Teaching Textbooks for a math-gifted 7 year old?

[Cee Cee]

We just completed BJU 4th grade math. We liked it. My ds would like basically any math curriculum. I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. BJU 5 may be an option as I like to stick to math curriculum. I'm not sold on Singapore, though I might be convinced :)

 

Anyway, he took the pretest at the Teaching Textbooks site. He liked the sample chapters they have online. However, he scored perfectly for 7th grade and scored well enough (according to them) for pre-algebra. There really was not that much in these tests that we didn't cover in 4th grade math.

 

Is this curriculum more remedial? Anyone out there using it with a gifted child? Anyone use it long term and can comment.

 

So, he's 7. He likes math but he is not ready for dry textbooks at his young age.

 

Where do I go from here?

 

Cee Cee

[MaryM]

I haven't seen any of the TT books other than Algebra 2 so keep that in mind! The developers supposedly did teach to gifted kids but I wonder if this resulting program is really "for" gifted since it seems so much easier and moves more slowly than others.

 

Singapore, othoh, is outstanding for bright kids! We started it very young also and have been pleased with the foundation it laid. Didn't use the high school level though.

 

Mary

[ArwenA]

I am planning on using TT with my math gifted DD. She is using Saxon 7/6 right now and is 9. She would like to start algebra in the coming school year, I'm not sure if we'll do pre-algebra or alg.1.

I wouldn't call TT remedial but it also isn't designed for gifted students. Still, I think it will be a good way to go. TT covers what I think are necessary subjects for a high school math curriculum. It does not have highly difficult questions. This is where your ds may have trouble, he'll be board. Unless you can step in and help.

Our house is bulging with math books, manipulatives, games and any other math thing you can imagine. DD will have no trouble finding ways to supplement TT. Since she is an independent, visual learner I think TT will be a good fit for her.

Given how your DS did one the placement tests you may want to look more at the table of contents and sample lessons. Pre-Algebra has lots of review at the beginning so your DS may have no trouble with it. If he only just passed you may wish to use Math 7 with him.

 

So, I haven't used TT but those are my thoughts on it for gifted kids, my one in particular.:D

[Guest Lorna]

I second the Singapore suggestion. If your child is ready for Algebra at this age then a placement test would put him in at a challeging level. My husband studied mathematics at a top level university and finds Singapore extremely challeging. It tests mathematical thinking and not simply arithmetic and the ability to follow algorithms. It would be a disaster, IMO, to put a math-gifted child onto a route that wont help him with higher level thinking in future. We are on high school level maths. Our daughter was tested as being exeptionally gifted in maths at school and this series certainly challenges her. Her favourite section is the problem solving.

[Desert Rat]

Lorna,

We'll be finishing 6 in Singapore this year with Huck. I'm looking for the next step. How long did you use Singapore with your daughter? What did you move to after she wrapped that up? Have you used Singapore after year 6? He will be 8 and was off the charts in maths when tested. Oh, and I'm math challenged. :o) So, that means I'll be learning along with him. I wish I had paid attention in high school!

Hope I didn't highjack that thread!

TIA

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I second the Singapore suggestion. If your child is ready for Algebra at this age then a placement test would put him in at a challeging level. My husband studied mathematics at a top level university and finds Singapore extremely challeging. It tests mathematical thinking and not simply arithmetic and the ability to follow algorithms. It would be a disaster, IMO, to put a math-gifted child onto a route that wont help him with higher level thinking in future. We are on high school level maths. Our daughter was tested as being exeptionally gifted in maths at school and this series certainly challenges her. Her favourite section is the problem solving.

 

Let me chime in in agreement here.

 

Singapore. Absolutely.

[Cee Cee]

ArwenA,

 

If the problems are not that challenging, how did you decide to use TT? I like the presentation since ds is so young...he enjoyed it.

 

We have a very math-y house as well.

 

Cee Cee

[Cee Cee]

Singapore Fans,

 

Thanks for the input. I wonder if backing up to an easier level than the placement test (for Singapore) indicates would help my young son "get" the Singapore approach.

 

Do you use it on its own or with something else?

 

Is it user-friendly to teach?

 

I'll explore this option some more.

 

Thanks,

 

Cee Cee

[Cee Cee]

Lorna,

 

That's exactly my concern...just learning how to do math and not "why". BJU has done a great job with explaining the "hows" and "whys". However, the fit is not quite right, it seems.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

Cee Cee

[ArwenA]

ArwenA,

 

If the problems are not that challenging, how did you decide to use TT? I like the presentation since ds is so young...he enjoyed it.

 

We have a very math-y house as well.

 

Cee Cee

 

I think TT is great for the below average to average student. I've been thinking a lot about what to use for high school math, ever since DD9 was really little.:)

Like you said, the presentation is good for young kids, DD loved it as well. This was a "selling" (I have bought TT yet) point for me, the fact that it wasn't a dry, dull textbook. There is a sense of humor! No matter how brilliant a child is they are still a KID. I showed DD math textbooks I had in university and she burst into tears saying "Mom, I thought math was fun.". So I think TT will be a good fit for her, it's not boring and she loves it.

That is the key part, she loves it. I've always emphasized the fun in math and this is what she wants, it's almost what I want (just boot up the question difficulty) so I'm going with.

[Storm Bay]

Teaching Textbook was far too easy and simplistic for my 12 yo (we bought it for the teaching part because she was frustrated with one part of Lial's and hates my way of doing Algebra), but I think for a 7 yo it would be a lot of fun. However, it doesn't have the meat of Lial's, and that doesn't have the meat of Gelfand's Algebra. But Gelfand's gets into the theory behind it and has some very long problems, which your ds may or may not be ready for at 7. We haven't done Singapore after 6 yet, but most likely will for my 9 yo. She's not nearly as motivated in math as your ds, and won't be ready for Algebra until she's 10, or perhaps 11 as she's deeply involved in history and art right now.

[Myrtle]

Cee Cee,

 

I sent you a list of links and one of them was wrong. Here is the correct link to Art of Problem Solving.

[gardenschooler]

While you're deciding where to go from here, have you checked these out? http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=080630&netp_id=209653&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=details

 

Very challenging (my problem-solver loved them!), and even interesting. You also might want to look at the 5th & 6th 'Stretch Your Mind' books.

 

I know you said BJU wasn't a good fit, but also, take a look at their 7th grade book 'Fundamentals in Math'. It might appeal to you, and it does have some more challenging problems, lots of word problems, geometry, problem-solving, etc. Or even their 6th grade book coupled with a few 'Stretch Your Mind' may be a good fit.

 

I'm sure this comes nowhere close to Singapore, but just wanted to offer you another option!

[Nan in Mass]

Have you looked at Singapore's NEM? I wouldn't suggest starting there, necessarily, but NEM1 is a combination of pre-algebra, algebra, and geometry. It has some fun problems at the end of every chapter like:

 

In a chess tournament, each competitor is to play with every other competitor once only. If there are 12 players, how many games are played?

 

This year, a man's age is a multiple of 3. Next year, his age will be a multiple of 5. The year after next, his age will be a multiple of 13. Find his age.

 

Mary has 20 cups of pecans. She wants to make as many fruit cakes as she can with the pecans. Each cake requires 2 1/4 cups of pecans. After making the cakes, how many cups of pecans will she have left?

 

(Just a few examples)

 

It is written for a younger child (7th grade). Each chapter begins with a comic. The mix of algebra and geometry keeps it from getting too heavy. You get to practise the algebra when you do the geometry. There is a lot of construction in the geometry, which makes it fun. You get to draw things with your protractor and ruler and triangles and compass. There are sections on symmetry which have you cutting paper, tessellations, and scaling maps up and down. Definately not dry math. It explains the whys and talks about how there are many right ways to do a problem. Definately more interesting than a college math book GRIN.

-Nan

[nmoira]

With a math adept child, I'd work on finding other things to do then to advance using a less than challenging curriculum for the sake of moving on. What about taking a couple months to work through Primary Challenge Math by Zaccaro while you decide where to go next? It's a great book and might introduce a few new concepts.

 

I also recommend Singapore. My 6yo is doing well with Singapore 3B; during the "boring" stretches, we just take things more slowly. Instead of the workbook, we use Intensive Practice and Challenging Word Problems (just the Challenging ones, not revision). I don't know how easy it is to ease into the program at 5th grade, but Jenny on the Singapore Math boards is very helpful and knowledgeable.

[Mx5]

We just completed BJU 4th grade math. We liked it. My ds would like basically any math curriculum. I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. BJU 5 may be an option as I like to stick to math curriculum. I'm not sold on Singapore, though I might be convinced :)

 

Anyway, he took the pretest at the Teaching Textbooks site. He liked the sample chapters they have online. However, he scored perfectly for 7th grade and scored well enough (according to them) for pre-algebra. There really was not that much in these tests that we didn't cover in 4th grade math.

 

Is this curriculum more remedial? Anyone out there using it with a gifted child? Anyone use it long term and can comment.

 

So, he's 7. He likes math but he is not ready for dry textbooks at his young age.

 

Where do I go from here?

 

Cee Cee

 

You can download ebooks of Math Mammoth for a very reasonable cost.

 

 

As for TT, we have used TT pre-algebra, Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry and TT math 7. This is NOT a remedial program, despite what people think.

 

My teens score in the 97th - 98th percentile in math scores on standardized tests. They are in 10th & 12th grade.

 

I love TT and so do my kids. My senior is now doing Thinkwell's precalc with few problems.

 

Go with what your son likes.

[nmoira]

 

As for TT, we have used TT pre-algebra, Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry and TT math 7. This is NOT a remedial program, despite what people think.

Aside from some comments in this thread, I've not heard that it's remedial, but rather that it's not terribly challenging, especially for math adept kids. Since you've used it, maybe you could shed more light on the issue.

[Charon]

Based on what I've seen, if you took 100 homeschooling families and they made their kids sit down and do TT and then compared them to 100 randomly selected public school students via a standardized test, my impression is that they would average about the same. So, I, personally, would not really call it "remedial math" (although, I might characterize it that way while engaging in a little hyperbole). What I would be shocked as sh*t to find out is that it really is actually, in some sense, "good". (I have perused their website fairly thoroughly -- it really looks pretty typical of math programs.)

 

For a bright kid, you can go one of two basic ways: theoretical science or math. I call it "theoretical science" because that's what it really is -- not math. What TT seems to lack compared to Singapore or other programs are problems like "Prove that a*b < (a+b)/2," which though it may look like a "proof", is really just an algebraic manipulation (a tough abstract calculation). But, nevertheless, it is a fairly difficult one and an important result. Or, another problem might be

 

"A swimming pool is divided into two equal sections. Each section has its own water supply pipe. To fill one section (using its pipe) you need a hours. To fill the other section you need b hours. How many hours would you need if you turn on both pipes and remove the wall dividing the pool into sections?"

 

From what I can tell, TT is really pretty light on such problems and/or really coaches a student through it too much. (That's another thing about the TT debates -- "really teaches" my ds math frequently translates into "coaches them through everything". It means something completely different when a student is truly able to figure it out on their own than it does if they are just doing a specific class of problems they have been systematically groomed for.) I believe both of these problems are in Gelfand and probably can be found in other "challenging" programs. Singapore, in particular, is renowned for its hard word problems. (On the other hand, it coaches its students through them a lot, too, with specific tricks for doing classes of problems.)

 

The other direction to go in is more of a pure theoretical math direction that almost no one -- not even most mathematicians -- do. In fact, the first problem above, could be an example, here, if done in a certain way. For instance, on a recent road trip, I had the following discussion with my 11 yo son. I said to suppose that I just had a collection of numbers, P (whatever we decide "the numbers" are). Suppose all I know about P are the following two things:

 

1) For any number, a, one and only one of the following is true: a is in P, a is the additive identity, or the additive inverse of a is in P.

 

and

 

2) P is closed under addition and multiplication. (That is, for all a and b in P, a+b is in P and ab is in P.)

 

Then, can -1 be in P? It was totally Socratic, and believe it or not, he came up with the reasons why -1 cannot be in P. The discussion when something like

 

Me: "Can P={-1}?"

Him: "No, then -1*-1=1 would have to be in P."

Me: "Then, let P={-1,1}."

Him: "Then, 1+1=2 would have to be in P."

...

 

(And it kept going, actually, until he finally had to resort to (1) above, but he did get there, pretty much on his own.)

 

At any rate, I give this example to prove the viability of what I am talking about. Even in programs like Singapore or Foerster's, say, they will approach "greater than" and "less than" heuristically. They will do something like show the student a number line and how the larger numbers are to the right and the smaller numbers are to the left. That begs the question -- you essentially have to already know what "greater than" and "less than" are to "get it". (And, fortunately, most kids do have some intuition built up about it, so it's not that big of a problem.) On the other hand, there is a book by this guy Beckenbach that handles inequality axiomatically with the very set P that I mention above. A number is called "greater than" another number if their difference is in P, for instance. So, this is another way to go -- more rigor. (Clearly, I favor the more rigor. The other way might be great training for science or an even better IQ test, or something, but it actually often even interferes with a student's ability to do rigorous math if pursued too much.)

 

TT doesn't seem like it is really very good at either which doesn't necessarily make it such a bad program, but it does probably make it a poor choice for challenging an advanced student.

[Mx5]

Aside from some comments in this thread, I've not heard that it's remedial, but rather that it's not terribly challenging, especially for math adept kids. Since you've used it, maybe you could shed more light on the issue.

 

My now senior son has always been mathematiclly adept. He found TT to be just challenging enough. When he ran into trouble, the solution cds were worth their weight in gold.

 

My sophomore dd has never been mathematically adept; proficient, yet it took work on her part. She, too, loves TT, esp. when she gets stuck.

 

I can't go into detail about other programs. All I can do is tell you that my oldest kids have done very well on required standardized tests... 97th- 98th percentile.

 

My greatest frustration is how people who have no experience with TT assume it is sub-par, or not for mathematically adept students. My subjective experience with 2 very different learners, utilizing several TT products has shown me that it is, in fact, a very solid curriculum.

[Cee Cee]

I have received so many responses so far. Thank you! I have started to look up each and every reference given.

 

I'm still not sure what to do. My son intuitively understands math. I was considering TT just because ds thought it looked like fun. I was thinking if he was really enjoying it, then we must be doing the right thing.

 

Now, I fear that may not be true.

 

Perhaps I should use a more standard progam (like our current BJU) but add in some of the more challenging problems from Singapore or another reference.

 

Perhaps I should switch to Singapore.

 

Perhaps TT (fun for him) and Singapore

 

 

I wish it were more clear cut.

 

For those of you with extremely math-inclined children, what would you suggest?

 

Blessings,

Cee Cee

[Cee Cee]

There have been many responses that suggest Singapore.

 

Would someone please, in a few sentences, tell me why I might want to choose Singapore.

 

I chose BJU becasue my research told me that it was very much like Singapore, only with more practice and a more in depth TE.

 

Cee Cee

[nmoira]

For those of you with extremely math-inclined children, what would you suggest?

I haven't used BJU, so can't do a direct comparison. I can tell you how I've more or less mapped out my eldest's near math future. She'll finish Singapore 5B then either do 6A/6B followed by Mathematics 6, or skip to Mathematics 6. The choice will depend on her level maturity at that time; she will have input. After Mathematics 6 will come some Art of Problem Solving courses. That's as far ahead as I'm willing to tentatively plan. We will also continue to supplement with the Zaccaro books.

[Guest Lorna]

Lorna,

We'll be finishing 6 in Singapore this year with Huck. I'm looking for the next step. How long did you use Singapore with your daughter? What did you move to after she wrapped that up? Have you used Singapore after year 6? He will be 8 and was off the charts in maths when tested. Oh, and I'm math challenged. :o) So, that means I'll be learning along with him. I wish I had paid attention in high school!

Hope I didn't highjack that thread!

TIA

 

We have stayed with Singapore and moved onto their New Elementary Maths series. It has a good range of questions that include the vry challenging. The primary math course has been an excellent foundation for this. Sometimes I think the reason our daughter tested so highly in math at school (aged about eight) was that she has an incredible memory. I am not so sure she would have continued to do well if she had not had Singapore Math. She needed a course that was more challenging in higher-level thinking in problem solving etc. That is what she gets and loves with NEM. I am very glad we choose this course.

Having said that, it is a challege for parents. I generally leave dd to it but I come unstuck if I haven't been following things closely and she comes up with a question. I always have dh to bail me out though. :o

[Desert Rat]

Thanks for getting back to me. I didn't realize NEM was part of Singapore. LOL I felt a little silly over the weekend after doing some research on line. :o) There's just so much to learn about this home learnin'!

Thanks for the insight. Much obliged!

[Charon]

There have been many responses that suggest Singapore.

 

Would someone please, in a few sentences, tell me why I might want to choose Singapore.

 

I chose BJU becasue my research told me that it was very much like Singapore, only with more practice and a more in depth TE.

 

Cee Cee

 

For one thing, take a look at the Singapore placement test into NEM3. It covers roughly the same topics as, for instance, the TT placement test into their precalc. But if you look at the problems, TT is just a lot easier. Most other programs -- in fact, virtually all other programs -- stand in such a relation to Singapore which is why people often find that their kids place into a lower level -- sometimes a couple grade levels lower -- when switching to Singapore. And, the reverse doesn't happen nearly as often (maybe not even at all -- at least I don't really hear about it).

 

So, there are two things about this. On one level, you could be real flippant about it and just say "So this is the hardest program -- that's all I need to know." But, truthfully if it was just about that, then you could easily just accelerate your student through an easier program and create a similar outcome. While the Singaporeans really know how to work super tough arithmetic, say, your kid has already been doing algebra for the last two years, perhaps. So, really it kind of comes down to what you think your kid needs here, anyway. Do they need to stop and do the "starred problems" or do they need to just accelerate through to more sophisticated material? Personally, I think, in most cases, they need to stop and do the starred problems. If we were talking about something like whether they need to stop and prove Godel's Incompleteness Theorem before they finish their primer on mathematical logic and move on to more normal subjects, then I would say, move on. But, we are so far from being in a situation like that in K-12 education that I wouldn't be saying something like that in a million years. So, that's where I stand, personally.

 

So, the second point is that even if you do TT -- or compare the appropriate Singapore placement test to BJU or whatever program -- I think you will find that, at best, your kid is just going to be accelerated compared to what you would have had if you did Singapore, but at the cost of their skill with the material they supposedly know being much lower. Frankly, even Singapore has left me with a few noticeable outcomes later on down the road that I would normally want to avoid. (Part of the reason for that is because it isn't just about doing ever harder problems but also about doing the right kind of problems and ultimately just picking the right content. But I'll leave that for another thread.)

[Nan in Mass]

I have multiple reasons, not of which have anything to do with the level of Singapore math compared with the level of other typical homeschooling programs.

 

Singapore teaches word problem solving in a nice visual way that makes algebra easier later. The word problems are worded such a way that it makes it hard to solve the problem unless you really understand how the math works.

 

Singapore ties everything together in a unified way. Much of the problem solving is framed as a ratio, which matches my experience with real life and science. Geometry and algebra are taught in a mix, which makes math seem less like a group of unrelated algorithms and more like a tool box from which you select a tool to solve a problem. Multiple solutions are discussed constantly.

 

It is very applied, which is important for my children, and always demonstrates that a rule works when the rule is first presented. It doesn't rely on memorization but on understanding.

 

It was designed for a younger child (and one of mine is younger).

 

It was designed for a mixed classroom of both slower and quicker children, so it doesn't "top out". Each problem set contains lots of problems which will challenge the brighter students, as well as more ordinary problems, and a few which will challenge a very bright one. Because all of these are included in every lesson, my children get to do hard problems in the lessons that come easily to them without having to struggle with a curriculum that was written above their level for the rest of the lessons. My math-struggling oldest happens to be a whiz at those geometry problems where you have to use your angle rules to find an unknown angle. With Singapore, he actually has a few problems that challenge him in those lessons, while he seldom gets the starred problems in the rest of the lessons. There are also lenthy puzzle-type problems at the end of every chapter that I think are important for teaching problem solving strategies.

 

Singapore teaches from the top down, which is important for my children, and isn't wordy, which we would hate.

 

HTH

-Nan

[Cee Cee]

for all of your responses. I have learned quite a bit!

 

Cee Cee