She *bombed* the MM test...now what?

[I.Dup.]

I posted yesterday about my 2nd grader most likely needing to repeat 2nd grade math this coming year, for 3rd grade. She is 8, she'll be 9 in January.

 

I gave her the MM 2nd grade test and she bombed it. She got a total of 77 points (and that's being generous) which equals out to about 50% on the test. :svengo:

 

Well okay then. Ummm there's no way I'm doing MM with her if she struggles this much with the Singapore approach I do not need something similiar and even more student intensive. She did Singapore 2a & 2b this past year.

 

I am leaning heavily towards Horizons (2nd grade) since it has alot of color and games on the pages (puzzles, mazes, etc) which she likes. I guess I could try MUS if that will help her, but I was hoping to avoid such a heavy reliance on manipulatives.

 

WWYD? :*(

[Mandy in TN]

IWell okay then. Ummm there's no way I'm doing MM with her if she struggles this much with the Singapore approach I do not need something similiar and even more student intensive. She did Singapore 2a & 2b this past year.

 

I am leaning heavily towards Horizons (2nd grade) since it has alot of color and games on the pages (puzzles, mazes, etc) which she likes. I guess I could try MUS if that will help her, but I was hoping to avoid such a heavy reliance on manipulatives. (

Sounds like you have a plan.:) Especially since, although the blocks are colorful, MUS is not.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[DarlaS]

The MM 2nd grade test is an exit test. If you were thinking of placing her into that level, did you expect her to pass it? I'm pretty sure MM covers topics Singapore does not. Sounds like she did pretty well considering.

 

It may every well not be the program for you, but if she scored 50%, I wouldn't say she bombed it.

 

Horizon's is a great program though (except there's just not much to the teacher's manuals)! Switching now would be the way to go.

[I.Dup.]

I gave her the 2nd grade test because she just completed 2nd grade. Yes, I was aware that it was an exit test. I wanted to see what chance we had of continuing on into 3rd grade, and we have less chance than I thought. Since she just completed 2nd grade (through Singapore) I was hoping she would do well on the 2nd grade exit test! kwim?

[Haiku]

I gave my dd, who just completed second grade using Right Start math, the 2nd grade MM year-end test. She didn't do as well as I'd hoped. When I scored the test, I saw that her problems clustered around a few topics. We are using the summer to address those topics.

 

I wouldn't say you have to chuck the idea of using MM just because she didn't score well on the year-end test.

 

Tara

[abrightmom]

The MM 2nd grade test is an exit test. If you were thinking of placing her into that level, did you expect her to pass it? I'm pretty sure MM covers topics Singapore does not. Sounds like she did pretty well considering.

:iagree:

 

Did you try giving her the first grade test? If she passes that then perhaps your original plan to put her into 2nd grade math is a solid one. It would even be dandy if it was "easy" on her to start with . . . then she will experience some success :D.

 

I just did my calculations for "how many sheets should we complete each week to finish MM in approximately 36 weeks". For the 2nd grade program it is about 7 sheets a week. This doesn't count the optional cumulative reviews or the tests, both of which are short (just 1 or 2 pages - can't remember now). That is a doable schedule for completion. I think it is a gentle pace that leaves room for hands on learning and for a struggling child to do shorter lessons if needed (my DS).

 

If *you* want the MM approach for her then you can choose a different program (your Horizons for color; or consider CLE which is VERY popular here and also a spiral approach - you can access their diagnostic tests for free on their website) as her main study and plug in some MM down the line via the "Blue" series. MM is awesome, IMHO.

 

Alas, I am no expert :D and regularly panic over our math path :D. Just a few suggestions and tid bits to think on.

[Ellie]

Well, I don't know what "MM" is, but if she struggled with math instruction last year, you would want to try to decide if it's the actual method you were using; if so, do something different next year. FTR, Singapore looks crazy to me; I'm more of a traditional-math person: Rod and Staff for me. :-)

 

It isn't about her "repeating 2nd grade math." It's working on her math skills so that she'll progress as much as possible; the level of the math you'd be using to teach her is irrelevant for the moment.

[....]

Hi, blessedwinter...I posted on your other thread about changing your math program and avoiding Singapore-type programs (like MM and BJU Math) with your student. Have you read Cathy Duffy's book - the Top 100 Curriculum Picks? Do you know what kind of learning personality your daughter has? This might make it easier to figure out what program would work best with her.

 

OK, don't think I'm a weirdo, but I'm getting my book out. :auto:

 

OK, I'm back. :D I have four kids with all different learning personalities, so I have this stupid chart memorized.

 

If your daughter is a Wiggly Willy (multi-sensory), according to Cathy Duffy, you should look at Math-U-See and Horizons Math (MUS scores the highest for Wiggly Willy). Stay far, far away from Singapore Math and Saxon - it says.

 

If your daughter is a Perfect Paula (structure-oriented), look at Horizons, MUS, Singapore, Chalk Dust and Saxon. I also think Perfect Paulas are good with CLE Math and BJU Math - but that's just my opinion.

 

If your dd is Competent Carl (logical/analytical), look at MUS, Horizons, Singapore, Chalkdust, Saxon. I also think C Carl would like CLE and BJU.

 

If your dd is a Social Sue, look at MUS (scores highest for MUS), Horizons (would be OK), Singapore (scores a 3 out of 5, so it's so-so). Avoid Saxon, Chalkdust. I'm actually using Singapore with our Social Sue and she is OK with it so far, but I'm going to watch for storm clouds looming in the horizon.

 

One math program that's not mentioned in her book is Oak Meadow's Math - and I think Social Sue and Wiggly Willy would love OM Math. They have samples on their website. Unfortunately, at 3rd grade and below, you have to go with the complete package.

 

I've been following Cathy Duffy's chart so far and it's been pretty spot-on. I really wish she would come out with another edition, though and include more programs in her chart. However, you can always kinda look at a program and see what will probably work.

 

Also, we are using Horizons 2nd grade and it is pretty advanced. My son (Wiggly Willy) cried today when he saw the subtraction problems. I might have to switch him to MUS later also. So, it happens.

 

I hope you find a program that your daughter likes...math can be such a pain sometimes...

[....]

Actually, Ellie mentioned Rod and Staff Math - is that similar to CLE? Does anyone know? That's one program that we haven't sampled. :tongue_smilie:

[twoxcell]

I don't know anything about MM, but if you want to place her into the 2nd grade MM have her take the 1st grade exit test. Just so you know Horizons is advanced and fast paced as well. My ds did K, and 1st. He did well with it, but we switched to Singapore 2a/2b this year. I had the Horizons 2 grade books and they move pretty quickly, and the TM is not very helpful.

[Night Elf]

but I was hoping to avoid such a heavy reliance on manipulatives.

 

WWYD? :*(

 

I'd like to comment on the the manipulatives. I'm not sure why you feel a reliance on manipulatives is a bad thing. Abstract thinking will develop in it's own sweet time. You cannot force it anymore than you can force a 2 year old to read a book or a 6 month old to walk. Manipulatives are important in concrete instruction because it helps the student see the concept. Abstract thinking is seeing the concept in your brain. It takes some children longer to make that transition from concrete to abstract. Maybe that lack of concrete instruction is what is holding her back from grasping the concepts. Just a thought.

[DarlaS]

I gave her the 2nd grade test because she just completed 2nd grade. Yes, I was aware that it was an exit test. I wanted to see what chance we had of continuing on into 3rd grade, and we have less chance than I thought. Since she just completed 2nd grade (through Singapore) I was hoping she would do well on the 2nd grade exit test! kwim?

 

No harm in hoping. It sounds like you kind of knew she might not do well on it though.

 

Does the MM sample for grade 2 cover the table of contents? MM is actually quite different from Singapore at this level. I see Fractions, Time and Money in 2B in Singapore and they are in 2A in MM. In 2B MM goes farther in these topics and covers a few more including adding and subtracting in columns which Singapore does not do (at this level).

 

They are fairly comparable overall, but this level of MM looks very different from it's Singapore counterpart.

[....]

Manipulatives are important in concrete instruction because it helps the student see the concept. Abstract thinking is seeing the concept in your brain. It takes some children longer to make that transition from concrete to abstract. Maybe that lack of concrete instruction is what is holding her back from grasping the concepts. Just a thought.

 

:iagree:

[I.Dup.]

Thank you so much Starrbuck12, that was very helpful!!! :001_smile:

 

It looks like MUS scores the highest overall. She is definitely a "Social Sue". Hmmm...I will have to look more into it. As of now, we have been doing NO concrete math. It's all been mental focused or in the workbook, no manipulatives, nothing. Clearly that is not working so it certainly wouldn't hurt to look into it. I'm just scared the blocks will be torn apart and lost (with 4 little boys) like everything else in this house, lol.

[DarlaS]

Have you seen this?

 

http://www.sonlight.com/RM00.html

 

I'd get these, since they use every math manipulative known to man on these dvds and kids LOVE Justin. Since you had 4 boys in 4 years, maybe you could use a hand. :001_smile:

[....]

GOOD! :001_smile: If we know she's a Social Sue, it says...

 

Out of a possible score of 5...5 being the most compatible, 1 the least

 

Horizons: 3

Math-U-See: 5

MCP Math: 3 (not sure what MCP is)

Progress in Mathematics: 5 (never heard of this one either, but she's really compatible with it)

Singapore: 3

Chalkdust: 2 (so avoid this one later)

Saxon Math: 2 (avoid this one too)

 

Like I said, if Cathy Duffy came out with another edition of her book, I would fly off and purchase it. :D

 

Good luck!

[nukeswife]

I'm not sure if you're looking for mastery or spiral or incremental. Sorry if I missed that somewhere, but if you're looking for fun with games and such, you might want to look at McRuffy. They currently only have through 3rd out but 4th grade is supposed to be out next month I believe.

 

My dd loves it. Due to a lot of trouble mastering addition facts my dd will only be doing Math 2 starting this fall and she's 8.5 (will be 9 in Nov) I'm fine with this. I asked her if she's bothered by the lower grade level and she said "No mom, instead of Grade 2 I think of it like Level 2, and I'm only ready for level 2)

 

McRuffy doesn't have a placement test but you can look over the scope and sequence on their website, http://www.mcruffy.com , and the author Brian is awesome when it comes to responding to email questions.

 

Just a thought. I wish you luck, sometimes finding just the right fit can be a tough road.

[SnowWhite]

We like BJU Math here. It looks similar to MM, but it's very teacher driven. It includes manipulative use, too. You'd still probably need to do at least part of the 2nd grade program, but there's the option to test her out of chapters due to its very obvious topical structure. (No sense spending a whole chapter on shapes if she knows them all, or telling time, YKWIM?)

[walkermamaof4]

I think my daughter might be a perfect paula type. we did R&S for 4 years and she knows her facts cold. She scored 8th grade equivalent this year (at gr 4) for facts. Don't get too excited. She also had no clue what she was doing, as much as I tried and tried to explain. She scored first grade for conceptual understanding of math. No joke. We bought MM after she completed R&S 4. I printed 4th grade. She absolutely couldn't understand it. I printed 3rd grade. She worked hard at learning it, says she LOVES it, begs not to go back ever, and is spending about 1 hour a day on it this summer to complete grade 3 quickly. After doing MM for a bit, I can see where exactly she lacks conceptual understanding and have been developing more of a strategy to help. I love that I can print pages from other levels or even the same level to have her practice those concepts more. My hope is to have her continue at this pace through 4th grade and then take it easy through 5th which is where she should be.

 

I don't know if that helps you at all. I just wanted to make a case for trying out MM1 and watching closely for where her struggles lie and trying to remedy those. You may need to use MEP or R&S or something super inexpensive to give her extra practice. She may just never be super strong in math. But I think that switching a child to R&S if they struggle might not give them the foundation of understanding which they already lack.It will cement their math facts and technique though.

 

BTW, I have a 7 y.o. son. For many reasons we've done very little math. We own RS and I did some of A and some of B with him last summer and none since. I handed him MM1 and he has flown through it. He has almost completed it entirely in one month. He reads the instructions and does it with almost no help from me; thank goodness since I am helping his sister!!! So, I have come to realize it has a lot to do with the child and some might struggle no matter what they use. If that is the case, I want them to at least love what they use. And we've found that in MM for both of mine!

[Another Lynn]

While I wouldn't discount advice from the Duffy book or considering what kind of learner your dd is.... I think math has more things to consider.

 

MUS can be great for helping to make sense of things (i.e. understanding WHY multiplying gives us the area of a rectangle).... but on the downside.... since you stay with a topic and take it to its mastery, you may find that the end of the year is extraordinary difficult compared to the beginning. Not so much with Alpha and Beta... but with Gamma and Delta you may find that the long multiplication and long division problems (seemingly day after day at the end of the books) may frustrate a dc who does not have the maturity for problems of that difficulty. For us, I suppose mastery wasn't the best fit after all. Also, as I look back on my own education, I was a very strong math student and lots of times the "why" (concept) made more sense to me after I had the "how" (process) down pat.

 

My .02 is that you need to find a program that you have confidence in where it is taking you and confidence in how it is getting you there. When I knew we needed to leave MUS, I was drawn to Horizons over and over again (it had a reputation for rigor, a firm foundation, it looked colorful and fun, it provided a variety of problems in one lesson), but the teacher manual did not give me what I needed to feel confident as a teacher. So, I had to keep looking. (If you're drawn to Horizons.... look at the TM for yourself and give her the 1st grade exit test. Maybe Horizons grade 2 is just the thing?)

 

What ended up addressing all our needs (included fact practice, speed drills, new concepts, review of old concepts, and a user friendly TM in the younger years, and lessons written in the Student Book in the older years) was CLE. Now, I admit if you have a Sociable Sue it may or may not be the right match for you.... or it might not be the TM you're looking for.... or whatever.

 

That's why I say you need to find a program that you have confidence in. If it makes sense to the way she thinks and the way you teach.... maybe it's social appeal should be secondary?

 

I do think you're right to question if MM is the best thing if Singapore didn't seem to fit right for her. Keep looking... you'll find it!

[Starr]

I've had friends use Horizons with great results and I like Scott Foresman/Addison Wesley. The latter has a workbook format the first few years so they don't have to write out all the problems. My ds liked the layout.

[JulieD]

I've been trying to reply to OP for a couple of days, but I've been having trouble being clear in my thoughts.

 

While I wouldn't discount advice from the Duffy book or considering what kind of learner your dd is.... I think math has more things to consider.

 

MUS can be great for helping to make sense of things (i.e. understanding WHY multiplying gives us the area of a rectangle).... but on the downside.... since you stay with a topic and take it to its mastery, you may find that the end of the year is extraordinary difficult compared to the beginning. Not so much with Alpha and Beta... but with Gamma and Delta you may find that the long multiplication and long division problems (seemingly day after day at the end of the books) may frustrate a dc who does not have the maturity for problems of that difficulty. For us, I suppose mastery wasn't the best fit after all. Also, as I look back on my own education, I was a very strong math student and lots of times the "why" (concept) made more sense to me after I had the "how" (process) down pat.

 

My .02 is that you need to find a program that you have confidence in where it is taking you and confidence in how it is getting you there. When I knew we needed to leave MUS, I was drawn to Horizons over and over again (it had a reputation for rigor, a firm foundation, it looked colorful and fun, it provided a variety of problems in one lesson), but the teacher manual did not give me what I needed to feel confident as a teacher. So, I had to keep looking. (If you're drawn to Horizons.... look at the TM for yourself and give her the 1st grade exit test. Maybe Horizons grade 2 is just the thing?)

 

What ended up addressing all our needs (included fact practice, speed drills, new concepts, review of old concepts, and a user friendly TM in the younger years, and lessons written in the Student Book in the older years) was CLE. Now, I admit if you have a Sociable Sue it may or may not be the right match for you.... or it might not be the TM you're looking for.... or whatever.

 

That's why I say you need to find a program that you have confidence in. If it makes sense to the way she thinks and the way you teach.... maybe it's social appeal should be secondary?

 

I do think you're right to question if MM is the best thing if Singapore didn't seem to fit right for her. Keep looking... you'll find it!

 

I so agree with this post! I'm a concept person, but my best friend has to learn facts and procedures first. Guess what? We're both good at math! We just need to approach it in different ways. The issue here is not whether your daughter likes the program you use; it's whether she learns math. Singapore has color and game-like activities, but it didn't work for her.

 

I'm nervous about you trying to use Horizons 2 which is more often said to be at or above grade level. I would highly recommend listening to the facts-oriented people in this thread and looking at some of the things they have used. I think Saxon might be worth a look, too, although it is expensive with the manipulatives. The manipulatives combined with the repetition may work well for your daughter, and it is more often said to be at or below grade level. Your daughter will like math best if she feels successful at it.

 

Also, with placement tests, I think I get better results with my kids when I start with the level I'm pretty sure they will succeed at. Sometimes if there is a question right at the beginning that they don't know, they'll become flustered and stop thinking.

 

My kids are opposites in the math department. Ds is like me, and dd is like my best friend. So while RightStart has been great for my oldest, I have to modify it for dd. She loves to do pages of problems in dollar store practice books. Then she will finally grasp the concept behind the procedure. I'm so glad I had the experience of growing up with someone who thought about math in a different way from me, because it has really helped me understand my dd.

 

Good luck!

 

Julie D.

[Omma]

As an aside, we have the MUS blocks and I love them, even though we never made it past the first few lessons of the Alpha book! I do have a dd who adores manipulatives, however (and a ds who can't stand them, lol). For the ds, I tell him that money is actually a manipulative and he changes his tune! :lol::lol:

 

We have tried Singapore (through about where you are), Horizons (through the 1st book of Level 3), and are now doing BJU Math. I love the 3rd edition of BJU Math. I find it very thorough and yet easy to teach, and I like the chapter themes. Plus there are cute characters for the Social Sue... such as Hal the photographer who travels through National Parks with Horatio, his pet squirrel (this is in Grade 3, which we have just completed).

 

My ds was very sad to leave Horizons Math (he liked the feeling that he was doing advanced math such as pre-algebra, even though he was not getting his multiplication facts down at all :tongue_smilie:), and I thought he needed to learn more math terminology and more conceptual understanding, which BJU Math has provided for him (along with lots of drill). He's had a rougher year with BJU Math because we used the DVD's and he has not enjoyed the teacher for BJU Math 4 (also it is the 2nd edition Math).... but he has learned a lot this year and I am pleased with his progress. And even though I have enjoyed teaching my dd with the 3rd edition of BJU Math this year, we will be switching her to the DVD's since I am leasing the whole 4th grade set for an additional year at a great price, and she is a combination of Perfect Paula and Social Sue and Wiggly Willy, plus she is just a natural at math, so I know she will do well.

 

Too bad you couldn't go to a curriculum fair about now to look over various math programs. I do feel that you, as the teacher, have to be able to understand and enjoy using whatever math curriculum you pick (I could not get into the Singapore way, or even MUS). Even if you have any friends using different math curricula, I'd try to borrow it... or at least download samples and see if you and your dc would enjoy learning math taught that way.

 

Blessings,

 

Brenda