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genealogy questions re: immigrating from Ireland


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Does anyone here do genealogy? I am trying to find out info about my husband's family. Last night I found his great-great-grandmother's information. She was born somewhere around 1855 in Ireland. In 1865 she came to the US. I don't know who she traveled with. I looked at all the other passengers on the ship and there were 2 with the same last name, a man who was the right age to be her father, and a woman who was about 26 at the time, so not really old enough to be her mother, but possible. Did Irish girls marry that early? Of course it's a common last name (Ryan) and it's possible that they are no relation at all, or could be an aunt and uncle, or who knows? Is there any way I can find out this stuff?

 

I tried looking at the 1870 census, to see where she might be, and I couldn't find her living with 2 people by those names. Of course, anything might have happened in five years. What confused me was that I found listings in the 1870 census of girls about the right age (@ 15) but with no other household members listed. What would that mean? Such a young person would not be living alone, would they? Even if they were orphans, they should be living with somebody! How would orphans in an orphanage be listed in the census?

 

Thanks for any help or direction! I am brand new at this!

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Well, my first question would be whether or not she came over legally. My g-gmother was never a legal citizen. She came over from Finland on her deceased (US citizen) cousin's birth certificate at 16, then went up to Canada to stay with relatives before coming back to the US. Her real name doesn't show up on any records until she was about 21.

 

I have a g-gfather who came from Ireland in the late 1800s and was also illegal. I've given up on tracing his path, as he also had a very common Irish last name!

 

A list of young girls would most likely be some sort of orphanage/children's home. There SHOULD be a HOH listed somewhere, I would think! It's been a while since I've looked at those things, but isn't each person listed as HOH, spouse, child, boarder, etc.?

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Does anyone here do genealogy? I am trying to find out info about my husband's family. Last night I found his great-great-grandmother's information. She was born somewhere around 1855 in Ireland. In 1865 she came to the US. I don't know who she traveled with. I looked at all the other passengers on the ship and there were 2 with the same last name, a man who was the right age to be her father, and a woman who was about 26 at the time, so not really old enough to be her mother, but possible. Did Irish girls marry that early? Of course it's a common last name (Ryan) and it's possible that they are no relation at all, or could be an aunt and uncle, or who knows? Is there any way I can find out this stuff?

 

I tried looking at the 1870 census, to see where she might be, and I couldn't find her living with 2 people by those names. Of course, anything might have happened in five years. What confused me was that I found listings in the 1870 census of girls about the right age (@ 15) but with no other household members listed. What would that mean? Such a young person would not be living alone, would they? Even if they were orphans, they should be living with somebody! How would orphans in an orphanage be listed in the census?

 

Thanks for any help or direction! I am brand new at this!

 

According to a book I just read last week, the Irish immigration was unique in U.S. history because it was largely a migration of teenagers. They lived in boardinghouses.

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Well, my first question would be whether or not she came over legally. My g-gmother was never a legal citizen. She came over from Finland on her deceased (US citizen) cousin's birth certificate at 16, then went up to Canada to stay with relatives before coming back to the US. Her real name doesn't show up on any records until she was about 21.

 

I have a g-gfather who came from Ireland in the late 1800s and was also illegal. I've given up on tracing his path, as he also had a very common Irish last name!

 

A list of young girls would most likely be some sort of orphanage/children's home. There SHOULD be a HOH listed somewhere, I would think! It's been a while since I've looked at those things, but isn't each person listed as HOH, spouse, child, boarder, etc.?

 

I never thought of the legal/illegal aspect. I don't know. I saw several records in the census where it just listed her name, and there were no other household members listed. I also don't think that she was designated head. If someone lives alone, are they considered the HOH?

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Over 100 years ago someone of age 15 could be considered grown by society standards. Many girls were married and starting families at that age because life expectancy was very low- and not just Irish girls. in our family history from that time span almost all of the women were marrying around age 15 with at least one as young as 13. So, it doesn't surprise me that at age 15 she was possibly single and moved to a new country by herself or with distant relatives.

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According to a book I just read last week, the Irish immigration was unique in U.S. history because it was largely a migration of teenagers. They lived in boardinghouses.

 

Fascinating! But she was only at the most around 12-13. Would she really have come over by herself, do you think? I should do some reading about the Irish immigration, I guess!

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I never thought of the legal/illegal aspect. I don't know. I saw several records in the census where it just listed her name, and there were no other household members listed. I also don't think that she was designated head. If someone lives alone, are they considered the HOH?

Do they even list HOH for other families in the same time period? Later today I can email my SIL who is heavily into geneology for dh's family. She would know.

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Over 100 years ago someone of age 15 could be considered grown by society standards. Many girls were married and starting families at that age because life expectancy was very low- and not just Irish girls. in our family history from that time span almost all of the women were marrying around age 15 with at least one as young as 13. So, it doesn't surprise me that at age 15 she was possibly single and moved to a new country by herself or with distant relatives.

 

So then it would be possible for the two people with the same last name to have been her parents, I guess. If she were 10-12, the woman (who was listed as being 26 at the time of immigration) would have been 14-16 when she was born.

 

Hmm, my aunt has taken my grandfather's line all the way back to 1640 in New Haven, CT. I should look back through and check the age at marriage - I never looked at that before!

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I never thought of the legal/illegal aspect. I don't know. I saw several records in the census where it just listed her name, and there were no other household members listed. I also don't think that she was designated head. If someone lives alone, are they considered the HOH?

 

Yeah, Ellis Island is a rather boring trip for me. ;)

 

I just pulled up a page, and it seems there were no individual designations in the 1870 census other than sex, age, occupation, etc. Not even relation!

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Do you know when and where she was married? Or when she died?

 

If you can get the marriage certificate, it will probably list the names of her parents and you can compare that to the ship's records to see if she came over with her parents.

 

The death certificate should list when and where she was born. If you're lucky, it will be more specific than just "Ireland" and you can look for church records in Ireland to show who her parents were.

 

That 26 yo woman could be mother, sister, aunt, older cousin. It's really hard to tell.

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Does anyone here do genealogy? I am trying to find out info about my husband's family. Last night I found his great-great-grandmother's information. She was born somewhere around 1855 in Ireland. In 1865 she came to the US. I don't know who she traveled with. I looked at all the other passengers on the ship and there were 2 with the same last name, a man who was the right age to be her father, and a woman who was about 26 at the time, so not really old enough to be her mother, but possible. Did Irish girls marry that early? Of course it's a common last name (Ryan) and it's possible that they are no relation at all, or could be an aunt and uncle, or who knows? Is there any way I can find out this stuff?

 

I tried looking at the 1870 census, to see where she might be, and I couldn't find her living with 2 people by those names. Of course, anything might have happened in five years. What confused me was that I found listings in the 1870 census of girls about the right age (@ 15) but with no other household members listed. What would that mean? Such a young person would not be living alone, would they? Even if they were orphans, they should be living with somebody! How would orphans in an orphanage be listed in the census?

 

Thanks for any help or direction! I am brand new at this!

 

Usually census returns from this era are listed by household, even if the "household" is an institution. So for example I've seen logging camps, ships, and schools all under one listing.

Maybe she was working as household help at that time and the census taker was trying to make a distinction that she wasn't part of the family unit. Or perhaps she was living in detached quarters and it was listed as a separate household.

 

I know that my German relatives from that era came over with people from the same village who weren't really relatives. Does the passenger manifest list the place of origin of the passengers with much detail or is it pretty much just country? You might also be able to infer something from the order they are listed on the passenger manifest. For example, my g-grandfather is listed right with a group of about six other men from his village.

 

Sometimes it is easier to start with what you do know and work backward. So you might look at her marriage record, for example to see if she lists parents' info. Then you sort of track her backward. Trying to work from passenger lists forward can be frustrating because they weren't always the most complete of records.

 

The 1880 census is one of my favorites, because there is a great online data base that you can really torture. I've even looked at everyone with a certain first name in a certain county. Then you can look at the actual return to see who they were living with. That is also a census with info about things like birthplace and parents' birthplace. You can wheedle a lot of information out of it.

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Do you know when and where she was married? Or when she died?

 

If you can get the marriage certificate, it will probably list the names of her parents and you can compare that to the ship's records to see if she came over with her parents.

 

The death certificate should list when and where she was born. If you're lucky, it will be more specific than just "Ireland" and you can look for church records in Ireland to show who her parents were.

 

That 26 yo woman could be mother, sister, aunt, older cousin. It's really hard to tell.

 

I haven't found the name of her husband yet. In the 1920 census, she is listed as HOH, widowed, living with her 6 grown children. One of the children was widowed and had three children, one of whom was my dh's grandfather. The strange thing is that all of her dc have the last name Ryan also. So, did she marry somebody whose last name was also Ryan? Or was she slightly older when she emigrated and the man was her dh? (ICK!), but if so, then it seems odd she wouldn't have had dc until 1882. I haven't looked for her death date yet. She arrived in NY on 8/30/1865, and her oldest child was born in 1882. I have no idea what happened between 1865 and 1882!

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Usually census returns from this era are listed by household, even if the "household" is an institution. So for example I've seen logging camps, ships, and schools all under one listing.

Maybe she was working as household help at that time and the census taker was trying to make a distinction that she wasn't part of the family unit. Or perhaps she was living in detached quarters and it was listed as a separate household.

 

I know that my German relatives from that era came over with people from the same village who weren't really relatives. Does the passenger manifest list the place of origin of the passengers with much detail or is it pretty much just country? You might also be able to infer something from the order they are listed on the passenger manifest. For example, my g-grandfather is listed right with a group of about six other men from his village.

 

 

The 1880 census is one of my favorites, because there is a great online data base that you can really torture. I've even looked at everyone with a certain first name in a certain county. Then you can look at the actual return to see who they were living with. That is also a census with info about things like birthplace and parents' birthplace. You can wheedle a lot of information out of it.

 

Next time I go to the library I will look at the 1880 census! Thanks!

 

I couldn't actually see the passenger list, like the actual copy. So I don't know if they were listed together or not. She could have been travelling with any relative of any last name!

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Are you using Ancestry.com too? My sil swears by that site. Even though she doesn't often find information there she wants, she has connected with many others searching and can make links that way. Recently by looking down the line of a cousin of a grandparent she was able to connect with a descendant and that descendant had information on common relatives before the grandparent. It really answered a lot of questions and filled in spaces.

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My great-grandfather emigrated from Ireland at the age of 13, by himself. He had left his parents' home when he was 11 because they couldn't afford to feed him. He supported himself as a boot-black until he came to the States. Then he worked for a grocer and lived in a wooden crate in the grocer's storeroom. To my knowledge, his parents never emigrated and he never saw them again.

 

So yes, it's possible for a young person to emigrate alone and live alone during that time.

 

My great-grandfather grew up to be a police officer.

 

Tara

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I haven't found the name of her husband yet. In the 1920 census, she is listed as HOH, widowed, living with her 6 grown children. One of the children was widowed and had three children, one of whom was my dh's grandfather. The strange thing is that all of her dc have the last name Ryan also. So, did she marry somebody whose last name was also Ryan? Or was she slightly older when she emigrated and the man was her dh? (ICK!), but if so, then it seems odd she wouldn't have had dc until 1882. I haven't looked for her death date yet. She arrived in NY on 8/30/1865, and her oldest child was born in 1882. I have no idea what happened between 1865 and 1882!

 

Interesting.

Are you positive she was born a Ryan? Though I don't think it would be that strange for a Ryan to marry a Ryan!

I'd wonder if you weren't looking at two different women., especially if her first name is rather common.

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Interesting.

Are you positive she was born a Ryan? Though I don't think it would be that strange for a Ryan to marry a Ryan!

I'd wonder if you weren't looking at two different women., especially if her first name is rather common.

 

I am wondering this too...I need to go back to the library and start with my dh's great-grandmother and find her parents. I may have made a mistake and just not realized that I was looking at her married name. Ugh.

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I haven't found the name of her husband yet. In the 1920 census, she is listed as HOH, widowed, living with her 6 grown children. One of the children was widowed and had three children, one of whom was my dh's grandfather. The strange thing is that all of her dc have the last name Ryan also. So, did she marry somebody whose last name was also Ryan? Or was she slightly older when she emigrated and the man was her dh? (ICK!), but if so, then it seems odd she wouldn't have had dc until 1882. I haven't looked for her death date yet. She arrived in NY on 8/30/1865, and her oldest child was born in 1882. I have no idea what happened between 1865 and 1882!

 

Genealogy is like acting out an episode of CSI, but with documents if various trustworthiness instead of fingerprints and blood stains. And you have to constantly review the documents for how much "truth" they convey.

 

So start with what you are sure you know. Then slowly expand what you think is true. Make sure you are keeping track of why you think something. I like the Personal Ancestry File software, which is free and lets you put in photos (even scans of documents) and cite sources for each "fact".

 

If you are pretty sure about the 1920 census, start there. Does the year of immigration on the census match with the year of the passenger list you were looking at? Was she naturalized? If so, you might be able to find her naturalization papers filed with the local where she did this.

What is listed as place of birth for the mother and father of the people listed as her children? When and where were the children born? You might be able to find birth records for them that give info on the father or give the mother's maiden name. You might be able to find marriage records for the parents. They might be listed in a city directory. If they were Catholic, the church might still hold information in a marriage or baptismal registry.

 

What made you think that her maiden name was Ryan?

 

Don't be afraid to reconsider or go back to look at something you've read before. Sometimes I will notice something I hadn't noticed or make a connection that I hadn't perceived before.

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Genealogy is like acting out an episode of CSI, but with documents if various trustworthiness instead of fingerprints and blood stains. And you have to constantly review the documents for how much "truth" they convey.

 

So start with what you are sure you know. Then slowly expand what you think is true. Make sure you are keeping track of why you think something. I like the Personal Ancestry File software, which is free and lets you put in photos (even scans of documents) and cite sources for each "fact".

 

If you are pretty sure about the 1920 census, start there. Does the year of immigration on the census match with the year of the passenger list you were looking at? Was she naturalized? If so, you might be able to find her naturalization papers filed with the local where she did this.

What is listed as place of birth for the mother and father of the people listed as her children? When and where were the children born? You might be able to find birth records for them that give info on the father or give the mother's maiden name. You might be able to find marriage records for the parents. They might be listed in a city directory. If they were Catholic, the church might still hold information in a marriage or baptismal registry.

 

What made you think that her maiden name was Ryan?

 

Don't be afraid to reconsider or go back to look at something you've read before. Sometimes I will notice something I hadn't noticed or make a connection that I hadn't perceived before.

 

I don't remember. I *think* that I was searching for dh's grandfather's name. It appeared in the 1920 census. He was the grandson of the HOH. I think this is where I made my mistake. I think I saw that her name was *** Ryan, that she was born in Ireland, and started searching for when she came over, not even thinking about the maiden name issue. *bangs head* Now I don't know what her maiden name was, or her husband's first name, so now I have to start with dh's great-grandmother (and I am sure of her name, but don't know when she died or when she got married).

 

And today I found something that contradicts something else I found about another line of the family - I think a dd's name was transposed as the wife's name!

 

This could be addictive!!!!!

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I don't remember. I *think* that I was searching for dh's grandfather's name. It appeared in the 1920 census. He was the grandson of the HOH. I think this is where I made my mistake. I think I saw that her name was *** Ryan, that she was born in Ireland, and started searching for when she came over, not even thinking about the maiden name issue. *bangs head* Now I don't know what her maiden name was, or her husband's first name, so now I have to start with dh's great-grandmother (and I am sure of her name, but don't know when she died or when she got married).

 

And today I found something that contradicts something else I found about another line of the family - I think a dd's name was transposed as the wife's name!

 

This could be addictive!!!!!

 

You'll also want to ask youself how certain you are that the census citation you think is dh's grandfather. Do the other sibling names match the names on the census. Is the residence consistent with other information you have? I ask because even what seem like uncommon names can show up more than you would anticipate.

 

For years I thought that one relative had been working as a boiler operator in a Montana logging camp in 1900. It was the right name and general area of the country. And boiler operator seemed consistent with his known occupation as an iron foundry owner. Later I definitely found him living in Ohio in 1900, with his wife and daughter in the same building as his brother- and sister-in-law. I'd had no reason to suspect he'd ever lived in Ohio, yet that was not only where he got his foundry training, but where he became a US citizen. Don't know who the boiler operator was, but it wasn't my George.

 

 

You might even want to double check what relationships are listed. Could the HOH be a step mother of your dh's grandfather? Blended families aren't a 21st century invention.

 

It is addictive. I've been pretty dormant in genealogy over the last couple years, but it is great fun. Such a sense of history and recognition and discovery. Just keep plugging away. Eventually all the little bits of information will add up. And sometimes it does involve reconsidering what you think you knew.

 

Now if someone can tell me why there needs to be several different sets of Abijah's and Pleasants in three generations of an extended family, I'd be greatful. You'd think a less common name would be a blessing, until you realize there are five of them, several with the same last name, from multiple generations and family lines and then they have to go and marry cousins to boot. Ack.

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The names may not be transposed. I would look for other incidences of the names and go from there. My great great grandfather had 2 brothers that were twins in the 1800s. One was John Louis, the other was Louis John. When they had children, John's first son was Samuel Horace and then Louis's first son was Horace Samuel - but one apparently was called Sam and the other Sammy. This apparently went on thru several children. When my uncle was researching family history this drove him bonkers to say the least until someone was able to figure out the pattern. My grandfather (other side of the family) had 2 half brothers who were both named James. To know which was which you have to verify birthdates and mother because they are only 6 years apart. I know this is extreme, but some families seemed to use and reuse names over and over.

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If you're looking for more recent things (since 1900), consider checking the local newspaper for obituaries, which often list other relatives. And depending on which area of Ireland your girl was from, she might be listed on various Catholic church roles, such as for Confirmation, Banns of Marriage, etc.

 

I play with genealogy in fits and starts. Currently I am stuck on an ancestor, Rhoda Reed, from Wilkes County, NC. She is listed on census materials as Non-white-colored, but family tradition through all 6 of her children's families claim that she was a full-blooded Cherokee. Since she was in southern Kentucky when they rounded up the Cherokee for the Trail of Tears, it doesn't surprise me that she might not have wanted to be counted as "Indian" during that time. Anybody here familiar with Ashe/Wilkes County NC in the 1780's - 1800?

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I have a number of Irish immigrant ancestors for that time period and you are lucky if you have information about the ship. Do you know where in Ireland she was from? Some areas have better records.

 

Many of my Irish and other ancestors from that era were "orphaned". I put it in quotes because only one parent had died, yet usually the surviving parent was too overwhelmed (or didn't have child care to work and raise kids as a single parent) to continue raising the children. Children at really young ages to me (10 I think) were sent to extended family to work, or even placed (perhaps by a priest) in families to work for a living. It was definitely hard on these kids to lose their mom (for example) and then be separated from siblings and home and sent to work in another part of the state. They often did manage to stay in touch with siblings but family history about how hard this was has come down through the generations.

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I was at the library briefly today but didn't really find out anything more. Ugh. I need to find the great-great-grandmother in a census before her husband died, so I can find out his name, so that then I can figure out when and where they got married, so I can figure out her maiden name. I do think that I have the approximate birth and immigration dates right. Born around 1856 in Ireland, immigrated around 1866. First child born in 1882 (my dh's great-grandmother). I can't find her death date either, and mil hinted at a scandal/tragedy/skeleton in the closet on the phone yesterday and said we wouldn't discuss it on the phone! Great, except we live 450 miles apart and I was just there with no plans in the near future to go back.

 

I need a couple of hours at the library! I am truly, deeply grateful for all your help and advice!

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It is very possible that she married a man with her last name. Happened a lot then and even now it is not uncommon. (How do you like that double negative?)

 

My great-something-or-another grandmother married a man with the same name as her father. But, then, how many men with the name Patrick Phillip Kane do you think were living in Chicago in the 1860's??? When my mom went to look, she had 5 to choose from who were born in the year my great-...-grandfather was born. Add to that confusion, three of them had fathers with Patrick Phillip as their father, too. I mean *really*!

 

As for the other Ryans your Dh's family traveled with, that could be very easily explained as well. Many men remarried and married young women. The child could be his from a previous marriage.

 

Kris

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Yes, dear, sometimes families sent children alone to get them out of dire situations. They thought that in America, at least they would have a chance. She may well have made her way on her own. Or friends might have helped her out until she found a position somewhere that would give her a roof over her head for a while, etc. People were much more self-sufficient at a much, much younger age at that time....

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