WTM vs. school writing processes

[piraterose]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a newly 6-yo daughter who is finishing up Kindergarten. I've been very frustrated with what they have done with writing this year. It just seems that her school has the opposite approach than WTM in regards to this subject - throw the kids in writing sentences and then teach them the details later.

 

My daughter has been very frustrated with it this year. The school expects her to come up with her own narration and write fully formed multi-sentence "stories". Keep in mind - beside teaching them capitalization and punctuation, there has been no grammer/sentence structure taught.

 

For example last night her assignment was to take three words from her sight list (we used "eat", "will", "they") and write a story (a couple sentences) using them. And here I am trying to teach her how to put a sentence together at 7pm at night. Her mind just wasn't ready to form a random story, then struggle with the handwriting.

 

Finally I just wrote a couple sentences using her answers to the questions I asked her (Who is "they"? What are "they" eating?) Basically she came up with the concept - Olivia and Caleb eating hot dogs - then I wrote the sentences to fit the assignment. "Olivia and Caleb are hungry. They will eat some hot dogs." And had her write it as copywork.

 

Tonight she has another couple sentences that she has to write out of thin air on a different topic.

 

I guess my first question is: If you are using WTM copywork / narration separately, as explain in WTM, how do you deal the fact that the school wants them to to learn in a completely way? Is it cheating to help them in this way? Do your keep your WTM working process, separate from their school work?

 

This summer I plan to do a small crash course in language arts. I want her to have to tools to do these types of assignments. I recently bought and am reading WTM and really appreciate the course as it is set out (We plan to afterschool SOTW 1 starting this summer).

 

In regards to my dilemma above, my second question is should I be looking into FLL or WWE? I haven't seen either of them yet, and not sure the difference between the two?

 

Thanks for letting me ramble. Thanks in advance!

 

Erin

[Bee]

tell her that your dd struggles and the assignment is too difficult for her to complete independently. My dd's school tells me to notify the teacher when an assignment is too difficult so they can work on those skills in school. My dd started ps in 3rd grade and had done WWE for 1 year and FLL for 2&1/2 at home. I thought she would struggle with those independent typical school writing assignments but she hasn't and I think it's thanks to the texts she used at home. (Older dd who used a more typical textbook-like writing curriculum at home struggled for all her elementary years with writing.)

 

FLL covers grammar and FLL1 and 2 are mostly oral lessons. WWE is for writing-it has the child practice skills of copywork, narration, and dictation. I think the WWE workbooks make my job of teaching easier but it's also possible to use the hardcover book and write out your own lessons. Younger dd will still take FLL 1&2 off the shelf and read it for fun.

[Garga]

Keep in mind - beside teaching them capitalization and punctuation, there has been no grammer/sentence structure taught.

 

 

I just finished an anthropology college class. In the section about languages, we learned that children automatically learn the grammar of their language without being officially taught it, for the most part.

 

For example, if you tell a small child, "This is a swaff," (a made up word), and then show them two swaffs and ask the child, "Now how many are there?" the child will automatically add an "s" to swaff and say, "Two swaffs." They don't have to be officially taught that to pluralize a word, you add an S. They just know it.

 

I'm only telling you this because of what I quoted above. In kindergarten, children don't need "grammar" lessons, because they've automatically picked up the basic rules. So, it might remove one worry that you have about the writing.

 

As for your general worries about teaching writing, I can't help you. But you don't need to worry too much about the fact that they haven't been taught grammar yet.

[mlbuchina]

I just finished an anthropology college class. In the section about languages, we learned that children automatically learn the grammar of their language without being officially taught it, for the most part.

 

For example, if you tell a small child, "This is a swaff," (a made up word), and then show them two swaffs and ask the child, "Now how many are there?" the child will automatically add an "s" to swaff and say, "Two swaffs." They don't have to be officially taught that to pluralize a word, you add an S. They just know it.

 

I'm only telling you this because of what I quoted above. In kindergarten, children don't need "grammar" lessons, because they've automatically picked up the basic rules. So, it might remove one worry that you have about the writing.

 

As for your general worries about teaching writing, I can't help you. But you don't need to worry too much about the fact that they haven't been taught grammar yet.

 

This may be true for SPOKEN language, but writing is a completely different skill. SWB speaks extensively of this in her workshops, and in WTM. Also, who do you know that speaks grammatically correct all the time? We just don't speak the way we write.

 

 

Piraterose - I think that FLL is a wonderful introduction for grammar. My dd6(7 in two days!:eek:) has done really well with it. It has covered nouns, pronouns and verbs, and the four types of sentences. We will be beginning 2nd grade work in a few weeks. We have also used WWE workbook 1, and I really like it, too.

 

However, I can only think of one time in which the lesson asked for the dc to make something up. We read a poem, and then the next day she made up a little "poem" of her own based on that poem.

 

As to if you need both: If you just use WWE, you will need a seperate grammar program. If you just use FLL, you don't NEED WWE, as it has copywork and narration in it. If you get both, you do the lessons in WWE (which mesh very well with FLL), and don't do the copywork in FLL. You don't have to do the narration lessons, either, but I chose to to give my dd a little extra practice at it.

 

All this being said, these are FIRST GRADE skills that we are discussing, and I think it is silly to try to make a kinder do those things. If you start her off with these programs this summer, you will be right on track!:D

 

Anyway, I hope that helps a little!

[Elisa]

In Florida, various forms of writing are standards in Kindergarten. Here's one "The student will participate in writing simple stories, poems, rhymes, or song lyrics. " and another "The student will draft writing by drawing, telling, or writing about a familiar experience, topic or text."

 

These are the minimum standards: http://www.floridastandards.org/Standards/FLStandardSearch.aspx

[piraterose]

In Florida, various forms of writing are standards in Kindergarten. Here's one "The student will participate in writing simple stories, poems, rhymes, or song lyrics. " and another "The student will draft writing by drawing, telling, or writing about a familiar experience, topic or text."

 

These are the minimum standards: http://www.floridastandards.org/Standards/FLStandardSearch.aspx

 

Yes, I have to agree with Elisa because we also live in Florida. Can't really convince a teacher that it's not a K skill when it's written into the state standards.

 

Some other interesting standards that are required of Kindys in Florida:

LA.K.3.3.1: The student will revise the draft by adding additional details to the draft and checking for logical thinking with prompting.

 

LA.K.4.2.2: The student will participate in creating simple summaries from informational/expository text (e.g., graphs, tables, maps);

 

Logic, summaries in 1st-4th (much less Kindy) is comletely backwards from what is discussed in WTM as far as I'm comprehending it. So the question remains how do I balance the two schools of thought while afterschooling my daughter? Is it important to support the way the school is teaching her (and would it only confuse her by teaching a different way at home) or is there enough leeway to expose her to a different schooling method?

 

So starting with FLL would be the best start, and integrate WWE if needed for extra copywork and narration, correct?

Edited May 20, 2010 by piraterose

[LibrarianMom]

In Kindergarten they want kids to know that words go together to make sentences and the sentences do not need to be complicated. Using the sight words you indicated, something like "I eat lunch. They will too." would have been perfect.

 

I've been using both the school and WTM way without issue. The two actually tend to complement each other. You will find that by doing FLL/WWE she'll have a more conceptual understanding of what is a good sentence. Then when she needs to write a sentence she has a model. Continue using the question words to help her flesh out her stories. Kids have something to say about their lives and experiences and need the opportunity.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I just posted this and got this response from another mom on the general board:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by thescrappyhomeschooler

I have had a major problem with kindergarten. Both my boys were expected to write in journals from day one of kindergarten. When I asked, "Wouldn't it be more efficient to teach them to write their letters and how to spell a few words before you force them to write two sentences a day?", they looked at me like I was crazy. Silly me! My kids hated to write or color, so I hadn't taught them how to write anything beside their own first names. The preschool they attended was play-based, so they didn't learn to write their letters there, either. So, last summer was spent teaching both kids how to form all their letters so that this year they could start off writing in their ridiculous journals again. Thank goodness we don't have to continue the nonsense any more!

 

 

You know, I didn't start homeschooling my oldest until after he'd finished 5th grade in public school. A few summers ago I was sorting out boxes and boxes of "products" that he'd accumulated in all his years of public school (it was all about having a product to bring home), and in one box, I found a "journal" that he'd had to keep in first grade. It was heartbreaking to me that I could. not. read. a. word. I can't even express how distressing this is, it's wrong on so many levels. His little thoughts and ideas, lost. What is the point of "writing" when what is written cannot be deciphered? It's just awful. And now the poor kindergarteners will have to do this, too? It's very sad.

 

It is ridiculous that they expect these kids to write without any training in how to do so. My kindergartener thinks "there" is spelled "thair", because that's how he's been writing it in his journal all year with no correction. I just discovered it at the spring conference.

[texasmama]

I agree that it is developmentally inappropriate to expect kinders to write sentences. It is typical of what is expected in the public schools here, as well.

[BabyBre]

There is definitely a conflict between the public school approach to teaching writing and the WTM approach. My dc's 1st grade teacher did the same thing your dd's teacher did - expected original sentences, 4 of them in a book report by the end of the year!

 

If you can listen to SWB's audio "Writing Without Fear", it may help you focus and/or decide on the ps approach or the WTM approach. My dc have managed well enough, but I am constantly trying to undo what the ps has done.

 

Dd9 will write novels that ramble on and on without direction (she's very verbal), but using FLL in conjunction with WWE is slowly helping. FLL teaches the grammar and sentence structure that won't be taught in our school at all as far as I'm aware. WWE (or the WTM method) requires my wordy dd to step back and pick out the main idea through narration. If given a blank sheet of paper and asked to write 1-2 sentences about the passage we just read, she'd fill it with run-ons and comma splices and ask for more. I find both programs indespensible, although WWE is simply the WTM method (copywork, narration, dictation) organized in one place for the parent.

 

I do use them independently of the school's assignments. I also don't worry about how they do on those assignments; neither is at the low end of the spectrum. I just hope and hope that what I teach them isn't undone faster than I can reinforce it, and that I can undo the damage done to their ability and desire to write at school. So far, we're doing OK this way.

[PenKase]

When I first read the WTM, a lightbulb went off in my head. The schooling methods described in my self proclaimed afterschooling/homeschooling "bible" just made sense to me immediately......no matter that I couldn't prove how, they just did. There are many, many things that the public schools teach that make me wonder why I haven't pulled my children out ASAP!! I've resolved myself to afterschooling and summer homeschool to repair the damage. It's been 4 years and its worked pretty well so far.

 

As I type this right now, I find myself outlining the logic stage chapter of the new WTM to flesh out my plans for history this summer. Dd10 and I have already been working through MCT LA Island level and MathMammoth 3A/3B as review and prep for 4A. She is my LA lover and has never had issues with creative writing because she loves it and has always had a knack for it. Sadly though, the mechanics of writing are not very well taught in elementary school before students are expected to construct reports and 5 paragraph essays. It just baffles me everytime I see such an assignment come home. I just assumed they wanted the parents to complete the project for them. It's the only way I could explain why it was given in the first place. As far as writing goes, I agree, the public schools expect children to perform tasks well above their developmental abilities. Although frustrated with this backwards approach, I also realized that due to the increased pressures of standards based instruction, there was no taming the beast. Whenever I did feel dd got an assignment that she could not complete on her own, I would contact her teachers and explain that she needed further assistance. The way I figured, if my child could not complete the assignment independently, the ball was put back on their court to serve my dd they way they should. I always put it back on them. I have always had my afterschooling plans and I refused to spend extra time on any school related task was not thoroughly taught.

 

From the very beginning, I always made sure my children were well prepared for school. By prepared I mean teaching them ahead of what their schools teach and "feeding" them according to their abilities and not their age. I see the payoff already. My children love to learn because they aren't boxed in since they already have a base working knowledge before encountering a subject in school. For most things, I've been able to do the main teaching. What they learn in school is gravy. At home, they are free to explore their interests and do so with full intention because they arent' bogged down with the basics. If there is anything they need to review, we do so and keep it moving.

 

All this to really say that I will be starting WWE with dd6 this summer (and continue with MCT LA with dd10). She was well prepared for the tasks required of her for 1st grade this year because we have worked on phonics based reading instruction with HeadSprout/Phonics Pathways/Progressive Phonics, handwriting with HWT, phonics/spelling with ETC. This dd is a non-fiction/math lover & I know I have to reinforce her writing skills before school gets to her first. WWE seems gentle enough to continue with throughout year and into the next. We are seriously considering homeschooling this dd but until we are still this will be our course.

 

Whew...Done! :lol:

[talexand]

I help my K'er with sentences by asknig her to say it as if she were talking to Grandma. Once the assignment was "Write a sentence about your favorite food." She came up with "pizza and ice cream." So I ask her if she can say it in a sentence. (Blank look) Then I point out that if she said "pizza and ice cream" to Grandma, Grandma would reply what about pizza and ice cream? That helps her come up with "My favorite food is pizza and ice cream." I congratulate her explain that that is a sentence and maybe something about what makes it a sentence, now that she has come up with it. Next I write it down and she copies it.

 

After K I have found aven more disconnects between public school and homeschool. It has been worse for my 8 year old third grader this year. It is like pulling teeth to get original writing out of him which the school requires.

[BabyBre]

I just finished an anthropology college class. In the section about languages, we learned that children automatically learn the grammar of their language without being officially taught it, for the most part.

 

For example, if you tell a small child, "This is a swaff," (a made up word), and then show them two swaffs and ask the child, "Now how many are there?" the child will automatically add an "s" to swaff and say, "Two swaffs." They don't have to be officially taught that to pluralize a word, you add an S. They just know it.

 

I'm only telling you this because of what I quoted above. In kindergarten, children don't need "grammar" lessons, because they've automatically picked up the basic rules. So, it might remove one worry that you have about the writing.

 

 

 

But what if something belongs to more than one family of swaffs? Is it the swaffs'? The swaffs's? The swaffses? The swaffses'?

 

:tongue_smilie:

[BabyBre]

Yes, I have to agree with Elisa because we also live in Florida. Can't really convince a teacher that it's not a K skill when it's written into the state standards.

 

Some other interesting standards that are required of Kindys in Florida:

LA.K.3.3.1: The student will revise the draft by adding additional details to the draft and checking for logical thinking with prompting.

 

LA.K.4.2.2: The student will participate in creating simple summaries from informational/expository text (e.g., graphs, tables, maps);

 

 

 

:scared: Yikes! Well, I think we can all agree that just because a government entity says it's so, doesn't make it so.

 

Logic, summaries in 1st-4th (much less Kindy) is comletely backwards from what is discussed in WTM as far as I'm comprehending it. So the question remains how do I balance the two schools of thought while afterschooling my daughter? Is it important to support the way the school is teaching her (and would it only confuse her by teaching a different way at home) or is there enough leeway to expose her to a different schooling method?

 

So starting with FLL would be the best start, and integrate WWE if needed for extra copywork and narration, correct?

 

It's backwards in the sense that WTM understands that kids are learning a foreign language (written english) and must be taught from the basics up. The schools are plunging them into it head first, expecting them to write original sentences, sometimes pages of them, in what is for many their first introduction to a foreign language. It is contrary to common sense.

 

However, I don't think that using WTM method at home could hurt their performance in school in any way. On the contrary, it will help them hone the skills that they'll need to make sense of and be successful with the school's method. It will help them make connections and fill in the gaps. That's been our experience with it.

[Sara R]

I guess my first question is: If you are using WTM copywork / narration separately, as explain in WTM, how do you deal the fact that the school wants them to to learn in a completely way? Is it cheating to help them in this way? Do your keep your WTM working process, separate from their school work?

 

No, of course this isn't cheating. This is providing the at home "support" that schools expect nowadays.

 

It's not too hard to integrate narration and dictation along with schoolwork, like you are doing. If they don't know what to write, brainstorm together until you come up with something. Write it down and have the student copy it. If they are old enough to do dictation, do the same process: come up with a narration together, then give the student the sentence for dictation. Once the student can do that, you can use a recorder (we have digital recorders around here that make this really easy) to have the student tape their own narration, then listen to it and take dictation from the recording.

 

The general rule is to have the student do as much independently as they can, and teach them the skills they need to do it completely independently in the future. The schools don't teach these skills because in the early grades they overestimate how much kids can and should do independently, and what instruction is needed.

 

The schools are governed by educational romanticism, which holds that students develop like garden plants, without the need for overt teaching. It doesn't work so well with many students. Teach them the skills they need in the background so they can be successful in school.

[cougarmom4]

Interesting discussion here. I have also been extremely frustrated with the lack of writing instruction in ps...it seems they simply assign writing assignments and expect the kids to magically be able to accomplish them.

 

When I read TWTM for the first time, I felt like I *finally* figured out what the challenge with writing is. It was a serious lightbulb moment for me! There are several skills happening simultaneously when you ask a student to write about her family vacation. (Why didn't they teach me anything about that in my education classes in college!???) Thinking what to write, thinking through which order to put the thoughts down, thinking of how to form the letters themselves, thinking of how to build the sentences, and then actually doing it. It seems the ps teachers simply assume they can sit down and write it without recognizing the various steps.

 

This is why I think copywork, dictation and narration are great skills to focus on...and these are the steps I take to help my dc when they have school assignments to work on at home...I just walk them through the process one step at a time. We first talk & brainstorm together; we then figure out what order things should go; then I write down what they say for them; then they copy it in their own writing or by dictation, depending on their abilities. It seems the most challenging part is remembering what it was they wanted to say while they physically write it out.

 

I will say I disagree slightly with TWTM--my recollection is that it was frowned upon to have younger kids write original thoughts/stories. I personally feel younger kids are quite capable of this...if they are taught & assisted in doing so. The more they do it, (along with copywork, dictation & narration), the better they become.

[BabyBre]

There are several skills happening simultaneously when you ask a student to write about her family vacation. (Why didn't they teach me anything about that in my education classes in college!???)

 

Because education programs teach how to teach, not subject content - a large part of the reason our schools are failing (and no fault of the teachers').

[lionfamily1999]

I would recommend FLL for your summer cram :) If you get the older book (I'm not even sure the *new* FLL 1 is available yet) then you'll have both 1 & 2, and they cover the concepts in WWE very well.

 

hth