Not following the pack (cc. if it matters)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Of course by homeschooling we are not following the pack in schooling method and location. But I've found that even within the church we are not following the pack. We just came back from a wonderful praise night that we participate in quarterly. We had a potluck and time to talk and play for two whole hours and then we all gathered to sing choruses, contemporary songs and hymns for another hour and a half. It is a very special time of worship. But of the ten kids who were there, my two were the only ones required to come in and sing with us. The other kids spent 99% of the time out playing (they came in a couple of times to ask their moms for something).

 

Now I don't have a problem with their parents having different standards. And I feel fairly comfortable in why we have the standards we have : we think that 2 hours is plenty for getting to socialize with friends, the purpose we get together is to worship and we think that even our kids should do that, we think that including them as kids will hopefully make them more inclined to want to make spiritual things a priority as they get to a place where they choose their activities. I think if all of the kids came in, my kids would have no problem with our choices for them, but because they are the only ones who do, they do feel left out of a good deal of play.

 

I talked to the kids tonight and listened to how they feel. Ds13 likes the singing but did feel a bit tugged to go out with the other kids. Dd8 felt more strongly that they were the odd men out. I explained to them our priorities in this and the reasons for our standards.

 

I don't want to start to follow the pack because it is easier or makes my kids feel "better". But at the same time I don't want to breed resentment in them against church or spiritual things. I also recognize though that their internal attitudes and choices will determine whether they see this as a blessing in their life or as a straight jacket. Any thoughts or wisdom for me?

[Rosie_0801]

Could it be as simple as expansively gesturing and saying "Let's go call the kids in, shall we!" and moving off in their direction as though you expect the other parents to follow?

 

Rosie

[FriedClams]

We face the *exact* same thing (except that we meet twice a month). Our kids are the only younger ones that actually come, sit, sing and participate. It's been weird but the other families with smaller kids that didn't require attention/participation have mostly left the fellowship. It's really sad and I feel badly for them since they are missing out on a really rich experience. We also go to a small fellowship for church with no nursery/Sunday School/etc. so our kids are used to sitting and trying their best to pay attention. My kids are normal, active kids (7 and 9) and they are just used to it now.

 

Could it be as simple as expansively gesturing and saying "Let's go call the kids in, shall we!" and moving off in their direction as though you expect the other parents to follow?

 

In our fellowship that would come across as me trying to parent where I should not and it would be rude. Maybe in another group it would be perfect, but it would backfire for us.

[anissa]

I would have brought my dc in also. No way would I let peer pressure play too big a role in this situation. If this is a regular event at your church, your continued example could affect other parents. I would discuss it over with my dc before getting to church so as to avoid any unpleasant scenes.:001_huh:

[Tess in the Burbs]

My kids have felt this way before at church/religious events we attend. I just keep explaining that we are there to worship and not play. Play time is "_____". No, it doesn't help them get over it, but we have stuck to our guns about it all. I really try to explain that it's ok to be different and not fit in with the crowd. And my son is now at the point he stays with us in the service at church by choice and doesn't go to any kid worship services b/c he said all they do is play ;-)

[Jan in SC]

I don't think I would have made my children come to that type of service unless they had most of the music memorized. They would love singing, but only one of mine reads words and music well enough to follow along at a rapid pace.

 

If it had been a service that included Eucharist, their presence would have been required.(Any service we would attend would include Eucharist.)

 

My dh is a PK and he wasn't expected to be involved in every service, especially at 8. However, by 13 he and his sister would have been playing guitar and helping lead music. (Not contemporary, though, just hymns or "campy" songs written from scripture.)

[FaithManor]

We've always been the odd ducks....never used the church nursery (which I consider to be a serious germ ridden bacterial lab), kept them in church with us instead of sending them to children's church, no Sunday School classes, classically homeschool which is considered just plain WEIRD around here, etc.

 

My kids usually end up helping out at VBS and are shocked at how much "not paying attention" goes on there. I think its because most kids are trained from an early age that at church, they don't have to participate because its for the adults or that children's classes are nothing more than glorified babysitiing and fun time. Then boom, their twelve or thirteen and expected to participate. Instead, many churches find that they have a large number of youth that spend a lot of time staring at the floor and passing notes during service.

 

Faith

[Mama Geek]

We've always been the odd ducks....never used the church nursery (which I consider to be a serious germ ridden bacterial lab), kept them in church with us instead of sending them to children's church, no Sunday School classes, classically homeschool which is considered just plain WEIRD around here, etc.

 

I have a new mom question here. I have the same opinion that children should be in church and not in the nursery or children's church. I would also prefer to have my kids in an adult Sunday School class with me rather than in one for their age. Now realizing that my dd is 6 weeks old, how would you handle the church service when she starts to cry? The church we are going to has a crying room where you can still see the service and that is OK, I used this yesterday for the whole service and thought it was reasonable because my husband was out of town so I was on my own.

 

I don't feel right staying in the church while she is crying, but I would like for both of us to be able to be part of the service as much as possible.

[Old Dominion Heather]

I think that is good manners to take out a crying child. As a mom myself, that is one sound I just can't hear without getting upset. I want to go find the child and offer to take them outside myself. Something about the sound of a baby crying is just so wrenching!

 

We keep our babies with us, but use the nursery from about the time they start walking until they are about 3 and old enough to follow reasonable expectations to sit. Still though I've taken my youngest out for a stern talk/hug a few times this year when he has not wanted to cooperate.

[FaithManor]

We always took them out if they were crying. I like the cry room idea. Our church doesn't have one but they pipe the sound out into the hallway so parents can stand outside the doors and actually see in through the windows but then hear everything. I've helped the pastor's wife with her new little one and it's not uncommon for moms or dads to be in the hall singing right along with the service. Our ushers are also very helpful people.

 

The key is finding a family oriented church. An awful lot of churches think they are family oriented because they have children's classes constantly and parents never actually parent their children once they arrive at church. Everything is age segregated. That's not family friendly, that's adult friendly. We left a church because it was absolutely TABOO (as in, the senior pastor had signs posted on the doors to the auditorium/sanctuary that said, "No children under ten allowed in service!" We have friends that left their church because they were asked to leave a Sunday School class for daring to bring their four week old infant with them to class. Apparently, the other adults were absolutely anti-children and did not want a baby in the room in case it cried.

 

Definitely go to the cry room if necessary. Believe me, they grow up so quickly. This time will pass by in practically a blink of the eye. But, your child will learn early on, the importance of being in the service and paying attention.

 

Faith

[KellyinPA]

We are sort of the odd ones out too. The kids sit with us during the service (instead of "jr" church). We've opted out of the Wednesday night program for kids. My kids don't question it, it's just the way we roll;)

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I guess I'm the odd one out here! LOL

 

I used the nursery, but, I sat in there with my dc. I had no issues with them being in children's ministry, but, I was a volunteer in there so I knew what was going on and that it was something good for my dc. When I had a question about what was being taught or something, I would ask it to the appropriate person and see what I could do to help out if help was needed.

 

I've always had my dc in the worship time. The churches we have attended have the children in during worship and only dismiss them during the preaching. Special services have always been something that they attend with us and we do together. They have never had a problem sitting and participating and have not felt that we have kept them separate from their peers.

 

We have family worship time at home. It works well for us. I love our family worship time and I love our church time. Both are equally important for us. The churches we have attended (all 3 of them!) have been very family friendly in that it's always optional if you want to send your dc to children's ministry or if you want to use the nursery/crying room. It's out of courtesy that I did take out crying/crabby youngsters to my fellow worshipers and the pastor. Noone ever made me feel as thought I HAD to. It was our choice.

 

I think it's important for my dc to learn to worship with their peers. If it was just another play time, we wouldn't participate. There is actual teaching going on. Anyway, that's just been our experience.

[ChemMommy]

In the summer, there is no Sunday School program for kids. So, our kids go to the adult Bible study (and love it). But, we are the only people who bring kids to the class. We just called it "Family Bible Study" time and ignored the oddity of them being there. Now, after 4 years, they are completely accepted and welcomed. And they love it! They love it better than regular kiddie classes.

 

Now that I'm not the Sunday School Superintendent (woohoo!!), I will likely be pulling one of mine out of her regular classes. The teacher couldn't control the group and my child sat off to the side while 3 boys went bananas for the entire hour. The class was a joke. We'll see if this year goes better.

 

My kids sit in church, participate and volunteer as necessary, serve at church suppers and funerals, etc. I'd like to think that we can be an example of what kids CAN do in church and don't mind not following the crowd. But, I'm a bit of a curmudgeon--I'm going to teach my kids to do the right thing even if it isn't the popular thing.

 

Personally, after two hours of social time, I would have expected my kids to attend the worship service cheerfully and to worship.

 

I like another person's suggestion that you lead the other parents into bringing the kids in--kids love music and it's a great way to get the gospel into their hearts.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Good to hear from so many other odd ducks! :lol:

 

What I didn't really communicate well is that this is not a formal service but is a home ministry/outreach done by a young couple in their home. They invite as many as 50 people from all different churches and backgrounds to come and sing and fellowship. My dh does give a little message as part of the night at their request - but no Eucharist.

 

Ironically (or perhaps not?) half of the children who played all evening were the children of other pastors. All the kids (and the parents too) hear the hostess ring a bell calling us in to our music time of the evening. Then they hear me go to the door and call my children in. Last time, one of the other pastor's wives did ask her two (who are exactly my kids ages) to come in. But the son slouched in the chair and spent his time texting and distracting my ds. I finally got up quietly and sat between them. The other boy was not happy with me even though I never said anything directly to him or stopped his behavior.

 

Because these are kids who go to other churches on Sunday, we only see them at these praise nights about 4x a year. So it isn't constant peer pressure.

 

I guess I'll just have to hope that my kids start to see on their own that these other families have messed up priorities. It actually makes me sad. I sort of think that one of these days these kids are just going to fall away from the church and the moms will be so surprised and wonder why. But as soon as I think that, I wonder if my kids will be so glad to get away from the strictures we've put on them (even though we try hard to make things enjoyable and to explain the rationale behind our choices) that they will run far away from the church when they have a chance. So no stones here.

[Mynyel]

I wouldn't have forced my kids in. Honestly? Just singing is boring for kids. Are they really getting the whole worship thing that the adults are doing? Does it really sink in that that are worshiping the Lord?

 

Maybe the 13yo but the younger? Nah. My dd12 would understand somewhat but my ds8 would not. He would be bored out of his mind and not be paying attention anyway.

 

I also have strong feelings anyway. I was forced to go to church (a fire an brimstone all are doomed to a fiery hell type) when I was a child. I hated it, hated it. When I stopped going the church members came to my house several time over a period of weeks in order to bring me "back into the fold". They finally stopped after I blasted Guns N Roses one day when I saw them coming.

 

That being said, I know all churches aren't that way but I won't ever force my children to do something that is 99% adults, especially if they know that there are kids outside playing that they could be playing with. That is a certain kind of torture for kids! It seems counter intuitive to me.

[runmiarun]

My kids have felt this way before at church/religious events we attend. I just keep explaining that we are there to worship and not play. Play time is "_____". No, it doesn't help them get over it, but we have stuck to our guns about it all. I really try to explain that it's ok to be different and not fit in with the crowd. And my son is now at the point he stays with us in the service at church by choice and doesn't go to any kid worship services b/c he said all they do is play ;-)

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Same here. Worship time is for worship, not play. In reality, it's usually a very small (smaller than I would like, unfortunately) portion out of the week of everything else we do.

[WTMCassandra]

Jean, I'm coming late to this conversation, but my children would SO have been required to be in the worship time! I mean, there is a separate play time as well! I'm right with you on this one. We worship together, period, and we made sure we joined a church where this is welcomed.

[Melinda in VT]

I wouldn't have forced my kids in. Honestly? Just singing is boring for kids. Are they really getting the whole worship thing that the adults are doing? Does it really sink in that that are worshiping the Lord?

 

 

I disagree that singing is boring for kids. In my experience, both as a child in church and as a mother of kids in church, the music is generally one of the first parts of the service that kids can relate to. And they get to participate.

 

Now, kids are as individual as the rest of us, so I can certainly believe that the singing would be boring for some kids. But it's not universal, and I would guess not even true of the majority of kids.

[KrissiK]

Wow, no wisdom, just sympathy because we're in the same type of situation. I don't want to cause a debate here, but we do believe in sending our kids to age appropriate Sunday School classes and Children's CHurch and we run a good Wednesday night program, but most of the parents in our church refuse to put their children in the Christian Ed programs, and it's not for any of the reasons stated in previous posts. These parents don't participate themselves in Sunday School and soccer and other extra-curricular activities take the place of Wed. night activities. I also know from the mouths of these children that devotions do not take place in the home. Our children are in church, they are expected to participate in the service before they go to Jr. Church and if soccer practice falls on a Wed. night, well, they miss practice. It's difficult when you have different standards than other Christian parents, and when that becomes obvious, then it's like you're not only criticizing other parents' parenting, but you're criticizing their faith.

 

I don't want to start to follow the pack because it is easier or makes my kids feel "better". But at the same time I don't want to breed resentment in them against church or spiritual things. I also recognize though that their internal attitudes and choices will determine whether they see this as a blessing in their life or as a straight jacket. Any thoughts or wisdom for me?

 

This is something that bothers me so much regarding my oldest child. He hates church. (he's 7, btw) He hates it because we require him to participate, sing when there's songs and not just sit there, tuned out, drawing pictures. The thing is, children are so different. The same "requirements" can draw one child closer to the Lord and can completely alienate another.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I wouldn't have forced my kids in. Honestly? Just singing is boring for kids. Are they really getting the whole worship thing that the adults are doing? Does it really sink in that that are worshiping the Lord?

 

Maybe the 13yo but the younger? Nah. My dd12 would understand somewhat but my ds8 would not. He would be bored out of his mind and not be paying attention anyway.

 

I also have strong feelings anyway. I was forced to go to church (a fire an brimstone all are doomed to a fiery hell type) when I was a child. I hated it, hated it. When I stopped going the church members came to my house several time over a period of weeks in order to bring me "back into the fold". They finally stopped after I blasted Guns N Roses one day when I saw them coming.

 

That being said, I know all churches aren't that way but I won't ever force my children to do something that is 99% adults, especially if they know that there are kids outside playing that they could be playing with. That is a certain kind of torture for kids! It seems counter intuitive to me.

 

I'm glad you responded because this is the scenario that I'm afraid of. In our case though, my kids do like to "just" sing. The pull of friends is strong though.

[Catwoman]

Of course by homeschooling we are not following the pack in schooling method and location. But I've found that even within the church we are not following the pack. We just came back from a wonderful praise night that we participate in quarterly. We had a potluck and time to talk and play for two whole hours and then we all gathered to sing choruses, contemporary songs and hymns for another hour and a half. It is a very special time of worship. But of the ten kids who were there, my two were the only ones required to come in and sing with us. The other kids spent 99% of the time out playing (they came in a couple of times to ask their moms for something).

 

Now I don't have a problem with their parents having different standards. And I feel fairly comfortable in why we have the standards we have : we think that 2 hours is plenty for getting to socialize with friends, the purpose we get together is to worship and we think that even our kids should do that, we think that including them as kids will hopefully make them more inclined to want to make spiritual things a priority as they get to a place where they choose their activities. I think if all of the kids came in, my kids would have no problem with our choices for them, but because they are the only ones who do, they do feel left out of a good deal of play.

 

I talked to the kids tonight and listened to how they feel. Ds13 likes the singing but did feel a bit tugged to go out with the other kids. Dd8 felt more strongly that they were the odd men out. I explained to them our priorities in this and the reasons for our standards.

 

I don't want to start to follow the pack because it is easier or makes my kids feel "better". But at the same time I don't want to breed resentment in them against church or spiritual things. I also recognize though that their internal attitudes and choices will determine whether they see this as a blessing in their life or as a straight jacket. Any thoughts or wisdom for me?

 

Personally, I think you did the right thing, Jean. You needed to do what was right for your own family; I just wish a few of the other parents had called their kids inside, too.

 

This was a quarterly event, not a nightly occurrence, so I don't think you were at all unreasonable about calling your kids in for the singing. They'd already had time to socialize, so it's not like you didn't let them have any fun with the other children, and I'm sure that when you called them in, you assumed that at least some of the other parents would do the same, and their kids would join you as well. The evening was intended as a special worship night, not as a casual potluck free-for-all, and I have to say that I think the other parents missed out on a nice family experience by letting their kids stay outside.

 

Perhaps before the next event, you could speak with the organizer and ask specifically about what the children should be doing during the singing portion of the evening. If it sounds like no one cares if the kids participate, at least you'll be able to decide in advance how you want to handle the situation, and you can discuss it with your kids, as well.

 

I don't think there will be any long-term backlash from having your kids participate in some extra religious activities. I think it's all about setting a good example on a daily basis, and I'm sure you're already doing that.

 

Cat

[Jean in Newcastle]

Personally, I think you did the right thing, Jean. You needed to do what was right for your own family; I just wish a few of the other parents had called their kids inside, too.

 

This was a quarterly event, not a nightly occurrence, so I don't think you were at all unreasonable about calling your kids in for the singing. They'd already had time to socialize, so it's not like you didn't let them have any fun with the other children, and I'm sure that when you called them in, you assumed that at least some of the other parents would do the same, and their kids would join you as well. The evening was intended as a special worship night, not as a casual potluck free-for-all, and I have to say that I think the other parents missed out on a nice family experience by letting their kids stay outside.

 

Perhaps before the next event, you could speak with the organizer and ask specifically about what the children should be doing during the singing portion of the evening. If it sounds like no one cares if the kids participate, at least you'll be able to decide in advance how you want to handle the situation, and you can discuss it with your kids, as well.

 

I don't think there will be any long-term backlash from having your kids participate in some extra religious activities. I think it's all about setting a good example on a daily basis, and I'm sure you're already doing that.

 

Cat

 

Thanks, Cat. My kids have already decided on their own that they want to have a relationship with God. I think that both adults and older kids have to decide what the priorities are in their lives. My dh and I have decided that God (and things that facilitate us knowing Him) have a priority. We want the kids to hopefully have that same priority. At the same time, we have a secondary priority to friends who can encourage us in our walk with God - thus the long potluck/social time. The praise night itself is probably geared most to young adults (20-somethings) but there is plenty to appeal to even younger people and those of us "old" folks who are young at heart.

[Liz CA]

I'm glad you responded because this is the scenario that I'm afraid of. In our case though, my kids do like to "just" sing. The pull of friends is strong though.

 

My son would have probably been outside as well but for different reasons. He was an only child and I would have offered him the opportunity to play whenever I could because we live very remote. At the age of your dc, my ds didn't care much for singing.

Had he had siblings and was an enthusiastic singer, I may have invited him to stay or may have even strongly suggested all my stay and participate.

 

It's a little difficult for me to properly evaluate this because I am not sure how much this singing hour is an integral part of your worship. If it is why are the other kids outside or is it meant primarily for adults or older children?

 

Good for you that you followed your principles and did what felt right to you.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

It's a little difficult for me to properly evaluate this because I am not sure how much this singing hour is an integral part of your worship. If it is why are the other kids outside or is it meant primarily for adults or older children?

 

 

This is not part of a formal church. It is an integral part of my worship because we get nothing like that in our formal church and at present do not have the means to influence that. The host and hostess ( a young married couple ) invite people to their house but do not put rules on how people should use the time, although we are invited to a praise night and song books are passed out, and she rings a bell to announce the start of singing etc. Many of the adults have told me that they appreciate that our kids participate in the intent of the evening (the singing) but no one wants to tell other parents what to do. Including me. But that does mean that our kids are the odd ones out.