Faith vs. Intellect

[Aubrey]

I'm just curious...have been thinking about this off & on for yrs...

 

If you (or someone you know) is intellectually...in the gifted range... for the sake of this conversation, not just smart, but really gifted...what (if any) faith do you follow? How (if you care to share) did you come to that faith? Are these two parts of yourself in harmony or conflict? Have you found others in your religion/denomination/lack of religion with similar "abilities"? (Sorry for the quotation marks. All of this is so...touchy...it's very hard to phrase. I've retyped several times.)

 

Finally, if you are a woman, does that have any impact on any of the above? For ex, many faiths have different roles assigned to men and women, so a gifted man might have one set of circumstances in said religion while a gifted woman could have a very different set of circumstances.

 

There. Hopefully I've been clear w/out insulting anyone. :001_huh: I'm *deeply* interested in hearing your experiences!

[Tam101]

I don't think the two need to be in conflict with each other. There are a lot of people walking around that "think" they are brilliant and smarter then faith based set and look down on them, but I don't belive their intellect is actually any higher. I just think they are snobs! Gifted is a term that is thrown around a lot these days, but the true genius’ are very few.

 

Hope I didn't just insult you! :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

My Christian faith is based on what I believe to be reality. So I trust the empirical evidence of those who wrote about their first hand experiences. My intellect cannot comprehend all things related to my faith because I have a faith in a God that is bigger than my intellect can totally comprehend. But my intellect is more than satisfied with how the Bible really explains life better than any other faith system (or non-faith system) that I've seen.

 

My dh has a similar feeling toward his own faith and intellect.

 

(And yes, both of us are gifted.)

[ElizabethB]

Well, we're just smart, but a friend who heard our conversion stories said, "That is quite different from the normal path."

 

C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity" was in the mix.

 

A recent good book I read somewhat along those lines was Moreland's "Love Your God with All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul"

 

Schaeffer and Colson also have good insights in some of their books.

 

We have laser physicist and rocket science friends that make us look dumb! Our rocket scientist friend who is a Christian also likes Moreland and is getting a degree from Biola.

[Aubrey]

I don't think the two need to be in conflict with each other. There are a lot of people walking around that "think" they are brilliant and smarter then faith based set and look down on them, but I don't belive their intellect is actually any higher. I just think they are snobs! Gifted is a term that is thrown around a lot these days, but the true genius’ are very few.

 

Hope I didn't just insult you! :)

 

No, but you have made it quite clear why these people would feel misunderstood & rejected by others in a religious setting.

[Aubrey]

My Christian faith is based on what I believe to be reality. So I trust the empirical evidence of those who wrote about their first hand experiences. My intellect cannot comprehend all things related to my faith because I have a faith in a God that is bigger than my intellect can totally comprehend. But my intellect is more than satisfied with how the Bible really explains life better than any other faith system (or non-faith system) that I've seen.

 

My dh has a similar feeling toward his own faith and intellect.

 

(And yes, both of us are gifted.)

 

Ok, that's a good explanation of how you get there to begin w/...what about how that works out in relationships/duties w/in the church after that? I guess I meant the question as two parts: *what* you believe & *how* you then interact w/ others of similar belief. Hmm...I'm not sure that makes sense...:001_huh:

[Liz CA]

...or some are educated beyond their intelligence. They swallowed everything academia has taught them and forgot to actually think for themselves. Some so-called brilliant scientist believe some rather loop-holed theories but have a hard time believing anything that is too simple an explanation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ok, that's a good explanation of how you get there to begin w/...what about how that works out in relationships/duties w/in the church after that? I guess I meant the question as two parts: *what* you believe & *how* you then interact w/ others of similar belief. Hmm...I'm not sure that makes sense...:001_huh:

 

Well, dh is a pastor and spends hours in the Greek and Hebrew studying the Bible. He then repackages all that study into something that is understood by people across a spectrum of ages and intellectual abilities. He doesn't do it all by himself though - we've found that the Bible itself - esp. if you go verse by verse has multi-layers that speak to people - sometimes in ways that we hadn't anticipated.

 

I teach young people in our church. I encourage them to ask those deep questions. They were scared to ask anything at first. Now I get some really good questions that I have to do dig to find answers to.

 

I think our approach to the Bible and to God means though that we are only satisfied with a church that goes deeper than the surface when it comes to teaching. We've found though that there can be some negative trends in churches that delve deep into the doctrines of the Bible. Some of those trends are "knowing a lot about the Bible without knowing how to apply it to your life" and "knowing a lot about God without having a vibrant relationship with God." We're trying to counteract some of those trends in our small but intellectually minded church.

[Aubrey]

...or some are educated beyond their intelligence. They swallowed everything academia has taught them and forgot to actually think for themselves. Some so-called brilliant scientist believe some rather loop-holed theories but have a hard time believing anything that is too simple an explanation.

 

It's interesting, too, that people automatically point to engineers & scientists as gifted. Look! Our church has an astronaut!

 

But I've talked to more people I'd consider gifted *here.* But here? The gifted ones seem to just be stay at home moms. Pretty incognito. I mean...I'm sure there are gifted engineers & scientists, but statistically speaking...that's not where they all end up, kwim? Given the gifted people's difficulty fitting in & following rules...I'd guess that the scientists & engineers are predominantly former AP students, which is a smart but very different breed.

[Aubrey]

Well, dh is a pastor and spends hours in the Greek and Hebrew studying the Bible. He then repackages all that study into something that is understood by people across a spectrum of ages and intellectual abilities. He doesn't do it all by himself though - we've found that the Bible itself - esp. if you go verse by verse has multi-layers that speak to people - sometimes in ways that we hadn't anticipated.

 

I teach young people in our church. I encourage them to ask those deep questions. They were scared to ask anything at first. Now I get some really good questions that I have to do dig to find answers to.

 

I think our approach to the Bible and to God means though that we are only satisfied with a church that goes deeper than the surface when it comes to teaching. We've found though that there can be some negative trends in churches that delve deep into the doctrines of the Bible. Some of those trends are "knowing a lot about the Bible without knowing how to apply it to your life" and "knowing a lot about God without having a vibrant relationship with God." We're trying to counteract some of those trends in our small but intellectually minded church.

 

Have you always been in leadership in your church(es)? Have you encountered (more/different) frustrations when you *weren't* in a teaching/leading position? What about your gender? How does that effect your perspective (if at all)?

 

I'm guessing...& it's just a guess...that gifted men of faith will tend to be in leadership positions. Gifted women...I'm less sure. I know there are some leadership positions for some of them. But overall? There seem to be fewer gifted women in protestant churches than elsewhere in life. I'm wondering if I've failed to notice them, if they're in other faiths, or if they're predominantly atheist.

[Tam101]

No, but you have made it quite clear why these people would feel misunderstood & rejected by others in a religious setting.

 

 

I think I may have been misunderstood and maybe I misunderstood you. I can't imagine someone going into a religious setting and being rejected because they are smart. If that is the case I would run from that church and find one more welcoming. Everyone of faith has at some point questioned their faith. Maybe your question is one not of being gifted, but of just being a thinking person?

The person I was picturing in my first post was someone I know that holds no qualms about telling people that he is smarter, more talented and better read then average. (Keep in mind this an almost 50 year old whose crowning achievement is working in a retail music store.) He instantly looks down on anyone with faith as being intellectually void.

disclaimer:I'm not a regular church goer, but I am a believer. And I don't claim to be gifted or know anyone that is. I don't claim to be a good speller either. :lol:

[Amber in AUS]

I think this is truly interesting Aubrey. My father is truly gifted and has no faith. By that i mean he doesn't declare himself as Christian, or anything else and certainly doesn't go to any kind of church/lodge etc and doesn't own any type of Holy book. He is a jack of all trades gifted person, he has studied many, many things through his lifetime and excelled at them all. He is a proof based person and certainly isn't willing to accept anything without hard evidence. To him religious people are putting their faith blindly into things which have no proof of being real, he believes this to be a waste of time and energy. He is very strong in his stand point and doesn't have any fear of what might or might not happen to him after he dies etc.

[Crimson Wife]

Among our friends who are graduates of Ivy caliber universities, the predominant religious affiliations are Catholic, Jew, and Mormon. Smaller numbers are Episcopalian/Anglican, Lutheran, Evangelical, Eastern Orthodox, Hindu, Buddhist, Baha'i, and Muslim.

 

The Christian denominations that are liturgical and don't take a literal reading of Scripture tend to be overrepresented when compared to individuals I've met in other settings. I can't think of any Baptists or Pentecostals for example. Also, Jews and Mormons are quite a bit more prevalent.

[Crimson Wife]

Found some statistics from my alma mater. The religious affiliation of students are:

 

27% None (vs. 16% of the overall U.S. population)

27% Roman Catholic (vs. 24%)

23% Protestant (vs. 51%)

9% Jewish (vs. 2%)

5% Buddhist (vs. 0.7%)

4% Hindu (vs. 0.4%)

2% Muslim (vs. 0.6%)

2% Other (vs. 5%)

1% Eastern Orthodox (vs. 0.6%)

[Peela]

My dad is a phD astrophycisist...extremely atheist, if there is such a thing! Shakes his head with incredulity that anyone could believe the Bible. His sister is a doctor- fundamentalist Christian. Not sure either are in the highly gifted range though. Just smart.

It would be interesting to see the statistics of super genuises and their inclinations.

My own tendency would be to suspect that more highly intelligent people would reject dogma abd structure, but embrace the concept of a higher consciousness. But that could be compeltely my own pprojection :)

[EthiopianFood]

I had a very strong faith that I never questioned growing up. I now see no concrete evidence of God anywhere. There is a part of me, deep down, that apparently still believes in God, but I am unable to embrace that because my intellect says I have no reason to. I look to others to see what makes them believe, but I never find any reason that makes any logical sense whatsoever. I feel like I am missing something, like there is an answer out there, but I can't find it. I feel like others have been able to find their answer, but I question too much to be able to accept these answers. The logical conclusion is that there is no God (or god), and that is why there are no reasons why I should believe in him. My heart doesn't want to accept this. I wish I could be like everyone else and just accept SOMETHING as truth, and be okay with it.

 

How can I, as a logical person, approach something in the only way I know how, i.e. logically, that may not even be logical, i.e. the spiritual realm?

 

ETA: I am attempting to make sense of the Christian faith. I am a Mennonite. I am personally leaning toward atheism, but intellectually am agnostic.

 

Is this at all what you are looking for?

[catz]

My husband and I (and our kids) are all probably in the highly to profoundly gifted range. My husband and I were both raised Catholic, but became Unitarian. Our parents are still Catholic, but very much have their own brand of Catholicism. They don't literally believe every tenet of the Catholic faith. I went to a very old fashioned Catholic school growing up. It didn't make sense to me as a very young child.

 

I'm not sure that anything can be said broadly of gifted people. I think they can be found across all religions, races, and socioeconomic status. There are people out there who are gifted who don't know they are gifted. My husband and I didn't really know we were gifted until adult hood when we sent our own child to school. He hit the ceiling on a GT screening test and jumped grade levels in everything in months. I just think maybe gifted people approach and think about religion and faith differently than others. Which is actually true about every aspect of life probably.

[creekland]

I can't speak for everyone, but I can say I am a Christian - relatively conservative (which means conservatives might call me moderate and liberals would call me conservative).

 

My journey to my own faith came in college (secular U). I looked at everything around me and went back to the beginning - not the beginning of man, but the beginning of everything - when there was nothing, then there was something (big bang or otherwise). I asked myself, could that happen by chance? I don't think so. Everything in my scientific thinking and training says no. Therefore, I think it makes more intellectual sense to believe in a creator. I simply can not understand those that believe otherwise, but I'm a firm believer in, "to each our own."

 

My next issue was to think, "if there's a creator, who?" My intellectual thinking led me to believe that the creator would be a major world religion, not something a minor few knew. The reasoning here is humanistic, I suppose, but I can't believe some creator with the ability to create our universe would want to remain hidden.

 

So, I considered the major world religions and a few offshoots of each. My intellectual reasoning ended up with Christianity due to the death and resurrection of Jesus. I know the reasons others use to discredit it, but they simply don't make enough sense to me - mainly due to the rise of the belief through the disciples. It also made more sense than any other major religion or offshoot (to me).

 

Once in Christianity, the various beliefs I hold (liberal/conservative/interpretations, etc) are generally based on reasoning and/or faith based on reasoning, but that's how the big picture came about.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Okay, I'm "gifted" but really hate the label as when it rears its head, it's more about it being a character flaw, not a "gift."

 

Anyway, the reason I was unhappy in mainstream Christianity was that I felt it wasn't logical, didn't put the puzzle together clearly, and there were too many things that we'd find out "when with Jesus though we won't care when we're with him."

 

The Bible is SUCH a big book and I had an impossible time wrapping my head around the fact that God cared SO much to give us the book but not to put in significant answers people would want to know (or would put them in part way). I also was VERY concerned about issues like people being ****ed from birth because their circumstances didn't allow them the opportunity to learn about God and his Son. There were other issues also, but mostly I just wanted to know the truth about God, his purpose, and the like.

 

So I decided that the answers WERE there and I was going to find them. I tried a few different kinds of churches then decided I wanted to sit down with a group of people who just wanted to know the answers so would do whatever it took to find them. I made up flier to help me find this group of determined and diligent people who were going to find out what God was *really* trying to tell people.

 

Then I got a knock on the door. :) Instead of being told what to believe (and having to just deal with less than full answers), I was helped to draw out the scriptures related to topics and ponder them (just like I wanted my group to do!). A systematic Bible study, tons of additional study on my own, meetings, and discussions with people in and outside of the group just solidified the choice.

 

And it doesn't leave things out. We go over EVERY verse. We appreciate science's CONTRIBUTION to backing up the Bible. We pour over history, science, arts, current events, human condition, etc and how it all relates to God's plan. The puzzle is discernable rather than having gaping holes between a few pieces.

 

As for your question, these two parts are in harmony. Though there are plenty of non-gifted people in our religion, they generally have more knowledge of scripture as well as the science, history, etc that backs it up than many people. It strengthens our faith just as God said it would.

 

Now, our religion does have different roles for men and women; but different doesn't make either inferior or less worthy and valuable. God, through certain faithful men, speaks VERY highly of women and their role in his purpose.

 

I'm hoping this makes sense because I'm NOT gifted in writing or the mechanics of writing :)

 

ETA: my brother is WAY gifted (though lacking in various ways). He has two beliefs regarding God which suggests he believes in God. One problem he has is due to falsehoods mainstream Christianity (as a whole) promotes despite what the Bible says and God's personality. Obviously, showing him the truth about God helps here. But then he has this other belief which isn't so easy to redirect. He believes religion is simply man's way of controlling one another both in harmful and helpful ways. That one would take many many hours of both systematic as well as specific study to work through....and it would require him to be open and honest-hearted. He's just not at this time.

Edited August 10, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[Ester Maria]

It's interesting, too, that people automatically point to engineers & scientists as gifted. Look! Our church has an astronaut!

 

But I've talked to more people I'd consider gifted *here.* But here? The gifted ones seem to just be stay at home moms. Pretty incognito. I mean...I'm sure there are gifted engineers & scientists, but statistically speaking...that's not where they all end up, kwim? Given the gifted people's difficulty fitting in & following rules...I'd guess that the scientists & engineers are predominantly former AP students, which is a smart but very different breed.

My husband comes from a rather scientifically-minded family with a few generations of doctors, while he himself has also opted to go into biomedical field, but into pharmacy. They're also orthodox Jews.

For somebody who grew up amongst such crew, my husband has quite an interesting view of medicine. He says, medicine is a field that requires practical skill way more than that it requires breaking barriers in scientific thinking. Something like a skill-based job, only of a higher complexity level than, say, being a car mechanic, but essentially, he says that the type of thinking required to do both jobs is pretty much the same type of thinking: know the pattern, spot the error, fix the error. If you work as a regular doctor and aren't into research and aren't a specialist that deals with challenging not-BTDT cases, medicine itself doesn't require you to break any barriers in thinking and turns out to be quite a routine job actually - only, again, with much higher complexity and accountability level than some other routine mechanics-based jobs. To learn medicine requires time because of the amount of things and the way they're intertwined more than because of truly hard thinking involved.

 

On the other hand, engineer and research biomedical fields, which go to very deepest and very bottom of chemistry, physics, mathematics and natural laws, require much, much more ice-breaking thinking for the invidual. A person that has thoroughly studied theoretical physics or chemistry, that is good in what they studied and that works on the newest projects in the field is - according to my husband - considerably less likely to be religious and to adhere to dogma-based patterns of thinking, with a few cases of, as he calls it, "intellectual compromises", in terms of accepting something like Einstein's God, higher intelligence and order, or any other "vague" concept of the kind, but very, VERY few that (and my husband reads into it saying it's out of "sentimental" reasons more than true convinction) believe in a denominational God of Judeo-Christian legacy. One of his colleagues who happens to have been brought up in a religious setting that denied evolution said once during a dinner, "You cannot make a living in the days out of developing pharmaceutical drugs that are fundamentally based on the concepts of evolution, and then negate evolution in the evenings." For some people, their specific denominations have been quite problematic once they got into serious science. And then though, there are exceptions that have managed to combine complex theology with complex science... but - again, in my husband's words, as I personally cannot observe it - they're a minority. Most of the people he works or has worked with fall into the agnostic / atheist / don't care range. I don't know if the situation differs among physicists, these are people in biomedical fields and chemistry he's talking about.

 

Now, whether that's an issue of intelligence or only of specific knowledge that one has gained, it remains a question.

My husband's attitude towards religion is pretty much "I don't think it's divine, but it's our national tradition." If he keeps something, he keeps it in more of Leibowitz's sense, out of a personal choice to keep it, regardless of the (non-)existence of God. Our eldest tends to be somewhat like him in that aspect.

 

I've never actually believed either. I always had methodological issues with religion as an explanatory system of the world, always had philosophical issues with Kuzari or whatever was the argument I was given for the veracity of the tradition, but then again, I come from a secular background which had largely the same approach. All of my family members also happen to be highly educated (multiple doctorates, professors, etc.) and rather intelligent people, with preference towards scientific, very logical way of thinking. An attaichment to Judaism is usually a sentimental, love-my-people-and-my-tradition one rather than a serious intellectual stance amongst them. They'll have kosher kitchen, won't work on shabat, they'll send kids to Hebrew school in addition to the regular one, maybe even go as far to attend some services, learn a bit or loosely follow nidda, but... they won't actually believe what they do is a divine obligation they took upon themselves Xk years ago on Sinai, etc. They won't have "personal relationship with God", only this intertwined set of practices that serves more as a family and national cohesion as well as a nice and valuable tradition they want to keep. I know a whole lot of people like that, Jewish atheists, in whom the "national obligation" crashes with the intellectual honesty and produces this hybrid of a (somewhat of a) practice and learning, but without underlying belief.

 

I cannot help it, I've been exposed to scientific circles somewhat via my husband, and I know hardly anyone with serious scientific education that is a serious believer (there are a few, but those are mostly physicists). At some stage, it does seem to require theological "compromises" from those people (Einstein's God, or a MUCH more elaborated theology than usual)... or the denial of the entire scientific method and science as an ultimately flawed explanatory system, but that's pretty hard to do as it operates with observable facts.

 

The point is, ultimately, both are axiomatic systems. I mean, theoretically, you cannot even prove the world exists (the scary thing about solipsism is that you cannot quite disprove it other than with that same world you are trying to prove), not to even go into some very problematic modern physics and mathematics. But still, I hold to the "don't multiply the hypotheses" one. I find that I don't need the hypothesis of God in order to explain the world to myself, on the contrary.

 

In my view, belief in God is not a matter of a "aesthetic preference" (I have to keep a low profile on religious threads as I seem to have an innate ability to make them go downhill :lol:, but I was reading them recently, as well as the accounts of people who tried to believe, but couldn't, etc. - and I agree, often, you cannot bring yourself to believe something you think false just because it's a very nice explanation) as much as it's a matter of serious intellectual convinction that resulted after much thought and query - or lack thereof. I accept stances which are a result of that, regardless of the "side" of the conclusion, since I believe that the way one comes to the conclusion is the mark of an intelligent person, sometimes even more than the conclusion itself.

 

I also adhere to the good ol' definition of intelligence as the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it. Any idea, that is. :D

[freethinkermama]

I'm just curious...have been thinking about this off & on for yrs...

 

If you (or someone you know) is intellectually...in the gifted range... for the sake of this conversation, not just smart, but really gifted...what (if any) faith do you follow? How (if you care to share) did you come to that faith? Are these two parts of yourself in harmony or conflict? Have you found others in your religion/denomination/lack of religion with similar "abilities"? (Sorry for the quotation marks. All of this is so...touchy...it's very hard to phrase. I've retyped several times.)

 

Finally, if you are a woman, does that have any impact on any of the above? For ex, many faiths have different roles assigned to men and women, so a gifted man might have one set of circumstances in said religion while a gifted woman could have a very different set of circumstances.

 

There. Hopefully I've been clear w/out insulting anyone. :001_huh: I'm *deeply* interested in hearing your experiences!

 

My husband is "gifted" based on IQ tests. He grew up nominally Catholic, left in hs. Was born again at 27. Was very active in evangelical ministry and Bible study and church leadership for a decade before becoming an atheist.

 

According to hubby: He says he liked the moral guidance of Christianity, particulary of the evangelical sort. He worked really hard at it and gave lip service to 6-day creation, Biblical inerrancy, and could sometimes convince himself of them. It certainly was what he taught to the young men he discipled. Eventually it just became too difficult to keep up. Once he started looking at the Bible critically, "with the mindset of 'convince me' rather than, 'I want to believe this right or wrong,' I realized why it took so much effort to believe. It's simply untrue."

 

I'm not gifted, but "above average" (according to tests. Doesn't matter much to me, but that was part of your question :)) No, personally, I didn't find it difficult to take part in different things than hubby. I subscribed to a similarly conservative Biblical perspective. I revelled in not being able to teach men, being told to be quiet in church, my vaunted position as "helpmeet". I really did! Part of that was that in really conservative churches, strict adherence to Biblical gender roles was praised and honored. The more conservative I was, the more honored I was. If not in the eyes of "The World" then at least with the Church. Additionally, husband has always been very egalitarian and never made me felt like I was "submissive". He supported me through my master's degree, and supports me if I want to go to work, or to get my Ph.D. Even when we were still Christian. Looking back, I believe I became a Christian in my teen years to give me a foundation and a feeling of security in my life. It worked for a long, long time. Then, when analytical, more rational criticisms came into play, the faith wore away over a number of years, and finally crumbled entirely.

 

T.

[Onceuponatime]

Ok, that's a good explanation of how you get there to begin w/...what about how that works out in relationships/duties w/in the church after that? I guess I meant the question as two parts: *what* you believe & *how* you then interact w/ others of similar belief. Hmm...I'm not sure that makes sense...:001_huh:

 

I can identify with this: "I have a faith in a God that is bigger than my intellect can totally comprehend."

 

As the years go by, I find myself increasingly in disagreement with many things taught or assumed to be true in my faith group (kind of fundamental/evangelical Christian). When I look at the Bible, I no longer see what they see, in fact I've come to realize that so much that is taught is not really in the Bible at all.

 

Recently, I began to press someone I respected for some definite answers to some questions I had. To my dismay, I found him not able to answer them directly, but not willing to admit it. In the end what he did admit was he didn't think the answer to the question mattered in the big picture, the message was the same no matter what.

 

If there are many things that don't matter one way or the other, why don't we teach that? Because so many people believe that so much does matter, it causes discord, arguing, and sometimes downright nastiness when they are told otherwise. It may even cause some to leave the church and God.

 

So, I don't openly question or express personal opinion. I do a lot of study on my own. Sometimes I might nudge the boundary a little in a Bible class. :-) When I see a sea of blank uncomprehending faces, I know that is one direction I might avoid in the future. I might go further with a friend that I trust, but I still choose my words carefully, so that she understands I am not rejecting God or the Bible.

 

As a woman, I stick to the things that are expected of me and those that are allowed, because really it doesn't matter to me how I serve. Service is worthwhile no matter what your personal convictions and intelligence.

 

I think what people respond to negatively is intellectual arrogance. Humility goes a long way. Plus it is Biblical. ;)

[Mom0012]

I'm finding this thread fascinating, but a little depressing as well. I don't have any idea what my IQ is, so maybe I shouldn't respond, but I am a thinker. I don't just accept things people tell me. I have to understand it and believe it for myself.

 

When I was in my early 20's, I had a series of crisis that led me to a spiritual connection with God purely based on faith and desire. That was the happiest time in my life.

 

Somewhere along the way, I stopped making an active attempt to connect with God and I lost that faith.

 

When I started homeschooling my kids and using SL, I began reading the Bible to them and my faith was restored. Not as strong as it was in my 20's, but a small light began to glow.

 

Unfortunately, I joined Community Bible Study and what I found was that the more I learned about the Bible, the less I was able to believe. I also found that no one was able to answer any of my questions about the many things I felt were contradictions in the Bible. Nor did they even want to try. The last year I did CBS, we studied Revelations. That did me in. There was no way I could personally reconcile Revelations with the New Testament. It completely wiped out any faith I ever had and even though I'd like to restore it because it was a comfort, I don't know if I ever will be able to.

 

My mother is very active in CBS, and even though I am very close to her, I have found it best not to actually discuss any of this with her, because she can't answer any of my questions and I feel like I stir doubts in her and the last thing I want to do is steal her comfort. She just takes it all on faith. She pushes aside the things that don't make sense and I'm happy for her. I wish I could do the same.

 

Lisa

[Aubrey]

I had a very strong faith that I never questioned growing up. I now see no concrete evidence of God anywhere. There is a part of me, deep down, that apparently still believes in God, but I am unable to embrace that because my intellect says I have no reason to. I look to others to see what makes them believe, but I never find any reason that makes any logical sense whatsoever. I feel like I am missing something, like there is an answer out there, but I can't find it. I feel like others have been able to find their answer, but I question too much to be able to accept these answers. The logical conclusion is that there is no God (or god), and that is why there are no reasons why I should believe in him. My heart doesn't want to accept this. I wish I could be like everyone else and just accept SOMETHING as truth, and be okay with it.

 

How can I, as a logical person, approach something in the only way I know how, i.e. logically, that may not even be logical, i.e. the spiritual realm?

 

ETA: I am attempting to make sense of the Christian faith. I am a Mennonite. I am personally leaning toward atheism, but intellectually am agnostic.

 

Is this at all what you are looking for?

 

Yes, this is one kind of answer I'm looking for. Thank you. :001_smile:

[Aubrey]

My husband and I (and our kids) are all probably in the highly to profoundly gifted range. My husband and I were both raised Catholic, but became Unitarian. Our parents are still Catholic, but very much have their own brand of Catholicism. They don't literally believe every tenet of the Catholic faith. I went to a very old fashioned Catholic school growing up. It didn't make sense to me as a very young child.

 

I'm not sure that anything can be said broadly of gifted people. I think they can be found across all religions, races, and socioeconomic status. There are people out there who are gifted who don't know they are gifted. My husband and I didn't really know we were gifted until adult hood when we sent our own child to school. He hit the ceiling on a GT screening test and jumped grade levels in everything in months. I just think maybe gifted people approach and think about religion and faith differently than others. Which is actually true about every aspect of life probably.

 

I don't mean that anything can be said about them broadly. That's why I really do want to hear individual experiences. The bolded part is really *why* I want to hear about it. :001_smile:

[Rivka]

I'm a Unitarian-Universalist, which I understand is the American religion with the highest average education level. (Not that education level = intelligence, of course.)

 

Here's something that was written by one of our founders, William Ellery Channing:

 

We profess not to know a book, which demands a more frequent exercise of reason than the Bible. In addition to the remarks now made on its infinite connexions, we may observe, that its style nowhere affects the precision of science, or the accuracy of definition. Its language is singularly glowing, bold, and figurative, demanding more frequent departures from the literal sense, than that of our own age and country, and consequently demanding more continual exercise of judgment. We find, too, that the different portions of this book, instead of being confined to general truths, refer perpetually to the times when they were written, to states of society, to modes of thinking, to controversies in the church, to feelings and usages which have passed away, and without the knowledge of which we are constantly in danger of extending to all times, and places, what was of temporary and local application. We find, too, that some of these books are strongly marked by the genius and character of their respective writers, that the Holy Spirit did not so guide the Apostles as to suspend the peculiarities of their minds, and that a knowledge of their feelings, and of the influences under which they were placed, is one of the preparations for understanding their writings. With these views of the Bible, we feel it our bounden duty to exercise our reason upon it perpetually, to compare, to infer, to look beyond the letter to the spirit, to seek in the nature of the subject, and the aim of the writer, his true meaning; and, in general, to make use of what is known, for explaining what is difficult, and for discovering new truths.

 

Our religion has changed quite a bit from the "Unitarian Christianity" that Channing wrote about, but the central place given to rationality is still a major feature of UU. I could never be comfortable in a religion that asked me to shut off my scientific/analytic mind.

[juelle]

One of our pastors moved to College Church in Wheaton. His sermon on 4-4-10 is on this topic. He's the most intellectually gifted person I know. You might enjoy it.

[dangermom]

I'm LDS (a Mormon). I'm reasonably bright, but not terribly brilliant or anything. I find my faith very intellectually satisfying; it presents a picture of the universe that makes sense to me and has endless opportunity for deep study. At the same time, that's not the important part of the gospel. The important part is what anyone can do regardless of intelligence--have faith, be kind, serve others, endure.

 

Because I went to a fancy university--which I did not deserve--I know a lot of Mormons who are far more intellectually gifted than I am (including our very own Julie in Austin, who remains one of my all-time best Sunday School teachers--but then I haven't been to adult SS in years because I work with the children! :laugh:). I enjoy knowing them and reading their thoughts, but I don't think I can really keep up.

 

Intellectual pride can certainly be a problem. One of my favorite scriptures reminds me that I need to be careful about thinking too much of my own abilities: "O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish. But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. (2 Ne. 9:28-29)

 

In our church, pretty much everyone has a job, and we switch around all the time. I've been working in the Primary (children's classes) for years, with the occasional foray into the teen girls' organization. Primary is a pretty good place to be, though I suppose it doesn't involve a lot of Socratic dialogue.:001_smile:

 

I'm not sure if that helps you? I can try to say more if you want.

[Jayne J]

Must be brief--chaos is ensuing here, however I want to submit my vague seed of a thought. Highly intelligent people tend to have a hard time accepting hypocrisy, so they may have a harder time accepting the reality of Christian life--i.e that it is made up of imperfect sinners, who do not always do what they want to do, but what they do not want to do. But highly intelligent people also tend to be more comfortable with holding abstract and seemingly contradictory ideas at the same time, (i.e. wave/particle) which would cetrainly make thngs like Trinity easier to live with.

 

I realize these are sweeping generalizations, made up largely of my own experience. I made the "gifted" class cut-off by the skin of my teeth, but spent most of my high school and adult life surrounded by (and married to) highly gifted people and it is from them I draw the above generalizations.

 

Must rrun, screaming is too loud to ignore, will check in later!

[Aubrey]

Sometimes I might nudge the boundary a little in a Bible class. :-) When I see a sea of blank uncomprehending faces, I know that is one direction I might avoid in the future. I might go further with a friend that I trust, but I still choose my words carefully, so that she understands I am not rejecting God or the Bible.

 

This. I've never known a gifted person who could successfully avoid these kinds of conversations (in school). To try to keep quiet when they have ideas is either impossible or spirit-crushing.

 

As a woman, I stick to the things that are expected of me and those that are allowed, because really it doesn't matter to me how I serve. Service is worthwhile no matter what your personal convictions and intelligence.

 

Again, the people I've known could have tried this for a while, but it's a perfect ex of what I'm talking about--being put into this kind of mold would be nearly impossible for gifted women. Given that & the higher rates of suicide among gifted people in general & depression among women in particular, this seems really...bad. It's because of things like *this* that I'm guessing that far fewer gifted women would be found in protestant (esp evangelical) churches than men or than women in other faiths.

 

I think what people respond to negatively is intellectual arrogance. Humility goes a long way. Plus it is Biblical. ;)

 

I agree. The intellectual arrogance doesn't seem to (usually) come from gifted people, though. It seems (ime) to come from the arrogant, lol. But here's the question: if someone is intellectually gifted, & let's say they don't go around saying so or anything obnoxious like that--*still*--how would they be open about themselves, their opinions, questions, etc, & *not* come across as arrogant? Or...the other alternative is they ask deep questions but are met w/ surface-level basic-salvation type answers, & they shut up & give up.

 

I'm not sure I'm making sense...

[Marylou]

Q & A 21

 

Q. What is true faith?

A. True faith is

not only a knowledge and conviction

that everything God reveals in his Word is true;^1

it is also a deep-rooted assurance,^2

created in me by the Holy Spirit^3 through the gospel,^4

that, out of sheer grace earned for us by Christ,^5

not only others, but I too,^6

have had my sins forgiven,

have been made forever right with God,

and have been granted salvation.^7

^1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19

^2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16

^3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14

^4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21

^5 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10

^6 Gal. 2:20

^7 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10

 

True faith has nothing to do with intellect.

[JVA]

Well, dh is a pastor and spends hours in the Greek and Hebrew studying the Bible. He then repackages all that study into something that is understood by people across a spectrum of ages and intellectual abilities. He doesn't do it all by himself though - we've found that the Bible itself - esp. if you go verse by verse has multi-layers that speak to people - sometimes in ways that we hadn't anticipated.

 

I teach young people in our church. I encourage them to ask those deep questions. They were scared to ask anything at first. Now I get some really good questions that I have to do dig to find answers to.

 

I think our approach to the Bible and to God means though that we are only satisfied with a church that goes deeper than the surface when it comes to teaching. We've found though that there can be some negative trends in churches that delve deep into the doctrines of the Bible. Some of those trends are "knowing a lot about the Bible without knowing how to apply it to your life" and "knowing a lot about God without having a vibrant relationship with God." We're trying to counteract some of those trends in our small but intellectually minded church.

 

We'd LOVE to go to your church!

[Melinda in VT]

One thing to take into account is whether or not the gifted person was born into a faith community with a high cost of leaving. It's possible to stamp down doubts and questions for a long time because the price of facing up to those doubts is too great.

 

Growing up, I was warned many times "not to think my way out of the church."

 

The most intelligent people I know who have stayed in my religion of origin either don't apply their intellect to their religion (they compartmentalize) or they live with a lot of unresolved questions. They are willing to suspend disbelief about a lot of things.

[Aubrey]

Q & A 21

 

Q. What is true faith?

A. True faith is

not only a knowledge and conviction

that everything God reveals in his Word is true;^1

it is also a deep-rooted assurance,^2

created in me by the Holy Spirit^3 through the gospel,^4

that, out of sheer grace earned for us by Christ,^5

not only others, but I too,^6

have had my sins forgiven,

have been made forever right with God,

and have been granted salvation.^7

^1 John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19

^2 Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:14-16

^3 Matt. 16:15-17; John 3:5; Acts 16:14

^4 Rom. 1:16; 10:17; 1 Cor. 1:21

^5 Rom. 3:21-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10

^6 Gal. 2:20

^7 Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10

 

True faith has nothing to do with intellect.

 

Maybe. But many denominations *do* make it about intellect, by "strongly encouraging" things like SS. And how spiritually fulfilling can a faith devoid of reason BE? I mean...maybe faith comes via some other rte besides intellect, to a greater or lesser degree, but once one believes, THEN WHAT? Even if you have a deep faith, it can be agonizing to then sit through religious services, & impossible to discuss that problem w/out offending people.

[Ester Maria]

I agree. The intellectual arrogance doesn't seem to (usually) come from gifted people, though. It seems (ime) to come from the arrogant, lol. But here's the question: if someone is intellectually gifted, & let's say they don't go around saying so or anything obnoxious like that--*still*--how would they be open about themselves, their opinions, questions, etc, & *not* come across as arrogant? Or...the other alternative is they ask deep questions but are met w/ surface-level basic-salvation type answers, & they shut up & give up.

I must say I don't quite understand what's meant by the "intellectual arrogance". :confused:

 

I DO know, and have seen way too often in my life (especially in academia, amongst university freshmen, etc.), what's pseudo-intellectualism, but in my opinion that not only goes instantly recognized by most people with some knowledge from the field, but is also a fundamentally different thing than... whatever you seem to mean by intellectual arrogance. What would, then, be intellectual modesty, as an opposite concept?

[Marylou]

Maybe. But many denominations *do* make it about intellect, by "strongly encouraging" things like SS. And how spiritually fulfilling can a faith devoid of reason BE? I mean...maybe faith comes via some other rte besides intellect, to a greater or lesser degree, but once one believes, THEN WHAT? Even if you have a deep faith, it can be agonizing to then sit through religious services, & impossible to discuss that problem w/out offending people.

 

 

What is SS? Maybe I didn't read the whole thread; I thought I did. Sorry.

[Aubrey]

One thing to take into account is whether or not the gifted person was born into a faith community with a high cost of leaving. It's possible to stamp down doubts and questions for a long time because the price of facing up to those doubts is too great.

 

Growing up, I was warned many times "not to think my way out of the church."

 

The most intelligent people I know who have stayed in my religion of origin either don't apply their intellect to their religion (they compartmentalize) or they live with a lot of unresolved questions. They are willing to suspend disbelief about a lot of things.

 

I'm not necessarily talking about doubts--final conclusions & how you got there is really only one part of the question. If, for ex, a gifted person comes to the conclusion that there is no god, then he probably has no problem finding people w/ whom he can interact--most of his peers have come to the same conclusion, & he has no religious obligation to interact w/ any of them anyway. He'll be frustrated when he encounters people who believe something in a way that seems illogical to him (it's not the faith itself that's illogical, but the rte to that faith & the perpetuation of it on others can seem *unreasonable*)--BUT this is merely an unpleasant coincidence for him, like meeting a grocery checker who has something neg to say about hs'ing--not a big deal in the greater scheme of things.

 

Does that make sense? So then the other part of my question is, what about the gifted person who comes to a conclusion other than atheism? How does that work out for Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Catholics? I'm not asking if their intellect makes them question their faith but, esp for women, does their intellect alienate them w/in their faith? And for one who *still* believes, how does she deal w/ that?

[Gooblink]

I come from a family of high IQs, happy atheists and classic underachievers.

 

My thinking was that if there is a God, then nothing on earth is more important than seeking Him. I also decided early on that I couldn't let the behavior of others define Him. So, I embarked on a 20+ year and counting walk to discover who He is.

 

I'm a Christian. Christianity is the only religion that teaches that no matter how hard man works to be good, he can never be good enough to reconcile himself to God. I think history supports this...man is completely inept at prolonged, peaceful self-governance. Plus, every inclination of our hearts is toward self. Even among the best of us, there is greed and pride. It's pretty easy to measure good against each other, but can you measure good against God? We all fall short.

 

I'm non-denominational, basically non-dogmatic, continually seeking to learn more about my Creator. I believe there is much truth in any religion because they all have their roots with one God. No matter how subverted our understanding of Him, there is still one God.

 

ETA: In many ways I'm grateful for my atheistic upbringing. I was free of so much of the spiritual baggage I see carried by people who grew up in dogmatic homes and eventually fell away. Mine had to be an intellectual pursuit before it became one of the heart.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Gooblink

[Aubrey]

I must say I don't quite understand what's meant by the "intellectual arrogance". :confused:

 

I DO know, and have seen way too often in my life (especially in academia, amongst university freshmen, etc.), what's pseudo-intellectualism, but in my opinion that not only goes instantly recognized by most people with some knowledge from the field, but is also a fundamentally different thing than... whatever you seem to mean by intellectual arrogance. What would, then, be intellectual modesty, as an opposite concept?

 

Intellectual arrogance...could be just thinking you know more than the next guy. For ex, I've known people who use what they know...or their ability to think/communicate quickly...to humiliate others, to trap them w/ their own words, to mock their attempts at communication, to "win" arguments but not by fair wins, if that makes sense.

 

Intellectual modesty, I'd say, is the ability to phrase questions/opinions in a respectful way. Obviously no insults, but not leaning on one's education or intellect as "proof" of something. Because, obviously, it's not. I'd say it means really listening...that's hard to do, I'd think, if one is intellectually arrogant...one's head would be too full of one's own "right" ideas.

 

Maybe? :001_smile:

[Aubrey]

What is SS? Maybe I didn't read the whole thread; I thought I did. Sorry.

 

Sunday School

[Melinda in VT]

I'm not necessarily talking about doubts--final conclusions & how you got there is really only one part of the question. If, for ex, a gifted person comes to the conclusion that there is no god, then he probably has no problem finding people w/ whom he can interact--most of his peers have come to the same conclusion, & he has no religious obligation to interact w/ any of them anyway. He'll be frustrated when he encounters people who believe something in a way that seems illogical to him (it's not the faith itself that's illogical, but the rte to that faith & the perpetuation of it on others can seem *unreasonable*)--BUT this is merely an unpleasant coincidence for him, like meeting a grocery checker who has something neg to say about hs'ing--not a big deal in the greater scheme of things.

 

Does that make sense? So then the other part of my question is, what about the gifted person who comes to a conclusion other than atheism? How does that work out for Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Catholics? I'm not asking if their intellect makes them question their faith but, esp for women, does their intellect alienate them w/in their faith? And for one who *still* believes, how does she deal w/ that?

 

In my experience, talking with both women and men who have stayed in my denomination of origin, they keep pretty quiet in Sunday School and do not raise any intellectually challenging subjects. I know one woman who went so far as to keep certain books in her bedroom so people visiting from church wouldn't see them.

[catz]

I'm a Unitarian-Universalist, which I understand is the American religion with the highest average education level. (Not that education level = intelligence, of course.)

 

 

 

In the context of our church, I would say this be true. Our church is full of highly educated people who questioned their faith of origin or perhaps were just looking for a community of like minded people. There are many jokes about how Unitarians just talk ad nauseum and argue fine points that have made the rounds!

[Aubrey]

In my experience, talking with both women and men who have stayed in my denomination of origin, they keep pretty quiet in Sunday School and do not raise any intellectually challenging subjects. I know one woman who went so far as to keep certain books in her bedroom so people visiting from church wouldn't see them.

 

That seems highly unhealthy, whether we're talking about religion or anything else.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I am "gifted" and so is dh and our kids based on testing. We are "Dark Side" Presbyterian Christian.

 

I was raised Baptist, and my husband's family was Presbyterian. My parents were both gifted, my dad probably profoundly gifted, and so they sought out and read extensively about Christianity. My father is also bipolar, and he experienced a crisis of faith brought on, I think, by the frustration of dealing with people who didn't think through their actions logically and the hypocrisy of legalism.

 

I am happier in the church I have now than I have ever been. I feel like the people in the church are not threatened by my questioning doctrine, or church practices or questioning God. In the past, at other churches, I have felt like I had to not talk about the questions I have or the doubts that I struggle with out of fear of messing up someone's faith. If they don't struggle with a particular concern because they don't happen to have the tortuous thought process that I do, who am I to introduce that issue to them, you know? Also, if I didn't respect the intellectual capability of the church leaders, I wouldn't ask a question, because I knew they couldn't answer it.

 

As far a being a woman, in the church I am in now, my particular church doesn't have a woman pastor as the head pastor, but they are all about people doing what they do best. I think there are chauvinists in every church, but I have felt more valued as a intelligent human, rather than just "a woman", in this church than I ever have.

[creekland]

So then the other part of my question is, what about the gifted person who comes to a conclusion other than atheism? How does that work out for Muslims, Buddhists, Protestants, Catholics? I'm not asking if their intellect makes them question their faith but, esp for women, does their intellect alienate them w/in their faith? And for one who *still* believes, how does she deal w/ that?

 

I think my intellectualism could alienate me within my faith, but by being involved in a study group that cherishes the study and doesn't care that I, as a woman, make comments and can lead definitely helps. Hubby also shares deep conversations - deeper even than the study group delves into.

 

I have no desire to lead, as in pastor, a church. It's never been my desire. It's not my niche. I do enjoy teaching or sharing with others - whether it be math, science, or about the Bible. In my teaching/sharing, we consider many theories about different aspects and never take much "on faith" without reasoning. It's simply not my style. The conclusion everyone takes from the study is up to them based on which theory suits. I often will let folks know which way I lean - and why.

 

There are quite probably several churches where I wouldn't fit in, but I've no desire to attend those.

 

Human failings (esp in the church) or differences of belief (interpretations) are just part of our human-ness. I don't let any of it affect my relationship with God. I actually believe God put ambiguity into the Bible so people would talk about it more even if they come to different conclusions. That way, they are thinking about Him. If the Bible were as simple as our ABC's there'd be no need to dwell on it or ponder it at all. If, every time we prayed, we got our wish, that would reduce God to a vending machine. I don't think life was ever meant to be that way. I think it's much deeper.

 

Interestingly enough, when we took my oldest to his [Christian] college I thoroughly enjoyed the short conversations we had with some of the professors - most of whom had PhD's in their fields from secular U's. I think I'd really enjoy being in a small group study with them. I certainly didn't see where any of them had faith without reason that was well-thought out.

[Violet Crown]

My dh is in a field--philosophy--full of scarily intelligent people who spend a lot of time thinking about ethical, metaphysical, and often theological issues. He's made the interesting observation that there's plenty of seriously convinced atheists, Catholics, Calvinists, Jews, etc., in his field, but very few "spiritual but not religious" people or self-described agnostics. High intelligence and education, plus pressure to think precisely about those questions bearing on religious faith, tends to produce people with well-grounded convictions, but not necessarily to determine faith vs. non-belief.

[Melinda in VT]

That seems highly unhealthy, whether we're talking about religion or anything else.

 

I know one couple for whom this seems to be working really well. I considered it briefly, but quickly decided that for me that was an unhealthy approach and I would be much happier in a denomination that allowed me to be more transparent and open about what I thought and wondered.

 

And not to give false impressions, I don't know what my IQ is. I qualified as gifted in school, but I personally feel I am bright, but not scary smart. I consider the woman I mentioned above to be more intelligent than I am.

[HRAAB]

I'm not part of the group to which you directed your question, but I did want to answer. I always did well in school, but gifted or highly intelligent - no. In fact, there have been a few times I don't think I even belong on this board. :001_smile: However, I am a thinker and I believe I am reasonable.

 

I have been inside the church (Catholic) my entire life. I always 'assumed' I believed because frankly, everyone around me did. Somewhere in my 30's I decided I needed to know exactly what it was that I supposedly believed. This also coincided with making the decision to homeschool my children. I needed to be well educated in what I was attempting to teach them.

 

When I go about something, I go whole hog - tend towards compulsion in some things. This is the time that I stopped assuming I believed, and started to make a conscious choice to believe. What I thought was easy (belief) started to become very difficult. That is why I say I started to choose to believe. The more I read, discussed with knowledgeable people (I always sought out those who knew more than I so I could learn), thought, and PRAYED, the harder it became to believe. This is also the time I became the loudest and honestly, radical (with words, actions, etc.) with my belief. I was trying to convince myself. Others in my little group of friends occasionally would mention how much they respected my faith. What a total fraud I was. I wasn't a fraud in trying - that was absolutely sincere. When I talked, I was a big fraud. All those words were just an attempt to convince myself.

 

I'm at the point now where I have to stop. I was becoming depressed and it was affecting my family and marriage. No matter how loudly I say I believe, no matter that every morning I say 'I choose belief', the fact is I don't believe it. The story isn't believable and doesn't fit in with what I know of the world. I guess that's putting my intellect above God. The thing is, I don't know how to shut off my mind.

 

I won't say I've given up, but I've quit fighting and in doing so, I'm find some peace. I still talk to God daily since God is the only one who can make sense out of the Christian story, but so far He hasn't complied.

[In2why]

I have one child that fits the "gifted" profile. (I think everyone is gifted and hate the term but use it for the sake of discussion)

 

He is an athiest and I think his 'intellect' has a lot to do with his lack of belief. It isn't that believers are less intelligent, I think it is more that they are open to faith without proof. If he can't see it, he can't feel it. He operates from a place of facts and what can be proven. Faith doesn't work that way.

[Onceuponatime]

This. I've never known a gifted person who could successfully avoid these kinds of conversations (in school). To try to keep quiet when they have ideas is either impossible or spirit-crushing.

 

 

What about personality types? Being an introvert, born with an overwhelming sense of duty and responsibility to authority, has certainly produced tons of spirit-crushing guilt in my life. When I dare to find myself on a different path intellectually than my teachers, friends, and elders, I still want their good regard, so I tread lightly. I'm a gifted wimp. :D

 

Again, the people I've known could have tried this for a while, but it's a perfect ex of what I'm talking about--being put into this kind of mold would be nearly impossible for gifted women. Given that & the higher rates of suicide among gifted people in general & depression among women in particular, this seems really...bad. It's because of things like *this* that I'm guessing that far fewer gifted women would be found in protestant (esp evangelical) churches than men or than women in other faiths.

 

 

Depression-been there. Like another poster mentioned, circumstance are that my life would be totally turned upside down if I was to be completely open about my beliefs and make a point of them. It's not worth it. Not only that, in my experience, a lot of times people don't understand what I'm saying anyway. Not because they are not smart, but because they haven't bothered to educate themselves.

 

 

I agree. The intellectual arrogance doesn't seem to (usually) come from gifted people, though. It seems (ime) to come from the arrogant, lol. But here's the question: if someone is intellectually gifted, & let's say they don't go around saying so or anything obnoxious like that--*still*--how would they be open about themselves, their opinions, questions, etc, & *not* come across as arrogant? Or...the other alternative is they ask deep questions but are met w/ surface-level basic-salvation type answers, & they shut up & give up.

 

This. Being a SAHM, and not having a college degree, means that there are a lot of assumptions about my level of intellect and understanding. I

don't like creating conflict; it's easier to shut up.

 

 

 

I know it's not perfect, but it's the life I've found myself in and I have had to adapt.