Predestination or Free Will? Help me understand?

[Tabrett]

Please forgive me if I ramble......

 

I am undecided on what I believe. I would like to hear your thoughts and why you believe what you believe.

 

Free will-This Is my original position. Originally, I understood predestination or election to mean that God elected all to go to heaven, but allows us to choose (free will).

 

But then I read about God hardening people’s hearts (like pharaoh) so His purpose is served. I also notice that God CHOOSES His leaders. God chose Moses, David, Mary, Paul, the disciples and many more. Did these people have to option to say no? I can’t recall (correct me if I am wrong) of any `chosen’ saying no and not having repercussions. Jonah was put in a big fish for saying no. Judas turned, but it was foretold that he would; is that predestination?

 

If we are elected or predestined, why, oh why, do we need evangelize? Why does God command us to go and tell the world? What is the purpose? According to T.U.L.I.P. grace is irresistible. If it is irresistible, why evangelize? Won’t the elect go looking for God and how to achieve salvation? Are we supposed to go out and look for the elect or be ready to answer questions when a chosen person is sent to us because they can’t resist the pull God has put on their hearts?

 

Then there is the translation of Luke 2:14. KJV says “and on earth peace, good will toward men.†NAS says “Pease among men with whom He is pleased.†NIV says “peace to men on whom his favor rests.†NLT says “peace on earth to all whom God favors.†So….only the KJV extends the peace toward all men while the other translations extend the peace to the people God favors?

 

 

I also looked up the verse John 3:16 and looked at the Greek word for whosoever. It is “pav†it has two definitions:

1. individually
   1. 
      
   2. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
      

 

[*]collectively

1. some of all types
   

 

 

Definition 2 has me stumped. If we use the second definition, it could mean that some of all types of people can believe in Him and be saved. Meaning it is now for all races of people, not just the nation of Israel. This takes away the meaning it is for any individual that wants to accept.

 

I feel like I am digging myself in a hole. What do you believe and how do you justify why?

[milovany]

So many things can be interpreted so many different ways. It CAN be confusing! For our family, we go back before the reformation and the Roman Catholic/Orthodox schism to see what the early church taught and has believed for 2000 years. I am not eloquent, so will just post some articles about this issue. Here's an article from St. John of Damascus (+749 A.D.) on what the ancient church believed. Here are some words from St. John Chrysostom (+407 A.D.). Here is a page of articles from this perspective. Here is a podcast from Thomas Hopko.

Edited August 2, 2010 by milovaný

[Parrothead]

I think you are over thinking it. It is a matter of faith.

 

Yes, every one of the people you listed had the option of saying "no" to God.

 

Moses tried to say no, but God talked him into it.

 

Mary could have said something other than "I am the handmaiden of the lord. Let it be done unto me according to thy word."

 

Paul and Thomas had to be shown.

 

Peter had the option of not denying Jesus.

 

Every one of them had free will. Eve certainly had free will. Zacharias was struck mute because of his free will.

 

 

Translations are difficult. Some mean exactly what they say. Others are ever so slightly different. But that difference can throw the meaning of an entire sentence off. I don't put a whole lot of stock in the KJV of the Bible. It has beautiful language, but that language is not accurate. Simply look at the four quotes you posted. The KJV quote is radically different. People look at it and think it means everyone. The other three specify those with whom God is pleased.

 

I looked at a few passages with that speak of the elect. Everyone I looked at (it wasn't an exhaustive search) I did not get predestination as the meaning. Yes, God has chosen these and those for specific tasks, but these and those could have said no.

 

If a person is elected or predestined for Heaven, why would such a person go to church? Why would anyone go to church? Why would anyone bother with religion of any type? One is going to Heaven no matter what, or one is going to Hell no matter what. Why bother. There are too many other things to do on Sunday mornings.

 

So, no. I personally do not believe in predestination. I'm tired and can't think of diplomatic words to elaborate the why of my belief.

 

 

Oh, and if it makes any difference I'm coming from a Catholic perspective.

[Susan in TN]

Well, if you want more on the topic, there are lots of places to find info. Monergism.com has a ton of articles that might be helpful. It's also usually more helpful to read articles written by those who support the idea - on either side - because you are more likely to get a fair representation.

 

One way R.C. Sproul explains free will is this:

 

At creation, Adam and Eve had "free will". They were "free" to choose whatever they "willed", good or bad.

 

After the fall, man still has free will so to speak (free to do as they will), but the Bible tells us that the unregenerate heart will not choose righteousness and does not seek for God (Rom. 3). Their will is bent away from God. They can still do "good" things, but even those good things are tainted by sin. No one can be smart, wise, good, holy, humble...etc., enough to choose God. Dead people can't choose. Essentially, it takes the work of the Holy Spirit to regenerate a "dead" person's heart and give them the faith they need (for it is by grace you are saved by faith...) to believe and confess that Jesus is Lord.

 

The regenerate heart, because it is filled with the Holy Spirit, is again able to choose good or bad. Our wills are in a battle, so to speak, with the desires of our flesh and our desire to please God. This is the process of sanctification. Remember that passage in Romans 7, where Paul writes about doing what he doesn't want, and not doing what he does want?

 

In heaven there will be no sin to fight against, and we will have a "will" that only desires to glorify God.

 

Why do we evangelize? The Bible tells us to :). We don't know who is elect, so we must preach the gospel to everyone. Not with fear that our presentation must be effective, but we can joyfully minister to everyone knowing that God will do the work through our faithfulness. Those who know the beauty of the Gospel and the great loving kindness of our Savior love to share it because it is what we love.

 

FWIW, I was raised "free-will", in the sense you are talking about, and after college began attending a reformed church with a friend. The ideas behind TULIP were very distressing to me. But I decided that I simply had to believe what the Bible taught even if it was emotionally or otherwise distressing to me. Reading through the book of Romans several times with that mind helped me understand, truly, my desperate need for a Savior, even as a Christian. I can tell you that for those who understand and believe them, the doctrines of Grace are the most consistent, beautiful, and comforting teachings of the Bible.

 

Well, I've gone on long enough. Hope this helps.

[Mrs Mungo]

Have you read Good Omens? It's a funny fiction book, but it talks quite a bit about ineffable plans, predestination, free will and the like.

[RegGuheert]

If we are elected or predestined, why, oh why, do we need evangelize? Why does God command us to go and tell the world? What is the purpose? According to T.U.L.I.P. grace is irresistible. If it is irresistible, why evangelize? Won’t the elect go looking for God and how to achieve salvation? Are we supposed to go out and look for the elect or be ready to answer questions when a chosen person is sent to us because they can’t resist the pull God has put on their hearts?

When I asked a Calvinist whom I greatly respect why we need to evangelize, he said "Because God commands us to." I guess that's as good an answer as any!

 

None of the above are my main reasons for believing in free will. Here are my main reasons:

 

1) If man does not have free will, then sin comes from God, which the Bible clearly says is not the case.

2) If God chooses whom he calls and there is "effectual calling," then why does he not call everyone? IMO, not calling everyone in that case is somewhat cruel.

3) I believe that I have free will and I do not believe God is a deceiver.

 

Good luck with your conclusion in this area! It is a difficult topic and I can certainly see how people arrive at either belief.

[ScoutTN]

Yes. Predestination/election does not mean that people have no responsibility or are puppets. The Bible clearly does not teach that.

 

 

Two great books (readable, available and inexpensive) on this topic:

Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer.

Putting Amazing Back Into Grace by Michael Horton.

 

 

For weightier, more scholarly works check out:

The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther

The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards

[MorganClassicalPrep]

Well.. I don't have any specific Bible quotes to back me up, or any fancy links... but I'll just share what I believe anyway. :D

 

I believe in a mix of free will and predestination. I think there are certain things in our lives that we will reach, no matter what choices we make. When faced with a certain crossroad, we can always choose to go left instead of right. As humans, we always have a choice. BUT, even if we do go left, I think God will throw up another intersection where we can turn right, and get back to where he wanted us to be.

 

Of course, this isn't for every situation. Sometimes we do have complete free will. But if God wants you to be in a certain place at a certain time for a certain purpose, he'll get you there one way or another.

 

That's just me. No religious doctrine to back it up, just what I've come to believe on my own through reading the Bible, prayer, and thoughtful discussion with others.

[VaKim]

Just some Bible verses:

http://hisvesselofmercy.blogspot.com/2009/05/nt-bible-passages-on-gods-sovereignty.html

 

http://hisvesselofmercy.blogspot.com/2009/05/ot-passages-on-gods-sovereignty.html

[DawnM]

I will be reading this thread with interest.

 

I lean far more towards the free will category, but my Presbyterian friends have told me I am not truly saved because I haven't felt "total depravity"

meaning that God came and saved me and I didn't turn to God. They quote R.C. Spraul a lot at me! :D

 

I feel that Christ's death on the cross and the many verses referring to him dying for all man to be saved indicates that his will is for all to come to know him, so then, how can we refuse if His will is for all to be saved? That is where I believe the free will comes in. We have a choice to follow or not follow.

 

I realize I am probably only making sense to myself as I am not good at explaining.

 

The books Why I am not a Calvinist and Why I am not an Armenian were good reads. There are obviously theologians in BOTH camps and I believe both are saved if they have are Christ followers.

 

Dawn

[Harry Nelson in Charlotte]

This is one of those wonderful mysteries in scripture that require us to humbly acknowledge that we don't have all the answers (and in many cases are not even asking the question properly).

 

Is God one person or three? Is God wrathful or gracious? Are we predestined, as Ephesians 1:4 (and other verses) clearly states, or is there a well meant offer of the gospel to all people as John 3:16(and other verses) clearly states?

 

I have settled the issue in my own mind by resting on a "Molinist" position. This position was first articulated by Luis de Molina, a Spanish Jesuit priest who lived in the generations after the reformation. Current theologians who espouse this view are William Lane Craig (reasonablefaith.org) and Dr. Kenneth Keathley (Dean at Southeastern Seminary)

 

It is "monergistic" in the sense that it acknowledges that man, without God's help is utterly unable to even look a longing eye towards wanting God. Our sin nature is so corrupt that even the "choice" or "acceptance" is beyond our ability and on some level really a work in which we can boast. For if some accept, and others don't, then I have some virtue that they don't possess, and this is impossible.(Eph. 2:9)

 

Yet, I also acknowledge that there is a "well meant offer" of the gospel to all. The typical Calvinist/Reformed answer of "you evangelize, because you're commanded to" is OK, but there is this mental block of God asking us to do something for no purpose or no effect. Should we obey a command from God, even though something doesn't make sense to us? A thousand times Yes! But, God speaks throughout scripture of urging us to act in a way that is winsome for the purpose of leading folks to Him.(1 Peter 3:1,15), A Calvinist/Reformed position articulates that God is sovereign, and can save who he wishes and condemn who he wishes. All deserve wrath anyway. All true, but this unwittingly blemishes God's character in my opinion. John 3:16 seems a "well meant offer" of the gospel to be responded to. The character of much of the New Testament is appealing to the reader to believe in God - to respond to His grace.

 

This leaves us with giving all the credit for a salvation to God, and all the blame for rejection to man. Neither a typical "free will" stance, nor a more typical Calvinist/Reformed do either of these.

 

Two books I would highly recommend. One is more accessible, and that is "Chosen, but free" by Norm Geisler. The other is newer (and in my personal opinion, better, but very theologically technical - don't be scared or intimidated by that, though), and that is Salvation and Sovereignty by Dr. Kenneth Keathley.

------

At the end of the day, though, as you search, search with humility. As you discuss, discuss with humility. Some of the smartest theologians in the world speak with a sharpness and a measure of enmity that completely renders their argument void. Even if they understand it all, but have not love, they have nothing.(1 Cor. 13:2) And, unfortunately, during my long pursuit of the question, there's a whole lot of arguing going on.

 

I pray your pursuit of the question leads you closer to Jesus.

 

Harry

Edited August 3, 2010 by Harry Nelson in Charlotte
grammatical error

[RegGuheert]

Welcome, Harry! And thanks for that excellent post!

... "Chosen, but free" by Norm Geisler.

I greatly enjoyed I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist by Norm Geisler, so I will check out Chosen But Free.

 

Thanks again!

[Gooblink]

Daily, I'm amazed by how much there is to learn. I'd not heard - or, at least, don't recall having heard - of molinism...yet it sounds like what I've gleaned from my scripture reading.

 

You can read scores of theological commentary and they will all sound convincing and be backed up by Scripture. You can also read the Scripture for yourself, free of commentary. I approach Scripture with the following premises: God is justice, mercy, forgiveness and love. If what I'm reading doesn't match my definition of those attributes then I'm either attempting to judge God according to my own understanding or simply don't grasp the full import of the passage.

 

I do believe that every person will have the opportunity to choose God or reject Him, and it may or may not be on this side of death. I also believe God chooses to reveal Himself as He pleases, and some will go to the grave never accepting the gospel, but never really understanding who God is, either. Those folks are not necessarily ****ed to eternal separation from God, it was simply not part of God's purpose on earth to give them faith.

 

Is it in Jeremiah where God promises to repay the years the locusts have eaten? I believe that those who have suffered greatly on earth for so few years on the face of eternity will be comforted mightily in Heaven for eternity.

 

As for sharing the gospel: I believe the Kingdom of Heaven on earth is the presence of the Holy Spirit. He is the life-changing, transforming and peace filling person of God. We share the gospel to share peace and hope and the message that - yeah, there's suffering in this life. Awful pain. But God in the person of Jesus Christ came to us and lived it so that you can bear up as well. He allowed Himself to be humiliated and tortured so that you will know how much He loves you. He died and was resurrected and ascended to Heaven so that you will know He is God.

 

"I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes, first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: 'The righteousness will live by faith.' " Romans 1:16

[MamaSheep]

Please forgive me if I ramble......

 

I am undecided on what I believe. I would like to hear your thoughts and why you believe what you believe.

 

Free will-This Is my original position. Originally, I understood predestination or election to mean that God elected all to go to heaven, but allows us to choose (free will).

 

But then I read about God hardening people’s hearts (like pharaoh) so His purpose is served. I also notice that God CHOOSES His leaders. God chose Moses, David, Mary, Paul, the disciples and many more. Did these people have to option to say no? I can’t recall (correct me if I am wrong) of any `chosen’ saying no and not having repercussions. Jonah was put in a big fish for saying no. Judas turned, but it was foretold that he would; is that predestination?

 

If we are elected or predestined, why, oh why, do we need evangelize? Why does God command us to go and tell the world? What is the purpose? According to T.U.L.I.P. grace is irresistible. If it is irresistible, why evangelize? Won’t the elect go looking for God and how to achieve salvation? Are we supposed to go out and look for the elect or be ready to answer questions when a chosen person is sent to us because they can’t resist the pull God has put on their hearts?

 

Then there is the translation of Luke 2:14. KJV says “and on earth peace, good will toward men.†NAS says “Pease among men with whom He is pleased.†NIV says “peace to men on whom his favor rests.†NLT says “peace on earth to all whom God favors.†So….only the KJV extends the peace toward all men while the other translations extend the peace to the people God favors?

 

 

 

I also looked up the verse John 3:16 and looked at the Greek word for whosoever. It is “pav†it has two definitions:

1. individually
   1. 
      
   2. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
      

[*]collectively

1. some of all types
   

Definition 2 has me stumped. If we use the second definition, it could mean that some of all types of people can believe in Him and be saved. Meaning it is now for all races of people, not just the nation of Israel. This takes away the meaning it is for any individual that wants to accept.

 

I feel like I am digging myself in a hole. What do you believe and how do you justify why?

 

 

I would say I believe in "foreordination" rather than "predestination" in the sense that it is often discussed. That is to say, I believe that God has chosen people to fill certain specific roles, AND I believe that God has chosen in advance that all people should be eligible for salvation (their salvation is not pre-determined, but their eligibility for salvation is). But I also believe that God, as sovereign, chooses to allow us a choice in whether we will receive the blessings he has laid out for us in advance. I believe God has laid out a plan in advance, and I also believe that we are allowed to choose whether we fill the roles He has set out for us or not. I also believe that a decision on our part will not derail God's overall plan. And I believe that God's knowledge of what will happen (foreknowledge, prophecy) doesn't necessarily mean that God MAKES it happen. To me it is more an indication that God knows us all really well, and that God, being an "eternal" being, probably does not operate "inside" time the way we do.

 

There are a couple of places the Bible clearly states that we are to make a choice, and any number of places where choice is implied. Here's one of the more clear passages (Moses speaking for God to the Israelites):

 

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: " (Deut. 30:19)

 

I don't believe God would tell us to choose if we were not actually capable of making a choice. And, in fact, I believe God allows us to make the wrong choice. Here's one that tells us people chose wrongly:

 

"3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." (Isaiah 66:3-4, emphasis mine)

 

 

If they could "choose" their own ways, in which the Lord delighted not, then it only stands to reason that they could have chosen the Lord's ways instead. If they couldn't go either way, then it's not really a "choice", and right here God tells me that it IS, in fact, a choice that they made.

 

The Bible also shows that we have our own will:

 

"If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord. " (Leviticus 1:3 -emphasis is mine)

 

If we have no true will of our own, why would God command us to give an offering out of a will we do not have? We must have our "own will" if God commands us to use it. Otherwise it would be like commanding us to fly with our own wings.

 

But just because God allows us to make choices, that doesn't mean God doesn't ALSO make choices. Clearly He does. Also, the fact that God allows us to make choices doesn't mean He can't, or doesn't, take measures to "encourage" us to make the right choices. And just because we get to choose our own actions in a given circumstance does not mean that there are not consquences to those choices, and it doesn't mean we get to choose the consequences.

 

You gave Jonah as one example. You pointed out that Jonah was put in a big fish for saying no. But the fact is, he was ABLE to say no in the first place. The fish was part of the consequences--or maybe part of the "encouragement in the right direction" AFTER he made a choice. God gave him a consequence, and He gave him another opportunity to make the right choice--even took him closer to the "right" destination. But God did not take over Jonah's body, march him into Nineveh, and force the words out of his mouth. Jonah still had a choice. In my opinion. So yes, I think God nudges us in the right direction, and sometimes even gives us a shove, but I don't think He FORCES us to do what He wants us to do. With Judas, I think God knew the choice he would make beforehand. I think its even possible that Judas was chosen as an apostle because God knew what kind of choices Judas would make. I don't think God made the choice FOR Judas.

[Erica in PA]

 

If we are elected or predestined, why, oh why, do we need evangelize? Why does God command us to go and tell the world? What is the purpose? According to T.U.L.I.P. grace is irresistible. If it is irresistible, why evangelize? Won’t the elect go looking for God and how to achieve salvation? Are we supposed to go out and look for the elect or be ready to answer questions when a chosen person is sent to us because they can’t resist the pull God has put on their hearts?

 

 

I used to understand it the first way you described, that everyone has free will to choose or reject God. However, over the years I have encountered too many verses that very clearly state that God is the one who gives the ability to believe to whom He chooses. Acts 13:48 is one that hit me most directly: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." There are many, many others throughout the NT.

 

As far as your question above goes, I think it's a total fallacy to believe that belief in election negates the need for evangelism (one that I heard often in my Baptist days). There is no contradiction between the two. God chooses who will believe, but the Bible is clear that the way those people believe is by hearing the Word of God preached!! Romans 10:13-14 says, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

 

That is the method by which God brings His elect to Himself. So we preach the Gospel, not knowing who the elect are, but knowing that God will use our witness to bring faith to those He is drawing.

 

What it basically comes down to for me, is that in our sinfulness, we are not able to choose God-- we will only choose what is evil, unless God intervenes and gives us the ability to choose Him instead. Why he chooses to intervene for some and not everyone is something I don't totally understand, but as far as my understanding goes, this is what His Word teaches, so I must accept that and trust the Lord that His plan is best.

[Kathleen in VA]

I found this website yesterday when there was conversation about this topic on the K8 board. It seems to explain the predesitination/election viewpoint fairly well.

 

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=23852

 

I also suggest you read John 10, Romans 8 and 9, as well as Ephesians 1. Be like a Berean. Study, study, study the scripture. Pray, pray and pray some more. Ask the Lord to lead you and guide you into His truth.