Should pastors be paid? scripture to back it up?

[the4Rs]

This is something I am wondering about and would love to know scripture either way on this argument.

 

Should pastors be paid for their job? Or should they have an outside job to take care of themselves and their family and still pastor?

 

Isn't pastoring a calling? I guess I just wonder where the salary thing comes into this....Weren't early apostles called to be "tent-makers" wherever they spread the message?

 

I look at our church (and for the record I really like our pastors and their families) and realize that there are many people in our church who volunteer their time teaching Sunday school, being elders, cleaning the church, etc, etc, etc. None of them are paid. They give out of the desire to serve. Shouldn't it be the same for pastors?

 

I understand that they have a consuming job of pastoring their churches but something in my gut just doesn't sit well with this practice of paying our pastors a salary (and in our case a housing allowance as well) while the vast majority of the people in our church give time and talents because we want to.

 

Again I'd love some scripture to either back up what I am saying or scripture to show me how wrong my thoughts are. Thanks.

 

I don't want this to be a bashing pastors thread. Just something I have wondered about.

[MomLovesClassics]

Yes they should work to support their family. I have known many who had full time jobs.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Scripture points to you being on the right track. Matt 10:7,8 "You received free, give free." Jesus set the pattern of ministering for no financial return. The 1st century Christians followed that pattern closely, working secularly to take care of their needs as they preached and taught. They weren't paid for sharing God's Word (2 Cor 2:17).

[MeaganS]

I agree that they shouldn't be paid, and in my church they are not. My father and my husband's father have both been leadership in our churches and held very demanding full-time jobs outside of it. They both volunteered 20 hours a week or more to the church. In our church, though, they only keep that position for about 5 years and then someone else is asked to be leadership. It works amazingly well and I know first hand that they were both very blessed for their time and sacrifice.

[Barry Goldwater]

Scripture points to you being on the right track. Matt 10:7,8 "You received free, give free." Jesus set the pattern of ministering for no financial return. The 1st century Christians followed that pattern closely, working secularly to take care of their needs as they preached and taught. They weren't paid for sharing God's Word (2 Cor 2:17).

:iagree: Always good to 'go to the source' for an answer:thumbup1:

 

 

It's not a popular position...but you can see the wisdom in it...being unpaid would remove the temptation to steer clear of 'unpopular' topics, for fear of strong tithers that are convicted by the unpopular topic leaving, thus hurting the church budget or staff salaries!

[stripe]

I guess it may be an issue of what sort of people will be able to devote just how much time per week, without being paid. Modern American society is different than ancient times. It may be difficult to attract quality people to a job where there is no financial remuneration. In addition to the very very devout, who may not be able to support a spouse or children, you may be left with the independently wealthy and unsavory characters or the ill prepared.

 

Being a pastor is not like being a volunteer. A pastor is always on call, and needs to be accessible to the congregation. People expect to be able to call at 2 AM with a dying child. That may not be possible if the person has to go to work or is in fact at work when the need arises. If the only role of a religious leader is, for example, to lead prayer services once a week and do the occasional outreach, then an unpaid volunteer may suffice. But if someone expects 50+ hours a week of service to an organization, it will likely be hard to get that for free. I personally don't think it's realistic.

[Sue G in PA]

It has always rubbed me the wrong way in the churches that I've been involved in. I remember one particular incident in our last church where our pastor was showing a slide-show of his new home...huge, beautiful, brand-spanking new home in a terrific neighborhood, etc....during church! Never sat well with me. In our new church, our pastor is always talking about his new thises and new thats and how his wife only deserves the best of everything. He often describes his vacation homes and even once dared to complain that his family could no longer vacation where they used to b/c of the economy...they had to move to a different spot where the condo didn't have elevators! Oh my...poor thing. Plus, at various times during the year we take up a "love" offering for our pastor or buy him lavish gifts...big screen TV was the last one for Pastor Appreciation Day. Always makes my stomach turn. Plenty of people volunteer the same amount of time outside of their jobs and other committments. Plenty of pastors hold full-time jobs outside of ministry...especially when planting a new church. I've had bad experiences with this so I can't say if pastors shouldn't be paid at all.

[Daisy]

Hubby and I are both preacher's kids and we couldn't agree more with you.

 

I think there are many problems that would be resolved by having volunteer pastors. Churches would have to be smaller. Churches wouldn't become mega-businesses. Pastors wouldn't be able to insulate themselves from the world. Pastoral staff would be less likely to view the church as the ONLY place ministry happens. Pastors would be less likely to live on a power trip.

 

The congregation would HAVE to step up and get involved because it would be the ONLY way anything would get done.

 

Really, I could go on forever on this topic.

[Remudamom]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

And shame on you.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Remudamom

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I am coming from the perspective of a pastor's kid and wife both. Here's what I see:

 

1. When anything happens in the church the pastor is expected to be there--along with his wife and their family.

 

2. They are expected to not just teach on Sunday morning, often times the pastor is the one who takes care of making sure the church is kept up, the finances are in order, the staff is taken care of, and making sure that there are teachers, etc in the children's area or in Sunday school.

 

3. The pastor is the one who visits when people are sick or when they are mourning, or when they are in need.

 

4. The pastor heads up the meeting of the board of the church and helps set the policies that makes our churches run smoothly.

 

5. The pastor is the one who directs the weddings and funerals and everything surrounding those events for the family.

 

6. The pastor is the spiritual counselor for the church and at times direct members to people who can help them.

 

7. The pastor is the one who does the "pr" for the church as far as the person that the community sees as the head of that particular body of believers.

 

--This is all in addition to the many special holiday services and also the special religious holiday services that come up several times a year.

 

The difference between a pastor and a nursery worker or Sunday school teacher is that the buck stops with the pastor. If a lay worker doesn't show up for their teaching assignment one Sunday, it can be taken care of, if the pastor doesn't show, it's a problem.

 

In the early church, the head of the church were lay people, but, the apostles weren't for the most part. They traveled and expected the church to care for their needs. The Bible says in 1Tim. 5:18 that a worker is worth his wage.

 

If we want our pastors to work secular jobs (and many of them do--my dh did for several years to supplement us) then we need to not expect so much from them. The church lay people need to either lower their expectations of what their church will provide for them, or they need to stand up and pick up the slack of what they expect from their church.

 

The pastor is the one who sets the tone for the church.

 

We are currently missionaries and we even try to supplement a little with our income by helping out a mom here right now who needs someone to watch her dd3 while she needs to work in the US and her adoption is being completed. It takes away from our ability at times to do the ministry that we are here to do. When a pastor works outside the church,the same thing happens.

 

I think the person who doesn't get paid, but is expected to do as much is the pastor's wife! Oftentimes, she's the one working to supplement and still expected to make it to all the services, run the women's ministry, and help teach when the church needs her to, and visit when people in the church need it.

[ladydusk]

I disagree. I think pastors should be supported from their community. The Old Testament shows us clearly that much of the offerings/tithe were intended for the support of the priests. Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 5 that the worker is worthy of his wages. Paul often thanked the congregations in his letters for their financial support. True, he did tentmaking, but he also received support from established congregations.

 

What about international missions? Should we support missionaries overseas or should they also work two jobs? Remember that our pastors are missionaries here at home.

[Xuzi]

I agree that they shouldn't be paid, and in my church they are not. My father and my husband's father have both been leadership in our churches and held very demanding full-time jobs outside of it. They both volunteered 20 hours a week or more to the church. In our church, though, they only keep that position for about 5 years and then someone else is asked to be leadership. It works amazingly well and I know first hand that they were both very blessed for their time and sacrifice.

We're the same denomination, and I agree. (duh :tongue_smilie:) I LOVE the way everyone in an LDS congregation is expected to pitch in. Practically everyone has a Calling of some sort to help minister to the congregation (of course some people don't serve, and nobody is forced to). The Bishop (similar to a Pastor, except he doesn't preach regularly) has many many people he can delegate the work to. He's still pretty busy, but not so much that he has to quit his day job. And he's only doing it for 5 years and then we're given fresh leadership. I love the different backgrounds my various Bishops have come from: a retired cop, a chiropractor, a lawyer, a school teacher... all have added SO much to their congregations from their various abilities and willingness to serve. Blessings from Heaven is the *best* payment, IMO. :D

[Matryoshka]

Wow, I guess I'm the only one who disagrees? I'm happy to pay our pastor her salary. Yes, lots of people volunteer time at church - but not even close to the time she puts in. She's got to write weekly sermons, minister to the sick, attend *all* the meetings, run weddings and funerals and baptisms, counsel people...

 

And yes, we pay her, but she's not rich, even with a working husband. They can't even afford to live in our town - they had to move the next town over where prices are a bit lower, and live in an old house that needs work. How much are you guys paying your pastors?? To afford the kind of swanky lifestyle you're describing around here you'd need to be earning over 200K a year.

 

And we manage to pay her even though we are not a tithing church - some people pledge, but it's not required - I don't even think a majority of members do - and I doubt anyone's paying 10% of their salary. Besides the pastor, the only other paid positions are part-time secretary, music director and religious education director.

 

I feel we're very lucky to have such a great pastor and am glad to compensate her for the time and care she gives us.

[Daisy]

 

If we want our pastors to work secular jobs (and many of them do--my dh did for several years to supplement us) then we need to not expect so much from them. The church lay people need to either lower their expectations of what their church will provide for them, or they need to stand up and pick up the slack of what they expect from their church.

 

 

 

Well, exactly. I think this is my point.

 

I don't have a problem paying our pastor's salary. I'm not just not convinced hiring a few people to "run the church" is the best way to go.

[Irishmommy]

I'm not sure what size churches you've been attending, but my dad has been a pastor all his life, and we NEVER lived in big houses. In fact, all the houses that I have owned as an adult have been bigger than any parsonage we ever lived in. I guess I tend to agree with the poster who said that a pastor is always on call. My dad spent WELL more than 20 hours a week at his job. It was more like 60 plus plus. There is no way my dad could have been the type of pastor that the Lord called him to be if he had an "outside" job. I remember many nights he left to attend a need in the congregation, going to the hospital or funeral home. I feel that people are "called" by God to do many jobs. Why should anyone get paid for a job? Well, because the reality is that we need money to support our families. I, for one, would be in favor of everyone getting paid the same amount because it seems that the ones that are doing the most important jobs are the ones getting paid the least or not at all (pastors, teachers, moms and dads - as opposed to CEOs of big companies and professional sports stars).

Sorry for my tangent. ;)

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

:iagree:Absolutely. People would never expect themselves to live in the way they expect their pastors to live. It never ceased to amaze me when we would be struggling so hard and people would be going on vacations, buying new things all the time, and the tithing and giving would go down and they would all be wondering if they had to cut our salary--again. But, they did expect us to be there whenever there was a crisis or they wanted a special service for some reason.

 

I'll never understand why ministers are relegated in the minds of some people to poverty and hardship.

[ScoutTN]

There has been a thread about this recently. And one about the strengths/weaknesses of small and large churches. They are closely tied imo.

 

I think that pastors should be paid for their work as everyone else is. Would you expect your DH, who has a college degree and a graduate degree (so knowledge/skills that not everyone has) to work 50+ hours a week for free? And then still have to support his family? No how.

 

Can you or your DH read the Bible in Greek and Hebrew and use exegesis tools discerningly to teach the Scripture to people? Every week, 3 or 4x a week?

 

The Levites in the OT were supported by the tithe so that they could lead the people in worship and service to God.

Do not muzzle the ox as it treads out the grain. See 1 Corinthians 9 quoting Dt. 25. Just because Paul chose not to exercise his right does not mean that no pastor should. The passage clearly teaches that churches should support their pastors financially.

 

The work our pastors (and other staff) do is excellent and they do deserve to be paid a reasonable (not and exorbitant) wage. Our church is 2000+, has a school and a host of ministries in the community. Our pastors, teach, lead and counsel with diligence, humility and perseverance. They aren't perfect, but they are godly and authentic and they preach the gospel in a lost world with grace and boldness. And they equip and encourage us to do the same.

 

That said, the merits of smaller churches are certainly significant and ministry can be done there in very different ways from larger churches.

And I agree with Daisy and others about some of the weaknesses of the pastorate in current American churches.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Well, exactly. I think this is my point.

 

I don't have a problem paying our pastor's salary. I'm not just not convinced hiring a few people to "run the church" is the best way to go.

 

Is this the general feeling within your church? If so, are people in the church willing to put in the time and effort it takes to do the jobs of the people who are hired to do those jobs? The issue I have is that, it sounds good, in theory, but, the facts are is that it is a volunteer position at that point. So, if someone's life gets a little crazy, they can just slack on the volunteer position in the church and then guess who picks it up? The pastor.

[Jugglin'5]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

And shame on you.

 

:iagree:

 

From 1 Corinthians 9:

8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

 

 

My husband is an unpaid elder, but he gets to put it down occasionally. Our pastor never gets to completely put it down. It is a heavy yoke. Most pastors I know aren't living in mega-mansions. They struggle to get by.

[Remudamom]

Yep, and Paul wasn't supporting a family either.

 

I prefer small churches, ours is too big right now for me to be content there. And too far away.

 

When we were going to a smaller church, dh said he didn't even want his pastor to have to mow his lawn. He felt he needed time to study, pray and get ready to feed his flock come Sunday.

[Heather in WI]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

:iagree:

 

We have one full-time pastor, two additional teaching elders, and three deacons. Only the full-time pastor is paid, and I am happy to pay his salary.

 

He certainly isn't paid mega-bucks to afford vacation homes, big screen tvs, luxury vehicles, etc., but he is paid enough to live in a decent house, provide for his wife and three children, have two working vehicles, etc. I am shocked to hear that people believe a full time pastor should be a volunteer! My goodness! :001_huh:

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I agree that some ministers have taken absolute advantage of their calling and ministry to accrue wealth. BUT, overwhelmingly, the majority of the people serving in these roles do not.

[Natalieclare]

Galations 6:6 says "Anyone who receives instruction in the word must share all good things with his instructor."

 

I don't have a problem with pastors being paid, though in our church the team of elders share the work and don't receive pay.

[jacqui in mo]

When Jesus sent out the disciples on a mission it was expected people would provide for them (Luke 9; 3-5 & 10:4-7) "Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; ....When you enter a house.....stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages...."

1 Timothy 5:17-18 Paul describes"elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, 'Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,' ((Duet: 25:4))and the worker deserves his wages"

Paul also speaks about this in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14 where he asserts the "right of support" from the people who are being served (ironically he also assures the Corinthians that he is not demanding that right) and he does a lot of self supporting.

 

The Levite priests also were supported by the Israeli community.

1-They were given all the offerings and holy gifts, Num. 18:8,19; 5:9-10

2-Every grain, sin, and guilt offering was theirs, Num. 18:9

3-All wave offerings belonged to them, Num. 18:11

4-The first of the ripe fruits was for them, Num. 18:12-13

5-They had a right to every devoted thing, Num. 18:14

6-The first issue of the womb, both of man and animal, was theirs, num. 18:15-17

7-They had access to the meat of all sacrificed animals, Num. 18:18

8-All of the tithe was given to them, Num. 18:21-24

 

Not scripturally based, but how did Jesus and his disciples eat? I've been taught that many of the devout women that followed them around provided for their food (again, not direct from scripture though)

 

Food for thought.

 

Jacqui

Edited July 10, 2010 by jacqui in mo

[Daisy]

I'm not sure what size churches you've been attending, but my dad has been a pastor all his life, and we NEVER lived in big houses. In fact, all the houses that I have owned as an adult have been bigger than any parsonage we ever lived in. I guess I tend to agree with the poster who said that a pastor is always on call. My dad spent WELL more than 20 hours a week at his job. It was more like 60 plus plus.

 

See, this was my growing up and I feel the total opposite. I think if my Dad had worked an outside job, maybe he would have done better at balancing his ministry life. I never cared about the lack of money (course now all these mega churches pay mega salaries). I grew up very frustrated at the fact that my Dad was constantly gone doing church work. Perhaps he would have been the same way with another job but I can't help but think if everyone was volunteering at the church, more people would see the need for participating.

 

I have negative experiences with pastors though. I know too many pastors who went on power trips. Too many who were over-worked because, "Hey, the pastor gets paid to do that.". Too many who crashed and burned. Too many who abused their authority. Too many who lived outside the realm of accountability. I'm convinced some of these issues would be avoided if pastors weren't so insulated from regular life (as compared to full-time ministry).

[Daisy]

Ahhh, perhaps it is just my own wishful thinking.

 

I've been in the inner circle too many times and heard the bickering over multi-million dollar budgets (since left that denomination altogether).

 

My thoughts on the subject are very tainted by my negative experiences.

 

I realize and appreciate all the hard work that full-time ministers do. I joyfully pay my tithes to support my church and my pastor.

 

I just question, at times, if it is the best way.

[Jugglin'5]

I'm convinced some of these issues would be avoided if pastors weren't so insulated from regular life (as compared to full-time ministry).

 

I think this is a problem with the college-to-seminary-to-pastor model. If either of my sons is called, I would want him to work some years in the regular business world first. Number one: to understand what most of his flock experiences day to day, and number two: to have some work experience to fall back on. I think pastors can get trapped, and that comes with its own set of temptations. If a pastor feels like he can't preach something because he could lose his job, well, that is bad. I think having a skill to fall back on can be very freeing.

[manylilblessings]

See, this was my growing up and I feel the total opposite. I think if my Dad had worked an outside job, maybe he would have done better at balancing his ministry life. I never cared about the lack of money (course now all these mega churches pay mega salaries). I grew up very frustrated at the fact that my Dad was constantly gone doing church work. Perhaps he would have been the same way with another job but I can't help but think if everyone was volunteering at the church, more people would see the need for participating.

 

You have captured the heart of many preacher's kids. My mother is one. She was grateful I married a man of faith, but not a pastor. I don't think it's God's heart for the church to come before the family. My DH is the director of a ministry. It's his policy that the staff's families come first; to the extent that they are welcomed to leave work to take care of them if need be. No questions....

[SailorMom]

Insulated from regular life?

 

My Mother in Law is a pastor - she spent years getting her masters in Divinity after leaving her teaching job. She spends well over 60 hours a week - all hours of the day, weekends, holidays - supporting her church community, writing sermnons, and helping out in her very small church. She is also active in the community and attends meetings of the City Council, is an on-call (unpaid) minister for the local hospital, and leads woprship at a local ski resort Sunday afternoons (also - unpaid). Outside of her paid duties to the church, she also leads youth groups on camp outs, and helps shovel snow, fix decks, paint, and landscape around the church grounds.

Her husband is an accountant, and while they live fine (not extravagant at all - but fine), it is for the most part his income that provides their way of life.

As for being insulated, she is more active in her community than anyone else I know and I fail to see how this could insulate her from anything.

[Sue G in PA]

FWIW...I would never desire my pastor to live in poverty. The middle road, Remudamom, is exactly what there needs to be. Not paying a pastor seems wrong to me, but my experiences have been on the one extreme of "too much". I was honestly just making a comment about that extreme b/c it really did rub me the wrong way. There does need to be a middle ground so I wholeheartedly agree with Remudamom. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my comments...it was just my experiences and certainly not indicative of ALL pastors. I just wanted to offer that extreme, kwim?

[jacqui in mo]

Scripture points to you being on the right track. Matt 10:7,8 "You received free, give free." Jesus set the pattern of ministering for no financial return. The 1st century Christians followed that pattern closely, working secularly to take care of their needs as they preached and taught. They weren't paid for sharing God's Word (2 Cor 2:17).

 

This is scripture being taken out of context. Matt 10: 9-10 goes on to say the disciples, who were being sent out on a missionary journey, shouldn't take money with them for the journey, because "the worker is worth his keep" (vs 10) The towns they went to were to support them.

 

Yes in 2 Cor. 2:17 Paul explains he hasn't relied on support (and reiterates that in many places) but he doesn't say anything about how others should follow that example. In 1 Cor. 9 he actually argues strongly that those who preach the gospel should live by the means of the gospel. v 11-12 "If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more?"

 

Jacqui

 

ETA: added some clarity

Edited July 10, 2010 by jacqui in mo

[Daisy]

Insulated from regular life?

 

My Mother in Law is a pastor - she spent years getting her masters in Divinity after leaving her teaching job. She spends well over 60 hours a week - all hours of the day, weekends, holidays - supporting her church community, writing sermnons, and helping out in her very small church. She is also active in the community and attends meetings of the City Council, is an on-call (unpaid) minister for the local hospital, and leads woprship at a local ski resort Sunday afternoons (also - unpaid). Outside of her paid duties to the church, she also leads youth groups on camp outs, and helps shovel snow, fix decks, paint, and landscape around the church grounds.

Her husband is an accountant, and while they live fine (not extravagant at all - but fine), it is for the most part his income that provides their way of life.

As for being insulated, she is more active in her community than anyone else I know and I fail to see how this could insulate her from anything.

 

You MIL is a living a very different experience than what I grew up with. I applaud her efforts to impact her community.

[CLHCO]

Years ago I attended a home church. The leader was not paid, the vision was for volunteers, out of Christian love, in a family of believers. We eventually had to leave. We adored the people but the person leading it initially, had a large family, home to pay for, and a full time job. He had zero time to do the study or attention needed to make it really work without neglecting his children, many of the others did not have the leadership experience, baby Christians, and he would have to delegate to those with no knowledge because he couldn't prepare anything. It was nothing more than a bible study of novices after a time. No missions were supported. Big dreams of helping neighbors never really panned out. Little true organization. Idealism hit reality and we learned from this.

 

I am happy to pay the salary of my current pastor. He spends hours caring spiritually for those in need, hours in study for the sermons to give us real meat, not milk, dealing with church business and issues, etc. He works like a dog and I have tremendous respect for him.

 

Yes, I also think it is biblical, as already explained by others.

[Jugglin'5]

Years ago I attended a home church. The leader was not paid, the vision was for volunteers, out of Christian love, in a family of believers. We eventually had to leave. We adored the people but the person leading it initially, had a large family, home to pay for, and a full time job. He had zero time to do the study or attention needed to make it really work without neglecting his children, many of the others did not have the leadership experience, baby Christians, and he would have to delegate to those with no knowledge because he couldn't prepare anything. It was nothing more than a bible study of novices after a time. No missions were supported. Big dreams of helping neighbors never really panned out. Little true organization. Idealism hit reality and we learned from this.

 

I am happy to pay the salary of my current pastor. He spends hours caring spiritually for those in need, hours in study for the sermons to give us real meat, not milk, dealing with church business and issues, etc. He works like a dog and I have tremendous respect for him.

 

Yes, I also think it is biblical, as already explained by others.

 

We had the same experience. We managed to re-organize and start paying our pastor. It was an eye-opening experience for sure.

[FO4UR]

I'm a PW. A few thoughts...

 

If your church is mis-using money. SPEAK UP or leave. Please don't put an unnecessary burden on ALL pastors b/c a few are in it "for shameful gain!" It happens, I know!

 

Most bi-vocational churches I've been blessed to know WISH they could pay their pastor FT so he could do all the things laid on his heart to do...things the church needs and no one else can really do. Most bi-vo pastors I've met are over-burdened, often working CRAZY hours with no break...it's not healthy.

 

Many pastors are highly educated in Theology and Biblical Languages. My pastor dh is THE ONLY PERSON in our entire church who knows how to translate the Greek and Hebrew. That's *kinda* important when preparing a sermon.

 

Speaking of sermons...these are not 20minute speeches that are whipped up in an hour the night before. One of dh's prof's encourages pastors to take 20 HOURS a WEEK in sermon prep, and dh has told me that to "do it right" it really does take that much time to study the passage and write the actual sermon. Granted, not all pastors spend this much time in sermon prep...and that's not to mention the administrative jobs (which are just as time consuming) or the visits to the sick/elderly (which are also just as time consuming).

 

When we took this position, the pulpit committee specifically stated that they were paying him a FT salary b/c they wanted his T.I.M.E!

 

This whole thread is unsettling to me. Can my dh provide with a secular job and be a pastor? yes. There is a greater cost, however.

 

I do agree that some good things would come out of not getting a salary from the church, mainly avoiding an attitude that our family purchases are material for gossip. I sacrificed to buy a zoo pass for our family...and got flack/gossip about that. I am overly self-conscious about what I wear now...I have to look nice, but certain eyes see $$$ signs and add up the cost of my outfits. They watch what I bring to potlucks. I seriously avoid having people in our home for the same reasons. Getting our salary from a secular job would alleviate most of that, I think.

[Danestress]

The kind of pastor that works be for many churches is more of a full time commitment.

 

Our church is medium sized - maybe 75 families. I would say 50 attend regularly.

 

Our priest preaches most weeks (we have a couple of ordained ministers who sometimes fill in for him. These guys have other jobs). He does not deliver a simple, short homily. He really is teaching and preaching, and I think he puts a lot of time into his sermons, which are about 40 minutes long. I get a lot out of that time. I am not willing to sit and listen to someone for 40 minutes who has nothing to say and gave no thought to saying it well.

 

He makes hospital visits, teaches during the week, builds relationships within the community, stays in touch with what is happening in the church finances and other administrative stuff (though some good volunteers handle some of that) and disciples leaders. He travels from time to time on church business, and helps plant churches. He handles illnesses and deaths, marriages and baptisms, and probably counseling too. I am not sure what life looks life every day for him, but I know he is pretty busy but also tries to be available for his "flock" and also his young family. He is genuinely caring and one of those people who can be very "present" when needed.

 

We pay him a decent wage. We made a commitment to him that we were not going to call him to our church and then not pay him enough to have a modest house in a modest neighborhood and buy medications for his kids when they need it. We are not willing to have a pastor choose between the light bill and feeding his family, but that's because most of the congregation doesn't have to live that way. Honestly, we have supplemented several families during financial crisis too.

 

We do not pay his wife a salary, and therefore we do not expect her to "deliver" services. However, she is a loving, giving person and has found niches in which she can serve according to her abilities. She has a young family, though, and if she bowed out of some duties, no one would object. I personally think that if you want a pastor's wife to fill some specific role that requires a lot of her time and energy, than you should pay her.

 

I don't think this is the only way to do things. I think it's fine to run things on a volunteer basis if that's what people feel led to do. I think a pretty wide range of church models can please the Lord.

 

Our pastor lives a pretty modest life. I have no idea, though, what his real economic situation is. It's entirely possible that he has inherited large sums of money or that his wife has. You would not know if from the way they live, but I guess it's possible. If he went out and bought a beach house, I would be surprised by would not begrudge him. We don't pay him enough for that (by a very very long shot) but he could have other sources of wealth that I don't know about. Lots of people have trust funds or wealthy parents. I don't believe we asked him that in the interview process.

[kesmom]

I haven't read any replies, but my immediate thought is yes they should absolutely be paid. I cannot imagine not supporting my pastor and his family.

[JudoMom]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

And shame on you.

 

:iagree:

 

Our pastor couldn't do many of the things he does if he had to have another full time job. Our church has chosen to pay him enough so he can serve our church and so his wife can stay home and raise their children. They do not live extravagantly, nor do they live the life of paupers.

 

Pastors may not have been paid in ancient times, but there was also more of a sharing of resources (places to sleep, food freely given, etc).

[kelouis75]

Here's another thought... There has been some mega church bashing-- some of it is well deserved, because a lot of greed has come to the light.

 

But we also have to remember that not all pastors with large congregations are the same. Some of these pastors get money from their books-- not the tithing church...

 

Should they get paid for their books? Should the Christian book publishing industry exist? What about music? What about the growing movie industry?

 

Just a thought. I know that I have greatly benefited (spiritually) from all of these endeavors.

[pdalley]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

And shame on you.

 

:iagree: The Pastor we had for 13 years was the most humble man I've ever met in any vocation. He lived simply and humbly and more than gave back - money wise and effort wise - just about every penny we paid him. I was proud to help pay his salary. He was hugely involved - not only in our church - but fostering good racial relations in our area, disaster relief efforts, repairing homes of people who couldn't afford it, a vegetable garden than fed a lot of needy people, if any of us had surgery - he was there. He also managed to teach Bible studies and get his Doctorate while he was there. He drives a ten year old truck with over 200,000 miles on it.

 

He lived in a parsonage that was a nice clean very modest home and was happy there. He raised his two kids there and they graduated from high school and college. In fact we worried at times because we felt he worked too hard.

 

The new Pastor seems to be just like him in that regard - only difference is she is a female. I can't imagine not paying them.

[the4Rs]

Thank you for all who have responded....I truly appreciate the sciptures supplied here. I will be rereading them in context tonight before bed.

 

This has been a blessing to me to read. There have been some financial situations within our church, surrounding churches and my old church growing up recently that have made me jaded. I guess too many in my personal life have made me question the whole thing but I need to step back and realize these are isolated incidences...not the norm.

 

One thought though...

 

Shouldn't we be able to call on any brother or sister in Christ in a time of emergency and they should drop everything to be there? If they really care they would be there ....why should it be delegated to a pastor only as his responsibility. We have failed each other as brothers and sisters if we are not there for each other.....and that means at 2am. As a pastor, would he still be there if he wasn't paid...if someone's child or spouse had died or was gravely sick or wounded, woudn't he come because he loves them and wants to grieve with them? Of course he would. Then that shouldn't be part of his job description but I read countless times that many of you count that as his job. Isnt' it all of our jobs? If my friends can't count on me in a time of crisis...then shame on me.

 

Again, thanks so much for all your replies.

[SonshineLearner]

 

Can you or your DH read the Bible in Greek and Hebrew and use exegesis tools discerningly to teach the Scripture to people? Every week, 3 or 4x a week?

 

 

 

This may be one of the differences. My dad went to Seminary, and by qualifications could pastor. Instead, he uses his skills to write books, teach Seminary, and take groups to Israel with side trips....(i wanna go someday!!). BUT, if a pastor needs no education beyond... well... say highschool.... then they have no loans to pay... and perhaps can be paid nothing. My father studies languages, how to give a sermon that can stretch ...but not put to sleep. How to counsel... ect... He was seriously looking at being able to help others study the word... beyond a typical Bible study.

 

I believe that pastors should be able to live about the same as the middle of his congregation.... (at least salary wise)... what they do with their money is their business...

[Cricket]

My dad was a pastor. He was on call 24/7. When he first started out, we were provided with a house and he was paid $600 a month. We could barely afford to eat (we *had* to plant a huge garden every summer in order to supplement what we could buy) and had to get state assistance in order to afford heating fuel for the winter. With three kids at home, my mom had to go out and get a full-time job. My dad never complained but when a few businessmen started coming to our church, they told the congregation that they should be embarrassed at how they treated my father. Apparently we were expected to live in poverty. I think it is strange to expect someone to put in more time than most people's full-time jobs and not help support his family. There aren't enough hours in a week to be a full-time pastor to a church and also work a full-time job to pay the bills. I can't imagine a pastor putting off the needs of his congregation because he has to work. And when would he ever have time for his family if he was working two full-time jobs? The only exception I could see is if there was no pastor but a group of elders who equally shared the pastoring responsibilities. Then it would be more like volunteering some hours a week.

[pdalley]

Thank you for all who have responded....I truly appreciate the sciptures supplied here. I will be rereading them in context tonight before bed.

 

This has been a blessing to me to read. There have been some financial situations within our church, surrounding churches and my old church growing up recently that have made me jaded. I guess too many in my personal life have made me question the whole thing but I need to step back and realize these are isolated incidences...not the norm.

 

One thought though...

 

Shouldn't we be able to call on any brother or sister in Christ in a time of emergency and they should drop everything to be there? If they really care they would be there ....why should it be delegated to a pastor only as his responsibility. We have failed each other as brothers and sisters if we are not there for each other.....and that means at 2am. As a pastor, would he still be there if he wasn't paid...if someone's child or spouse had died or was gravely sick or wounded, woudn't he come because he loves them and wants to grieve with them? Of course he would. Then that shouldn't be part of his job description but I read countless times that many of you count that as his job. Isnt' it all of our jobs? If my friends can't count on me in a time of crisis...then shame on me.

 

Again, thanks so much for all your replies.

 

I forgot to add that he performed marriages in our church and he required a lot of premarital counseling beforehand. That is certainly something I'm not qualified to do. Or to give marriage advice or biblical counseling. Nor do I have the ability to translate Greek or Hebrew and teach the Word.

 

And no, I do not expect people to drop everything to be there - church or no. It's nice if I'm in a crisis and they do but I don't expect it. Your mileage may vary. No one - thankfully - expects me to do that either.

 

In the Old Testament an entire tribe was dedicated to leading the people in worship. They were supported through offerings. Their every need was supplied so that they could serve the Lord with no distractions. Money replaced animals as currency in most places. I just don't see the difference.

 

And yes, I've seen corruption in the church. It's everywhere - absolute power corrupts absolutely. I haven't seen it in our church but I realize it's there. I can't imagine punishing the good ones too.

[jacqui in mo]

BUT, if a pastor needs no education beyond... well... say highschool.... then they have no loans to pay... and perhaps can be paid nothing.

 

By this argument, you could say that anyone without a college degree should consider working for nothing! Pastors who put in the work of teaching from the scriptures should be paid "for the worker deserves his wages" (Luke 10:7) The disciples and 1st century Christians didn't have MDiv (or whatever degree it is) degrees. (although the disciples studied with the best!! ;o)

I believe that pastors should be able to live about the same as the middle of his congregation.... (at least salary wise)... what they do with their money is their business...

 

Although the Bible doesn't designate how much a pastor should be paid, it does speak to generosity to such workers (OT Levites and NT Paul thanks to those who support him). The bible also speaks about greed (for everyone) and prudence. A pastor has to struggle with those issues just as much probably as any of the rest of us.

 

Jacqui

Edited July 10, 2010 by jacqui in mo

[LizzyBee]

One thought though...

 

Shouldn't we be able to call on any brother or sister in Christ in a time of emergency and they should drop everything to be there? If they really care they would be there ....why should it be delegated to a pastor only as his responsibility. We have failed each other as brothers and sisters if we are not there for each other.....and that means at 2am. As a pastor, would he still be there if he wasn't paid...if someone's child or spouse had died or was gravely sick or wounded, woudn't he come because he loves them and wants to grieve with them? Of course he would. Then that shouldn't be part of his job description but I read countless times that many of you count that as his job. Isnt' it all of our jobs? If my friends can't count on me in a time of crisis...then shame on me.

 

 

This is the way it should be in an ideal world, but it isn't reality for most of us. My reality is that I work an outside job nearly full-time while homeschooling two of our kids. Sometimes at 2 am, I am still at work because I homeschool my kids during the day when most people in my profession are working. I'd love to "be there" for my friends more than I am, but I function in perpetual exhaustion already. And no, I don't work in order to afford an exorbitant lifestyle because I put material things ahead of family and friends; I work to pay the bills and we live very frugally.

 

Our church staff are humble, smart, and incredibly talented. I am happy to contribute toward their salaries.

[OnTheBrink]

I think you're all insane. Pastoring takes time, and while vacation homes and extravagant spending is on one end of the spectrum, condemning your pastor to living in poverty shows a meaness and smallness that is repugnant.

 

There is a middle road people.

 

John 10:12 The laborer is worthy of his hire.

 

And shame on you.

 

:iagree:

[TXMomof4]

I'm slowly reading and digesting a book right now called Radical Restoration - A call for pure and simple Christianity. The author is F. LaGuard Smith. It is written concerning the churches of Christ, but it applies to all denominations well in my opinion. It truly is fascinating to think about what our churches would look like if we practiced true first century Christianity. He argues that the elders were the spiritual guides for the church and were called to be the teachers in the early church. We've turned them into more of the CEOs of the church and left the spiritual education of the church to the pastor/pulpit minister/preacher (choose your title to fit your denomination).

 

It really is interesting to consider what the impact of the church could be if we returned truly to our roots instead of trying to fit the church into society now.

[Jean in Newcastle]

We're in this bind now. Dh did go to seminary and got his MDiv and most of his ThM (he didn't finish the thesis because his mom got very ill). He is a gifted preacher. He would love to pastor full time but he has a family to take care of. Our little church (which really wants him as pastor since the current pastor is 74), can't afford to pay him a full salary. Many of my friends who are pastor's wives work fulltime so that their husband can pastor. I can't do that. For one thing my health precludes that. For another, both dh and I feel that homeschooling our kids (and me being home to do that) is more important. He has cut down his hours at work so that he can preach as much as he can but money is super tight for us. We are praying that if God wants him to use his God-given gift within the church that God will provide a way financially for him to do so.

[Slartibartfast]

I definately think the pastor should be paid. It isn't like it is only a Sunday gig. They preside over weddings and funerals, they spend time counseling the members and a host of things. I dislike mega churches and I do feel ministers commanding huge salaries and just plain wrong.

 

But, I don't think it is ok to just expect someone to live in poverty.I wouldn't want an uneducated preacher and preachers aren't denied having a spouse and children.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Sis