Great Books (early modern/modern)

[SS in MD]

Dd will be starting early modern period in history in the fall. I *really* want to incoporate a Great Books study alongside her history (wtm way). I haven't do it before, so I'm hoping someone could give me a list on "don't miss" great books for early modern (1600-1850) and also for modern time period (1850 - present) to be done following year.. Also, do use any online resources to help with discussion topics - PP, VP, online sparknotes..?)?

 

Thanks!

Sangita

dd(14),dd(12),dd(9),ds(6)

[Gratia271]

:bigear:

[Mama Lynx]

Here is the list we will choose from - literature is in parenthesis. This is just for year 3 history, stopping just before the Civil War:

 

(Don Quixote)

(Paradise Lost)

(Pilgrim’s Progress)

An Essay Concerning Human Understanding - Locke

A Modest Proposal - Swift

The Mayflower Compact

On American Taxation - Burke

The War For Independence - Marrin (not a Great Book, but an excellent book on the War)

The Social Contract - Rousseau

The Autobiography - Benjamin Franklin

The Declaration of Independence

Critique of Pure Reason - Kant

The Federalist Papers

The Anti-Federalist Papers

The Constitution

The Rights of Man - Thomas Paine

(Pride and Prejudice)

(Frankenstein)

(The Last of the Mohicans)

(Poe)

(The Scarlet Letter)

Self-Reliance - Emerson

(Jane Eyre)

(Moby Dick)

(Huckleberry Finn)

Democracy in America - deToqueville (selections)

Communist Manifesto - Marx and Engels

(Uncle Tom’s Cabin)

Walden or Civil Disobedience - Thoreau

And poets - John Donne, Longfellow, Byron/Shelley/Keats, Coleridge

Churchill - Age of Revolutions (from History of the English Speaking Peoples)

(Tale of Two Cities)

[Gratia271]

Thanks for sharing your list. Do you plan on using Churchill for your spine? I am looking for different options regarding a spine reference and cannot really get any feedback on what others use.

[Mama Lynx]

Thanks for sharing your list. Do you plan on using Churchill for your spine? I am looking for different options regarding a spine reference and cannot really get any feedback on what others use.

 

We are considering it, yes. I think it would make a very interesting spine.

 

Other than that, I'm not entirely happy with any other spines. Everything is either very much slanted one way or the other, or is horribly dry and boring. I don't necessarily mind picking slanted texts for my own children, because we can discuss the slant; but I'll be teaching other peoples' kids too, which makes me more hesitant to choose. Churchill, though, is a primary source for the history that he lived through.

 

I have the most recent edition of WTM on the way from the library to see what spines SWB recommends. LCC and Ambleside both recommend Churchill.

[SS in MD]

Here is the list we will choose from - literature is in parenthesis. This is just for year 3 history, stopping just before the Civil War:

 

(Don Quixote)

(Paradise Lost)

(Pilgrim’s Progress)

An Essay Concerning Human Understanding - Locke

A Modest Proposal - Swift

The Mayflower Compact

On American Taxation - Burke

The War For Independence - Marrin (not a Great Book, but an excellent book on the War)

The Social Contract - Rousseau

The Autobiography - Benjamin Franklin

The Declaration of Independence

Critique of Pure Reason - Kant

The Federalist Papers

The Anti-Federalist Papers

The Constitution

The Rights of Man - Thomas Paine

(Pride and Prejudice)

(Frankenstein)

(The Last of the Mohicans)

(Poe)

(The Scarlet Letter)

Self-Reliance - Emerson

(Jane Eyre)

(Moby Dick)

(Huckleberry Finn)

Democracy in America - deToqueville (selections)

Communist Manifesto - Marx and Engels

(Uncle Tom’s Cabin)

Walden or Civil Disobedience - Thoreau

And poets - John Donne, Longfellow, Byron/Shelley/Keats, Coleridge

Churchill - Age of Revolutions (from History of the English Speaking Peoples)

(Tale of Two Cities)

 

Stephanie,

What are you using for Year 3 history?? Are you doing it on your own or a already made curriculum? I see you are using TOG this year. If you plan to continue with TOG what Year and Units will you be doing for wtm year 3 (1600-prior to Civil War)? I noticed that TOG uses Norton Anthology of English Lit, (if you continue to use TOG) will you use Norton or "real" texts?

 

Thanks so much for the list & your additional help!

Sangita

 

 

Thanks!

Sangita

[SS in MD]

Stephanie,

Sorry!! I don't know why I thought I saw TOG in your sig!!

Anyway, dismiss my TOG questions!

 

I have the wtm book open to SWB recommendations for rhetoric spines - here they are -

Early Modern - America - A Narrative History, George B. Tindall (read sections dealing w/American upto 1850

A History of Asia, Rhoads Murphey (read section dealing w/Asia 1600-1850

I haven't personally looked at either of these - Hopefully our library will have copies and I can leaf thru' them. Can you give me the Churchill title?

 

Thanks!!!

Sangita

[Gratia271]

It is one of the volumes from his four volume series, History of the English Speaking Peoples. I don't know whether it is available other than purchasing through OOP sources. There is a combined volume, and there is a set of four separate volumes. Below are a few links to review. Thanks for the spine references from new WTM! http://www.amazon.com/Churchills-History-English-Speaking-Peoples/dp/1566198135/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274214962&sr=1-2 http://www.amazon.com/History-English-Speaking-People-4/dp/077102004X

[Mama Lynx]

Oh, thank you!

 

You *did* see TOG in my sig. I just took it out. We used it, and enjoyed it, for the past two years.

 

We would use Units 3 and 4 of year two, and units 1 and 2 of year 3 for this year. I broke them out that way because it matched the WTM breakdown better. The first time we did that rotation, we just skipped units 3 and 4 of year 4, at the end.

 

We are not continuing with TOG right now for a couple of reasons. One is that I'm teaching this class as a co-op, and I think the Great Books model will better fit our needs. Another is that I had to find something else for our high school ancients year anyway, because TOG Year 1 does not work for us (though we enjoy the other years).

 

I do prefer to read more of the entire work than to use the anthologies, but I don't think there's anything wrong with using the anthologies, either. That's what we used for our lit survey courses in college. In fact, I think the TOG rhetoric literature is very comparable to my college classes.

[SS in MD]

Oh, thank you!

 

You *did* see TOG in my sig. I just took it out. We used it, and enjoyed it, for the past two years.

 

We would use Units 3 and 4 of year two, and units 1 and 2 of year 3 for this year. I broke them out that way because it matched the WTM breakdown better. The first time we did that rotation, we just skipped units 3 and 4 of year 4, at the end.

 

We are not continuing with TOG right now for a couple of reasons. One is that I'm teaching this class as a co-op, and I think the Great Books model will better fit our needs. Another is that I had to find something else for our high school ancients year anyway, because TOG Year 1 does not work for us (though we enjoy the other years).

 

I do prefer to read more of the entire work than to use the anthologies, but I don't think there's anything wrong with using the anthologies, either. That's what we used for our lit survey courses in college. In fact, I think the TOG rhetoric literature is very comparable to my college classes.

 

I chuckled when I read the first line of your post! B/c I was so sure I saw TOG, then later when I re-read my post & looked at your sig, I did a double take, blinked my eyes and really thought I was loosing my mind! LOL.

 

Thanks for the info on TOG. My two older dds (14 & 12 yo) used it this year (Year 2 Units 1 & 2). Oldest dd (14 yo) did the rhetoric history core (not lit). They both liked the year, but oldest said Unit 2 most of the reading from from Famous Men of the Ren & Ref and so she didn't get a good handle on history (of course she didn't mention anything at the time! lol!)

 

Next year oldest will be entering 9th grade and I am *trying* to find a history curriculum (early modern 1600-1850, or perhaps something that covers early mod - modern because dd wants to do AP Govt in 10th) which encorporates GB study alongside with lit analysis. I've looked at VP Omnibus III, but some of the readings I'm not that keen on, and it looks like history is in snippets... so now I'm looking at TOG (rest of year 2 & first two units of Year 3). The reason I didn't look at TOG 1st is b/c I've seen from Year 2 teacher notes that rhetoric disscussion is 2 hrs! I honestly can't devote 2 hrs weekly since I'm teaching 3 other dc (1 in dialectic, and 2 in grammar stage - just doing SOTW w/AG). Also, I've heard from other TOG moms that dc get much more out of rhetoric discussion if in a group setting (co-op)... Another thing, I would *like* to use real texts instead of Norton Anth. but that is not a "show stopper".

 

Anyway, I'm wondering if you've done TOG with a rhetoric dc? How did you like it? Did discussions go 2 hrs? (that's sort of scarying dd!) Also, what are the history core bks for Y2 U3 & 34, Y3 U1 & U2? (There is no year 3 sample online, so I couldn't figure that out). Rather not have a book like Famous Men for dd as main core text. Do you think I could use TOG but use "real" texts instead of Norton & still use the dicussion questions?

 

I'd really just like to find a history curriclum with a good, engaging history spine with GB book study & lit analysis.... Any helpful advice or curricula that might fit the bill?? I'm so tired of looking and looking... maybe I need to piece something together myself. How are you putting together your co-op class? What spine are you using and GB books?

 

Sorry to ramble... I guess I wish I had it all figured out... I want to relax this summer! LOL!

 

Thanks so much,

Sangita

dd(14),dd(12),dd(9),ds(6)

[SS in MD]

It is one of the volumes from his four volume series, History of the English Speaking Peoples. I don't know whether it is available other than purchasing through OOP sources. There is a combined volume, and there is a set of four separate volumes. Below are a few links to review. Thanks for the spine references from new WTM! http://www.amazon.com/Churchills-History-English-Speaking-Peoples/dp/1566198135/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274214962&sr=1-2 http://www.amazon.com/History-English-Speaking-People-4/dp/077102004X

 

Thanks for the link - I hadn't heard of the text before. Where have you heard of it? It looks like a great book - wish there were online samples! Thanks again!

[Skadi]

Dd will be starting early modern period in history in the fall. I *really* want to incoporate a Great Books study alongside her history (wtm way). I haven't do it before, so I'm hoping someone could give me a list on "don't miss" great books for early modern (1600-1850) and also for modern time period (1850 - present) to be done following year..

 

 

Early Modern Times

Divine Meditations by John Donne (c. 1635)

Principles of Philosophy by Rene Descartes (1644)

Paradise Lost (selections) by Milton (1664)

“An Essay Concerning Human Understanding†by John Locke (1690)

“On American Taxation†by Burke (1774)

The War for Independence by Albert Marrin

“The Social Contract†by Rousseau (1762)

The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (1771)

The United States Constitution: A Graphic Adaptation by Hennessey (1776)

Revolutionary Characters by Gordon Wood audiobook (1776)

“Critique of Pure Reason†by Kant (1781)

The Federalist Papers by Hamilton et.al.

Songs of Innocence and Experience by Blake (1789)

Les Miserables by Victor Hugo audiobook with Bill Homewood (1789)

“The Rights of Man†by Paine (1792)

Lyrical Ballads by Wordsworth and Coleridge (1798)

Napoleon: A Life by Paul Johnson (1799)

Emma by Jane Austen (1815)

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley audiobook with Simon Vance (1818)

The Last of the Mohicans by Cooper (1826)

“The Lady of Shalott†and other poems of Tennyson (1832)

“The Fall of the House of Usher†and other stories of Poe (1839)

“Self-Reliance†by Emerson (1844)

Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte (1847)

Moby Dick by Melville audiobook with Burt Reynolds (1851)

 

Modern Times

The Law by Frederic Bastiat (1848)

Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engles (1848)

Democracy in America by de Tocqueville (1850)

North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell (1855)

Walden by Thoreau (1854)

Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman (1855)

Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky audiobook with Alex Jennings (1856)

On the Origin of Species: Illustrated Edition by Darwin & Quammen (1859)

Great Expectations by Dickens (1861)

Anna Karenina by Tolstoy audiobook with Davina Porter (1864)

Thus Spoke Zarathustra by Nietzsche (1883)

Selected Poems, W. B. Yeats (1895)

“The Innocence of Father Brown†by Chesterton (1911)

Selected Poems by Wilfrid Owen (1918)

The Poetry of Robert Frost: Collected Poems (1924)

Treatise on the Gods by H.L. Mencken (1930)

“Four Quartets†by T. S. Eliot audiobook read by Ralph Fiennes (1936)

Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck (1939)

Hitler, Churchill and the Unnecessary War by Patrick Buchanan (1939)

The Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek (1944)

Animal Farm by Orwell (1945)

The Old Man and the Sea by Hemingway, audiobook w/ Donald Sutherland (1952)

A Clockwork Orange by Burgess, audiobook with Tom Hollander (1963)

[choirfarm]

Anyway, I'm wondering if you've done TOG with a rhetoric dc? How did you like it? Did discussions go 2 hrs? (that's sort of scarying dd!) Also, what are the history core bks for Y2 U3 & 34, Y3 U1 & U2? (There is no year 3 sample online, so I couldn't figure that out). Rather not have a book like Famous Men for dd as main core text. Do you think I could use TOG but use "real" texts instead of Norton & still use the dicussion questions?

 

Sangita

dd(14),dd(12),dd(9),ds(6)

 

Hi! I've done TOG for the past 3 years and we just did rhetoric this past year. There isn't a spine per say but individual books for rhetoric this past year. I liked them and he liked them. I didn't notice using a ton of Norton this past year (year 3) I never worry about page numbers for lit as I have most of the selections on my shelf. I had my students read the real thing of everything including Les Miserables. It was great. I did the dialectic and rhetoric discussions together and they took about an hour, not two. The only way I could see them taking two hours would be in a co-op setting. Literature can take another half an hour to an hour, though. Then church history can take more time. I typically do those on different days and many times we will discuss two or three weeks of church history at one time.

 

Christine

[Jane in NC]

“Four Quartets†by T. S. Eliot audiobook read by Ralph Fiennes (1936)

 

 

STOP THE PRESSES!!!

 

Ralph Fiennes reading my favorite works of poetry?? Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.

 

I'm practically feeling giddy!

[Skadi]

:001_wub: Yep, you can buy it here!

[Mama Lynx]

STOP THE PRESSES!!!

 

Ralph Fiennes reading my favorite works of poetry?? Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention.

 

I'm practically feeling giddy!

 

And if you like Shakespeare's sonnets, you might also want to check this out :) (You can buy from Amazon, but I liked to Wikipedia because Amazon doesn't have the listing of artists.)

[Gratia271]

Thanks for the link - I hadn't heard of the text before. Where have you heard of it? It looks like a great book - wish there were online samples! Thanks again!

 

The Latin Centered Curriculum recommends it. I already owned Winston Churchill's War Series, which my husband and I highly regard. I found a set of Churchill's History of English Speaking Peoples used in "very good" condition... we'll see what I end up with. ;)

[Karenciavo]

We used Churchill and enjoyed it very much.

 

Some Modern Great Books read this year and last:

Faust, by Goethe

Pride and Prejudice, by Austen

Billy Budd, by Melville

Les Miserables, by Hugo

The Scarlett Letter, by Hawthorne

Great Expectations, Dickens

Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Twain

Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Stowe

An Ideal Husband, by Wilde

Metamorphosis, by Kafka

The Plague, by Albert Camus

The Death of Ivan Ilych, by Leo Tolstoy

The Brothers Karamazov, by Dostoevsky

Crime and Punishment, by Dostoevsky

Demons, by Dostoevsky

The Violent Bear it Away, by Flannery O'Connor

The Great Gatsby, by F. Scott Fitzgerald

Jayber Crowe, by Wendell Berry

1984, by Orwell

Animal Farm, by Orwell

Brave New World, by Huxley

Heart of Darkness by Conrad

Cry, the Beloved Country by Paton

Anthem, by Rand (not really a "Great Book" I guess)

Atlas Shrugged, by Rand (ditto+, actually her character development - or lack there of - annoys me)

To Kill a Mocking Bird, by Lee

All Quiet on the Western Front, by Remarque

The Pearl, by Steinbeck

The Old Man and the Sea, by Hemingway

Fahrenheit 451, by Bradbury

Waiting for Godot, by Beckett

 

I think that's it.

[Mama Lynx]

Karen,

 

So did you read the Churchill straight through, or did you parcel it out, as a spine? Did your student find it readable? (I have it on my table, but haven't read yet!) Do you think it did a good job in conveying the history?

[Gratia271]

Karen,

 

So did you read the Churchill straight through, or did you parcel it out, as a spine? Did your student find it readable? (I have it on my table, but haven't read yet!) Do you think it did a good job in conveying the history?

 

That is what I was just going to ask.... does it work as a spine?

[Karenciavo]

Karen,

 

So did you read the Churchill straight through, or did you parcel it out, as a spine? Did your student find it readable? (I have it on my table, but haven't read yet!) Do you think it did a good job in conveying the history?

 

We used it with TOG and like we do with books such as The Story of the Greeks, The Story of the Romans, we pretty much read it straight through. I did not start the text until Year 3, but we went back and started reading it at the beginning of the House of Hanover. Overall my older two liked the book, it was difficult at times not being completely familiar with British history, names are dropped and we were like, "Who is that again?" I was surprised by a couple of things: 1. The coverage the American Civil War received, and 2. That the history ends with Victoria's death. I kept thinking I had misplaced the 5th volume and went nuts looking for it till I finally figured out that's all folks. :lol:

 

ETA: Yes, I do think he did a good job in conveying the history. His perspective was different in a few areas as you might imagine. I specifically remember the use of quotation marks when describing the Boston "massacre" (small m - I could almost imagine his eye roll). And referring to Samuel Adams as a radical. But he's fair, and points out where George III and parliament failed.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Karenciavo

[SS in MD]

Hi! I've done TOG for the past 3 years and we just did rhetoric this past year. There isn't a spine per say but individual books for rhetoric this past year. I liked them and he liked them. I didn't notice using a ton of Norton this past year (year 3) I never worry about page numbers for lit as I have most of the selections on my shelf. I had my students read the real thing of everything including Les Miserables. It was great. I did the dialectic and rhetoric discussions together and they took about an hour, not two. The only way I could see them taking two hours would be in a co-op setting. Literature can take another half an hour to an hour, though. Then church history can take more time. I typically do those on different days and many times we will discuss two or three weeks of church history at one time.

 

Christine

 

You said you did dialectic & rhetoric together - I'm curious, did you read thru' all the dialectic answers to accountability & thinking Q's with both dc, then read thru' the rhetoric discussion with both dc? Is there ever any overlap? I don't know if either of my dc will want to sit thru' both sets of discussions (lol!)

 

Did TOG for Year 2 (U3,U4) or Year 3 (U1 & U2) use primary source documents?

 

Also, if you always had your dc read the "real" book, did it push TOG schedule back? Just wondering if you needed 2 weeks to cover 1 wk of TOG when using the "real" bks?

 

Thanks!

Sangita

[SS in MD]

Early Modern Times

Divine Meditations by John Donne (c. 1635)

Principles of Philosophy by Rene Descartes (1644)

Paradise Lost (selections) by Milton (1664)

“An Essay Concerning Human Understanding†by John Locke (1690)

“On American Taxation†by Burke (1774)

The War for Independence by Albert Marrin

“The Social Contract†by Rousseau (1762)

The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin (1771)

The United States Constitution: A Graphic Adaptation by Hennessey (1776)

Revolutionary Characters by Gordon Wood audiobook (1776)

“Critique of Pure Reason†by Kant (1781)

The Federalist Papers by Hamilton et.al.

Songs of Innocence and Experience by Blake (1789)

Les Miserables by Victor Hugo audiobook with Bill Homewood (1789)

“The Rights of Man†by Paine (1792)

Lyrical Ballads by Wordsworth and Coleridge (1798)

Napoleon: A Life by Paul Johnson (1799)

Emma by Jane Austen (1815)

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley audiobook with Simon Vance (1818)

The Last of the Mohicans by Cooper (1826)

“The Lady of Shalott†and other poems of Tennyson (1832)

“The Fall of the House of Usher†and other stories of Poe (1839)

“Self-Reliance†by Emerson (1844)

Wuthering Heights by Emily Bronte (1847)

Moby Dick by Melville audiobook with Burt Reynolds (1851)

 

Modern Times

The Law by Frederic Bastiat (1848)

........ and the rest....

 

Thanks so much for this list. I'm wondering did you put together your own curriculum for early mod/mod? If so, what spine did you dc use? I'm trying to decide whether to piece my own for 9th or use pre-pkged.

 

Also, for the above books, did you follow wtm/wem for GB discussion with your dc? I'm assuming you also read each title?

 

Thanks again,

Sangita

[choirfarm]

You said you did dialectic & rhetoric together - I'm curious, did you read thru' all the dialectic answers to accountability & thinking Q's with both dc, then read thru' the rhetoric discussion with both dc? Is there ever any overlap? I don't know if either of my dc will want to sit thru' both sets of discussions (lol!)

 

Did TOG for Year 2 (U3,U4) or Year 3 (U1 & U2) use primary source documents?

 

Also, if you always had your dc read the "real" book, did it push TOG schedule back? Just wondering if you needed 2 weeks to cover 1 wk of TOG when using the "real" bks?

 

Thanks!

Sangita

 

For discussions: it depends. We generally discuss the presidents together. They may not have exact questions, but I will ask one from rhetoric and then one from dialectic and ask the other one what they think. Or I might say something very general like: let's talk about this presiden't early life. If, the rhetoric has some in-depth topic that the dialectic one doesn't have then I dismiss him.

 

Primary documents: Yes. They have a series. The one he is using is called The Gilded Age a History in Documents. He's had a book like that in every quarter. I think next year it continues.

 

Now at the rhetoric level, they mostly read original works unabridged. The exception being Les Mis. The dialectic, on the other hand, was mostly abriged, but we read the real things. I'm probably the wrong person to ask about how it affected the schedule. I do my own thing on that side. My boys read REALLY fast, especially my 13yo. He was supposed to read an abriged version of Tom Sawyer, but he read the real thing and liked it so much that he read Huck Finn in 3 days. He made a higher grade on my Huck Finn exam than my 9th grader!!! I typically give my dialectic the book TOG has scheduled for 2 or 3 weeks along with all the worksheets. He generally has it read in the first day or two and then does the worksheets the rest of the week. I've added a ton for him. I'm moving him up to rhetoric next year.

 

For my 9th grader, I modified it some and had him read some of the extra things I gave my 7th grader: Red Badge of Courage is one that comes to mind. We read A Tale of Two Cities instead of Great Expectations since it is one of my favorite books and I have all my teaching materials for it. I skipped Crime and Punishment for my 9th grader and we did Importance of Being Earnest, Invisible Man and something else I can't think of right now. That is what I like so much about TOG, you can go between levels and pick what works for you!!! I'm really comfortable teaching literature, so I do what I want.

 

Christine