Singapore's NEM or Art of Problem Solving....having trouble deciding

[Jenn in Mo]

All thoughts welcome. I'm down to one 3 weeks to decide. They both look GREAT. TONS of up-sides.

 

Down-sides to AOPS:

• New...limited background info, not many moms to discuss it.
  

 

Down-sides to NEM:

• Need to stick with it throughout h.s.
  
• Doesn't define the terms, so the vocabulary in college would be new
  
• Every time I say it, I hear Dorothy in my head saying, "Auntie Em! Auntie Em!"
  

 

Or is it possible to do both?

[StephanieZ]

Having tried out both, I'd say AoPS impressed me the most w/ its novel/creative/problem solving approaches. If my dd was more motivated w/ math, I'd have stuck w/ AoPS for all of h.s. maths. . . I will go back to it for ds (who is more inspired by math; they are both very good at it). . . and hope that he is inspired enough to use it. I just think it does an amazing job teaching them to think and problem solve creatively.

[Julie of KY]

I'm also on the fence between the two. Does NEM not do a good job of creative problem solving approaches?

[Jen500]

:lurk5:

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I have no advice but had to say I LOVE your avatar!!!

[KAR120C]

We started way-back-when with Singapore Earlybird and stayed loyal all the way through Primary with no regrets... so NEM was a pretty easy decision. However.... AoPS has been a huge temptation since I found it. If I had to choose between them, I'd probably stick with NEM. We've rearranged it a bit so that it's not a bad match for the US sequence (so needing to stick with it through high school isn't really that big of an issue). It's true that the vocabulary is different, but it's not a huge deal either. If you do anything else (DS does math competitions, a little ACT/SAT test prep, etc.), you're likely to hit all the major vocabulary differences that way.

 

However....... We're in an unusual position in that we started early and have some time to play with.... so we get to do both. ;) We did Algebra and Geometry with NEM (books 1 & 2, rearranged), next year we're doing AoPS (Counting & Probability, and Number Theory classes), and after that we might go back to NEM for Algebra 2 (NEM 3 & 4), but I wouldn't put it past me to do AoPS Algebra... probably just with the book because we'll be sort of 1/2 - 2/3 through from NEM and various other things.... and I think we can get do 2 and 3 in one year (the end of Introduction and all of Intermediate).

 

That doesn't really help, does it. :D

 

I guess the summary is, I really like NEM for at least 1 & 2 (the ones we've actually used). But I know that AoPS goes farther. If I didn't have extra time to fill, NEM would be perfect. It really does cover all the necessary stuff thoroughly and with a good critical thinking/ problem solving emphasis. But because we can spend the extra time on it, I think AoPS is going to be what we end up with.

 

Ask me again in January when DS has actually finished an AoPS class! :)

[Diviya]

I've been trying to decide as well. I've finally come down on the side of AoPS. It just seems so...right (kind of like when I first read TWTM). If my kids can handle it, I think it will really give them an advantage in life, both with the problem solving aspect, and the familiarity with discrete math. My current plan is to go through Key to Algebra after SM 6B just to get an introduction to the basics, and then tackle the AoPS Algebra book. I also plan to go through all of the AoPS books, not just the mainstream sequence.

 

All that being said, though, I think that NEM is a really solid program as well. Certainly that's what made the choice tough - Singapore Math has been so great; I feel disloyal going with something else for the next phase. But I truly believe that AoPS is the "wave of the future." NEM is a tried and true, very rigorous program, but I don't think that it can inspire a love and passion for math the way I am sensing AoPS can.

 

Of course, if my kids can't handle the AoPS approach (try to solve the problems first, before you know how to do them), then we will go with NEM, without any regrets. (OK, maybe a few regrets, but I will keep them to myself:)).

 

I have more time than you to decide, LOL, but I am totally obsessed with math curricula...

 

HTH

[Miss Marple]

We're in an unusual position in that we started early and have some time to play with

 

We're in the same position as Erica's student. My oldest used NEM through 3B/4A. I am a loyal Singapore math fan. My youngest started early with LOF beginning Algebra in 7th, we did AofPS Geometry in 8th and added in AoPS Algebra 1 in spring semester of 8th as a review and to go deeper than LOF. I decided that I would add in NEM 2 this year. There are aspects of both which I like. AoPS stretches ds and I find that he fatigues easily with it (that's common around here about age 14 - we call it the testosterone fog;)). I know that NEM will be easier for him. Plans for 9th are to work through NEM 2 along with finishing AoPS algebra 1. 10th will be NEM 3 with AoPS Intermediate Algebra. From there we move into concurrent enrollment for trig and calculus.

 

While AoPS goes deeper, NEM is an excellent series for upper level maths. I've used Lial's, Jacob's, Chalkdust, LOF, and still I find myself drawn to NEM. I think either series would be an excellent choice.

[Teachin'Mine]

'Nother one with no advice, but I'll never see NEM without thinking of Auntie Em now!!!! :lol: Thank Jenn!!! :D

[Jenn in Mo]

 

All that being said, though, I think that NEM is a really solid program as well. Certainly that's what made the choice tough - Singapore Math has been so great; I feel disloyal going with something else for the next phase.

HTH

 

Me, too! I've been obsessing about Algebra for over a year now....before I'd ever heard of AoPS. I blogged this for our 7th grade year: http://whitetrashmama.blogspot.com/2009/07/algebra-woes-and-glees.html We ended up going with a '63 Dolciani. It worked okay for us, but not great. Having a teacher's manual would have made a HUGE difference.

 

I wish I could get my hands on an AoPS book to get a feel for it. It's kind of where I'm leaning.

 

Thank you for the input, gals! I appreciate it!

[jlovebaker]

is impressive!

 

My 13 yo son started Intro to Number Theory this summer. Wow - I was blown away by the course - I had to do most of the problems with him (and he has already completed Alg 1 and tested well on the SATs for CTY) but let me tell you - I grew up with formulas - love them and did fantastic in math throughout high school and college ... then I met AofPS ... whoa - it's about thinking and working out the equations for the problems - not plugging in. This is a very different method from what I was used to and really allowed us to think about the whys of math.

 

We had fun for a few weeks playing with numbers but ultimately decided to drop the class because it was so time intensive for a summer class. BUT - I thought the class was fantastic and my son and I had some fun with it. We're considering another class for the fall.

[Belacqua]

I'm a huge fan of AOPS. I think it elevates all its students, whether they're already really strong in math or less certain.

 

The AOPS books and classes make the student think about where a solution comes from. I looked at the transcript from one of my son's AOPS classes and noticed how often a student would answer and the teacher would respond, "Right. But why?"

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

My son is currently doing AoPS for the first time (Algebra 1 over the summer). He did NEM 1 this last year.

 

For us, it's AoPS all the way, with the online classes, not on his own. The classes keep him on track, keep him somewhat challenged, and definitely thinking. He's going deeper than he did with NEM.

 

On the Challenging Set, there's a series of problems that the kids are not expected to solve completely. He managed 2 out of 3 last time. So he's getting somewhere!

 

Technically what he've seen so far with AoPS was all revision, and he's still learning stuff and being challenged. If I can afford it, it will be AoPS for him till graduation.

[Jenn in Mo]

Wow! That about has me sold! Thank you, gals!

[HeidiD]

All thoughts welcome. I'm down to one 3 weeks to decide. They both look GREAT. TONS of up-sides.

 

 

 

Down-sides to AOPS:

 

• New...limited background info, not many moms to discuss it.

 

 

Down-sides to NEM:

 

• Need to stick with it throughout h.s.

• Doesn't define the terms, so the vocabulary in college would be new

• Every time I say it, I hear Dorothy in my head saying, "Auntie Em! Auntie Em!"

Or is it possible to do both?

 

 

You might want to get both. :)

 

I might be wrong, but isn't AOPS a supplemental program? We have several volumes here and it is an excellent approach. But not the only program we use.

[MBM]

All thoughts welcome. I'm down to one 3 weeks to decide. They both look GREAT. TONS of up-sides.

 

Down-sides to AOPS:

 

• New...limited background info, not many moms to discuss it.

 

 

Down-sides to NEM:

 

• Need to stick with it throughout h.s.

• Doesn't define the terms, so the vocabulary in college would be new

• Every time I say it, I hear Dorothy in my head saying, "Auntie Em! Auntie Em!"

 

 

Or is it possible to do both?

 

We liked both NEM and AoPS but ultimately switched to AoPS about two years ago.

 

I would just mention that if you take the online classes, they do move quickly, but you would have access to help from teachers. If you are not able to help your child with the tougher questions, it's to your child's advantage to have a group that can. Students help one another, too, and are a nice bunch. Richard Rusczyk has also put up some short online videos that could help your child.

 

My son has taken a few online classes and also worked solo through some of the books, but my husband is able to help him with the challenging math problems. That makes a big difference.

 

Math classes can stand on their own--no need to supplement--but AoPS offers several classes as well as two books, Volume 1: the Basics and Volume 2: and Beyond, that are geared more toward competition math. You could use these as a supplement with a different curriculum.

 

If you do a search, Kathy in Richmond has some excellent insight and advice about AoPS (and I believe at least one of her children has taught there).

 

My favorite endorsement is the one written by a student that says "AoPS is like a juicy steak!" LOL. We think so, too. Very meaty.

 

HTH. :)

[katilac]

I am forever asking my sweet b-i-l for math advice, b/c he's a physicist and actually, y'know, USES this stuff. He's very patient about looking at books and samples and giving his opinion. When I collared him to look at the AOPS web site on his last visit, he was so impressed that he bought dd a stack of books: Art of Problem Solving, Algebra, Number Theory, and Counting and Probability! Told ya he was sweet ;)

 

We won't start with any of them till the fall, so I can't yet tell you how it will play out, but his opinion means a lot to us. Looking at the books, I feel much better about venturing into upper math. We used Singapore through level 6, but I feel better about AOPS for upper levels.

[HeidiD]

Math classes can stand on their own--no need to supplement--but AoPS offers several classes as well as two books, Volume 1: the Basics and Volume 2: and Beyond, that are geared more toward competition math. You could use these as a supplement with a different curriculum.

 

 

Thanks for clarifying that - those are the volumes we have, as well as Intro. to Counting and Probability, and for a complete program, they did seem a bit thin. :) But I see on the website that they only allot 12 weeks to Intro. to Counting & Probability.

 

To those of you who have experience with the on-line classes: Are they live? How much time do they take per week? Do they follow the books exactly, or is there extra material taught that isn't covered in the books?

[MBM]

Thanks for clarifying that - those are the volumes we have, as well as Intro. to Counting and Probability, and for a complete program, they did seem a bit thin. :) But I see on the website that they only allot 12 weeks to Intro. to Counting & Probability.

 

To those of you who have experience with the on-line classes: Are they live? How much time do they take per week? Do they follow the books exactly, or is there extra material taught that isn't covered in the books?

 

Yes, they are live, but full transcripts are also available shortly after the class is over if the student is absent.

 

The classes my son has taken have been 1.5 hours long and meet once per week. On average, I think he spends one or sometimes two hours per day, five days per week on a single class, but it varies depending on the subject and material in the chapter. Algebra to Geometry was quite a switch for him -- all those proofs!

 

The online classes follow the books and include extra material in the form of Challenge Sets which take the place of tests. Challenge Set problems are posted separately on the forums. Students get three weeks to work on them and then submit solutions on the forum, or they can fax or snail mail them.

 

For classes like the Beginning or Advanced AMC-8, problems are posted on the forums. No books needed. (I'm not sure about the AMC-10 or AIME classes. They may use Volumes I and II.) Again, the students post their answers on the forum.

 

NB: It is important to bow to the instructor at the end of the class. (just kidding!) I'm talking about a bowing icon the students like to use at the end of the class when they're saying good-bye.

 

Last of all, if an online class appears to be too difficult, you can get a full refund if you cancel before the start of the third class. Pretty nice!

[dirty ethel rackham]

We recently switched from NEM to AoPS this year. My kids were getting bogged down in NEM. They were losing their "joy" of math. My oldest is doing the Algebra 2 class right now and he likes it. He has thanked me for changing books. While my kids were "getting" NEM, my oldest was working too slowly because he was not thrilled. It took him over 3 years to finish NEM 1 & 2. We went with the class so we could get him through calculus his senior year.

[HeidiD]

NB: It is important to bow to the instructor at the end of the class. (just kidding!) I'm talking about a bowing icon the students like to use at the end of the class when they're saying good-bye.

 

 

Just like karate class. :)

 

Thanks for the info - sounds good!

[dhudson]

My ds will finish up NEM 1 and start NEM 2 in 8th and also does LOF Algera as a supplement for fun. Would the AOPS be better for a really strong math kid or should I just leave him a program that he is excelling in?

[Belacqua]

My ds will finish up NEM 1 and start NEM 2 in 8th and also does LOF Algera as a supplement for fun. Would the AOPS be better for a really strong math kid or should I just leave him a program that he is excelling in?

 

I'm always an advocate of sticking with what's working for you. But even if your son doesn't take an AoPS class, he can still visit the site and check out the forums. AoPS is the Facebook of the mathy set. :)

[dhudson]

I'll check out the boards. The boy loves his math - I found math equations in sidewalk chalk on the driveway. He was supposed to be exercising.:001_smile:

[RootAnn]

Bumping for those posters who said to check with them in January to see how AoPs was going.... :bigear:

[Jenn in Mo]

I went with AoPS and we struggled through it, averaging 2 hours per day for about a month or two before finally giving up. Ethan tested in the top 6% in math, but this was HARD STUFF. My husband and I excelled in math, but we had to look up the explanations for nearly every single problem.

 

We switched him to NEM and it was an instant fit. Challenging, but not impossibly so. The layout is different from the Singapore we were accustomed to, but the challenge level seems to be the same. He is a bit behind now, but will be able to make it up over the summer.

 

I'm glad we tried it, else I would always have wondered, but NEM is definitely the right fit for us. I have also had him go through a 1963 Dolciani, copying down his own list of properties, to supplement.

[KAR120C]

Bumping for those posters who said to check with them in January to see how AoPs was going.... :bigear:

I think I did say that! Good thing you bumped it - I never would have remembered to come back to the thread!

 

DS is right now finishing the last challenge sets for Number Theory and Counting & Probability. It's been great, really, but definitely a heavy load. I would generally not suggest doubling up classes... we probably won't do that again! but it did work. And actually I like the two together -- if I were doing it at home over a year I'd still run them simultaneously, just because they complement each other so well. But cramming them into a two simultaneous twelve-week classes is a TON of work. DS handled it very well. I think it would have been perfect except for his having the last challenge sets the same week as a Latin midterm AND his science fair project... ack!

 

So schedule-wise, we could have used some more wiggle room. But in terms of content they were absolutely perfect.

 

I still haven't completely decided where we're going from here... we have cryptography lessons to fill out the rest of this year (and competition math - we're definitely not dropping math!), and Economics... and with all the various extra things we do we're partway through Algebra 2 right now, toward the end of what the NEM series covers, and most of the way through what the AoPS Intro to Algebra covers.

 

So the plan for next year is to go through the AoPS Problem Solving books. The planned schedule is (again) way faster than I would generally recommend, but I think DS will be up for it. He's planning to do Electronics (and the related physics) for science next year, and there's plenty of math in that too... I still have all my NEM books, so there's a fair chance I'll grab them for a topic or two, but also I have plans to borrow someone else's AoPS Algebra while they're taking a break. So my guess is by the end of the year the AoPS Intro to Algebra will be behind us (in one way or another) and we might be ready for Intermediate or maybe Precalculus, depending on what extra stuff gets folded in along the way. But almost certainly AoPS for our main texts from here on! :)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

DS is finishing Algebra 2 next week. He's still loving AoPS, still enjoying class, and the challenge. We are *not* dropping AoPS, that's certain!

 

His next class, he won't be able to attend the live chat, and I wonder if it's worth paying for the class if he can't attend. I think it is, he can get the transcript, access to the forum, and the teacher, and he would need to do the challenge sets. So far, we're planning on registering him anyway.

 

AoPS is so worth it in this household.

[Miss Marple]

My youngest has done part of Intro. Algebra and about half of Intro to Geometry. We were using this as a supplement, but it became overwhelming to use it as well as a standard curriculum. So we went back to our favorite, NEM, and are leaving him there. I still have Counting and Probability which I may try to use next year. He's a bit ahead of the game in math so we may have time. Or I may have him do those as elective courses in which case he'll just have to realize he has 2 math courses in the same year :-)

[catz]

I went with AoPS and we struggled through it, averaging 2 hours per day for about a month or two before finally giving up. Ethan tested in the top 6% in math, but this was HARD STUFF. My husband and I excelled in math, but we had to look up the explanations for nearly every single problem.

 

We switched him to NEM and it was an instant fit. Challenging, but not impossibly so. The layout is different from the Singapore we were accustomed to, but the challenge level seems to be the same. He is a bit behind now, but will be able to make it up over the summer.

 

I'm glad we tried it, else I would always have wondered, but NEM is definitely the right fit for us. I have also had him go through a 1963 Dolciani, copying down his own list of properties, to supplement.

 

I've been watching this thread with interest. I have a 10 year old doing NEM1 this year and I debated over and over about what to do with him. He is clearly very mathy, but the work load required by AoPS just seemed beyond us at this point. NEM has been a nice fit for us too and I think we're at least going to go through NEM1 and 2 before we re-evaluate.

 

I just wanted to comment as someone with a math degrees who has a pile of math curriculum at home and has definitely over researched this topic that NEM is an very rigorous program with in depth problem solving and conceptual leaps. On a scale of 1 to 10 of rigor with AoPS being a 10, it's probably an 8 or 9 compared to the other curriculum I've looked at.

[regentrude]

We are still very happy with AoPS.

DD is halfway through Geometry and starting chapter 3 of Intermediate Algebra (we do both in parallel, taking turns- she is dragging her feet on geometry a bit and would love to just do algebra.)

 

DS is using Intro to Algebra and making good steady progress. He is working a bit slower than his sister did, but she was a year older and is more ambitious and driven. We are taking our time (just using the book, not the very fast paced online class). He may finish the algebra 1 portion (up to ch. 13 or 14) this school year - or he may not; we'll continue the book next school year.

[Jenn in Mo]

I've been watching this thread with interest. I have a 10 year old doing NEM1 this year and I debated over and over about what to do with him. He is clearly very mathy, but the work load required by AoPS just seemed beyond us at this point. NEM has been a nice fit for us too and I think we're at least going to go through NEM1 and 2 before we re-evaluate.

 

I just wanted to comment as someone with a math degrees who has a pile of math curriculum at home and has definitely over researched this topic that NEM is an very rigorous program with in depth problem solving and conceptual leaps. On a scale of 1 to 10 of rigor with AoPS being a 10, it's probably an 8 or 9 compared to the other curriculum I've looked at.

 

This is such a relief to hear. I truly felt like a drop-out when we stopped AoPS. But we really like NEM, so I couldn't stay miserable for long.

[KS_]

I went with AoPS and we struggled through it,

 

We switched him to NEM and it was an instant fit. Challenging, but not impossibly so. The layout is different from the Singapore we were accustomed to, but the challenge level seems to be the same. He is a bit behind now, but will be able to make it up over the summer.

 

 

 

I had NEM but after all the rave reviews about AOPS, I bought Algebra I and Intro to Counting and Probability. We started into the Algebra I this fall, but ds really hated it. I'm not sure what exactly was setting him off, but he thought it was difficult (this is my child that tends to fall to pieces if he can't get things right fairly easily - we've been struggling trying to teach him to actually *work* at things because he is bright). So I switched him to NEM (we'd used Singapore all the way before that), and he instantly liked it much better. I'm still waiting to see if I'll try to add Intro to Counting in at some point, but NEM has definitely been a better fit here.

[Miss Marple]

I've been thinking about the two programs, NEM and AoPS. I still think AoPS is my "ideal" for a student who is math adept. But why did I go away from AoPS and go back to NEM? In my ideal world, I would stick with AoPS but my world is less than ideal right now. In my world, the best scenario for using AoPS would be:

 

Having an only child (or a large difference in age between 2 children). With 3 high schoolers, one a graduating senior and the subsequent activities he requires, I simply cannot give as much attention to the son using AoPS as he needs. Ds#4 is very math adept, but he is in the "testosterone doldrums" right now. AoPS, for us, isn't a "do it on your own" program whereas NEM is more that way. He frequently needed help with the logic of AoPS - "how does one go from point X to point Y" type of questions. Much of our conversation would go: Me: do you remember the rule you learned last week? Him: What rule? Me: let's go back and review...

 

If I had the ability to spend more extensive one-on-one time with him, I would have stuck with AoPS. I'm hoping to use Counting and Probability later in high school when I only have 1 other student.

 

Both AoPS and NEM are excellent programs - if you can afford the online classes and the time commitment it requires, then AoPS is a great choice. But NEM also gives fantastic results (as evidenced by my oldest son) so we're going to use that for now.

[katilac]

dd, 7th grade, is still using and liking AoPS. we are not using a class with it, which means she can go as slowly as she likes. which is very. very! slowly, lol. I'm fine with that, b/c she doesn't NEED to finish in a year, and she is working steadily on the material and staying interested. It would go quicker if she had more help, but she likes to figure it out on her own and only calls me in when she gets truly stuck.

 

We are in the "use multiple maths" group, so she does not do it every day. For algebra she currently uses AoPS intro to algebra alongside The Teaching Company dvds (she only watches and figures problems in the video, doesn't do the workbook). She also has RightStart Geometry for Middle Grades, which she started last year, so the plan is to finish AoPS intro to algebra and RS geo over 7th and 8th grades. I don't require the videos, but she likes them and they give her a more complete understanding.