WWYD - Physics Final Exam failure

[Miss Marple]

I teach Conceptual Physics in our co-op (for the 2nd time) and have 8 students in grades 10 and up, and 7 students in grades 8 and 9.

 

They were alerted to the final exam weeks ago, given a study guide which basically consisted of reviewing the Concept Review of Chapters 1-11 as well as the review questions for each chapter.

 

The test was created with information *directly* from those sources and included 6 points of possible extra credit.

 

The grades ranged from 102% to 37% (3 A's; 3 B's; 3 C's, 2 D's; 3 F's). The top 5 scores were the 8th and 9th graders with one exception (10th grade boy). All the D's and F's were (5 students) were grades 10 and above. Several of those that failed took my chemistry course last year.

 

ALL the 8th and 9th graders passed the course with 4 in the top 5 scores. It seems obvious to me that the older students totally blew off studying. The younger students had 3 exams on the same co-op day (1 in each class).

 

If you were the teacher, would you offer a "redeeming" test for those who did so poorly? I hope the parents and the students received a wake-up call and I would love to have the students be successful, but it will be a lot of work for me and I wonder if the students will even bother to study for that.

 

What do you all think?

[Jane in NC]

What were the older students' grades going into the final? Were they passing the course? And what percentage of their final grade is this exam?

 

Jane (who would be tempted to let the chips fall where they have fallen)

Edited May 6, 2010 by Jane in NC

[Miss Marple]

The parents were supposed to be testing at home. They were given a packet of tests as well as a worked answer key for each test. I was to supply the lecture and lab. Most of the older students turned in completed lab reports regularly.

 

I offered outside tutoring to which only the younger students typically came. None of the moms ever indicated that the students were doing poorly although I regularly sent e-mails indicating that if anyone was having problems I was available. One of the younger students (8th grade) was not doing well going into the final, but pulled out an 81%! He studied his heart out, called me with questions, and did a fantastic job on the final. If it was possible for him to do it, the others could have as well.

 

ETA: two of the students who took chemistry last year from me could not get the extra credit question that asked: what does an atom consist of: (protons, neutrons, electrons). One wrote: molecules; the other wrote: ions :glare:

Edited May 6, 2010 by CynthiaOK

[Jane in NC]

So are the parents computing the final grades? If so, you might ask them if they want their (not so) Little Darlings to retake the test. It is an imposition on your time, however, to write version two of an exam.

 

I would not be a very happy camper. Further, I don't think that I would want these students in my future courses!

[Miss Marple]

Further, I don't think that I would want these students in my future courses!

 

I'm with you there! And that's another topic - I'm wrestling with not teaching in our co-op anymore because this seems to be an ongoing problem. I would rather do it out of my home and charge a bit for the service. If people have to pay a bit for something, they usually see to it that they get their money's worth! However, all the moms are good friends and they are truly embarrassed by their kids' performance. It seems to me, though, that they should have been monitoring the studying a bit more.

[SonshineLearner]

I wouldn't offer a "grade", I would offer a 33/100 or whatever. Let their parents choose what they think that gaining 33 points out of a possible 100 is... or however you scored it. Why should you allow them to redeem a grade? Usually, their college professors won't! Now, if ALL the students had failed... or if it was all the youngers had... and the olders earned scores... then I might think differently about it.

 

:)

[Miss Marple]

That's how I sent out the grades. Basically I told them how I would assign the grades, but since it's the mom who gives the final grade, they can do with it whatever they wish.

[johnandtinagilbert]

So are the parents computing the final grades? If so, you might ask them if they want their (not so) Little Darlings to retake the test. It is an imposition on your time, however, to write version two of an exam.

I would not be a very happy camper. Further, I don't think that I would want these students in my future courses!

This is a problem in many co-op settings. People don't take it seriously. It's very rude, disrespectful and is reason enough for you to express yourself publicly. If you will spend that much time in any subject area, there should be some common courtesy and respect of your time and efforts.

 

I'm with you there! And that's another topic - I'm wrestling with not teaching in our co-op anymore because this seems to be an ongoing problem. I would rather do it out of my home and charge a bit for the service. If people have to pay a bit for something, they usually see to it that they get their money's worth! However, all the moms are good friends and they are truly embarrassed by their kids' performance. It seems to me, though, that they should have been monitoring the studying a bit more.

Not to be unkind, but they can be embarrassed all they want....if they're not doing anything about it, then they are focusing on their own embarrassment and certainly not offering you any respect. Can you tell this really annoys me? I think you have 2 options: teach at home next year (great idea) or teach in co-op but make it very clear that you expect a level of participation that includes home work and study time that leads to successful testing. If a parent or child cannot return what you expect, you absolutely have the right to dismiss them from your class.

[AnitaMcC]

The grades ranged from 102% to 37% (3 A's; 3 B's; 3 C's, 2 D's; 3 F's). The top 5 scores were the 8th and 9th graders with one exception (10th grade boy). All the D's and F's were (5 students) were grades 10 and above. Several of those that failed took my chemistry course last year.

 

If you were the teacher, would you offer a "redeeming" test for those who did so poorly? I hope the parents and the students received a wake-up call and I would love to have the students be successful, but it will be a lot of work for me and I wonder if the students will even bother to study for that.

 

What do you all think?

 

I would leave it up to the parents by offering, for a fee, another final exam. But make it clear that the grades will stand based upon whatever was set up from the start of the course when the parents registered their kids. The second test is only available for a fee since you need to do extra work to give these kids a second chance.

Edited May 6, 2010 by AnitaMcC

[bugs]

I'd let the grade stand. But then again I'm a hard a**.

 

You did your part - put in time, offered extra credit, etc. Older kids need to learn sooner that poor performance, planning, etc has consequences. I never had a college professor who would have given me a "second" chance.

 

Besides, giving a "redeeming" test who did poorly is unfair to those who took the time and effort to study. To me, it's similar to setting a date for a paper to be complete but then on the day it is due giving extra time to those who did not complete it.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'd let the grade stand. But then again I'm a hard a**.

 

You did your part - put in time, offered extra credit, etc. Older kids need to learn sooner that poor performance, planning, etc has consequences. I never had a college professor who would have given me a "second" chance.

 

Besides, giving a "redeeming" test who did poorly is unfair to those who took the time and effort to study. To me, it's similar to setting a date for a paper to be complete but then on the day it is due giving extra time to those who did not complete it.

:iagree:especially 10th graders...come on!

[MamaSheep]

I'd let the grade stand. But then again I'm a hard a**.

 

You did your part - put in time, offered extra credit, etc. Older kids need to learn sooner that poor performance, planning, etc has consequences. I never had a college professor who would have given me a "second" chance.

 

Besides, giving a "redeeming" test who did poorly is unfair to those who took the time and effort to study. To me, it's similar to setting a date for a paper to be complete but then on the day it is due giving extra time to those who did not complete it.

:iagree:

 

Yup. These kids, ESPECIALLY the 10th graders, are running out of time in which to learn hard lessons about responsibility before they will have to function on an adult level and failure to meet expected requirement will have truly serious consequences, like losing a job, having your home foreclosed, or being left by your spouse. Barring extenuating circumstances (like medical issues or unforseen catastrophic accidents) this sounds like an excellent opportunity for them to learn that their actions have consequences, and sometimes they can't be undone.

[G5052]

That's how I sent out the grades. Basically I told them how I would assign the grades, but since it's the mom who gives the final grade, they can do with it whatever they wish.

 

Provide the raw information, and leave it up to them. And it really doesn't matter how much they pay, you're still probably going to run into this. I've seen it, as have a number of local teachers I know including some who would be considered on the pricey side.

[NicksMama-Zack's Mama Too]

:iagree:

 

Yup. These kids, ESPECIALLY the 10th graders, are running out of time in which to learn hard lessons about responsibility before they will have to function on an adult level and failure to meet expected requirement will have truly serious consequences, like losing a job, having your home foreclosed, or being left by your spouse. Barring extenuating circumstances (like medical issues or unforseen catastrophic accidents) this sounds like an excellent opportunity for them to learn that their actions have consequences, and sometimes they can't be undone.

:iagree:

 

If I wanted grade-inflation, I would have sent my child to my local ps.

[SusanAR]

Wow, what a difficult position to be in, Cynthia. I think that I would let the grades stand. What about the poor 8th grader who studied diligently and asked questions, etc. What would he (and his parents) think if he found out that the older students were allowed to take the test again. :confused: He earned his grade, the others did not.

 

Something for nothing is a reflection of our society, is it not?

[Miss Marple]

Thank you all! You've helped me put the focus where it needs to be - on those who studied and succeeded. I'll let the parents deal with the slackers :D

[Susan C.]

Some college classes only give the final 10% - 15% of the total grade. Others go on a points earned/points possible, then do a percentage. If the parents didn't give the tests, then you don't have all of the information you need unless you give a zero...

 

I complain regularly about people not taking education seriously..... homeschoolers need to know that if they don't self regulate, it will be done for them. I knew kids that co-op was all they did in a subject, meaning the class, no homework.

 

Co-ops are too much like regular school for my liking. My kids would have loved to have a teacher knowledgeable in a subject, but when other kids are in there and don't want to be, it ruins the whole deal.

[Teachin'Mine]

I think I'd be inclined to give the grades to the parents as they stand. These kids are almost in college - they need a wake up call. Probably the difference is that for the 8th and 9th graders the parents are more involved - probably more motivated students too - and for the 10th and older, the parents are more hands-off and the kids are just goofing off.

 

I might send a note along with the scores expressing my concern with the lack of preparation, and ask them to call me. See how many parents follow up, and that will give you an idea if they care enough to try harder on a second test. I would then average the grades of the two tests - not just dismiss the first one.

 

I guess I'm tough too, but the students should be working at least as hard as the teacher.

[Miss Marple]

but when other kids are in there and don't want to be, it ruins the whole deal.

 

Exactly! I've been wrestling with this thought for the past several years. My boys are decently bright and I hoped that co-op would allow them to experience group projects, a teacher who was passionate about her subject, etc. But what I'm seeing in my own kids is that the "do nothing" attitude is wearing off on them. I don't want that, but I want the advantages of co-op. So I'm trying to figure out how I can work within it and, at the same time, counteract the attitude. My boys think that they are big fish because they are the best/brightest in co-op, but they haven't learned that co-op is a very, very small pond!

 

My oldest is finally figuring it out at college. He's had to ramp it up quite a bit. What I'm seeing from him in college is what I was hoping for in co-op. He's competitive enough to want to be the top and now he finally has some really bright competition - and he certainly isn't the top student, but he's striving for it. Why can't we make co-op like that?!?

[Susan C.]

Exactly! I've been wrestling with this thought for the past several years. My boys are decently bright and I hoped that co-op would allow them to experience group projects, a teacher who was passionate about her subject, etc. But what I'm seeing in my own kids is that the "do nothing" attitude is wearing off on them. I don't want that, but I want the advantages of co-op. So I'm trying to figure out how I can work within it and, at the same time, counteract the attitude. My boys think that they are big fish because they are the best/brightest in co-op, but they haven't learned that co-op is a very, very small pond!

 

My oldest is finally figuring it out at college. He's had to ramp it up quite a bit. What I'm seeing from him in college is what I was hoping for in co-op. He's competitive enough to want to be the top and now he finally has some really bright competition - and he certainly isn't the top student, but he's striving for it. Why can't we make co-op like that?!?

 

If you have enough kids to pull from, invite a few good students to your home to do a class with your kids. Invitation only, when others ask, you might be full. :) I am in a smaller town, so getting even two students doing the same thing at the same time is a challenge.

[johnandtinagilbert]

If you have enough kids to pull from, invite a few good students to your home to do a class with your kids. Invitation only, when others ask, you might be full. :) I am in a smaller town, so getting even two students doing the same thing at the same time is a challenge.

Great idea. Invitation:

I enjoyed you and your excellent performance and attitude in class. Will you join me for our next science adventure.

 

If parents ask about no invite -- tell them the truth :)

[Chris in PA]

I have also experienced similar things in a co-op where I teach chemistry and earth science. There are some really great students but also a few bad apples. It is so frustrating when you prep to teach a class and students don't study, don't turn in homework, etc. I always offer to help students outside my classes but rarely have anyone take me up on the offer. I would not offer a make up test. I find the students who would benefit from it won't put the effort in to do well the second time around. I would put the grade on the test: 33/100 = 33% and let it go at that.

[Janet in WA]

 

ALL the 8th and 9th graders passed the course with 4 in the top 5 scores. It seems obvious to me that the older students totally blew off studying. The younger students had 3 exams on the same co-op day (1 in each class).

This is the clincher for me. If ALL of the students had done poorly, or if the older students had done well but the younger had not, I would be tempted to think the failing students might have been at some disadvantage not of their own making, and I'd be looking for ways for them to have a second shot at the test. As it is, I'd be very reluctant to do anything more than let those older students learn a hard lesson at a time in their lives when that lesson doesn't mean college tuition money down the drain.

[NCMom]

If you were the teacher, would you offer a "redeeming" test for those who did so poorly? I hope the parents and the students received a wake-up call and I would love to have the students be successful, but it will be a lot of work for me and I wonder if the students will even bother to study for that.

 

What do you all think?

 

I just had this happen in our co-op class. Same scenario.:glare:

 

I am not offering anything else; my job is done. The other students did very well and the tests make it crystal clear that this is a lack of effort on the part of the student.

 

I would not worry too much about it. These parents know the score whether they admit it or not. It is disheartening though...

 

hth,

Georgia

[TravelingChris]

I am teaching economics this semester. My final will be next Thursday and is an open book/open notes test worth 30% of the grade. I had an at home open book/open note test and one failed, one got a D, one got a C, a few got Bs and a few got As. Why everyone didn't get an A, I don't know. I fully expect at least one student to fail and maybe more. Why? SOme don't do the work. Now I already chose a very readable text and have kept telling the students to call or email if they have any questions or don't understand anything. I have had three out of 11 do that. Can you guess that those are some of the best students?

[Brenda in MA]

My oldest is finally figuring it out at college. He's had to ramp it up quite a bit. What I'm seeing from him in college is what I was hoping for in co-op. He's competitive enough to want to be the top and now he finally has some really bright competition - and he certainly isn't the top student, but he's striving for it. Why can't we make co-op like that?!?

Cynthia,

 

I hear you on this. Out of my local hs group of 70+ families, I think there are 2 or 3 who take academics as seriously as we do. That, and the fact that most families send their teens to high school, makes it very tough to have a meaningful, challenging group class for high school. I've toyed with the idea of teaching a class or two out of my home, but I'm really afraid that it will just lead to a huge amount of frustration because the other students either won't be as prepared as my son or won't be as serious about the course (not that he's brilliant or anything, but he likes to focus on a subject and learn the material).

 

In the fall, I found that I was able to sign him up for the after school math team at the local middle school (he's 8th grade this year). He was able to hold his own there, but there were a couple of other kids who were really quick with math. That was definitely an eye-opener for him, in a good way, that he won't always be the best and the brightest.

 

Over time, I've realized that one of the most important things I want my boys to learn at home is to work hard and make an honest effort at what they do. They may not always be the smartest or best prepared student, but honest effort and hard work will always gain respect and will often times lead to success in their endeavors.

 

Best wishes on whatever you decide for next year. Conversations like this make me really wish that we all lived in the same neighborhood so we could have our kids in classes together. So many of us moms have so many different talents. Imagine what kind of courses we could put together as a group? Dreaming.....:)

 

Brenda

[mjbucks1]

Wow!! I would be really aggrevated with my child if he/she did that poorly in a class. And I would make sure he/she took it over in the summer (with me monitoring it much more closely.) We are responsible for our own children's education. I do not think you should feel like you need to offer a make up exam. Like others have said, they would not be offered this in a traditional high school, let alone college. Look at it this way, you have several students that obviously took the class seriously and did very well!! The grade distribution appears to be a typical "bell curve" at any rate :) I hope the parents are not upset with you.

[4wildberrys]

Well, like a pp said, it sure sounds like the parents of the older kids are just WAY too hands off. In fact, since we don't have any co-op classes here, my view on them might be a bit different than some other homeschoolers: I see them as a way for parents to get a 'break'---and obviously an easy way to disengage for a class that takes effort to teach. So I guess it doesn't surprise me that the older kids are slacking. Maybe the assumption that homeschoolers don't need to study because we are so smart we just absorb information? Yes---I have come across this attitude too and it's kind of embarrassing. Handing over those grades as 'final' sounds like a daunting---but necessary thing for you to do, especially since you had kids who really worked hard for their grades!

 

Is it really expected, though, in these co-op classes that everyone needs to get an A or passing grade? I am asking honestly ;) I guess if it was my child who failed the final, but otherwise had been engaged in class and not disruptive or anything---i really wouldn't expect the teacher to get mad or take it personally, that's all.

[Beth in TN]

I have experienced a similiar situation with a writing class I taught in a co-op. The younger students worked really hard, but the older students didn't. The difference was noticable. They just seemed to do enough to get the assignment done.

 

When I taught a biology in my home same thing a few did all they could to do well including asking me for help and extra studying with each other outside of class. A few never said or did anything even though it was obvious that they were struggling. Their parents didn't seem to care either.

 

This type of apathy is very discouraging for a teacher. I decided not to participate in any co-ops where there is no financial investment by parents (myself included).

[Tullia]

I'd let the test scores stand especially given the better performance of the younger students. One thing to be ready for, though, is the possibility that one or more of these students may eventually ask you for a letter of recommendation. :glare: Different families have different expectations about what they want out of a co-op experience and sometimes it's best to just accept the fact. BTDT! However, that doesn't mean that you are obligated to "rescue" these students. Letting the grade stand would be an appropriate consequence for older students. I could see maybe adjusting for younger, immature students in some circumstances such as if learning/honing study skills was part of the class and the parents were working with you.

 

One question I thought of after posting...do you know why were these older students in the class? Was it a case of parents wanting to outsource for whatever reason, and the students going along more or less unwillingly? I know that as ds got close to graduation it was really difficult for him to follow my house rule: co-op work must be given diligent attention, it must be done as instructed by the teacher, and done in good time. In fact, his senior year he opted out of co-ops because he didn't think he could devote the time it would have taken. I don't know if it's possible to find out before folks enroll in your class and waste their time and yours. Sorry you had this happen, though, because we really appreciated all our co-op teachers!

Edited May 6, 2010 by Martha in NM
thought of another question

[Harriet Vane]

I'd let the grade stand. But then again I'm a hard a**.

 

You did your part - put in time, offered extra credit, etc. Older kids need to learn sooner that poor performance, planning, etc has consequences. I never had a college professor who would have given me a "second" chance.

 

Besides, giving a "redeeming" test who did poorly is unfair to those who took the time and effort to study. To me, it's similar to setting a date for a paper to be complete but then on the day it is due giving extra time to those who did not complete it.

 

:iagree:

 

I have faced similar scenarios before and truly hate it, each time.

 

The most telling situation I had was a Shakespeare intensive I taught. My two learning-disabled students were the ones careful to do every iota of their homework, and the ONLY ones who turned in their final exams. When the parents later requested seminar summaries for their kids' portfolios I refused because the students had not completed the work. The fact that the learning disabled students (who had very genuine needs) powered through it when the others couldn't be bothered was part of what fueled the hard line I chose to draw.

 

Better that the kids learn this life skill NOW than in college. Hold your ground.

[Miss Marple]

do you know why were these older students in the class?

 

Because the students needed a high school level science and this was the best way they could do that. Most of the moms do not feel confident to teach high school level sciences nor do they enjoy the sciences. I do, and that's why I offer them - to meet the need in our area. BUT the irritating thing is that these families have all been in our co-op for years and know how things work. When they started, they signed a statement that they agreed that this was a college prep co-op, as opposed to an enrichment type, and they would supervise the student to make sure he/she was doing the work. Obviously people will sign anything...

[Miss Marple]

Conversations like this make me really wish that we all lived in the same neighborhood so we could have our kids in classes together.

 

Wouldn't that be fabulous!?! I'd love it!

[Miss Marple]

I have to say that it makes me feel just a bit better knowing that we aren't the only co-op with this problem. I was thinking it might be a regional thing, but apparently not. It's just too bad because these kids could be learning so much if the parents would pay more attention. I agree with the poster who said it appears the parents are too hand-off. As much as we would like our teens to be responsible and learn on their own, there are few who can do that - we still have to parent our kids and see that they get the work done. My own boys do a lot of work on their own, but I'm always there checking results, making schedules, and checking to see if they accomplished everything on the schedule.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Because the students needed a high school level science and this was the best way they could do that. Most of the moms do not feel confident to teach high school level sciences nor do they enjoy the sciences. I do, and that's why I offer them - to meet the need in our area. BUT the irritating thing is that these families have all been in our co-op for years and know how things work. When they started, they signed a statement that they agreed that this was a college prep co-op, as opposed to an enrichment type, and they would supervise the student to make sure he/she was doing the work. Obviously people will sign anything...

Jaw dropping. I'd be so personally embarrassed, there is no way I could allow my children to be so disrespectful, particularly after signing....what a bummer.

 

And the WTM Forum co-op....oooohhhhhh aaaaaahhhhh