be used for understanding, building, doing, etc. but is not a math book -- that is, it does not rely on a whole bunch of equations and working out of problems. It is more a discussion of the ways and places that higher math is useful in the real world. My dd and I are going to go hear the author speak in September... maybe worth a look.

 

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll check it out.

[MariannNOVA]

I love it - I am SO tempted.

 

Here is the title of a Math book that should be at the library. A person in the co-op that we are joining told me the title of this just yesterday:

 

'Mathematicians are People, Too" Author is Luetta Reimer.

 

Sounds like it will fit very well with what you have mentioned.:)

 

Kathleen: I PMd you. Mariann:)

[sheryl]

Yea Kathleen, I think it sounds great. There is MUCH to be said for 'real life applications". You "go for it". You can also download some free activity sheets to further enhance/test or whatnot what they've learned and not spend any more on books. Or, go to the library too. There just aren't enough hours in a day to do everything...:D Sheryl <><

 

 

I'm thinking of having my two youngest just read, read, read (the others have graduated). I've got at least a thousand books in this house on nearly every subject - lots of history, historical fiction, biography, etc. - so I feel silly spending any more money just so I can have something that's laid out all neat and tidy (not to mention a serious lack of funds :D.) The only evaluation will be having them write a bit about what they are reading.

 

I'm even going to do this with math - just read about math and do some real-life application stuff like cooking and building something. They both hate math and find it a huge struggle so I'm hoping that taking a year to just talk about math, the history of math and using math in real life will give them some time away and perhaps motivate them. Am I nuts???? (OK, don't answer that - just tell me if it's doable, lol).

[Mommyfaithe]

I'm thinking of having my two youngest just read, read, read (the others have graduated). I've got at least a thousand books in this house on nearly every subject - lots of history, historical fiction, biography, etc. - so I feel silly spending any more money just so I can have something that's laid out all neat and tidy (not to mention a serious lack of funds :D.) The only evaluation will be having them write a bit about what they are reading.

 

I'm even going to do this with math - just read about math and do some real-life application stuff like cooking and building something. They both hate math and find it a huge struggle so I'm hoping that taking a year to just talk about math, the history of math and using math in real life will give them some time away and perhaps motivate them. Am I nuts???? (OK, don't answer that - just tell me if it's doable, lol).

 

Haven't read the other responses...but I think it is totally do-able...as long as you don't freak out mid year and feel like a failure for not using a curriculim...kwim??

 

I have done this in the past...other than math, which I could not allow myself to let go of...everything else was read...talk...read...talk...read...write...read...read...read....

Then the kids would come up with their own projects and even cooking ideas. We had wonderful years like this...especially once my kids were past the learn to read stage and into the "I want to read it MYSELF" stage.

 

I can't wait until my little ones are at that point....then, I will set them loose with our extensive library...

 

~~Faithe

[Ginevra]

You know, I went to PS and struggled up until I graduated with math. It was a nightmare, one that I'm still scarred from and working through now that I am able to peruse many different ways of learning math. I have spent my whole life knowing that I cannot DO math. Because I wasn't able to do the math, Chemistry was painful, I took it for two years and failed both-that was with staying extra after school with the most wonderful teacher there was.

 

Perhaps if there were more choices back then-or even the belief that there is more than one way to teach algebra (the fights I've had with the high schools for my oldest son, I cannot begin to tell you. "What do you MEAN there is more than one way to teach Algebra?!" I kid you not, a teacher yelled that to me.)

 

I wasn't encouraged to go to school, either, and in turn I constantly tell my children that our expectations of them is some sort of profession, whether they get a college education or go to a trade school.

 

I'm a published author. I still hate math. I would have rather not been forced all those years and waited until I was able to find some way that I understood, than being made to believe I was stupid and a failure. College is not the ribbon at the end of the race. It's a tool in the arsenal for life. There are ways around it, and for some people, they need to explore those ways. Better to have an intact spirit that is willing to learn, than an ingrained belief that something is impossible for them.

 

It's interesting how different perspectives can arise out of similar circumstances.

 

In my case, I think I could have learned math passably. I really just had no clue that certain classes were necessary if you wanted better options. I was a "dreamy" kid. (Okay, a space cadet.) My parents had no goals for me of college or trade school or anything beyond motherhood. I really think they were not in favor of women working in any capacity, so they just didn't provide any guidance. Between their lack of input and my own lack of direction, I just muddled through in math until I didn't have to get any more credits. Same with Science. I switched out of Chemistry in the first week of 10th grade; took Physical Science instead (apparently, the school allowed that), because I was so incapable of the math for Chemistry.

 

And you have achieved the Holy Grail - published authorship. :drool5: That is why I'm going to college now - because I feel like a second-class citizen if I'm just "That Good Writer Who Never Got a Degree." Even if I had a manuscript accepted tomorrow, I would still want to get the degree.

 

ETA: I also felt like I was stupid (at math) and a failure. I don't think if I had been assisted with it, I would feel any more or less like a failure. I wish my parents had tried. I still was wracked with feelings of inadequacy going in to take my placement test. I just had to tell myself, "It is what it is."

Edited August 19, 2010 by Ginevra

[TechWife]

It sounds lovely for English and history and to a certain degree even for science - but I personally do not think that solid math skills can be acquired like this.

 

I would second this if they were elementary school age - but I assume you are talking about the 11 and 14 year old? I'd be worried about teaching algebra by cooking.

 

You can teach them algebra by getting them a robot to program or by getting them a book on cryptography. There are many ways to learn math other than a traditional text book approach.

 

As an aside, you can learn the following things through robotics: algebra, geometry, physics, composition, team work and public speaking.

[TechWife]

Consider making this book available to them:

Cryptoclub: Using Mathematics to Make and Break Secret Codes

[HappyGrace]

My fav part of the article is this:

 

"I realized that home-schooling is all about parents interacting with their children - frequently! I learned that reading to my kids along with their requests for my undivided time and consideration took priority over doing the laundry, paying the bills, or answering the telephone"

 

I think too many times we think we can do many other things at the same time we make our primary responsibility the growth/education of our children.

 

Here I go now too! :iagree:

[justamouse]

And you have achieved the Holy Grail - published authorship. :drool5: That is why I'm going to college now - because I feel like a second-class citizen if I'm just "That Good Writer Who Never Got a Degree." Even if I had a manuscript accepted tomorrow, I would still want to get the degree.

 

ETA: I also felt like I was stupid (at math) and a failure. I don't think if I had been assisted with it, I would feel any more or less like a failure. I wish my parents had tried. I still was wracked with feelings of inadequacy going in to take my placement test. I just had to tell myself, "It is what it is."

 

[hijack]Published authorship is not what it's all cracked up to be, And, sometimes [most times], school kills it even more. If I were you, I'd go for a secondary interest as your major, say, history for example, and write because you love it. All genres have different parameters, and lit fict is seething with backbiting and one upmanship. NOT a nurturing environment AT ALL. Just write. It will develop your voice, which is the most important thing of all.

 

I have my times of feeling inadequate. I have them a lot. But I have a bank account, a house and a business that make up for degrees I don't have. And, Dh and I worked for those just as hard. I've made a deal with myself, that if I go to school, I'm doing it because I love learning (and I do, I'll be a perpetual student), not because I feel ashamed for lack of a piece of paper. [/hijack]

[Ginevra]

justamouse, I hear ya. I do love learning, and that is what made me decide to go for the degree, after years and years of struggling over the "Why do I want to do this?" question. In the end, though, I don't think wanting a degree for the regard it brings is an inadequate reason, either. It wouldn't be good enough if it were my only reason, but it's not a bad reason to throw into the pot.

 

I also think you have a good point about the secondary interest as the major. But I was thinking either English major with History minor or English with Communications. Either of those could bring more versatility to the degree and also fulfill something I just plain enjoy! Anyway, I'm on the pecking-away-slowly plan for college, so there is lots of time to hone my direction.

 

I will return you to your regularly scheduled post now.

[mama2cntrykids]

I will have to go back and read the other poster's comments.

 

As for me...GO FOR IT!! It sounds great! It's a way that *I* wish that I was educated in. It's the way that I'm leaning more and more towards with my own children. It's freeing, not tied down, real-honest-to-goodness-LIFE.

 

I'm really at this point with my youngest ds7. He is SO unlike any child that I have met. There is no way I'm going to fit that boy into a pre-conceived mold. I'm done trying. He is MUCH better off for it, trust me. The boy floors me at times with what he knows/can do. Amazing!

 

I am free to run...I am free to dance...I am free...(sorry lyrics to a Christian song, but appropriate)!

[Geo]

Definitely doable. And it sounds like so much fun!

 

ETA: Check this out!

 

http://www.homefires.com/articles/reading_the_best_and_easiest.asp

 

 

We did this during 2008/2009. It really drew us together and was quite freeing. My kids were 6 and 9yo.

Geo

Edited August 20, 2010 by Geo

[Scuff]

I'm half doing this with my DS next year. We've been pushing along academically for so long, it seems like a year to just let it sink in and apply will do well. We'll still do math and some structured science (he loves science) and a few things all together. But everythibg else is just going to be reading, and writing or telling about what he read.

[Kathleen in VA]

Consider making this book available to them:

Cryptoclub: Using Mathematics to Make and Break Secret Codes

 

This really looks amazing. The nifty thing is it combines math with war history and it's just the right time period he'll be studying this year - 1850-present.

[Ellie]

I think it would be a lot of work to do well. Unschooling requires much more "in the moment" attention and thought than homeschooling that is planned out. Honestly, you seem like a more structured person than that to me from your posts (in general) . Maybe it would be a good break for a few months, though.

I never found that to be true. :-)

 

Unschooling is just living life. It isn't hanging around waiting for your dc to be interested in something and then jumping in with both feet. :-)

[Corraleno]

It's not quite this simple because many universities require four years of mathematics (algebra and higher) for admission. So with just algebra and geometry you would not even have the option to go to a good four year school and take those simpler classes. THAT is what I mean by limit: if my kids wants to go to a selective school, I do not want my curriculum decisions to stand in the way of that chance.

Not all "good four year schools" require 4 years of math, and not everyone wants to go to Harvard. If that's a possibility for your kids, by all means make sure they can meet those criteria. I had 2 yrs of math in HS (because I hated math, even though I was good at it) and yet I ended up with a full-ride National Merit Scholarship to an excellent LAC, followed by grad school in a top-10 university for my major. I was in no way limited by my HS math choices. ;)

 

Yes I know there is always community college. And yes, I know you can take whatever time you want - but I, personally, am rather happy that I completed my education* before I had children (this being something a woman can not put off forever).

LOL, I don't think a year at CC, catching up on a few courses between HS and a 4 yr college, would seriously impact a woman's ability to bear children.

 

Jackie

[Scuff]

this is along the lines of what I was thinking for DS with English and language arts, ect. A year to let it all sink in and marinate. Not to abandon formal education forever. Just to take some time to apply before pressing on again. I know I sometimes need that. You know your son. And it sounds like you've got a good plan going.

 

I have to admit - this is the subject I am most concerned about, too. Ds14 isn't ready for algebra - take my word for it. I'm kind of thinking back to a book I read by Grace Llewellyn called The Teenage Liberation Handbook. She talks a lot about kids who are coming out of ps needing time to "decompress." Even though mine haven't been in school, I think they both need some decompression time in the area of math. Ds14 will start TT Pre-Algebra next year (9th grade) and take Alg. 1 in 10th, Geometry in 11th and probably stop there. He loves history and geography so I don't feel like he's going to need math any higher than that. If he ends up needing more to follow his own goals, he can easily go to community college.

 

I'm also thinking if we do lots of hands-on type projects where he can apply the math he already knows, a light might just appear over his head and he will have an "aha" moment and say something glorious like, "Wow, mom, all that math I hated really is cool!!" Ok, not likely, but I can hope, right?

[LibraryLover]

Ah yup. Yup. All of it. :001_smile:

 

Not all "good four year schools" require 4 years of math, and not everyone wants to go to Harvard. If that's a possibility for your kids, by all means make sure they can meet those criteria. I had 2 yrs of math in HS (because I hated math, even though I was good at it) and yet I ended up with a full-ride National Merit Scholarship to an excellent LAC, followed by grad school in a top-10 university for my major. I was in no way limited by my HS math choices. ;)

 

 

LOL, I don't think a year at CC, catching up on a few courses between HS and a 4 yr college, would seriously impact a woman's ability to bear children.

 

Jackie

[MissKNG]

The thought of not using curriculum makes me feel:

 

:willy_nilly: and :scared: and:svengo:!!

 

Right now, I need the hand holding and I don't think I would be able to handle the lack of direction, flow and progress. Curriculum gives me comfort!

 

On that note, I was looking for a "puking" smilie but couldn't find one. I would add that to my list too.

[Guest]

 

Right now, I need the hand holding and I don't think I would be able to handle the lack of direction, flow and progress. Curriculum gives me comfort!

 

 

While I can certainly understand the need for hand-holding, I don't think that moving away from a pre-made, conventional curriculum necessarily means there is no direction, flow, or progress! I think that is blurring the lines between approaching an education differently, without a packaged plan, and unschooling. These are not the same thing.

 

Like Jackie, I also had only two years of high school math (I was thoroughly turned off by an incompetent geometry teacher counting the minutes until his retirement party). This did not affect my ability to get into the University of California. In fact I was able to go straight into college-level calculus, where a terrific professor re-ignited my interest in math. There are any number of paths to educational ends.

[Corraleno]

The thought of not using curriculum makes me feel: :willy_nilly: and :scared: and:svengo:!!

Right now, I need the hand holding and I don't think I would be able to handle the lack of direction, flow and progress.

My "curriculum" for DS between the ages of 3 and 7 consisted of Cheerios (for counting), magnetic plastic letters/numbers on the fridge, and lots and lots of books, nature walks, and travel. He started private school halfway through 1st grade, and he was ahead of the other kids in math, waaaaay ahead in science, and right on target for reading, despite being dyslexic. After three years in school, with all that "curriculum," he tested a year below grade level in both math and English (he was still several grade levels above in science, because of his readings and activities outside of school). DD went to a private preschool/kinder from 2-6, and she was actually behind where DS was at the same age, despite his "curriculum-deprived" childhood, lol. Your kids are only 3 & 4 — as long as you're reading to them and they have lots of play time, it's all good!

 

While I can certainly understand the need for hand-holding, I don't think that moving away from a pre-made, conventional curriculum necessarily means there is no direction, flow, or progress! I think that is blurring the lines between approaching an education differently, without a packaged plan, and unschooling. These are not the same thing.

Exactly. I no longer use packaged curricula, except for math and MCT, and even those I don't "schedule" (we just do the next thing) but I have a clear idea of the direction we're heading, I see plenty of progress, and the flow of our days has actually improved due to the increased flexibility.

 

Jackie

[Lovedtodeath]

I just have to say that I think this depends on your personality and that of your kids. I am looking forward to a year of a lot of structure to get us making progress again. ;)

[Guest]

I just have to say that I think this depends on your personality and that of your kids. I am looking forward to a year of a lot of structure to get us making progress again. ;)

 

Absolutely, whether and to what extent you prefer or even need schedules (your own or someone else's), syllabi, and/or lists of chapters or pages to cover and at what rate is related to personalities. However, the degree to which families prefer structured learning is a separate issue from whether they use pre-packaged, ready-made, conventional (however you want to phrase it) curricula or depart from it. Changing how and even what you teach does not mean you throw structure to the winds. Nor does it mean you do not progress! Those two things are not tied exclusively to particular curricula.

[i.love.lucy]

I wasn't even hearing Kathleen saying she was going in a total unschooling direction anyways. It sounds to me like there is just SO MUCH other great stuff out there to learn from that you have to make time for it.

 

My dd and I trudge through about 45-60mins of math a day. And she's still behind and not in love with math, and still doesn't have her facts down. In that time we do the math curriculum pages, then we do timed drills, then we do some flash cards, and sometimes a computer or iTouch game for math facts. By the time I have done all that, there is no time (or no math energy) for fun games and books about math in the real world, or study of math in architecture or science or food or whatever. I can totally see ditching the curriculum part and keeping all the other stuff. Letting them do like a pp mentioned...*marinating* in the math for a while.

 

I don't think this is holding the bar too low, but rather allowing the bar in some subjects to be whatever it will be, but letting the bar go sky high in the subjects that it will. Allowing that to happen naturally as they age.

[Corraleno]

I just have to say that I think this depends on your personality and that of your kids. I am looking forward to a year of a lot of structure to get us making progress again. ;)

Oh, I totally agree with this! In fact, I think that's kind of a corrolary to what Karen and I were saying — not only can you have wonderful direction/progress/flow without prepackaged curricula and pre-defined schedules, if that's what works for your kids, it's also possible to use the most structured/scheduled/totally-laid-out curriculum and have no progress or flow, if that curriculum doesn't work for your kids.

 

I do think, though, that some people stick to packaged curricula and pre-made schedules out of fear, even if it's not working for their kids, because they think the alternative is chaos. And especially on a board like this, where the majority do seem to be using highly packaged/scheduled materials, it can be a scary thing to contemplate a year like the one Kathleen is talking about. So when folks like KarenAnne and Nan and Paula and (recently) I post that "the water's fine out here," it's not to denigrate anyone else's choices, just to illustrate that it is possible to provide a deep, challenging, rigorous education without pre-packaged/pre-scheduled curricula.

 

Jackie

Edited August 22, 2010 by Corraleno

[mycalling]

:lurk5:I've often thought of doing this, but need an extra kick in the butt.

[Dina in Oklahoma]

Hello Kathleen ~

 

I commend your bravery!!! My DD would be on cloud nine if we did this -- I have considered it as she loves to read and gets so much out of it. I would encourage you as others have however, to work on math from a different perspective.

 

I am including a link for Math on the Level (which I just purchased) as it may work within your proposed framework.

 

Best Wishes on whatever you decide,

 

Dina :001_smile:

 

P.S. You may want to checkout the Yahoo group for MOTH.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Dina in Oklahoma

[LittleIzumi]

I just have to say that I think this depends on your personality and that of your kids.

 

ABSOLUTELY. Both of my kids learn very differently. My oldest loves this sort of unstructured, drink--I mean, read--tons of nonfiction books, look at everything with a microscope when she gets the urge, and ask a zillion questions, with no worksheets or scripts involved. I am slowly getting her to tolerate small amounts of workbookish stuff, lol, but it's a long road. My youngest is a workbook addict and would much rather do those all day than play or learn other ways.

[Peela]

I would have rather not been forced all those years and waited until I was able to find some way that I understood, than being made to believe I was stupid and a failure. College is not the ribbon at the end of the race. It's a tool in the arsenal for life. There are ways around it, and for some people, they need to explore those ways. Better to have an intact spirit that is willing to learn, than an ingrained belief that something is impossible for them.

 

I love this, justamouse.

This thread is making me wonder if I can move more in this direction with my 14yo ds. I woudl keep math and some structure, but I have always felt I failed at helping him feel inspired and motivated. I think its worth the risk to try.

[woolybear]

I'm thinking of having my two youngest just read, read, read (the others have graduated). I've got at least a thousand books in this house on nearly every subject - lots of history, historical fiction, biography, etc. - so I feel silly spending any more money just so I can have something that's laid out all neat and tidy (not to mention a serious lack of funds :D.) The only evaluation will be having them write a bit about what they are reading.

 

I'm even going to do this with math - just read about math and do some real-life application stuff like cooking and building something. They both hate math and find it a huge struggle so I'm hoping that taking a year to just talk about math, the history of math and using math in real life will give them some time away and perhaps motivate them. Am I nuts???? (OK, don't answer that - just tell me if it's doable, lol).

 

I'm reviving this thread to see if Kathleen can give us an update.:) Did you continue the year this way? And how did it go? This and some other threads I've been reading are giving me some pause for thought as I do my planning for next year. For a couple of reasons, I was leaning towards becoming more structured and more workbooky. I am reconsidering some of this, though, and would love to hear how the year went.

[Barry Goldwater]

I'm thinking of having my two youngest just read, read, read (the others have graduated). I've got at least a thousand books in this house on nearly every subject - lots of history, historical fiction, biography, etc. - so I feel silly spending any more money just so I can have something that's laid out all neat and tidy (not to mention a serious lack of funds :D.) The only evaluation will be having them write a bit about what they are reading.

 

I'm even going to do this with math - just read about math and do some real-life application stuff like cooking and building something. They both hate math and find it a huge struggle so I'm hoping that taking a year to just talk about math, the history of math and using math in real life will give them some time away and perhaps motivate them. Am I nuts???? (OK, don't answer that - just tell me if it's doable, lol).

 

Well, it might be cheaper! :tongue_smilie:

 

I really love this idea...it's how people have learned for hundreds of years, perhaps thousands (those who could read, anyway:tongue_smilie:).

 

Go for it!

[5Wizards]

oops old thread

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm reviving this thread to see if Kathleen can give us an update.:) Did you continue the year this way? And how did it go? This and some other threads I've been reading are giving me some pause for thought as I do my planning for next year. For a couple of reasons, I was leaning towards becoming more structured and more workbooky. I am reconsidering some of this, though, and would love to hear how the year went.

 

:bigear:

 

I know it's an old thread. But, I can say that I am less likely to use a structured curriculum when I am in my comfort zone. Things like math? LOADS of curricula, manipulatives, CDs, DVDs, the works. Things like literature? Nada.

[FO4UR]

:bigear:

 

I know it's an old thread. But, I can say that I am less likely to use a structured curriculum when I am in my comfort zone. Things like math? LOADS of curricula, manipulatives, CDs, DVDs, the works. Things like literature? Nada.

 

 

That makes complete sense. When you know your subject, it's easy to take advantage of "teachable moments" rather than create those moments with help from a 3rd party.

 

This sounds like a case for self-education.:coolgleamA: