Boycotts, Secession and American Culture

[MSNative]

Recently, I got to vacation with some good friends from diff. walks of life and political beliefs. Conversation turned to the recent boycott of AZ by certain cities, then onto secession and finally focused on American culture. I enjoyed the time, but left with many questions and thoughts and hoped that the hive could provide some more perspectives.

 

Summary of the general discussion followed by my questions:

 

Boycott - most were dismayed by cities boycotting AZ (not to be confused with support for AZ's law. Discussion was more on US cities boycotting a US state triggered by the girls basketball team story.). They felt that this was unseemly and improper for fellow US gov't entities. Outrage and displeasure ought to be shown in other ways - official statements, letters to legislators, etc. A couple of ladies, though, found the recent actions of AZ so distasteful and unAmerican that they were disgusted that AZ was part of America. This then led to...

 

Secession - Friends on both sides of the aisle then began talking about secession - is it legal, would it be beneficial, which states might or might not (should or should not) withdraw from the union, logistics of a peaceful secession, etc. What concerned me most about this part of the discussion was how very differently my friends of differing political beliefs saw the country and its goals. This led to...

 

American culture - As we discussed and debated, it became clear that each side holds many significanly opposing views about what America is and ought to be. Quite frankly, the goals of my liberal friends were the exact opposite of the goals of my conservative friends and each side thought the other was holding the country back. This got us all musing about what it means to be an American. What are American values? If we hold such opposing views, what is the glue that keeps America together?

 

Lest I portray any of this incorrectly, I wouldn't describe any of my friends as radicals and certainly noone was espousing secession. This was more a philosophical discussion. However it raised many questions for which I didn't have answers. Primarily, are we becoming two separate peoples sharing one country? Anyone wish to share his or her thoughts?

[TravelingChris]

I would like to see who is boycotting Az and then I will boycott them. I also need to see which companies I already buy from are from AZ and make sure I am buying their things.

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

My first thought is that there have always been opposing views in any culture/country, but to me, it seems that modern media has a very polarizing effect on people and many people stick to an opinion without giving the other side fair consideration.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Reported on the news last night - one big city in our area is boycotting AZ. Another big city (after a poll showed that most of its constituents supported AZ) is not boycotting it.

 

Somehow I wonder if AZ is really going to care. . .

[asta]

What are American values? If we hold such opposing views, what is the glue that keeps America together?

 

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

[RoughCollie]

Well said, Astra. Your comment pretty much describes how I feel.

[laughing lioness]

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

 

So often you write what I want to say. You did it again.

[hornblower]

If Canada can manage to hobble along & keep Quebec in the federation, I think you should be able to.

 

Ultimately, I think whether people stay together or not has more to do with finance & economy than any over arching philosophical ideal. As long as it's fiscally beneficial to stay together, they will.

 

The thing is though that with the financial crisis now slowly rolling out, I think THIS will be the true test & if you do see balkanization of North America, I think it will be directly linked to economics.

[MSNative]

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

 

I agree. I always thought BoR and Const. were the glue, but current debates about living document vs. framers' intent, 2nd and 10th amendment, weight of international law on SCOTUS rulings, etc. show that Americans have very different views on what those docs say and how important they are.

Edited May 18, 2010 by MSNative
sentence fragment, poor writing, you name it

[creekland]

My first thought is that there have always been opposing views in any culture/country, but to me, it seems that modern media has a very polarizing effect on people and many people stick to an opinion without giving the other side fair consideration.

 

:iagree:

 

But I will also add that we have decided to not travel to any city or state that is boycotting AZ in spite of the fact that we don't entirely agree with AZ. I want those that are trying to ruin another state economically due to disagreements to feel the same type of economic pain they want the other to have. We may just go to the Grand Canyon again this year.

 

In our country we are free to disagree. Period.

[coffeefreak]

The reason why the states are sovereign and allowed to make their own laws, is because they are so diverse. Each state in this union is like its own little country. I cannot understand what people in Maine need, and they cannot understand what I need. An example on a smaller level is, we have 3 snowplows for our entire city!!!! 3!!!! We get an inch of snow and the entire state shuts down. People make fun of us, but that's where I live.

 

Back to AZ's law, I may not agree with the law, but the fact remains that the southern boarder states have a problem. Boycotting AZ is not going to help them solve this problem, it is only going to polarize the problem further. I have some very strong feelings against other states that I've lived in, but I don't boycott them. I just choose not to live there and deal with them or their problems.

 

As for the "Glue" that holds our country together? I don't know what that looks like anymore. Our founding Fathers said the only way this Republic would work, was if everyone was largely self-governing. I'd have to go look it up, and I'm being lazy:D, but they said that if the majority of the people stopped governing themselves (holding themselves accountable), the Government would have no choice but to step in and create laws to govern them (ie no texting while driving:glare:). I think that used to be the glue. Everyone minding their own p's and q's, doing the right thing, and taking responsibility for their actions. Somewhere along the way, we started pointing the finger and claiming that we weren't responsible for our actions. We started blaming our parents, teachers, government etc. You name it, we blame it. Thus, the government has to step in, and tell us how to behave. The flip side to that is, the Federal Government WANTS to step in, because we now have career politicians. Politician used to be a dirty word in this country (I know, it still is). You were a representative because you had a civil duty to be, but after your two years, you went home! It was a lot like jury duty. It wasn't fun, it was a hardship on your family, and you didn't get rich, or have cushy health benefits.

 

I get sad too Asta, but I also have hope. I see a movement across the country that the career politicians should be scared of. Not just the Tea Party, but the Republicans and the Democrats too. I see the constituents rallying and telling the career politicians to listen up! Maybe that's the glue resurrecting itself and turning into Gorilla glue instead of being Elmer's. Maybe the glue that really holds our country together is the right to vote and be heard.

 

Then again, maybe I just need another cup of coffee.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[TN Mama]

The reason why the states are sovereign and allowed to make their own laws, is because they are so diverse. Each state in this union is like its own little country. I cannot understand what people in Maine need, and they cannot understand what I need. An example on a smaller level is, we have 3 snowplows for our entire city!!!! 3!!!! We get an inch of snow and the entire state shuts down. People make fun of us, but that's where I live.

 

Back to AZ's law, I may not agree with the law, but the fact remains that the southern boarder states have a problem. Boycotting AZ is not going to help them solve this problem, it is only going to polarize the problem further. I have some very strong feelings against other states that I've lived in, but I don't boycott them. I just choose not to live there and deal with them or their problems.

 

As for the "Glue" that holds our country together? I don't know what that looks like anymore. Our founding Fathers said the only way this Republic would work, was if everyone was largely self-governing. I'd have to go look it up, and I'm being lazy:D, but they said that if the majority of the people stopped governing themselves (holding themselves accountable), the Government would have no choice but to step in and create laws to govern them (ie no texting while driving:glare:). I think that used to be the glue. Everyone minding their own p's and q's, doing the right thing, and taking responsibility for their actions. Somewhere along the way, we started pointing the finger and claiming that we weren't responsible for our actions. We started blaming our parents, teachers, government etc. You name it, we blame it. Thus, the government has to step in, and tell us how to behave. The flip side to that is, the Federal Government WANTS to step in, because we now have career politicians. Politician used to be a dirty word in this country (I know, it still is). You were a representative because you had a civil duty to be, but after your two years, you went home! It was a lot like jury duty. It wasn't fun, it was a hardship on your family, and you didn't get rich, or have cushy health benefits.

 

I get sad too Asta, but I also have hope. I see a movement across the country that the career politicians should be scared of. Not just the Tea Party, but the Republicans and the Democrats too. I see the constituents rallying and telling the career politicians to listen up! Maybe that's the glue resurrecting itself and turning into Gorilla glue instead of being Elmer's. Maybe the glue that really holds our country together is the right to vote and be heard.

 

Then again, maybe I just need another cup of coffee.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

Wow - wish I could give you some rep for this post.

[PineFarmMom]

I would like to see who is boycotting Az and then I will boycott them. I also need to see which companies I already buy from are from AZ and make sure I am buying their things.

 

 

I've heard some discussions about making a point right now during these boycotts to find small businesses in AZ to make purchases from. If there is an item that you need to purchase that you would order, do a search and find an AZ company that you can purchase that item from rather than order it online. I have some books I'm needing and rather than order from Amazon, I am going to do some searching and order from there instead. There are other things I could easily come up with. Actually, Michael Berry, a talk show host out of Houston, is planning to organize something like this to show support for AZ.

 

Oh, I also plan to let them know WHY I am making said purchase...to support them in spite of the nonsense they are facing. It's small, but usually that is what it takes.

Edited May 18, 2010 by Texas T

[Angel]

Wow. I live in a bubble. I had no idea this was going on.

 

If any of you find out any major companies that are boycotting AZ that we can avoid, please post. I'm with transientChris on this.

 

This makes me so mad, and sad. This is also why I live is said bubble.

[Mama Lynx]

::::::::delivering mental rep to both Asta and Dorinda:::::::::

[Mynyel]

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

 

:thumbup: I couldn't find an applause emote so I chose that one. Very good post....

 

Dorindas post was wonderful as well (forgot to click the button!)

 

I also agree if there is anyone that has info on what companies are boycotting AZ I would like to know.

 

I will not, however, boycott a state. For instance California (I think) is boycotting AZ. I will not boycott businesses in California because they may not agree with what their state is doing. For instance my uncle owns his own business there. If I needed his services I would get them. the state government doesn't speak for my uncle (and he doesn't agree with what the state does anyway).

 

However if there are companies/businesses that openly want to boycott other companies/businesses in AZ then I wan't to boycott them.

 

People aren't always guilty by association and we can't boycott just because we don't agree with the government.

 

If I could boycott governments I would :tongue_smilie:

 

I hope this made sense!

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My first thought is that there have always been opposing views in any culture/country, but to me, it seems that modern media has a very polarizing effect on people and many people stick to an opinion without giving the other side fair consideration.

 

:iagree:

I also thought secession was settled with the end of the civil war. I also am doubtful that many states would want to give up the federal funding for roads and other services which I believe are quite extensive. It never occurred to me just how much the federal government supports the states until dh pointed that out to me:D

 

I forgot to add that I am in favor of supporting our immigration laws;)

Edited May 18, 2010 by priscilla

[AuntPol]

How do you boycott a state??? Especially how does a city boycott a state? It sounds so absurd. If I don't eat at P.F. Changs in NC, am I really hurting Arizona or am I hurting the local staff? Ditto Pet Smart, Etc.

[DesertDweller]

I would like to see who is boycotting Az and then I will boycott them. I also need to see which companies I already buy from are from AZ and make sure I am buying their things.

 

:iagree:

 

Reported on the news last night - one big city in our area is boycotting AZ. Another big city (after a poll showed that most of its constituents supported AZ) is not boycotting it.

 

Somehow I wonder if AZ is really going to care. . .

 

I don't think we do.

 

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

 

Very well said.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

The reason why the states are sovereign and allowed to make their own laws, is because they are so diverse. Each state in this union is like its own little country. I cannot understand what people in Maine need, and they cannot understand what I need. An example on a smaller level is, we have 3 snowplows for our entire city!!!! 3!!!! We get an inch of snow and the entire state shuts down. People make fun of us, but that's where I live.

 

Back to AZ's law, I may not agree with the law, but the fact remains that the southern boarder states have a problem. Boycotting AZ is not going to help them solve this problem, it is only going to polarize the problem further. I have some very strong feelings against other states that I've lived in, but I don't boycott them. I just choose not to live there and deal with them or their problems.

 

As for the "Glue" that holds our country together? I don't know what that looks like anymore. Our founding Fathers said the only way this Republic would work, was if everyone was largely self-governing. I'd have to go look it up, and I'm being lazy:D, but they said that if the majority of the people stopped governing themselves (holding themselves accountable), the Government would have no choice but to step in and create laws to govern them (ie no texting while driving:glare:). I think that used to be the glue. Everyone minding their own p's and q's, doing the right thing, and taking responsibility for their actions. Somewhere along the way, we started pointing the finger and claiming that we weren't responsible for our actions. We started blaming our parents, teachers, government etc. You name it, we blame it. Thus, the government has to step in, and tell us how to behave. The flip side to that is, the Federal Government WANTS to step in, because we now have career politicians. Politician used to be a dirty word in this country (I know, it still is). You were a representative because you had a civil duty to be, but after your two years, you went home! It was a lot like jury duty. It wasn't fun, it was a hardship on your family, and you didn't get rich, or have cushy health benefits.

 

I get sad too Asta, but I also have hope. I see a movement across the country that the career politicians should be scared of. Not just the Tea Party, but the Republicans and the Democrats too. I see the constituents rallying and telling the career politicians to listen up! Maybe that's the glue resurrecting itself and turning into Gorilla glue instead of being Elmer's. Maybe the glue that really holds our country together is the right to vote and be heard.

 

Then again, maybe I just need another cup of coffee.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

I am confused:confused: Are you against laws against texting and driving? IMHO I think that is a sensible law since there should be consequences if someone does that since it is equivalent to drinking and driving. I do not see that as a nanny state since without a law there would be no legal punishment for people who do so IMO. As a nurse who took care of car accident victims for years , I see sensible laws like these as a good thing:)

 

As far as personal responsibility, as a person from the conservative liberal viewpoint, I strongly believe in personal responsibility and I honestly think many people on both sides do as well. Of course, there are many egregious examples of people who like blame others all the time and never take any personal responsibility and of course I think this wrong:glare:

 

My 2 cents:001_smile:

[coffeefreak]

I am confused:confused: Are you against laws against texting and driving? IMHO I think that is a sensible law since there should be consequences if someone does that since it is equivalent to drinking and driving. I do not see that as a nanny state since without a law there would be no legal punishment for people who do so IMO. As a nurse who took care of car accident victims for years , I see sensible laws like these as a good thing:)

 

As far as personal responsibility, as a person from the conservative liberal viewpoint, I strongly believe in personal responsibility and I honestly think many people on both sides do as well. Of course, there are many egregious examples of people who like blame others all the time and never take any personal responsibility and of course I think this wrong:glare:

 

My 2 cents:001_smile:

 

I wonder why we had to pay taxpayer money to enact a law that common sense says not to do. I am TOTALLY AGAINST texting and driving.

 

Sorry to confuse you. It is an example of a law the local and state governments have to pass, because people won't self govern themselves.

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[AuntPol]

Thinking about going to eat at P.F. Changs followed by dessert at Coldstone Creamery then stop at Pet Smart on the way home to watch the Diamondbacks, play my Fender, take a bath with Dial soap, apply to University of Phoenix, and then plan to visit the Grand Canyon via US Airways.

 

Cities boycotting Arizona

Los Angeles, Pasadena, San Diego, Sacremento, Oakland, San Francisco

Houston, Dallas, El Paso, Austin

Boston, Seattle, St. Paul, Boulder, DC

[Jean in Newcastle]

BTW - Seattle says that their boycott is not retroactive so they will not stop using venders, businesses that they had already had contracts with. They will just not give new business to AZ businesses.

[michelle l]

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

 

 

Yep.

[Dandelion]

My opinions...

 

Boycotts of AZ: I think any boycotting of AZ is ill-conceived, petty and completely pointless. Boycotting a state because of policy disagreements will do absolutely nothing to change the policy and will (potentially) harm businesses and individuals. However, based on what I've been reading and hearing from various sources, I think AZ will actually benefit from all this as there seem to be many more on the "anti-boycott" side who will now spend their $$ with AZ businesses.

 

Secession: The Supreme Court has ruled unilateral secession unconstitutional but left the door open by commenting that revolution or consent of the states could lead to a successful secession. So it's not impossible. However, I think we have much more going for us as a country by remaining the United States of America so I'm not in favor of going down that path.

 

American Culture: As others have noted, I think that our culture (as a whole) today is a far cry from what used to be defined as "American culture". Many of the cultural attributes that made America great - rugged individualism, strong work ethic, belief in limited government (especially the limits on the federal government), strong sense of individual freedom tempered with individual responsibility, etc. - seem to be on the decline. I realize that cultures change over time, and I acknowledge that many of the changes have been good. However, overall I feel that we're losing some of the key attributes of our culture. And, like others who have replied to this thread, that makes me sad.

[Dana]

How do you boycott a state??? Especially how does a city boycott a state? It sounds so absurd. If I don't eat at P.F. Changs in NC, am I really hurting Arizona or am I hurting the local staff? Ditto Pet Smart, Etc.

 

One way is not to hold seminars/conventions there. SC was hurt some by the NAACP boycott due to us flying the Confederate Battle Flag over the State Capitol. I think the poor publicity did cut into some tourism as well.

 

If you're boycotting the state, if you're choosing vendors for a product, you would simply exclude anyone located in the state you're boycotting.

 

How much of a practical difference will it make? Probably not a whole lot, but it is a way for people and groups to state their strong disagreement with the AZ law.

[CatMomof3]

Cities boycotting Arizona

Los Angeles, Pasadena, San Diego, Sacremento, Oakland, San Francisco

Houston, Dallas, El Paso, Austin

Boston, Seattle, St. Paul, Boulder, DC

 

Hey look how many are California cities. Instead of working on fixing our problems, we are going to sit around and talk about boycotting our neighbor. And you wonder why CA is such a mess. I am so sick of this state and the hacks that run it. :glare:

 

Oh and I agree with previous posts that I thought it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights holding us together - I would be surprised if 10% of the graduating class from high school had even read them.

 

I am just getting angrier and angrier at the state of our country, my state, and my district. - ok going to take a chill pill now (maybe) :chillpill:

[Rosie_0801]

What are American values? If we hold such opposing views, what is the glue that keeps America together?

 

 

That you are AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!

 

That might be a short sentence, but that doesn't make it weak. That patriotism brand of glue you have is very strong :)

 

Rosie- looking from the outside ;)

[Brigitte]

I also am doubtful that many states would want to give up the federal funding for roads and other services which I believe are quite extensive. It never occurred to me just how much the federal government supports the states until dh pointed that out to me:D

 

I forgot to add that I am in favor of supporting our immigration laws;)

 

However, the residents of that state will no longer be paying federal income taxes or any other federal taxes for that matter, so the state can tax more to generate the fund necessary to pay for those things.

[Jenny in Atl]

However, the residents of that state will no longer be paying federal income taxes or any other federal taxes for that matter, so the state can tax more to generate the fund necessary to pay for those things.

 

And you think folks will want to pay state taxes anymore than federal ones? :lol:

[laughing lioness]

That you are AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!

 

That might be a short sentence, but that doesn't make it weak. That patriotism brand of glue you have is very strong :)

 

Rosie- looking from the outside ;)

 

Yes, but when I read statements like a branch of the government is acting unconstitutionally, it is acknowledeged, and then the comment made, "But who cares," I wonder how long "being an American" will mean much.

The polarization in this country, especially as seen in the last election is widening and growing. From where I sit the media is doing a bang-up job of contributing to the sense of distrust among Americans.

[Dandelion]

Yes, but when I read statements like a branch of the government is acting unconstitutionally, it is acknowledeged, and then the comment made, "But who cares," I wonder how long "being an American" will mean much.

The polarization in this country, especially as seen in the last election is widening and growing. From where I sit the media is doing a bang-up job of contributing to the sense of distrust among Americans.

 

:iagree:

 

It's scary and disheartening when you really start paying attention to what's happening in our country, and especially what is happening within our government.

 

I stopped tuning in to the mainstream media about 2 years ago. I get all my news from online sources I trust, various blogs, foreign news channels (it's so interesting to read how other countries view what's happening here - I find it's often much more objective reporting), etc. And I purposely visit sites/blogs that espouse different views - just so I can see and understand how "the other side" thinks and gain a balanced perspective. But our mainstream media is just a joke at this point - I'm surprised anyone still watches (and as far as some of them are concerned, I doubt anyone still does)...

[joannqn]

And you think folks will want to pay state taxes anymore than federal ones? :lol:

 

At least the tax money stays local with local control and local benefits.

[Brigitte]

And you think folks will want to pay state taxes anymore than federal ones? :lol:

 

Um, NO! However, if people feel like their money is staying close to home, they might feel slightly less antagonistic about it than they do about sending it to the federal govt. :tongue_smilie:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Um, NO! However, if people feel like their money is staying close to home, they might feel slightly less antagonistic about it than they do about sending it to the federal govt. :tongue_smilie:

 

Actually IMHO I could never understand that sentiment since I often suspect that locally there are more shenanigans. In our neck of the woods there have been ongoing investigations into the outrageous activities of various aspects of local governments.

 

OTOH, a close family member recently got a job on the federal level and I was quite impressed with all of the safeguards in place to prevent favoritism in hiring and whatnot which seems to non-existent on the local levels and I suspect that this is repeated all over the country:(

 

Also, for what it is worth, I know of many people who serve our local, county, state, and federal governments who are hard working, honest fellow Americans. Afterall, the government is "us" IMHO.

[Carol in Cal.]

... all of this arguing about politics and policies is just disguising the real power grab, by international capitol. The investigative reporting doesn't often cover that sort of thing anymore. It's been really interesting to watch the change in the media, left, right, and center, as ownership of it has centralized.

[mlbuchina]

I am confused:confused: Are you against laws against texting and driving? IMHO I think that is a sensible law since there should be consequences if someone does that since it is equivalent to drinking and driving. I do not see that as a nanny state since without a law there would be no legal punishment for people who do so IMO. As a nurse who took care of car accident victims for years , I see sensible laws like these as a good thing:)

 

I'm also against laws telling me I HAVE to wear a seatbelt. There are consequences if you decide to drive while texting. It is called a car wreck, probable injury to yourself or others, definately having to pay for the damage to your or other's car, hospital bills, etc. if there are any. And there is more, I'm sure. If you didn't do that, you most likely will be taken to court. Same thing with a seatbelt. I understand about your being concerned about the people you took care of as a nurse. You were witnessing people having to deal with their or other's mistakes and dumb decisions. There is plenty of ways to be compensated. We don't need a law to cover every little aspect of our lives.

 

As far as personal responsibility, as a person from the conservative liberal viewpoint, I strongly believe in personal responsibility and I honestly think many people on both sides do as well. Of course, there are many egregious examples of people who like :)blame others all the time and never take any personal responsibility and of course I think this wrong:glare:

 

To me, this contradicts your previous statement. If you believe people should take responsibility for their own actions, then why do you want laws that take it away? That take away even the ability to actually make the decision?

 

If I choose to text while driving, and I end up running into someone, then I am hit with the consequenses. No law needed.

 

My 2 cents:001_smile:

 

Diddo

 

 

I have been reading a book called The Politically Incorrect Guide to The Founding Fathers, and it has taught me a lot about that "glue" you were asking about. Tocqueville also spoke of this in Democracy in America: "In the United States, the motherland is felt everywhere and is a subject of concern from village to the whole Union. The inhabitants care about each of their country's interests as they would their own. They rejoice in the glory of the nation in whose successes they recognize their own contribution and are uplifted. They are elated by the all-round prosperity from which they benefit. They have for their homeland a feeling much the same as they have for their own families." Doesn't sound too much like us today, does it? He also said: "The efforts of individuals, combined with those of society, often achieve what the most intense and energetic administration would fail to achieve." (emphasis mine) Yea, I don't see people living that either. Can we say "Health Care Bill"?

 

I grew up thinking it was the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

 

Then I discovered that not everyone thought they were relevant.

 

So I shifted to the concept of "The United States of America, and the Republic on which it stands".

 

Then I discovered that not everyone grasped either the concept of individual states' rights nor the concept of a Republic.

 

Now I just kinda cry. I don't see a lot of glue.

 

 

asta

:iagree:

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, but when I read statements like a branch of the government is acting unconstitutionally, it is acknowledeged, and then the comment made, "But who cares," I wonder how long "being an American" will mean much.

The polarization in this country, especially as seen in the last election is widening and growing. From where I sit the media is doing a bang-up job of contributing to the sense of distrust among Americans.

 

 

Our media does the same. A paranoid population is easy to control, I guess. It sure worked for our previous government, and this government will get themselves voted out for not fearmongering enough, I think.

 

What do you want "being an American" to mean? You can wipe a country off the map and the population can still keep their national identity. "Being American" might not mean what you want it to mean, but I don't think the concept is in danger of extinction.

 

I stopped tuning in to the mainstream media about 2 years ago.But our mainstream media is just a joke at this point - I'm surprised anyone still watches (and as far as some of them are concerned, I doubt anyone still does)...

 

I've often wondered if we'd all be better off if no one watched it. I wonder how they'd feed us their propaganda if we didn't. ("They" being anyone and everyone.)

 

Break out the picketing signs - The Americans are discussing their differences!!:lol:

 

*snicker*

 

Rosie

[Jenny in Atl]

Um, NO! However, if people feel like their money is staying close to home, they might feel slightly less antagonistic about it than they do about sending it to the federal govt. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've got a great bridge for you then!

[coffeefreak]

I've got a great bridge for you then!

 

:lol:

[asta]

I've often wondered if we'd all be better off if no one watched it. I wonder how they'd feed us their propaganda if we didn't. ("They" being anyone and everyone.)

 

 

 

*snicker*

 

Rosie

 

Because then there would be no one to hear...

 

 

 

"We have always been at war with Oceania".

 

 

a

 

 

 

(with apologies that it is quoted under your post, Rosie)

[laughing lioness]

 

What do you want "being an American" to mean? You can wipe a country off the map and the population can still keep their national identity. "Being American" might not mean what you want it to mean, but I don't think the concept is in danger of extinction.

 

 

Good point. But I think we are getting to a point as a country where a lot of people are from America, but don't have a lot of buy-in into "being American." Case in point- during the last election, we heard lots of rhetoric about how ashamed we should be as a country. How we were an international embarrassment. Really? This from people living in comfort and freedom and no fear. WHY on earth do they think people WANT asylum in America????

We've been living in suburbia since the house fire and are surrounded by middle-class, apathetic consumerism. Lots of Americans have grown fat and happy and are making decisions to trade thier freedom for security.

(I know that's a loaded statement-wishing I was as articulate as asta or Nan in Mass right now. And my dh is taking the computer for the day, so I won't be back on line for hours).

I just think we are in a time of serious transition and what emerges from the next 2-3 decades will be far different than what most of us have grown up with.

Mainstream media- gag.

[creekland]

Cities boycotting Arizona

Los Angeles, Pasadena, San Diego, Sacremento, Oakland, San Francisco

Houston, Dallas, El Paso, Austin

Boston, Seattle, St. Paul, Boulder, DC

 

Many thanks for this list. I now have places where we WON'T be going on vacation this year - nor will we take more day trips into DC for a while.

[Orthodox6]

. What are American values? If we hold such opposing views, what is the glue that keeps America together?

 

I do not believe that anything at all holds together the United States, beyond a shared belief in the freedom of an individual to do whatsoever he considers his own right. Even this actual freedom often pales to only a perceived freedom, when some law or ordinance intervenes.

 

Setting aside the obvious and legitimate claims of AmerIndians (forgive me if I do not know what currently acceptable terminology to use) to North America, we are left with the fact that, by definition, "American" is a hodgepodge ethnicity derived from ever-increasingly-diverse membership. There can be no overarching "shared values" when a country's population includes multiple, often antagonistic, cultural backgrounds.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Orthodox6

[Orthodox6]

Cities boycotting Arizona

Los Angeles, Pasadena, San Diego, Sacremento, Oakland, San Francisco

Houston, Dallas, El Paso, Austin

Boston, Seattle, St. Paul, Boulder, DC

 

Dallas, as a city, is not boycotting Arizona at this time. There was a group of Dallas residents who attended a rally in Arizona; however, that does not equate to the city government sponsoring, or supporting, a boycott. At this stage, there is only a suggestion by two Dallas City Council members that such a "ban" be enacted.

[creekland]

So I see now that AZ is potentially open to helping Los Angelas boycott them... way to go AZ! ;) I'm hoping they do it...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/19/arizona-official-threatens-cut-los-angeles-power-payback-boycott/

[MyLittleWonders]

Many thanks for this list. I now have places where we WON'T be going on vacation this year - nor will we take more day trips into DC for a while.

 

But to me, boycotting a city/state that is boycotting AZ is just as wrong. Why hurt, potentially, the residents of the cities boycotting AZ, when chances are, they may not support their city's boycott, nor had anything to do with it in the first place. I can understand boycotting individual businesses that are boycotting AZ; they are putting their financial and business reputation on the line, and not buying from them hurts them directly. But not giving business or tourism to an entire city or state because the lawmakers in that city or state decided that they were boycotting AZ just hurts the residents. You can't assume that everyone that lives in those areas support their elected officials or even voted for them. But, it is the individuals and the small businesses that will be hurt, not the career politicians that think boycotting an entire state is a viable response to AZ's immigration law.

[creekland]

Why hurt, potentially, the residents of the cities boycotting AZ, when chances are, they may not support their city's boycott, nor had anything to do with it in the first place. .

 

The whole idea of the powers that be that passed the original boycott(s) is to get business people and ordinary citizens to pressure their officials to revoke what was passed.

 

I firmly believe those powers that be should get a taste of what they want others to do. Personally, I'm not even all that in favor of AZ's law as I don't give a hoot about illegal aliens as long as they are not doing other criminal acts. And yes, either way, some "innocent" people get hurt, but since that's what certain higher ups wanted to happen, let them see it happen - in their OWN city or state. I feel REALLY strongly about that principle and will act on it.

 

Seeing the later story on the textbook issue CA is trying to create we plan to skip that state in its entirety when we travel. There are plenty of other places to go. We don't even need to stop there on a layover. Certain state officials there really seem to have their heads in the clouds.

[Vida Winter]

So I see now that AZ is potentially open to helping Los Angelas boycott them... way to go AZ! ;) I'm hoping they do it...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/19/arizona-official-threatens-cut-los-angeles-power-payback-boycott/

 

 

Bwahahahaha! They probably won't actually do this but I love it that they are threatening to.

 

"Doggone it -- if you're going to boycott this candy store ... then don't come in for any of it."

[homeschoolin'mygirls]

If I choose to text while driving, and I end up running into someone, then I am hit with the consequences. No law needed.

 

I could not possibly disagree with this more.

 

A person's 'right' to text while driving does not supersede my right for my loved ones as well as myself to have the safest driving conditions possible. Texting individuals are 23 times more likely to be involved in an accident than nontexting drivers. http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10296992-94.html

 

Willfully driving and texting on the premise that the consequences are your own is both irresponsible and foolish. The consequences aren't only yours--you are knowingly taking the chance of maiming/killing or at the very least traumatizing the person you run into.

 

My guess (hope) is that this is a theoretical argument used to illustrate your point. But I think that this is a poor analogy for your point of personal accountability.