Doug Wilson, Veritas Press and Omnibus connection questions

[mhg]

Ok. I know Douglas Wilson started a classical church and school (Logos) in Moscow, Idaho. I know that Veritas Press is located in Lancaster, PA.

Yet...I see that Douglas Wilson has written/edited many of VERITAS PRESS materials (per catalog/website). He's one of the editors of the Omnibus curricula.

 

So....my question. How much is his personal beliefs/theology incorporated into the curricula if any? I don't share his (relatively) newfound beliefs and am concerned that if I go the VP route that their will be some DougWilsonian theology coming through it. Any thoughts on this?

[UnPrairieMuffin]

Not so much in the elementary years, I would say. You have a hodge podge of material that VP uses, some published by them (book guides) and others like Shurley Grammar and Saxon Math that are staples of home schoolers. I have used their history cards and various other things, but I don't think it's so into Wilson. Most people have issues with VP b/c of their Reformed emphasis on things. At least those are the complaints I've heard.

 

I think you'd be okay using it, but it's not the only catalog out there. Have you gotten a Rainbow Resource catalog yet? That will make your brain spin and fire come out of your mouth.

[holdoll]

So....my question. How much is his personal beliefs/theology incorporated into the curricula if any? I don't share his (relatively) newfound beliefs and am concerned that if I go the VP route that their will be some DougWilsonian theology coming through it. Any thoughts on this?

 

I'm not sure what Doug Wilson's new found beliefs are. However I can tell you I've used Veritas Press materials for years now and I would say they are decidedly in the camp of Reformed Theology. I wouldn't consider that "new found".

 

We are Messianic and my daughter learned a lot in the on-line Omnibus II class that Veritas Press offers. There were many debates in that class over theology. My dh and I thought it was great that our dd could stand up to an entire class and the instructor and biblically defend her beliefs. Not for the faint-hearted! :tongue_smilie:

 

If you're not going to go the on-line route, couldn't you discuss any differences with your child and work through them together?

[holdoll]

Have you gotten a Rainbow Resource catalog yet? That will make your brain spin and fire come out of your mouth.

 

:lol:

 

:iagree:

[Michelle in MO]

Have you gotten a Rainbow Resource catalog yet? That will make your brain spin and fire come out of your mouth.

 

 

Why, pray tell? Is there something bad about Rainbow Resource that we should know about? It's very popular with both secular and religious homeschoolers.

[UnPrairieMuffin]

Why, pray tell? Is there something bad about Rainbow Resource that we should know about? It's very popular with both secular and religious homeschoolers.

 

No, nothing bad at all--but it can be overwhelming to read. The OP had a comment in her signature about beginning to home school, and I just wondered if she'd encountered that RR catalog. It has some reviews of VP material that might be useful. But...it is so voluminous that it can indeed make your brain numb when you start to read all of those entries, especially if you're at the beginning of your home schooling journey.

[Mommy to monkeys]

Have you gotten a Rainbow Resource catalog yet? That will make your brain spin and fire come out of your mouth.

 

:iagree::lol::lol:

[Michelle in MO]

No, nothing bad at all--but it can be overwhelming to read. The OP had a comment in her signature about beginning to home school, and I just wondered if she'd encountered that RR catalog. It has some reviews of VP material that might be useful. But...it is so voluminous that it can indeed make your brain numb when you start to read all of those entries, especially if you're at the beginning of your home schooling journey.

OK--gotcha! Yes, it is huge, and each year it gets bigger. I don't homeschool anymore, but I still receive the catalogue. It's a tremendous resource!

[mhg]

Retracted...had a few facts out of whack.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mhg

[Kim in Appalachia]

and this year my dd12 is doing Omnibus I on line. We are reformed, but not quite in-line with Wilson's views. I thought the Omnibus material was excellent, even balanced. It was definitely Christian, reformed slanted, but the questions are open-ended. You can debate answers and views. The goal is to be able to back up your opinion with examples/sources/quotes. The focus is on the material (Great books). The books are not a platform for Wilson or anyone else, and he is not the only contributer.

 

I think it would be harder to use the material if you were not a Christian at all.

[Mrs Mungo]

If you are not a Calvinist, then you would have a hard time using Omnibus, IMO.

[Michelle in MO]

If you are not a Calvinist, then you would have a hard time using Omnibus, IMO.

I'm not Reformed, yet we used both Omnibus I and II with no problems. I thought the discussion questions were excellent and provided good food for both thought and debate.

Edited August 1, 2010 by Michelle in MO

[mhg]

I always LOVED Veritas and decided during my pregnancy (4+ years ago) that it was the curricula I wanted to use.

 

Wellllll...fastforward to now. My son's newly 4 and I'm starting to think more seriously about homeschooling curricula. Now I'm wondering if the FEDERAL VISION debate in presented in the VP curricula within Wilson's contributions/edits, esp in the OMNIBUS curricula. Thus I posted the question to see if there were any out there who were familiar with the whole FEDERAL VISION debate and whether it was in Omnibus.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mhg
took out some erroneous info

[mhg]

If one did a search on FEDERAL VISION you'd find links on what it's about.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mhg
correction

[Rebecca77]

Thank you for starting this thread and sharing the info you found. This has just all been a mystery to me for quite some time now. I was in a very traditional reformed babtist church for many years, where almost every family homeschooled with VP. All of the Wilson's books were in the libary as well as in all the homes we visited, I bought and read them too. Then I started hearing that he'd gone off the deep end and adopted some new wrong beliefs that our elders did not agree with, but I never really took the time to investigate fully what these beliefs were. I do use VP cards, but that's it. I'm very leary as well.

[TerriMI]

We have used three of the Omnibus books and there is little to NO reference to the Federal ideas of Wilson. The VP catalog has had, in the past at least, don't know about now, some Wilson books for sale at the end of the catalog including one entitled, "The Federal Husband." They were never required reading for students or parents, never a part of a curriculum choice and very avoidable! As previously noted by earlier posters, the great analysis questions are open-ended. That said, the teacher's notes that are on the DVD do often offer answers to those questions that have a distinctly Reformed perspective and the Prelude essays often offer the same perspective. Who can blame them? They're Reformed! A parent/teacher can easily deal with these as they wish. By the time kids get to Omnibus age at any rate, it should be really appropriate to read, think about and discuss things other than what you believe. I think this is especially true for differences within your own faith. These Reformed references have not greatly bothered our evangelical-but-not-reformed family. We consider these ideas peripheral issues.

Edited August 5, 2010 by TerriKY

[mhg]

Thanks for sharing. That's how it was received at our church -- that Wilson had gone off the deep end and was no longer reliable. What concerned me is this: given how gifted Wilson is as a writer/orator that there may be a risk of this theology working its way in the curricula. Perhaps Omnibus was written before he leapt off the deep end.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mhg

[holdoll]

I wonder if Veritas Press has addressed this on their website. I'm going to go look now...:glare:

[mhg]

THe employee at VP said that she used Omnibus and that Wilson's FV wasn't within.

Edited August 5, 2010 by mhg

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess whether you could use it partly depends upon your knowledge and tolerance levels. I can barely stand to read their catalog anymore. I *know* I wouldn't be able to use Omnibus as my primary history text.

[mhg]

I guess whether you could use it partly depends upon your knowledge and tolerance levels. I can barely stand to read their catalog anymore. I *know* I wouldn't be able to use Omnibus as my primary history text.

 

 

Can you elaborate on what it is about the catalog that you dislike?

Edited August 4, 2010 by mhg
typo

[Mrs Mungo]

Can you elaborate on what it is about the catalog that you dislike?

 

There were a couple of threads on it that got locked and/or deleted. It's probably best that I don't. You could search "providential," to come up with some threads on the subject.

[Homemama2]

I am glad this thread came up. Omnibus is what I had my eye on for the future....I'm off to check out that link. We are not "reformed" but I had thought Omnibus looked like it would work. Good thing I have plenty of time to check things out!

[holdoll]

Mr. Detweiler from Veritas Press called me this morning in response to an email I sent to VP regarding "Federal Vision" and Doug Wilson. We spoke specifically about Omnibus and he assured me it will in no way change it. VP is definitely upfront about being "reformed". So if that is not your cup of tea, you at least know about it.

 

My dh and I have been reading about Doug Wilson's "Federal Vision" and have been even more confused by all the different things we're reading on the internet. Mr. Detweiler, while maintaining his loyalty to his friend Mr Wilson, said that while they are close, it doesn't mean he agrees with everything Mr. Wilson believes. Nor will it affect the curriculum.

 

According to Mr. Detweiler, it all has to do with baptism - an outward sign of being a Christian and how that relates to what's really going on in your heart. I am trying to remember word for word how he said it. I don't want to misquote him so I'll say no more. It was 3 hours ago - I ran to the board so I wouldn't forget and of course, the board was down.

 

After speaking with him though, I will still use VP products. I always look into any "Christian" book and how it compares to our own beliefs. That's all any of us can do. Each has to make their own decision.

[Tutor]

Douglas Wilson was one of a few pastors/ leaders in the PCA (of which I am a member) calling for the denomination to review its interpretation of the practice of communion. Being covenant believers, we practice paedobaptism (baptizing infants) believing that baptism is administered as a sign of a covenant established between God and the child's believing parents. The baptism has no "saving value". Wilson and others asked the question: if we administer the sacrament of baptism following a covenant model, should we also be administering Lord's Supper (the other sacrament) to children? This administration would also have no "saving value" but simply be another symbol of membership in a covenant community. This belief has been labeled "Federal Headship." It is not a new religion, it is a new interpretation within an existing philosophy.

 

All that is simply background to say, in my experience, Federal Vision philosophy has not shown up in the Veritas Press materials I have used or seen although I would not be averse (personally) to seeing a debate of it introduced at the high school level. The VP materials do come from a reformed/ covenantal theology background, however.

[Chris in VA]

I used VP's Omnibus 1 and 2. We skipped the RC Sproul book and a few others and added in our own theological works. It allowed me to teach my son the Great Books at a level he could grasp (we used them for 9th and 10th) and I could handle, not having a good backround in literature of that type.

 

Perhaps more Reform views come into play in the second set (Omnibus 4-6)? Or maybe we just skipped the bulk of it in the first two by avoiding what I said we did.

[forty-two]

Interestingly, I read a few months back that Gene Veith, a Lutheran professor (and provost) at Patrick Henry College, is involved with writing and editing Omnibus IV-IV. I was surprised, b/c of the Reformed emphasis, so I asked him about it. His response (10th comment at the above link):

 

As for Omnibus, I started working on volume 4, just out. It does indeed have a Lutheran strain, with extensive essays by me, my daughter Joanna Hensley, and John Warwick Montgomery. I would also say that my editorial presence mitigated some of the overt Calvinist bias of the other volumes. (Those were Calvinists doing them, so of course they express their theology. In some cases, they weren’t even aware of how biased some of it seemed.) Volume 4 is about the ancient world.

 

 

Volume 5, which we are working on now, is about the Medieval world through the Reformation. There is lots of good Luther reading, including primary sources such as “The Freedom of the Christian†and Roland Bainton’s great biography, “Here I Stand.†I wrote the essays and Joanna wrote the exercises. There is a lot of other good stuff in that volume, including units on Spencer and George Herbert, which I wrote.

 

So I'm not too worried about weird Doug Wilson stuff in Omnibus, at least.

[ScoutTN]

That is encouraging to hear about Gene Veith's work on the Omnibus higher levels. He's an excellent theologian and a careful thinker. We have enjoyed his book on postmodernism and his columns in WORLD magazine (though I think he's only there occasionally now).

[mhg]

Thanks all. This has really helped. A man from Veritas mailed me a copy of the Galatians section in Omnibus which I've started (a few minutes ago). I feel better.

[Julie in PA]

I am little late at weighing in on this. I have been busy and not spending as much time on forums. I hope it is okay. I aksed my husband for his response since he is very involved in writing, teaching, and overseeing things at Veritas Press Scholars Academy. Here is his response:

 

I have had the privilege of writing chapters in every Omnibus text book and I am the Headmaster of Veritas Press Scholars Academy. The Omnibus curriculum is not a subversive attempt to inculcate your children with “Federal Vision†theology and we are trying to do no such thing in our online classes. The theology portions of Omnibus simply do not rise to that level of specificity. We are writing (and teaching) from a Reformed, evangelical perspective. We believe in creation, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the Virgin birth, the deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, salvation by grace through faith and the Second Coming. These are the fundamentals we embrace and teach. When we come across issues that are controversial we defer to the parent and the pastor. I often tell my students that there are three keys to studying the fine points of theology, “Humility, humility, and humility.†If anyone has any questions about the curriculum or how we approach any issue in the online school, please feel free to email me. Bruce@Veritaspress.com. Thank you.

[angela in ohio]

In recent years Douglas Wilson has founded a new religion of sorts as I understand it.

 

I think this is a big stretch. Federal Vision is about one area of Reformed theology. It is hardly a "new religion." FTR, we don't agree with Federal Vision, but we consider it a minor area of disagreement with Doug Wilson.

 

Doug Wilson is a big personality. He is a talented theologian and a gifted writer, and he isn't wishy-washy about expressing what he believes. He is somewhat famous in Reformed circles. There are a lot of other big personalities in Reformed circles who probably think themseles worthy of that fame or who don't care for his style. The internet is full of people writing all sorts of things about him, both on blogs and on internet forums.

 

An aside, as I can guess the direction this thread might go... Veritas Press is a Reformed organization; that makes some people unhappy. There are many, many, many curriculum avalable that are NOT Reformed. It is nice to have a few options for the Reformed folks (TOG, VP, CLP.) It is difficult for us to use A Beka (more so) or BJUP (less so) or many of the other mainstream homeschool materials. Veritas Press (and TOG even more so) is often under attack for its Reformed take on history. Personally, I think the easier thing to do, rather than complaining about VP for being honest about their beliefs (unlike some curriculum providers who have tried to cover up their chosen faith,) would be to either use something else. Yet several times a year we have a thread about how awful VP and TOG are for being (shudder) Reformed :D

 

Back to the original issue... FWIW, TOG is from another Reformed slant that I personally don't agree with either, but it's still closer than A Beka. :001_smile: Given the choice between using a curriculum that might be influenced by FV (or SG) and one that is blatantly Arminian, I'll choose the former.

 

I hope that I misunderstand, but your "question" seems more like an opportunity to "get the word out" about Doug Wilson and VP. You linked to an article written by an author who apparently also wrote "CHILLING PARALLELS BETWEEN CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS." That seems a bit inflammatory, as do your comments that Doug Wilson has "gone off the deep end."

[Jami]

:iagree:

 

I hate to just have an "I agree" as a post, but Angela pretty much said what was on my mind regarding this thread.

 

Jami

 

I think this is a big stretch. Federal Vision is about one area of Reformed theology. It is hardly a "new religion." FTR, we don't agree with Federal Vision, but we consider it a minor area of disagreement with Doug Wilson.

 

Doug Wilson is a big personality. He is a talented theologian and a gifted writer, and he isn't wishy-washy about expressing what he believes. He is somewhat famous in Reformed circles. There are a lot of other big personalities in Reformed circles who probably think themseles worthy of that fame or who don't care for his style. The internet is full of people writing all sorts of things about him, both on blogs and on internet forums.

 

An aside, as I can guess the direction this thread might go... Veritas Press is a Reformed organization; that makes some people unhappy. There are many, many, many curriculum avalable that are NOT Reformed. It is nice to have a few options for the Reformed folks (TOG, VP, CLP.) It is difficult for us to use A Beka (more so) or BJUP (less so) or many of the other mainstream homeschool materials. Veritas Press (and TOG even more so) is often under attack for its Reformed take on history. Personally, I think the easier thing to do, rather than complaining about VP for being honest about their beliefs (unlike some curriculum providers who have tried to cover up their chosen faith,) would be to either use something else. Yet several times a year we have a thread about how awful VP and TOG are for being (shudder) Reformed :D

 

Back to the original issue... FWIW, TOG is from another Reformed slant that I personally don't agree with either, but it's still closer than A Beka. :001_smile: Given the choice between using a curriculum that might be influenced by FV (or SG) and one that is blatantly Arminian, I'll choose the former.

 

I hope that I misunderstand, but your "question" seems more like an opportunity to "get the word out" about Doug Wilson and VP. You linked to an article written by an author who apparently also wrote "CHILLING PARALLELS BETWEEN CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM FUNDAMENTALISTS." That seems a bit inflammatory, as do your comments that Doug Wilson has "gone off the deep end."