Revisiting the honors issue--specifically for math

[Jane in NC]

In the LOF Calculus thread (here), Cheryl in SoCal asks a number of questions. Not everyone may be following that thread so I would like to start a new one focusing on one specific question, the use of the term "honors" with respect to Calculus classes.

 

From the top I think that I should mention that I do not use the term "honors" in my home school, but respect the fact that many of you do use the term for courses which you believe contain heavier content than the standard high school course or for courses taken at a CC or university or for non-College Board audited AP courses (AP test taken but syllabus not submitted).

 

Focusing on math: the term "honors" is applied by my local public school system to certain sections of Algebra or Geometry. At my local public school, students who study Calculus are enrolled in AP Calculus. There is no "honors" Calculus.

 

Calculus is understood to be a college level course. "Honors Calculus" to me implies a more theoretical course taken by math majors at the university level. It is proof intensive whereas a standard Calculus course is more procedurally focused.

 

In the aforementioned thread, Cheryl notes that her ISP calls college level courses including those taken at a community college "honors". I'm having trouble with this.

 

Consider Precalculus. This course is studied over a year in high school, a semester in college. Some community colleges (and universities) offer a two semester sequence of College Algebra I & II or College Algebra/Trig which is equivalent to Precalculus. At the risk of sounding snobby, I will note that College Algebra was considered a remedial level course when I attended college. I have never heard of a college offering an "Honors College Algebra" course. So if a college algebra course (which remember is just precalc) appears on a transcript as an "honors" course, what does this mean? "Honors" suggests more work than the basic course. How would College Algebra have more work than a basic precalc course?

 

As I write this, I realize that all terms are relative. I think I can understand the use of the word "Honors" when it implies that more is being accomplished than in the basic course. But for something that is understood to be a college level course, how does the "honors" label work? I guess I am having trouble divorcing the college course from its college content. So "honors" in this situation would imply more than the standard college course to me.

 

Let's help Cheryl with her question. Do you call your Calculus course an "honors" course?

 

Thanks,

The Ever Long Winded Jane

[Halftime Hope]

Do you call your Calculus course an "honors" course?

 

No, in general I didn't designate anything as honors in the course list, but I did in a footnote explaining one of the sources for some of the courses. (Torrey Academy - bona fide high school honors, not college level, coursework.)

 

On my dc's transcript, I listed their college courses by their course designation, e.g., MATH 2445 Calc I, COMS 1301 Intro. to Communication, ART 2301 Oil Painting, etc. so it was obvious that they were dual credit college courses. I did not list them as honors or weight them, and at the top of the transcript I specifically put: GPA X.XX (unweighted).

 

Taken at the CC (or, in our case, the local uni) Calc or Freshman Comp are not honors courses, unless they are the Honors section of Calc or English specifically reserved for Honors College students.

 

For the 'unapproved' AP Psych class at the Potter's School, I simply listed the AP score in the box for academic testing, not making any claims about AP approval for the course.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Valerie(TX)

[8filltheheart]

I didn't designate any courses as honors on oldest ds's transcript and won't on any future ones. The university ds applied to specifically stated on their website that tehy don't accept any weighted grades which is typically the advantage of an honors designation.

 

I did list courses as College Chemistry* (with an key for * indicating that a transcript from X university would be submitted)

 

For my 8th grade ds whose transcript will completely atypical in number of math and science courses, I am going to label them something like AoPS* Algebra 3 indicating Art of Problem Solving or CTY* AP Physics B (for John Hopkins Center for Talented Youth), etc.

 

I assume that admissions officers will infer what they need to out of that type of designation. My personal POV is that a mom-labeled honors title really means very little.

[creekland]

We did not and do not plan to designate anything as Honors. My boys are on a college prep plan. I think colleges will recognize this. Their SAT/ACT and cc scores/grades should stand on their own.

[Heather in VA]

I didn't designate any courses as honors on oldest ds's transcript and won't on any future ones. The university ds applied to specifically stated on their website that tehy don't accept any weighted grades which is typically the advantage of an honors designation.

 

.

 

Honors courses at our public schools are not weighted grades. They are indicators that the class went beyond the standard for that particular class. It replaced the less PC designation of "GT" (which stood for gifted and talented). Only AP classes get extra weight.

 

Heather

[8filltheheart]

Honors courses at our public schools are not weighted grades. They are indicators that the class went beyond the standard for that particular class. It replaced the less PC designation of "GT" (which stood for gifted and talented). Only AP classes get extra weight.

 

Heather

 

I don't weight any courses....college, AP, etc.

 

My understanding is that admissions officers recalculate GPAs based on their own university's policies.

 

Kolbe offers "honors" courses. My kids actually do more than in the Kolbe syllabus for the honors designation (way more in Foersters), but I still don't label it honors. I don't think it means anything if I put it on there.

[Heather in VA]

I don't weight any courses....college, AP, etc.

 

My understanding is that admissions officers recalculate GPAs based on their own university's policies.

 

 

 

I didn't mean to imply that you did. I only said that the idea that the honors designation has a typical advantage of a weighted grade is not the case in our public schools. Not like the AP designation which does carry a weighted grade in the public schools. Our major state universities do not recalculate GPA for students graduating from our county's public schools with the advanced diploma (they may for other counties but I know they do not from here) but they "reserve the right" to for homeschoolers. My guess is they do that if a homeschooler weighted their grades without outside verification. They are really big on outside verification of everything. My oldest will be going to a private Christian school because of her desired path of study so the homeschooler expectations will be different but I have two more after that who may chose a state university. Proving the rigor of their schoolwork to our state schools will be more difficult but I still won't put "honors" on it since they won't look at that anyway. The fact that they want tons of outside verification shows they don't trust Mom anyway.

 

Heather

[Storm Bay]

I'm not going to call anything an honours course, because I don't think that any university/college we apply to is going to give that any merit if it's a course my dc do at home. If I were to get a course officially approved as an AP course, then I would mention that.

 

Our local ps has honours math courses, but all that seems to mean is to do it 1 year earlier than the academic math courses. For English, they have 4 different types, Honours English which implies a LOT more work, reading, etc (I know people with dc in this) Academic English, regular (can't remember the name) and Applied. There are AP courses, too, and one girl who used to swim on my dc's swim team scored a 5 on the AP Calculus exam afeter taking the ps class (she was a ps student) and got credit for the first 3 calc courses at her college (she's a math major.) In our ps, the honours classes are very good, but you only want to be in the honours courses if you are academically oriented because they are by far the best courses offered there.

 

I am going to simply call the courses what they are, and ideally the course descriptions will be read. Those will show what level of work dd was doing better than the course title.

[Gwen in VA]

I specifically state in my school profile that none of the classes are classified as "honors" but they did a dandy job of preparing my kids for AP and college classes. (The phrasing was a bit fancier!)

 

I rely on testing and outside grades to support my case that my kids are well-prepared for college. My kids had many many AP scores and SAT2 scores, and of course they had SAT scores.

 

I provide the course descriptions as a way of showing what we did cover in our classes, but without outside testing I do not expect a college counselor to consider my statements credible. For example, I could point out that my kid wrote an essay per week for my rigorous English class, but that says nothing about the caliber of writing expected.

 

The "proof" of a rigorous homeschool education will necessarily lie outside the home -- community college grades, 4-year college grades, AP scores, SAT2 scores, SAT scores, and grades from outside or online classes. (And for some kids winning writing contests or science contests or........)

[TravelingChris]

I do put honors on math courses if they are done ahead of schedule. I don't care what other homeschool parents do since they are such a small percentage of college applicants. I care what the schools around me do. As it is, I don't think it really matters since both older kids had over a 3.9 uw. Their college test scores were above 90% too. The one who had a college class had an Honors class in which she received an A. My dd, in particular, will only have at most one AP test score before college applications. Why? When she was in 9th grade, she was ill. In 10th grade, we moved to anoth state, and our year was off so no chance for AP test. In 11th, we decided to do only one since she was having a tremendously heavy schedule. She may CLEP some this summer and next Fall and if so, we will put those on the transcript too.

 

My last one is more likely to do AP tests and to have honors math classes. I go by what school districts I have observed do. I am not putting my kids at a disadvantage by homeschooling them. Colleges can weigh, unweigh, count only certain classes, whatever. I am doing what I think is right. Oh, and if someone wants an unweighted transcript, that will take about half an hour to do. I don't do one transcript - I do a main one and then tailor to what an institution wants. SO if it is beneficial at one to put down American Lit and at another to put down English 2, that is how it's done.

[TravelingChris]

Oh, practical examples of honor math classes. My son who was accelerated did Algebra by age 11, and geometry at age 12. Yes, I couted those as honors because he was so far ahead of schedule. I didn't count his ALgebra 2/Trig or Precalc as honors since I didn't consider him to be so far ahead by that time (he took longer with those) and I didn't do any of my dd1's math classes as honors. DD3 may get honors again depending on how fast she works. Certainly Calculus will get honors designation and will get a 1 point weighing if she gets a 4 or 5 on AP. If she goes on to Linear Algebra like I suspect she may, that will also geta an honors.

[Jane in NC]

I do put honors on math courses if they are done ahead of schedule. I don't care what other homeschool parents do since they are such a small percentage of college applicants. I care what the schools around me do. As it is, I don't think it really matters since both older kids had over a 3.9 uw. Their college test scores were above 90% too. The one who had a college class had an Honors class in which she received an A. My dd, in particular, will only have at most one AP test score before college applications. Why? When she was in 9th grade, she was ill. In 10th grade, we moved to anoth state, and our year was off so no chance for AP test. In 11th, we decided to do only one since she was having a tremendously heavy schedule. She may CLEP some this summer and next Fall and if so, we will put those on the transcript too.

 

My last one is more likely to do AP tests and to have honors math classes. I go by what school districts I have observed do. I am not putting my kids at a disadvantage by homeschooling them. Colleges can weigh, unweigh, count only certain classes, whatever. I am doing what I think is right. Oh, and if someone wants an unweighted transcript, that will take about half an hour to do. I don't do one transcript - I do a main one and then tailor to what an institution wants. SO if it is beneficial at one to put down American Lit and at another to put down English 2, that is how it's done.

 

Chris,

 

Do your students take "Honors Calculus"? That was the initial question raised in the other thread. I feel uncomfortable with the label for reasons I stated earlier. I am curious how colleges interpret this label from a transcript.

 

Thanks,

Jane

[Nan in Mass]

At least, I'm pretty sure it was an honours class. There was only one calculus class. If you got through it before senior year, you were sent off to the local college for math. I always assumed they called it honours because it was something the students taking honours math took (the next thing in that track). My pre-calc (which wasn't called pre-calc) was also called honours. I'm pretty sure my algebra 2, which was called honours, wasn't any different from the other algebra 2 classes. It was honours because it was on the calculus-senior-year track. Geometry was different. The whole school took it in 10th grade and my particular class (the "high math class") was told that to make the class honours, we had to do a project. They weren't deep projects, just something extra having to do with math. I made a picture of a distorted coke can which reflected normal in a tube of mylar. Another girl taught the class some chismbop (one of the more useful things I learned in high school LOL). I suspect now that the whole school used the same textbook and the only difference between my class and the others was that the students were more interested and vocal and better at doing their homework communally, and that project.

 

Following that idea, my youngest, who will reach calculus senior year (if he doesn't spend too much time in foreign countries - sigh), should have all his math classes labelled honours. I'm not at all sure I am going to do that, though. I am more inclined to call the content classes (like science) taken at CC honours, and less inclined to call the skills classes honours unless the skill is being taught at a level above the normal high school level, or at a much faster rate. I don't know. We'll see.

 

Precalc1+2 and Intro Chem 1+2 are the reasons I didn't (and won't with the youngest) give double credit for college classes. I gave one year's credit for the one year of pre-calc, and one year's credit for the one year of chem (in spite of the massive amounts of material covered).

 

I'm not planning on giving grades and therefore don't have to worry about weighting them. If I am forced to, I am not going to weight them, anyway, unless the college forcing me to asks me to. I didn't and don't plan on giving double credit for community college classes. I am planning on doing what I did with my older son - calling some (but not all) college classes and classes with extensive travel honours.

 

-Nan

[Jane in NC]

Oh, practical examples of honor math classes. My son who was accelerated did Algebra by age 11, and geometry at age 12. Yes, I couted those as honors because he was so far ahead of schedule. I didn't count his ALgebra 2/Trig or Precalc as honors since I didn't consider him to be so far ahead by that time (he took longer with those) and I didn't do any of my dd1's math classes as honors. DD3 may get honors again depending on how fast she works. Certainly Calculus will get honors designation and will get a 1 point weighing if she gets a 4 or 5 on AP. If she goes on to Linear Algebra like I suspect she may, that will also geta an honors.

 

I think that I finally figured out what is troubling me.

 

Take American Government. There is a basic high school version that many kids take. There is a more in depth version called AP American Government which is equivalent to a college level class. Now if a student took the in depth class but not the AP test, I think I could understand the label "honors". More work was done than in the basic class.

 

But there is no "basic" calculus that is offered in most high schools. It is a college level course, usually designated AP. I see the word "Honors" as a designation that the class is beyond the basic which to me means a proof oriented version of the course. This is my wall that I cannot seem to see around. But this is clearly my perception--not the only one and not necessarily a standard one.

[Nan in Mass]

So it seems like there are several types of honours:

 

Honours because a regular high school class is taken at a younger age

 

Honours because a regular college class is taken while in high school (a variation of the "younger age" rule)

 

Honours because a class is in the honours track, the one taken by honours students (like my own high school "honours" calc class)

 

Honours because a class goes into more depth or covers more ground or contains more papers or projects or labs than the school's other versions of the class (like my own high school geometry class)

 

Honours because a class goes into more depth or covers more ground or contains more papers or projects or labs than the standard version of the class in one's region (more subjective because "standard" varies)

 

Honours because a student's standardized test score in that subject is the same as other honours students nation-wide

 

Honours because a class leads to the AP test but can't be labelled AP unless it is approved by the college board people (a variation of the above)

 

 

Any others?

-Nan

[Jane in NC]

So it seems like there are several types of honours:

 

Honours because a regular high school class is taken at a younger age

 

Honours because a regular college class is taken while in high school (a variation of the "younger age" rule)

 

Honours because a class is in the honours track, the one taken by honours students (like my own high school "honours" calc class)

 

Honours because a class goes into more depth or covers more ground or contains more papers or projects or labs than the school's other versions of the class (like my own high school geometry class)

 

Honours because a class goes into more depth or covers more ground or contains more papers or projects or labs than the standard version of the class in one's region (more subjective because "standard" varies)

 

Honours because a student's standardized test score in that subject is the same as other honours students nation-wide

 

Honours because a class leads to the AP test but can't be labelled AP unless it is approved by the college board people (a variation of the above)

 

 

Any others?

-Nan

 

Thank you for spelling this out. We can now all see why the term "honors" (or "honours" :)) is meaningful to one individual but ambiguous to the next.

[LoriM]

... the use of the term "honors" with respect to Calculus classes.

 

...for courses taken at a CC or university ...

 

 

 

 

Mallory (older dd) took Calculus at home at 15yo as "Intro to Calculus" following her normal high school sequence of math. Then, she began again (as you know) with College Algebra, PreCalculus, Statistics and Calc I at the CC prior to high school graduation. I labeled all four of those courses (taken at the CC, in 16 week semesters) as "Honors" on her transcript, as I did for the other courses she took at the CC.

 

I don't think it made a hill of beans difference in her acceptance to the university of her choice, to her math major or to her life in general. But I do think it accurately reflected the diligence and integrity she displayed in completing 10 math courses between the ages of 14 and 18, and her approach to education at the college level. I also applied "Highest Honors" to her high school diploma. That may just be a gold sticker you order (LOL) but it is meaningful to our home school--it honors the work she accomplished.

 

In the hindsight of her continued excellence at the university level, I don't feel it was unjustified. It just iced the contract she'd fulfilled with her work for high school.

 

I will say this...as you can imagine, I kept making up harder and harder stuff for my kids to do. LOL. One thing that she was required to do as part of her Calculus course at 15 was to write out several proofs, and to write a biography of several mathematicians. So our Intro to Calculus course was writing intensive, yet I didn't make it honors. The "honors" designation for the CC courses was more a reward for the terribly-hard work she'd done to qualify for CC level work at age 16, IMO.

 

In the end, it's more about what will fulfill a sense of accomplishment for your child, and satisfy you when you review the written record of the work they've done. I know that when I read my own transcripts, I am somewhat disappointed by the bland descriptions of courses that I know kicked my butt. :) A "B+" earned in that course was certainly more important than it appears in hindsight.

 

HTH,

 

Lori

[Jane in NC]

Mallory (older dd) took Calculus at home at 15yo as "Intro to Calculus" following her normal high school sequence of math. Then, she began again (as you know) with College Algebra, PreCalculus, Statistics and Calc I at the CC prior to high school graduation. I labeled all four of those courses (taken at the CC, in 16 week semesters) as "Honors" on her transcript, as I did for the other courses she took at the CC.

 

I don't think it made a hill of beans difference in her acceptance to the university of her choice, to her math major or to her life in general. But I do think it accurately reflected the diligence and integrity she displayed in completing 10 math courses between the ages of 14 and 18, and her approach to education at the college level. I also applied "Highest Honors" to her high school diploma. That may just be a gold sticker you order (LOL) but it is meaningful to our home school--it honors the work she accomplished.

 

In the hindsight of her continued excellence at the university level, I don't feel it was unjustified. It just iced the contract she'd fulfilled with her work for high school.

 

I will say this...as you can imagine, I kept making up harder and harder stuff for my kids to do. LOL. One thing that she was required to do as part of her Calculus course at 15 was to write out several proofs, and to write a biography of several mathematicians. So our Intro to Calculus course was writing intensive, yet I didn't make it honors. The "honors" designation for the CC courses was more a reward for the terribly-hard work she'd done to qualify for CC level work at age 16, IMO.

 

In the end, it's more about what will fulfill a sense of accomplishment for your child, and satisfy you when you review the written record of the work they've done. I know that when I read my own transcripts, I am somewhat disappointed by the bland descriptions of courses that I know kicked my butt. :) A "B+" earned in that course was certainly more important than it appears in hindsight.

 

HTH,

 

Lori

 

Thanks for the input, Lori.

 

I think that your post reminds me of the varying purposes of the transcript. Since I am just launching my son from the nest into a liberal arts college in another state, my perspective has been that of college admissions. But the transcript also serves as a record of a student's accomplishments. That "honors" label may mean something to the student or his parent, a written pat on the back for a job well done.

 

Jane

[Heather in VA]

I think that I finally figured out what is troubling me.

 

Take American Government. There is a basic high school version that many kids take. There is a more in depth version called AP American Government which is equivalent to a college level class. Now if a student took the in depth class but not the AP test, I think I could understand the label "honors". More work was done than in the basic class.

 

But there is no "basic" calculus that is offered in most high schools. It is a college level course, usually designated AP. I see the word "Honors" as a designation that the class is beyond the basic which to me means a proof oriented version of the course. This is my wall that I cannot seem to see around. But this is clearly my perception--not the only one and not necessarily a standard one.

 

This is correct. At least in my experience, both as a student and now with my daughter's friends, there is no such thing as a "regular" Calculus class vs. an Honors Calculus class. It used to be, back in the dark ages when I was in school the Calculus class has 3 labels aside from it's name. The AB or BC label which determined the amount of calculus covered, the AP label which indicated that all was done in the name of passing the AP class, and the GT label which indicated that it was available to those permitted to take classes until the Gifted and Talented program. So the class looked something like this: AP GT BC Calculus. Now GT is un-PC. (yikes that's a weird sentence :-) ). So they created honors but it is now only used in our public schools at least for those classes who have a "regular" counterpart. Calculus doesn't. So now the class reads AP BC Calculus (no honors or GT) but it is only open to kids who have been taking the honors versions of math up until then. There is also an IB version called IB BC Calculus - again only open to those taking honors and in the IB program.

 

So to me even our school system has determined that having the word 'honors' on the calculus class is redundant because by nature it is an advanced class that only those kids who are being prepared in the "honors' way would take - so I'm not going to feel the need to stick honors on there either. I also figure that if my student has calculus on her transcript I will not need to put honors on her previous classes either since the advanced nature of her math studies will be apparent by the Calculus class and either the AP/CLEP or whatever we choose to take following it.

 

Heather

[Jane in NC]

AP GT BC Calculus. Now GT is un-PC.

 

 

Are you sure you are not texting us? :lol:

[Cedarmom]

I didn't end up labeling any classes as honors. Calculus he took at the community college. His transcript had a place to mark that. I figured that just the fact that it was labeled as a college class indicated it was an advanced class. For the other classes, I didn't know how impressed the University would be by an honors marking on a homeschool transcript(honors is very subjective) Instead I opted to label his classes clear enough to show he had done advanced work-Great Book of the Ancient WOrld-College Prepatory writing-Physics, etc.

[Nan in Mass]

Yes - although I tried to keep in mind that probably the only outside people actually to use my son's transcript would be colleges, and that they would mostly be using it as a way of comparing apples to oranges (homeschool to school), I was unhappy enough at the whole college application process that I refused to let that keep me from making the transcript be something meaningful to us. I made the transcript reflect who my son is and what he chose to learn. I didn't call his great books English 1, 2, 3, and 4. I tried to make the transcript recognize that he had done something special by taking college classes, even if they were just community college ones, in high school. Labelling some classes honours allowed me to attach a note saying that he had run crowhops from San Francisco to DC and that he has spent 3 months walking through Japan. I suppose I could have attached the notes anyway, but this gave them a purpose. I made the transcript fit on one side of a page, and I tried to lay it out so that the basic info was easily readable with plenty of white space around it, but I put everything - test scores, work experience, sports, hobbies, medals, travel, CC GPA, and so on, on it. In the end, it was a fun snapshot of my son's education.

-nan

[Heather in VA]

Are you sure you are not texting us? :lol:

 

:lol:

 

I know - it's insane isn't it? You think that's bad - spend some time with my daughter's friends who are in the IB program at the local high school. They have IB, pre-IB, pre-IB I, AP/IB, I went cross-eyed just listening to the poor girl talk. Even she didn't know what class she was taking.

 

Heather

[Susan C.]

Here is how it works in SC: Any course taken at a college gets a 5.0 A. If you don't do honors or AP, you will not get ranking for scholarships that SC offers, even if you did more work than those taking classes at the colleges for high school. Students taking courses at the college have GPAs close to 5.0. A friend of mine complained that for every 4.0 A she gives her ds, his GPA drops.

 

For math, the association I am under says for honors you have to do the entire book (and some texts qualify, some don't depending on how rigorous they are). Last year, dd did all of her Algebra 1 book, so it was honors, this year, for geometry, she didn't, so not honors. The public school uses the same book for regular and honors math, but honors moves faster and does more.

 

I think it is ok to weight college classes because they move twice as fast and are more difficult. That way if a good student gets a C, it is really a B, and so forth. IMHO you need to weight the difficult classes, good students don't want to endanger their GPA, so this gives extra incentive to take the harder classes.

 

As far as calculus is concerned, I am pretty sure that if we did it we would get honors because of the level of difficulty and the fact it was done in high school.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Jane, I'm just now seeing this thread and thank you for your help:001_smile: The more I read the more I think "honors" means different things to different people, and may also vary depending on the state. We are associated with a private school and our ISP standards are the same. I will be meeting with the high school administrator and she is the one who decides. I *think* since the course covers "college level" calculus that it would be "honors" but we'll see. I really don't care what any colleges do or think regarding my children's transcripts; I just want to give my children credit for honors level course if/when appropriate.

[Lori D.]

A very general question about "honors" designation and colleges:

 

DO colleges really care or give special consideration to that honors designation?? Especially if there is such a wide divergence among public schools about what honors looks like???

[Nan in Mass]

I have no idea. I had my own reasons (they boiled down to "unusual for high school") for calling some courses honours on the transcript, reasons having nothing to do with colleges. Two colleges and our high school are the only ones who looked at the transcript. The high school doesn't really care. The community college just needed it for their records. And the 4 year college my son applied to as a freshman wasn't interested in anything but his community college transcript and how his brother (at the same college) was doing. That's it. However, it was not a highly selective LAC. They might be different. Don't I keep hearing about scholarship committees that care?

-Nan