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I don't want to be a Christian anymore.


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:grouphug: I think it is important to always question what is going on around us, and not just accept anything blindly.

 

I also think that many Christians focus on the Old Testament rules laid down and forget that when Jesus came, he gave us a new commandment, and that is to love one another.

John 13:34: I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. (NAB)

To me, that is a very telling statement. Jesus wants us to love everyone, and I believe that if we (we being Christians) did that, many of the strife and problems within various Churches would fall away. Jesus loved everyone, especially the sinner. He came for those of us in need of His Grace.

 

I do want to say that until I was baptised, I was happy with myself and who I was. It wasn't until after I joined the Church that I began to second guess myself and question beliefs I had held dear my whole life. It's taken me 4 years to realize that it shouldn't be like that, and now I'm on the search for a new Church that may fit me better.

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There are incontestable truths of Scripture that cannot be laid aside in order to fashion a spirituality of one's own choosing unless one is willing to drop the Christian label. Sadly, though the word Christian has come to include all manner of man-made religion and spirituality on both ends of the moral spectrum.

 

While I agree that many, if not most, of the items on your original list are secondary non-salvation issues, you have brought up some questions that are major doctrines of the faith such as Christ's claim to be the only way and the inspiration of Scripture. You really do need to work through those issues. The rest is just a distraction.

 

I think it is important for Christians to evaluate their belief system on the basis of Scripture. If our beliefs don't measure up to Scripture, then if we would continue to call ourselves Christ-followers, we are compelled to align ourselves with Scripture. The rest is secondary in nature and not worth fighting over, imo.

 

I hope you find the answers that you seek, Johanne.

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If that's what I had to be in order to be a Christian, I wouldn't want to be one, either. :glare: Amen to the "hijacking Jesus" comment.

I love God. I hate many, many, many of the things people attribute to him or claim in his name.

 

You're not alone. :grouphug:

 

I also think that many Christians focus on the Old Testament rules laid down and forget that when Jesus came, he gave us a new commandment, and that is to love one another.

John 13:34: I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. (NAB)

To me, that is a very telling statement. Jesus wants us to love everyone, and I believe that if we (we being Christians) did that, many of the strife and problems within various Churches would fall away. Jesus loved everyone, especially the sinner. He came for those of us in need of His Grace.

 

Thank you! It's troubling to me to see Jesus's message of loving everyone get lost under the old rules.

Edited by Veritaserum
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I'll not mince words. You seem bitter.
What a surprise - the Bitter card. I'm surprised it took until post #44 to show up.

 

Of course we all just *know* that bitterness discounts everything she has to say, because, well, she's bitter and that means she can't think properly. :tongue_smilie:

 

(And that's assuming she's bitter, something I didn't detect at all.)

Edited by Geek
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"I don't believe in the Holy Bible as direct, uninfluenced, unaltered, unshaped by human hands."

 

Neither do I. Neither do many churches. Many mainstream denominations believe that the bible is man's expression of what they saw and believe, and not infallible by any means. Have you looked into an Episcopal church? Female priests/bishops, gay priests/bishops, and a firm belief that God gave us the abilty to REASON, and that we should use it. In fact the church has been called a 3 legged stool, the three legs being scripture, tradition, and reason...with all three needed.

 

also, I believe the bible says none go to heaven except through Jesus, but it doesn't say HOW. I tend to believe that those who don't believe in any of it, when they die, meet Jesus, and he says "if you'd like to come to heaven with me, it's over here." Also, many churches, even the Roman Catholic, believe that there is holiness in all religions, even if they don't believe that the other religions have all of it right. I personally think that God is so far beyond our comprehension that we all have it fairly wrong....just in different ways. Kind of like the story of the three blind men and the elephant. And I call myself a Christian.

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Many Christians are getting sick of people hijacking Jesus, and what that love could really be.

 

I got in big trouble for saying this exact thing on another board. I'm sick to death of "christians" thinking they own Christ. He's not yours (you general); I can think of him/believe in him/worship him any way I want to. So there! ;)

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It's a slippery slope for anyone who starts elevating their own beliefs above God's word.
It's a slippery slope for anyone who starts elevating their book over another's book simply because it claims to be God's word.

 

Everyone's book claims to be God's word. It's a slippery slope to claim to be Right when all you have is a circular argument.

Edited by Geek
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I keep coming back to this thread, because it resonates with me so much. After growing up Catholic and then Baptist and gradually become profoundly disenchanted with both, I tried to forget about the whole thing when I went to college. And I couldn't. I became a sort of perpetual seeker--reading books about Zen Buddhism and going to the Unitarian church and occasionally thinking maybe I'd make a really good Jew. But I always wound up back at Christian churches, because what it came down to was that the part of Christianity that really worked for me was Jesus. It was a long, hard road to find a way to keep the Jesus and get rid of all the stuff I'd grown up with, but eventually I did it. Anne Lamott helped a lot. Hearing about the UCC helped. I don't think ANY of the things you've laid out would make you out of place at the UCC churches I've attended. My current theology is complicated and shifting but can really be boiled down to a few simple truisms of the most saccharine, Tao of Pooh, embarrassing to even say aloud sort. God is love and all that. Beyond that, I know what works for ME. I know what makes sense for ME. I can't answer for other people.

 

As I mentioned, I won't give up the word Christian because it would feel like a surrender to me. Like an acknowledgment that they are right and that they get to define the terms of debate. But I understand and respect those who do choose to reject the term.

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What a surprise - the Bitterness Card. I'm surprised it took until post #44 to show up.

 

Of course we all know that that bitterness discounts everything she has to say. :tongue_smilie:

 

(And that's assuming she's bitter, something I didn't detect at all.)

Yep, it's in the Fundamentalist Deck of Cards. Toss one out when someone's been hurt. Don't recognise the hurt, the pain, the wrong actions of others...just accuse the victim of being bitter.

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There are so many times I think Jesus would be appalled.

 

Our wonderful UU minister did an amazing sermon on this called "What would Jesus think (about what we've made him into)?" I've never heard so many amens! and preach its! outside an AME church. :D

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There are incontestable truths of Scripture that cannot be laid aside in order to fashion a spirituality of one's own choosing unless one is willing to drop the Christian label. Sadly, though the word Christian has come to include all manner of man-made religion and spirituality on both ends of the moral spectrum.

 

While I agree that many, if not most, of the items on your original list are secondary non-salvation issues, you have brought up some questions that are major doctrines of the faith such as Christ's claim to be the only way and the inspiration of Scripture. You really do need to work through those issues. The rest is just a distraction.

 

I think it is important for Christians to evaluate their belief system on the basis of Scripture. If our beliefs don't measure up to Scripture, then if we would continue to call ourselves Christ-followers, we are compelled to align ourselves with Scripture. The rest is secondary in nature and not worth fighting over, imo.

 

I hope you find the answers that you seek, Johanne.

 

 

Thank you for the kind hope. I don't need answers. I'm not really seeking. I am fine with me and God as I understand God. I think I have been for years, but have been hesitant to admit it.

 

For example, I can't evaluate on the basis of scripture in the way I know you'd suggest I do. From the article I posted earlier:

 

The trouble is, the Christian scriptures themselves, describing the nature of that earliest form of the faith, are already products of the development of a "Church," of a set of dogmas and practices that developed in the decades after Jesus walked the earth.

 

While I believe that the Holy Bible is *inspired* by God, I don't believe it has ended up in front of us without significant human, cultural, historical and political influence. I don't believe "God's Word" is literally God's word. Using the Bible as it's written and presented today would apply a standard I am not confident in.

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

Edited by Joanne
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What a surprise - the Bitter card. I'm surprised it took until post #44 to show up.

 

Of course we all just *know* that bitterness discounts everything she has to say, because, well, she's bitter and that means she can't think properly. :tongue_smilie:

 

(And that's assuming she's bitter, something I didn't detect at all.)

 

If it isnt the Bitter card, then it is the Confused or Angry cards. UGH!

 

Disagreeing with church dogma has nothing to do with being bitter, confused, angry, etc. We disagree cuz believing it violates our own personal basic human and spiritual nature.

 

Dogma is nothing more than a means of control. And has very little to do with any of the true teachings of Christ himself.

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Yep, it's in the Fundamentalist Deck of Cards. Toss one out when someone's been hurt. Don't recognise the hurt, the pain, the wrong actions of others...just accuse the victim of being bitter.
It's not just in the fundie deck of cards. I have had liberal Christians hurl that epithet at me (and others) only to seriously wonder why I thought it was a problematic way to have a discussion.
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I loved the book I just read called "SO, you don't want to go to church anymore. An unexpected journey." It was great!

 

This is an excellent book! Not what I was expecting at all when I started reading it. It really addressed a lot of what I believe about following Christ.

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BTW - Gay marriage isn't the only marriage looked down upon by churches. Legal unions between men and women are also not considered "true" marriages - I have great issue with that too.

 

Based upon church dogma, my own grandmother told me to my face that my son (who she absolutely ADORES) was a bastard and that she fears for his soul. I was hurt beyond words.

 

My husband and I have been together for 12 years, married for 9. My son was born after 4 years of marriage - but it was a legal union, not a church sanctioned marriage. According to church dogma, we are not truly married in the eyes of God and my child is a bastard.

 

Yet we have a strong, healthy, loving marriage and the most amazing committment to each other and to our son. Better than any of the church sanctioned marriages that I personally know.

 

It is the nature of the relationship and committment - not the location of the marriage or the credentials of the person signing the paperwork - that makes a great marriage.

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It's not just in the fundie deck of cards. I have had liberal Christians hurl that epithet at me (and others) only to seriously wonder why I thought it was a problematic way to have a discussion.

I've known some that are more liberal than I am toss such things about...they are was I call legalistically liberal (basically both sides have their extremists).

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Further to all this...

 

Christianity has come to be defined by what Christians think.

 

"I believe the Bible is literal and I'm Christian therefore a literal belief in the Bible is Christian."

 

"I know homosexuality is a sin and I'm Christian and therefore all Christians must know this."

 

By what Christians think, not Jesus.

 

Oh there's always the Bible to point to but in my mind it's almost idolatry. It's about what the Bible says, not Jesus. It's about the words in the Bible, not the Word, Jesus.

 

It's about a Christianity that defines itself by what it excludes rather then what it embraces.

 

And worse? We, the liberals, let it happen. We don't do what Joanne does which is point out exactly what modern Christianity looks like to many from the outside. We don't challenge those who peddle "Christian science" or call out our fellow Christians on their use of Christian. And when we do say something it's mostly to, again, exclude those we oppose. Rather then admit that yes, Christianity can produce some very nasty things, we say the bad stuff isn't Christian.

 

Take Fred Phelps. Owning him as a Christian would mean meeting him at every protest his group partakes in. It would mean countering his message and offering him love and community. But we turn our backs and and say he is not Christian as if that solves the problem and redeems Christianity in the eyes of all observers.

 

I'm going off on a tangent but there's stuff we just never approach in discussion whether it's Joann's frustrations or exclusive Christians or the, "oh, that's not Christianity," mind set. And if we never approach it, what exactly is the use of being Christian? Of Christianity?

 

Of Jesus?

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Where is Paul when we need him most?

 

I have been struggling with this for some time now. I believe that man wrote a lot of the Bible. There is just too much cultural stuff to believe otherwise. I also find it appalling that we rate sin, yet God doesn't. I find it disturbing that we focus on scriture that says do not lie with a man as you would a woman--yet not even think the "do not lie with a woman who is in the unclean part of her month" applies anymore. They are 3 verses apart. Don't all the rules apply??? Who chooses which to obey and if you write off one, why not the other? If one is just the "sign of the time" then did God write it, or man?

I did leave the church and I have made my way back again (I know this is what God wants for me) I did find my ralationship to suffer without (and with) fellowship.

It sounds like you have a great core belief that is unshakable. It is great that that is still intact. I think we are ready, nay thirsting for a revolution in the church. Perhaps we will all be a part of it. The first step it to raise questions, the second is to find answers for ourselves and be ready to defend them. I raise my glass to you!! You are asking questions, you aren't afraid to voice them.

 

Lara

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[

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

 

I say this all the time!!!!!

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While I believe that the Holy Bible is *inspired* by God, I don't believe it has ended up in front of us without significant human, cultural, historical and political influence. I don't believe "God's Word" is literally God's word. Using the Bible as it's written and presented today would apply a standard I am not confident in.

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

 

Agreed. God's Word is Jesus. The Bible is commentary on that. Our interpretation of the commentary is ours, not God's and any claims that I need to adhere to someone's interpretation is a claim I need to adhere to them.

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While I believe that the Holy Bible is *inspired* by God, I don't believe it has ended up in front of us without significant human, cultural, historical and political influence. I don't believe "God's Word" is literally God's word. Using the Bible as it's written and presented today would apply a standard I am not confident in.

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

 

:iagree: with this and all of your other points as well. I feel the same way you do, as do many others I've talked to about the topic

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It's a slippery slope for anyone who starts elevating their book over another's book simply because it claims to be God's word.

 

Everyone's book claims to be God's word. It's a slippery slope to claim to be Right when all you have is a circular argument.

 

I'll specify what I meant. It's a slippery slope when one (this can include 'churches') elevates their own beliefs over the Bible....the one true Word of God that was inspired by God Himself. When you start elevating your own ideas above God, it's a slippery slope.

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[

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

 

I say this all the time!!!!!

 

I always wonder why, if Jesus really wanted to share his thoughts/teachings, he didn't write them down himself.

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Agreed. God's Word is Jesus. The Bible is commentary on that. Our interpretation of the commentary is ours, not God's and any claims that I need to adhere to someone's interpretation is a claim I need to adhere to them.

 

Yes, this, especially the bold. Thanks.

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I've known some that are more liberal than I am toss such things about...they are was I call legalistically liberal (basically both sides have their extremists).

 

 

I've had the same experience. I was once an observer in a very heated argument about why an organist at a UU church not be allowed to play religious music at a Christmas service. In the end, they agreed it could be played, but the fear voiced by the new members (refugees from another denomination) was unbelievable. They were not (yet) able to see human connections, the give and take, that a (loving) shared faith can bring.

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There are incontestable truths of Scripture that cannot be laid aside in order to fashion a spirituality of one's own choosing unless one is willing to drop the Christian label. Sadly, though the word Christian has come to include all manner of man-made religion and spirituality on both ends of the moral spectrum.

 

While I agree that many, if not most, of the items on your original list are secondary non-salvation issues, you have brought up some questions that are major doctrines of the faith such as Christ's claim to be the only way and the inspiration of Scripture. You really do need to work through those issues. The rest is just a distraction.

 

I think it is important for Christians to evaluate their belief system on the basis of Scripture. If our beliefs don't measure up to Scripture, then if we would continue to call ourselves Christ-followers, we are compelled to align ourselves with Scripture. The rest is secondary in nature and not worth fighting over, imo.

 

I hope you find the answers that you seek, Johanne.

 

:iagree:

 

And, I would like to add, that it is Jesus who makes the exclusivity claim. I am not really addressing your post, Joanne, but rather the various statements made about Jesus in this thread. Hippie Jesus is a projection of one's own desires, not reality.

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I've had the same experience. I was once an observer in a very heated argument about why an organist at a UU church not be allowed to play religious music at a Christmas service. In the end, they agreed it could be played, but the fear voiced by the new members (refugees from another denomination) was unbelievable. They were not (yet) able to see human connections, the give and take, that a (loving) shared faith can bring.

 

The universality of community, basic loving-kindness, mindfullness, gratitude, and spiritual principles is a huge part of my recently admited spirituality.

 

When I dabbled a bit in Pagan spirituality, those who were Pagan as a response to having been hurt by Christians were every bit as dogmatic and difficult as the Christians represented in my lists.

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The universality of community, basic loving-kindness, mindfullness, gratitude, and spiritual principles is a huge part of my recently admited spirituality.

 

When I dabbled a bit in Pagan spirituality, those who were Pagan as a response to having been hurt by Christians were every bit as dogmatic and difficult as the Christians represented in my lists.

 

 

And not to make light, but maybe to bring a smile, I offer this: Don't put Macrobiotics (or many a newly- converted Vegan, for that matter) in a room with someone eating ice cream or cheese. It will be ugly.

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And not to make light, but maybe to bring a smile, I offer this: Don't put Macrobiotics (or many a newly- converted Vegan, for that matter) in a room with someone eating ice cream or cheese. It will be ugly.

It's called Cage Stage. Anyone newly converted with extreme zeal....it wears down after awhile. I was careful entering into the EO about it. I'm making my own journey and taking my own time.

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I'm glad to see that you're not being judgemental. :glare:

If the shoe doesn't fit, then you shouldn't be offended. And I never claimed to be perfect. It's just the one card that I would not throw in a hurting person's face.

Edited by mommaduck
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It's called Cage Stage. Anyone newly converted with extreme zeal....it wears down after awhile. I was careful entering into the EO about it. I'm making my own journey and taking my own time.

 

I live in a perpetual state of that!Cage Stage with Unschooling, choir, Girl Guides, and most recently, knitting. :D

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If the shoe fits, that's not my problem. If it doesn't, then you shouldn't be offended. And I never claimed to be perfect. It's just the one card that I would not throw in a hurting person's face.

 

I never said the shoe fits. I find many issues in churches that make me sick. I'm just saying I find it ironic how people claim that Christians are so judgemental and yet I have read several sweeping statements about Christians from the other side that are equally judgemental. Just ironic.

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I never said the shoe fits. I find many issues in churches that make me sick. I'm just saying I find it ironic how people claim that Christians are so judgemental and yet I have read several sweeping statements about Christians from the other side that are equally judgemental. Just ironic.

 

And which side are you ASSUMING that I'm on, dear?

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I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been discussed.

 

Is there any religion or faith that accepts homosexuality? I tried to google it, but all I got was page after page of how Christians view homosexuality. I believe the Muslim faith does not accept it either. I'm curious if anyone knows?

 

Thanks. :)

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I'm glad to see that you're not being judgemental. :glare:

 

I never said the shoe fits. I find many issues in churches that make me sick. I'm just saying I find it ironic how people claim that Christians are so judgemental and yet I have read several sweeping statements about Christians from the other side that are equally judgemental. Just ironic.

Nope, you were directing it at me as well. So I'm curious...

 

And by the way, the bolded part IS my point. The "bitter card" is ONE of those issues that make me sick. It's brandied about to divert attention away from real issues.

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Joanne, a lot of what is on your list has nothing to do with Christianity in the sense that it means follower of Christ. Legalism is in all churches to some degree. I gave up looking for the perfect church and we haven't gone to church in over a year. We do get together with friends for Sunday School though. We are studying the life of Christ. Anyway, most of the things on your list are matters of preference and what I prefer doesn't have to be what you prefer and I believe we can both still be christians.

 

I don't remember who said it, but I love this saying: God's teachers are not called to wield the word of God like a baseball bat. The sword of the spirit is to injure Satan, not the Body of Christ.

 

We are all human and sometimes we believe wrong things all our life and sometimes just for a season. Instead of judging those who practice a christianity you don't like and instead of saying you are no longer a christian instead pray for those who irritate you and keep living as you want others to live. Example is the best teacher.

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Nope, you were directing it at me as well. So I'm curious...

 

And by the way, the bolded part IS my point. The "bitter card" is ONE of those issues that make me sick. It's brandied about to divert attention away from real issues.

 

If I misjudged the intent of your quote, then my apologies. I had read through many sweeping accusations against 'Christians' and had just 'had it' by the time I read yours and hit the quote button. Again, my apologies if I mistook your quote.

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While I believe that the Holy Bible is *inspired* by God, I don't believe it has ended up in front of us without significant human, cultural, historical and political influence. I don't believe "God's Word" is literally God's word. Using the Bible as it's written and presented today would apply a standard I am not confident in.

 

To me, it's a bit like the telephone game for kids. What happened (or what was said) originally moves through kid's mouths, heard by selective ears, shaped by the child's expectations and experience, and emerges bearing slight or sometimes no relationship to the original.

You are exactly right. I'm not going to point out problems with each specific translation. If one wants to know, one can do the research.

 

I would point out that Jesus is the Word of God. And as someone already pointed out His ultimate word was "Love one anther as I have loved you." I truly believe we will have to answer to anything else.

 

I also think the Word of God trumps God's word (the Bible).

 

I'll specify what I meant. It's a slippery slope when one (this can include 'churches') elevates their own beliefs over the Bible....the one true Word of God that was inspired by God Himself. When you start elevating your own ideas above God, it's a slippery slope.

Over the Bible? Which translation is the ultimate authority? Which interpretation?

 

Personally I think it is a slippery slope when one elevates their beliefs over what Jesus told us to do.

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I would loved to have heard that service... It is hard to imagine if Jesus walked into ANY of our churches. What would he feel? I think a lot of hurt for what we have done to our souls....

Our wonderful UU minister did an amazing sermon on this called "What would Jesus think (about what we've made him into)?" I've never heard so many amens! and preach its! outside an AME church. :D
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If I misjudged the intent of your quote, then my apologies. I had read through many sweeping accusations against 'Christians' and had just 'had it' by the time I read yours and hit the quote button. Again, my apologies if I mistook your quote.

And mine as well. I just didn't understand. I'm a Christian that has been through the mill as well. But I'm still a Christian. I know that in Churches I agree with and don't agree with, there are the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm sorry if I came off as broad brushing.

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I'll specify what I meant. It's a slippery slope when one (this can include 'churches') elevates their own beliefs over the Bible....the one true Word of God that was inspired by God Himself. When you start elevating your own ideas above God, it's a slippery slope.
Thank you for the clarification, but I did realize that's what you meant. I stand by my words, though perhaps I should add my own clarification.

 

The bible is a book of words, translated multiple times into the vernacular du jour, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to say "these ideas are God's, not mine" by definition. Ten people can read the same words and get eleven different things out of it.

 

Who is right?

 

Look, I've been over (and over and over) this topic for years now and I see no reason to go on and on anymore. I'm done with Christianity. I'm done with all gods.

 

Here's an excellent quote for this occasion: "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen Roberts

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The United Methodist Church does and has gay/lesbian pastors. It's official motto is "Open Minds, Open Hearts, Open Doors".

 

It may be true that they have some gay pastors. However, the official position of the UMC does not allow openly gay pastors to be ordained.

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